Irish Economy Stabilized and highest growth in Europe

Tora Bora

Fianna Fail are bringing the country back to growth ........... there is absolutely no doubt about it. People need to wake up and accept that the goverment is getting the big decisions dead right, and it would be suicidal if the electorate were to vote in the rag bag circus act comprising Gilmore and Kenny.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0707/economy.html


OECD believes economy is stabilising

Wednesday, 7 July 2010 11:53
The Paris-based Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development has said that Ireland's economy is stabilising.
However, the OECD

It has also warned that high unemployment will remain if long-term job seekers are discouraged from getting jobs.
Throughout 2007, 2008 and 2009, the OECD says that the number of hours worked in Ireland fell by 11.8%.
And unlike other European countries, that was almost entirely due to job losses rather than shorter working hours.
The think-tank believes this is due to the relatively low cost of hiring and firing in Ireland and what had been a large concentration of jobs in construction.
The OECD believes our recovery will not be vigorous enough to re-employ the 174,000 people who have lost their jobs.
But as wages fall, there is praise for the reduction in social welfare payments that the OECD says will make it attractive to work.
There was praise too for initiatives to retrain jobseekers, particularly considering so many unemployed construction workers are unlikely to find building jobs again.
Fastest growth in the EU
Meanwhile, other data suggests Ireland has the fastest growing economy in the EU.
New figures from Eurostat, the EU Statistics Agency, show that Ireland's growth rate in the first three months of this year, at 2.7%, was the highest of the 27 countries in the EU.
Sweden was the second highest with a first quarter growth rate of 1.4%, with Portugal in third place with 1.1% growth.
The average growth for the EU and the eurozone in the first quarter was 0.2%. This compares with growth of 0.7% in the US and 1.2% in Japan.
The worst performing countries in the EU are Lithuania, with a growth rate of -3.9%, and Estonia with a growth rate of -2%.
The British economy grew by 0.3%, the German economy grew by 0.2%, while France and Spain grew by 0.1%. Italy recorded growth of 0.4% in the first quarter.

The_Honeybadger

Tora Bora wrote: »

Fastest growth in the EU
Meanwhile, other data suggests Ireland has the fastest growing economy in the EU.
New figures from Eurostat, the EU Statistics Agency, show that Ireland's growth rate in the first three months of this year, at 2.7%, was the highest of the 27 countries in the EU.

Wonderful, lets all go out and buy a house :p

Seriously though, good news i guess, and lets hope it's a sign of things to come. Personally I believe we will have high unemployment for a very long time, partly due to the fact that there is no incentive to work unless you are in the high income bracket, and partly because we will have difficulty creating jobs for ex construction workers who need to be retrained.

Liam Byrne

Tora Bora wrote: »

Fianna Fail are bringing the country back to growth ........... there is absolutely no doubt about it.

There's plenty of doubt about it. Saying otherwise won't change that fact.

Tora Bora wrote: »

People need to wake up and accept that the goverment is getting the big decisions dead right

You mean like NAMA ?

And is there any chance of a link to the source of that article, because there's a big issue with the way that you've edited it:

The Paris-based Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development has said that Ireland's economy is stabilising.
However, the OECD .....

"However the OECD...." what ?

Not only that, but how come you didn't embolden the following sentence :

The OECD believes our recovery will not be vigorous enough to re-employ the 174,000 people who have lost their jobs.

As for "growth", well the last time we had the fastest so-called "growth" we also had sickening inflation and were landed in the crapper, so forgive me if "fastest growth" translates to "unsustainable", as reflected by this article from 2007

The fact that Ireland is a democratic and politically stable state with one of the fastest-growing economies in the world is also a major consideration for companies making significant investment decisions. The 2006 Index of Economic Freedom, compiled by the Wall Street Journal and The Heritage Foundation categorizes Ireland as a “Free Economy” and ranks Ireland third out of 157 countries worldwide.

http://www.european-american-business.com/2007/p_190.php

Remember, this was the view in 2007 - the year before the crash. So "fastest-growing" means diddly-squat.

Cookie_Monster

try and tell all that good news to the 450k on the dole.

dRNk SAnTA

That GDP growth is good news, unfortunately it is driven by a growth in exports by our huge multinationals.The profits they make are mostly repatriated abroad.

The domestic economy, GNP, contracted by 0.5% over the same period.

ei.sdraob

the boom is getting boomier

average_runner

The economy is picking up and jobs are been created, these are the high skill end of jobs such as IT etc.

The high skill end will always pick up and be looked after.

Unfortunately the builders wont be picking up for a long time, we would of always had a high unemployment rate if it was for the building boom, so now we are only going back to where we belong.

A country of high skill jobs.

Nijmegen

Saying that FF has been at the helm while we exit this recession ignores the fact that they were at the helm going into it.

RichardAnd

average_runner wrote: »

The economy is picking up and jobs are been created, these are the high skill end of jobs such as IT etc.

The high skill end will always pick up and be looked after.

Unfortunately the builders wont be picking up for a long time, we would of always had a high unemployment rate if it was for the building boom, so now we are only going back to where we belong.

A country of high skill jobs.

Sadly, this is something I believe to be very true. The only reason we had such high employment during the boom was because construction is a very labour intensive sector. If we had an export boom, it wouldn't generate anything close to the number of jobs a construction boom could.

If I was a builder on the dole I would be out of here. Never mind what people say about getting re-trained, it takes years to reach the level required to work for an IT company in an IT job. You can't learn to play the piano in a few months, the same is true for becoming a computer programmer or likewise.

skelliser

If you keep turning corners you eventually begin to spiral!

danbohan

average_runner wrote: »

The economy is picking up and jobs are been created, these are the high skill end of jobs such as IT etc.

The high skill end will always pick up and be looked after.

Unfortunately the builders wont be picking up for a long time, we would of always had a high unemployment rate if it was for the building boom, so now we are only going back to where we belong.

A country of high skill jobs.

there is a lot countrys aiming at high skill jobs with competive salarys , like china , india , eastern europe , perhaps we may have an edge on very very high end but its questionable and for how long , its certainly not a solution thats going keep unemployment below 400k . a lot of the 450k unemployed are graduates not builders , most builders i know that are out work have gone uk or elsewhere

bobbysands81

Tora Bora wrote: »

Fianna Fail are bringing the country back to growth ........... there is absolutely no doubt about it. People need to wake up and accept that the goverment is getting the big decisions dead right, and it would be suicidal if the electorate were to vote in the rag bag circus act comprising Gilmore and Kenny.

That's three times in the last 6 months that I've heard we've turned the corner. Once more and we're back to where we started.

RichardAnd

Tora Bora wrote: »

Fianna Fail are bringing the country back to growth ........... there is absolutely no doubt about it. People need to wake up and accept that the goverment is getting the big decisions dead right, and it would be suicidal if the electorate were to vote in the rag bag circus act comprising Gilmore and Kenny.

I'm no fan of FF but I have to admit that I would vote for them tomorrow rather than let FG or labour in. When it comes to elections, the choice we must make is, sadly, the least worst option and right now that's FF.

But it all comes down to jobs. People won't start feeling better until that 13.4% starts to drop. Also, for the record, there are not 450k people looking for work because even during the boom we had unemployment of 4.5% on average. It's more like 200 - 250k real job seekers.

20goto10

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

try and tell all that good news to the 450k on the dole.

That's their problem. for the rest of us, life goes on.

MarchDub

Another view of the Irish economy and recovery in today's Wall Street Journal

Quote:

That was the week that was for statistics. They point to an indigenous economy struggling to get back on its feet, a right-of-center Fianna Fail-led government that’s been in power for 15 years and is desperate for a positive diagnosis to boost public morale and get people spending.
This was the slogan for the Fianna Fail party in its 2007 re-election campaign: “A lot done. More to do.” This was before the crash in the property market and the near-implosion of the banking system that’s required billions in recapitalization. Those words take on a new meaning in 2010.

Rewind to 2007. This is what former Prime Minister Bertie Ahern told those naysayers who warned him that the economy was overheating:

“Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don’t know how people who engage in that don’t commit suicide…”

He apologized afterward for his remarks and, when he resigned in 2008 after 11 years in power amid a scandal over his own personal finances rather than those of the country’s, then-Finance Minister Brian Cowen, who took over as prime minister, stood solemnly by his side.

Both prime minister and finance minister played a part in the country’s downfall. But Ahern’s remarks gave an insight into a government that believed itself to be invincible. Ireland was riding high on a boom helped by weak regulation and banks recklessly lending billions of euros to developers.
Here’s a report that the government isn’t shouting about: According to Insolvency.Journal.ie almost 800 companies in Ireland went out of business in the first six months of 2010, up 27% on the same period a year ago. One in three of those companies were in construction.

Imagine Ireland was the patient and the Fianna Fail-led government the doctor. The same doctor that made the patient gravely ill is now trying to make him feel better. Here’s a more appropriate slogan for the next general election: “A lot of damage done, more resuscitation to do.”




http://blogs.wsj.com/source/2010/07/05/the-irish-economy-is-still-on-life-support/

average_runner

To be honest we wont lower our unemployment much but alot of companies i know of cant get the staff they need, IT is very short on staff and the grads that are out there are looking for stupid money, ie what an experience person is on.

So grads need to wake up.


Also a friend of mine open up a few new businesses in a franchise and cant get the staff and this is not a real skill end he is looking at.

Liam Byrne

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm no fan of FF but I have to admit that I would vote for them tomorrow rather than let FG or labour in. When it comes to elections, the choice we must make is, sadly, the least worst option and right now that's FF.

I honestly, hand on heart, have absolutely no idea how anyone could draw that conclusion.

The blinkered and die-hard / staunch supporters, fair enough....they're never going to contemplate voting differently, and there's no point even discussing the topic with them.

But I'd be curious as to why you think the above; maybe we could start a separate thread ?

average_runner

I am the same, dont want to vote FF but they are less the evil than FG and Labour.

danbohan

20goto10 wrote: »

That's their problem. for the rest of us, life goes on.

might be your problem when you hit 55% income tax to pay for the party !

Jaysoose

Tora Bora wrote: »

Fianna Fail are bringing the country back to growth ........... there is absolutely no doubt about it. People need to wake up and accept that the goverment is getting the big decisions dead right, and it would be suicidal if the electorate were to vote in the rag bag circus act comprising Gilmore and Kenny.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0707/economy.html


OECD believes economy is stabilising

Wednesday, 7 July 2010 11:53
The Paris-based Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development has said that Ireland's economy is stabilising.
However, the OECD

It has also warned that high unemployment will remain if long-term job seekers are discouraged from getting jobs.
Throughout 2007, 2008 and 2009, the OECD says that the number of hours worked in Ireland fell by 11.8%.
And unlike other European countries, that was almost entirely due to job losses rather than shorter working hours.
The think-tank believes this is due to the relatively low cost of hiring and firing in Ireland and what had been a large concentration of jobs in construction.
The OECD believes our recovery will not be vigorous enough to re-employ the 174,000 people who have lost their jobs.
But as wages fall, there is praise for the reduction in social welfare payments that the OECD says will make it attractive to work.
There was praise too for initiatives to retrain jobseekers, particularly considering so many unemployed construction workers are unlikely to find building jobs again.
Fastest growth in the EU
Meanwhile, other data suggests Ireland has the fastest growing economy in the EU.
New figures from Eurostat, the EU Statistics Agency, show that Ireland's growth rate in the first three months of this year, at 2.7%, was the highest of the 27 countries in the EU.
Sweden was the second highest with a first quarter growth rate of 1.4%, with Portugal in third place with 1.1% growth.
The average growth for the EU and the eurozone in the first quarter was 0.2%. This compares with growth of 0.7% in the US and 1.2% in Japan.
The worst performing countries in the EU are Lithuania, with a growth rate of -3.9%, and Estonia with a growth rate of -2%.
The British economy grew by 0.3%, the German economy grew by 0.2%, while France and Spain grew by 0.1%. Italy recorded growth of 0.4% in the first quarter.

You SPIN me right round round like a record baby.....

RichardAnd

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I honestly, hand on heart, have absolutely no idea how anyone could draw that conclusion.

The blinkered and die-hard / staunch supporters, fair enough....they're never going to contemplate voting differently, and there's no point even discussing the topic with them.

But I'd be curious as to why you think the above; maybe we could start a separate thread ?

My reasons are simple. With FG, you have a party that isn't even secure in opposition and the recent fiasco with Enda's leadership proves that. Labour will form a socialist government and I don't care what their policies are, I don't want socialists in government.

For me, FF just seem to be the best of a bad bunch

blue_steel

RichardAnd wrote: »

My reasons are simple. With FG, you have a party that isn't even secure in opposition and the recent fiasco with Enda's leadership proves that. Labour will form a socialist government and I don't care what their policies are, I don't want socialists in government.

For me, FF just seem to be the best of a bad bunch

FF have presided over the economic destruction of this state with the sole aim of enriching themselves and their friends. How in the name of whatever it is you believe in would you vote them back in? Even if you personally are doing ok have you no empathy for your fellow citizens who aren't? However you feel about Lab / FG it is NOT possible for them to mess things up more than the oligarchy currently in power :mad:

RichardAnd

blue_steel wrote: »

FF have presided over the economic destruction of this state with the sole aim of enriching themselves and their friends. How in the name of whatever it is you believe in would you vote them back in? Even if you personally are doing ok have you no empathy for your fellow citizens who aren't? However you feel about Lab / FG it is NOT possible for them to mess things up more than the oligarchy currently in power :mad:

I am willing to debate with you but I would appreciate if you didn't make assumptions about me such as this:

"Even if you personally are doing ok have you no empathy for your fellow citizens who aren't?"

Just so you know, yes I am doing fine but I also do have empathy for those who are not so fortunate as me.

You are correct that FF abused their positions and rode the boom rather than stemming it like they should have done but do not forget that they were voted into power because of that. FG would have done the exact same things as FF and god only knows what damage a socialist government loose with a fat wallet would do.

FF have done wrong, no argument about it but the notion that they can do no right is flawed. NAMA, bailouts and all the rest are not what I would like to have seen happen but I am of the opinion that Ireland is recovering and I believe that this is due in part to what FF have done. I am not a support of the party and I would happily vote against then IF I was was given a viable option.

The idea that one should vote against FF simply because they think the other side could be no worst is absurd. My decision to vote FF, and it may change, has been made after careful analysis of the facts from a variety of sources. When you go to the polls, I hope that you make your decision in the same way and if we disagree, then I shall respect your views.

blue_steel

RichardAnd wrote: »

I am willing to debate with you but I would appreciate if you didn't make assumptions about me such as this:

"Even if you personally are doing ok have you no empathy for your fellow citizens who aren't?"

Just so you know, yes I am doing fine but I also do have empathy for those who are not so fortunate as me.

You are correct that FF abused their positions and rode the boom rather than stemming it like they should have done but do not forget that they were voted into power because of that. FG would have done the exact same things as FF and god only knows what damage a socialist government loose with a fat wallet would do.

FF have done wrong, no argument about it but the notion that they can do no right is flawed. NAMA, bailouts and all the rest are not what I would like to have seen happen but I am of the opinion that Ireland is recovering and I believe that this is due in part to what FF have done. I am not a support of the party and I would happily vote against then IF I was was given a viable option.

The idea that one should vote against FF simply because they think the other side could be no worst is absurd. My decision to vote FF, and it may change, has been made after careful analysis of the facts from a variety of sources. When you go to the polls, I hope that you make your decision in the same way and if we disagree, then I shall respect your views.

To vote for "anyone but" FF is no more absurd than to vote for them because the alternative is so bad which is what you originally said. And your fear of a socialist government is laughable. Every civilised country in Europe alternates between a centre right and a centre left government and most of them are doing better than us. Do you think it's a coincidence that our choice is between FF and FG who are, as George Galloway put it, two cheeks of the same arse? Our civil war politics is the main problem with the system in this country. We desperately need a left wing alternative to the FF/FG axis of banality.
And your personal situation has everything to do with it. Your viewpoint is obviously less valid if you are someone who benefits directly from FFs policies. I'm not saying you are btw. I have no problem telling you I'm doing ok too but there is more to life than money. I have never and will never vote for FF (no matter how much their policies might personally benefit me) because they are nothing more than self-serving nose-in-the-trough criminals.

Liam Byrne

RichardAnd wrote: »

FF have done wrong, no argument about it but the notion that they can do no right is flawed. NAMA, bailouts and all the rest are not what I would like to have seen happen but I am of the opinion that Ireland is recovering and I believe that this is due in part to what FF have done. I am not a support of the party and I would happily vote against then IF I was was given a viable option.

So you're happy to completely overlook the fact that Ireland wouldn't have needed to recover were it not for in part what FF have done ?

If someone digs a hole then they'll get no credit from me for filling it back in.

And considering that their method for filling it in involves crippling the country with lies and further incompetence, then they simply deserve more abuse - definitely not praise or reward.

amacachi

While there are still FÁS (paid for by the stupid ****ing state) courses for schoolleavers in Bricklaying at the same time as the country having 300,000 too many houses and 150,000+ builders out of work, it's going to be very hard for the unemployment rate to fall to where it was.

Still, seeing exports rise is never a bad thing.

Tora Bora

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So you're happy to completely overlook the fact that Ireland wouldn't have needed to recover were it not for in part what FF have done ?.

Look, no question FF fiddled while the system began to list and sink.
BUT, think back to the last election campaign ............ do you recall the opposition parties promise to outdo FF in every possible "spend" area possible in the economy :mad:
Way I see it, is we now have Lenny in finance ............ better him than ANYBODY else. If Gilmores popularity stays where it is we could have Joan Burton in finance ................. holy moley ................

Jaysoose

Tora Bora wrote: »

Look, no question FF fiddled while the system began to list and sink.
BUT, think back to the last election campaign ............ do you recall the opposition parties promise to outdo FF in every possible "spend" area possible in the economy :mad:
Way I see it, is we now have Lenny in finance ............ better him than ANYBODY else. If Gilmores popularity stays where it is we could have Joan Burton in finance ................. holy moley ................

This is the same Lenny that was in charge of coming up with the numbers for the haircuts for NAMA that were completely incorrect and not reflective of the true market value of the assets being brought into the scheme. The man has not filled me with confidence and if he is the best FF have got then we are all f*cked.

Can somebody explain to me who we have magically started to recover when nothing has been done? As far as i can see the expenditure far outstrips the income for this little country of ours so how in gods name are we recovering....we are still borrowing hundreds of millions EVERY week to keep this sorry mess going.

Citizen_Cutback

RichardAnd wrote: »

FF have done wrong, no argument about it but the notion that they can do no right is flawed. NAMA, bailouts and all the rest are not what I would like to have seen happen but I am of the opinion that Ireland is recovering and I believe that this is due in part to what FF have done. I am not a support of the party and I would happily vote against then IF I was was given a viable option.

The idea that one should vote against FF simply because they think the other side could be no worst is absurd. My decision to vote FF, and it may change, has been made after careful analysis of the facts from a variety of sources. When you go to the polls, I hope that you make your decision in the same way and if we disagree, then I shall respect your views.

Did you ever vote other than for Fianna Fail? It seems unlikely to me.

RichardAnd

Ok, I'm going to set down the reasons for my opinions and then I shall leave it at that. If someone still disagrees with me afterwards then I will respect their views, please do the same for me.

First of all, I am not a FF supporter. Indeed, I am not a supporter of any political party as I make up my mind on issues by myself, not on the basis of what a party manifesto. Also, I did not claim I WILL vote FF, I simply stated that I will vote for them if I do not see an viable alternative.

First of all, the choice in the next election are really FF, FG and labour. Sure, there are the Greens and the quack parties but let's be realistic, It's down to the big three.

FG, I am ambivalent about. I have read their intentions and whilst alot of them are hot air, some do make sense which may, yet, convince me to vote for them. What puts me off, however, is that FG are as an above poster so poetically put it "the other cheek of the same arse". Be under no illusion that FG would have done what FF did had they been in power.

Then, we have Labour. Someone above called my fear of socialism laughable well in a recent thread I started, I raised these fears and I was most certainly not the only one who held them. A link to the thread is below:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055937331

My issue with socialism is that it does not have a historical record of succeeding. We need only look at Greece to see the damage socialist rule can cause which is summed up very well my Mrs Tatcher: "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money".

I dont' hold my self to any of the "isms" but if I choose one it would be capitalism. The reason is that it is the most natural way humans will interact and it rewards intelligence and punishes mistakes. Or at least, it should.

So then we have FF. I think little of them and there are plenty of things I would like to see them do differently. However, they are at least trying to make cuts and that is precisely what's needed. Ireland, I think, is on track to recovery and my fear is that some other government could derail this with populist policies.

I also would like to say that I am fully aware that many problems we have are as a result of FF but I will not throw my vote away simply as a protest. This opinion is the result of research and careful deduction over FACTS but it is my opinion and if anyone wishes to berate me for it then I would appreciate if assumptions are not made about my personal circumstances which, I will admit, are perfectly fine and that has nothing to do with FF either way.

blue_steel

RichardAnd wrote: »

My issue with socialism is that it does not have a historical record of succeeding. We need only look at Greece to see the damage socialist rule can cause which is summed up very well my Mrs Tatcher: "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money".

I dont' hold my self to any of the "isms" but if I choose one it would be capitalism. The reason is that it is the most natural way humans will interact and it rewards intelligence and punishes mistakes. Or at least, it should.

You could just as easily say one need only look at Ireland to see the dangers of capitalist rule.

Forget about Greece for once. What about Germany? It has had a socialist government 29 out of the last 40 years and they are constantly held up here as an example of good government. How does this fact reconcile itself with your view of the left?

If capitalists played by their own rules I wouldn't mind so much. But every time it goes belly up (as it invariably does) they suddenly approve of government intervention and form an orderly line to receive their taxpayer handouts.

Citizen_Cutback

RichardAnd wrote: »

Be under no illusion that FG would have done what FF did had they been in power.

How do you know this?

Would Fine Gael and Labour have hosted tents at the Galway Races so that the could fund-raise and interact with Builders?

Would the leaders of Fine Gael and Labour in Government place "sure-bets" and keep the proceeds in a safe?

Would Seanie Fitz and Seanie Quinn have got carried with themselves because of a "special" relationship between themselves and a FG/Labour Government?

RichardAnd

blue_steel wrote: »

Forget about Greece for once. What about Germany? It has had a socialist government 29 out of the last 40 years and they are constantly held up here as an example of good government. How does this fact reconcile itself with your view of the left?

Capitalism has dangers, certainly. Just because socialism worked for the Germans does not mean it will work here. You can not compare us to Germany, we are a of a totally different culture and ethic.

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

How do you know this?

Would Fine Gael and Labour have hosted tents at the Galway Races so that the could fund-raise and interact with Builders?

Would the leaders of Fine Gael and Labour in Government place "sure-bets" and keep the proceeds in a safe?

Would Seanie Fitz and Seanie Quinn have got carried with themselves because of a "special" relationship between themselves and a FG/Labour Government?

FG fought the 2007 general election by promising 2000 extra guards and teachers in addition to free laptops for every child in secondary school. They would have done what any politician would have done, given the people what they want in order to stay in office and the Irish don't know what's good for them.

Gentlemen, debate over my posts if you wish but as I said, I am done. I respect that you think I'm wrong and that's perfectly fine as if your opinions are the result of your own reasoning then I salute you both for having that reason.

blue_steel

RichardAnd wrote: »

Just because socialism worked for the Germans does not mean it will work here. You can not compare us to Germany, we are a of a totally different culture and ethic.

Just a final word to say I agree with you there. It isn't the ism its who's implementing it and I'm afraid we're just not very good at implementation.
However seeing as we've never had a left wing government in Ireland there is no way anyone could know how good or bad it would be.

Citizen_Cutback

RichardAnd wrote: »

FG fought the 2007 general election by promising 2000 extra guards and teachers in addition to free laptops for every child in secondary school. They would have done what any politician would have done, given the people what they want in order to stay in office and the Irish don't know what's good for them.

Gentlemen, debate over my posts if you wish but as I said, I am done. I respect that you think I'm wrong and that's perfectly fine as if your opinions are the result of your own reasoning then I salute you both for having that reason.

What you fail to mention is that Fianna Fail have been in power since 1997.

In 1997 Fianna Fail got into power with the connivance of Sir Tony Baloney and his "It's Payback Time" front page headline. Then there were some Stamp Duty changes that may have favoured a member of the Oireachtas, his wife and her lover. It may seem that one of these individuals continues to have a pro FF media stance.

In 2007 extra Guards and Teachers were probably justifiable on the basis of the projected growth in the Economy. The opposition were making promises based on Dept. of Finance projections for continued robust revenue growth.

I think I know which news group you are subscribed to.

pablo_escobar

The growth is largely the result of heavy government subsidies.

Those familiar with the Back To Work allowance scheme will remember that if you qualified, you could receive part of your benefits for up to 3 years.

In the Supplementary Budget April 2009 it was announced that the Back to Work Allowance scheme is closed to new applicants from 1 May 2009.

link

Now.. instead of the employee getting the benefits, the employer gets this money through the Employment subsidy scheme.

There is also the Employer Job (PRSI) Incentive Scheme

These subsidies will buy the country 3-4 years of employment for those mainly in the IT and manufacturing sectors.

Then what? do we finally face up to the fact this government are flushing ireland down the toilet?

Head The Wall

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

I think I know which news group you are subscribed to.

It bugs the crap out of me when certain posters assume that just because you think a certain way or make a particular statement that you read a certain paper.

There is absolutely no logic or thought put into this and frankly makes anyone that states it look stupid in my eyes (and others eyes also) because unless you know the person and what they read you haven't got a clue.

Stop making yourself look like a fool with the indo etc references

Citizen_Cutback

Head The Wall wrote: »

It bugs the crap out of me when certain posters assume that just because you think a certain way or make a particular statement that you read a certain paper.

There is absolutely no logic or thought put into this and frankly makes anyone that states it look stupid in my eyes (and others eyes also) because unless you know the person and what they read you haven't got a clue.

Stop making yourself look like a fool with the indo etc references

I know who I am. I am quite happy to be considered a fool if it makes you happy.

You can call me anything you like if it stops you banging your head off the wall.;)

johnnyskeleton

RichardAnd wrote: »

Capitalism has dangers, certainly. Just because socialism worked for the Germans does not mean it will work here. You can not compare us to Germany, we are a of a totally different culture and ethic.

Wait, we can compare Ireland with Greece to see the dangers of socialism, but we can't compare Ireland with Germany or Scandanavian countries to see how it can work reasonably well?

If anything, surely Ireland's Northern European neighbours are a better comparison than a South-Eastern European Country?

ei.sdraob

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If anything, surely Ireland's Northern European neighbours are a better comparison than a South-Eastern European Country?

your are only fooling yourself if you think Ireland is a better comparison to the northern European states

jmayo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

your are only fooling yourself if you think Ireland is a better comparison to the northern European states

I believe johnnyskelton means that we should compare ourselves to the the Northern European Scandanavian states because they are comparable in population, often don't have the resources and yet they can make a go of socialism unlike Greece.

It is a better comparison although we come out of it worse.

It may be the old argument of why compare ourselves favourably to the worse rather than unfavourably to the best ?

RichardAnd

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Wait, we can compare Ireland with Greece to see the dangers of socialism, but we can't compare Ireland with Germany or Scandanavian countries to see how it can work reasonably well?

If anything, surely Ireland's Northern European neighbours are a better comparison than a South-Eastern European Country?

I know I said I was done but I have to answer this one.


Germans: A people with a reputation for efficiently who do things right the first time. The tend to be honest, hardworking and professional.

Greeks: A basket case country filled with lazy people unwilling to accept responsibility for their own problems.


Now then, which of these sounds more like Ireland?

Liam Byrne

RichardAnd wrote: »

lazy people unwilling to accept responsibility

Which of those sounds like someone you said you'd consider voting for ?

johnnyskeleton

RichardAnd wrote: »

I know I said I was done but I have to answer this one.


Germans: A people with a reputation for efficiently who do things right the first time. The tend to be honest, hardworking and professional.

Greeks: A basket case country filled with lazy people unwilling to accept responsibility for their own problems.


Now then, which of these sounds more like Ireland?

Doesn't matter.

You used the similiarities between ourselves and the Greeks to further your argument that socialism is bad. But when confronted with a country where socialism is not bad you discounted it out of hand.

The problem you have is with us being like the Greeks, not like the Germans. But to attribute this to Greek Socialism is a logical nonsense.

It's kinda like this:

I am like Joe. He likes going to the pub but drinks too much.

I am not like Dave. He also likes going to the pub but drinks moderately.

Logically, the solution to this problem is to try to be more like Dave and try to drink more sensibly. But you are saying that we should only compare ourselves to Joe, ignore Dave, and stop going to the pub because that is the root of drinking too much.

johnnyskeleton

ei.sdraob wrote: »

your are only fooling yourself if you think Ireland is a better comparison to the northern European states

It is fairly standard internationally to compare yourself to your neighbours first. Hence USA will often be compared with Mexico and Canada (or rather, Mexico will compare themselves with the US rather than say Brazil, and Canada will compare themselves with the US rather than a European Country), even though these are completely different types of economy.

Similiarly, China and Japan will compare themselves to each other.

To compare yourself with a country that has similar problems is a bit of a nonsense because it will only reinforce the problems without giving any idea as to what the solution should be.

blue_steel

RichardAnd wrote: »

I know I said I was done but I have to answer this one.


Germans: A people with a reputation for efficiently who do things right the first time. The tend to be honest, hardworking and professional.

Greeks: A basket case country filled with lazy people unwilling to accept responsibility for their own problems.


Now then, which of these sounds more like Ireland?

This is really rubbishing your own argument. What you are saying is the problem isn't socialism it's the Irish. And if that's the case we're fecked whatever system we choose.
There isn't anything endemically wrong with us apart from the usual post colonial distrust of state and corruption issues. The Germans have never been occupied by a foreign power for hundreds of years. And they also got a massive financial hand out after world war 2. They should be reminded of this when they start whining about bailing out Greece.

Sand

The Germans have never been occupied by a foreign power for hundreds of years.

ORLY?

Economic blockade throughout WW1 which induced starvation in Germany? Versailles Treaty which involved occupation of economic strongholds by the French and annexation of German peopled territories to hostile nationalistic states? Mass reparations? Hyperinflation? The mass devastation of WW2? Occupation by the Soviet Union? Forcible deindustrialisation by the Allies in the immediate aftermath, a policy only reversed with the onset of the Cold War. Obliged to carry Europe economically via transfers of wealth to various peripheral states.

Meanwhile, Ireland still giving out about 1169, making excuses and feeling sorry for ourselves.

Theres a reason the Germans are an economic powerhouse despite their country being levelled to the ground in the 1940s and carved up by Soviet occupation.

blue_steel

Sand wrote: »

Economic blockade throughout WW1 which induced starvation in Germany.

Give me a break. Did one million people die of this induced starvation?

The mass devastation of WW2? Occupation by the Soviet Union? Forcible deindustrialisation by the Allies in the immediate aftermath, a policy only reversed with the onset of the Cold War. Obliged to carry Europe economically via transfers of wealth to various peripheral states.

Are you seriously looking for sympathy for what happened to Germany as a result of WW2? Good luck. They started a war that resulted in the death of 50 million people. Not to mention committing the most heinous crimes against humanity ever seen. They were forced to de-industrialise? Boo hoo.

Meanwhile, Ireland still giving out about 1169, making excuses and feeling sorry for ourselves.

Try 1845. We have an obligation to remember what happened so it isn't repeated. Do you think holocaust memorials are Jewish people feeling sorry for themselves as well?

Theres a reason the Germans are an economic powerhouse despite their country being levelled to the ground in the 1940s and carved up by Soviet occupation.

Yes they are a very industrious and resourceful people alright.
Listen the Germans kept eurozone interest rates low because it suited their economy. They didn't give a damn that low interest rates were a disaster for booming economies like ourselves and Spain. And if the German economy starts flying you can bet they'll increase rates and won't give a damn what effect if has on the rest of us.

Sand

Give me a break. Did one million people die of this induced starvation?

Close enough - The Germans themselves estimated 763,000 died due to starvation induced by the blockade, I have seen other figures of roughly 500,000. Either way, several hundred thousand. In Bohemia, February 1919, 20% of babies were born dead, another 40% died within one month. The Allies maintained their naval blockade on food and medical supplies *after* the Germans had signed the armstrice - The Germans asked for the blockade to be relaxed to allow medical supplies and food to get through. This was refused.

Are you seriously looking for sympathy for what happened to Germany as a result of WW2? Good luck. They started a war that resulted in the death of 50 million people. Not to mention committing the most heinous crimes against humanity ever seen. They were forced to de-industrialise? Boo hoo.

Im pointing out the level of economic destruction, looting and deliberate hamstringing of their economic capacity, mass refugees flows from former German territories in the east, and East Germany occupied by the Soviets from where they picked themselves up only 60 years ago and developed to the point where they are now carrying almost the entire continent via transfers of wealth.

Feel free to whinge about 1845/1169 or whatever. Ireland has had a relatively peaceful time in the 20th century, plenty of time to build our own economic success story. Instead we have spent it navel gazing and feeling sorry for ourselves, blaming it on the British.

Try 1845. We have an obligation to remember what happened so it isn't repeated. Do you think holocaust memorials are Jewish people feeling sorry for themselves as well?

Do you think the famine is comparable with the holocaust? Seriously?

Yes they are a very industrious and resourceful people alright.

Yes, they seem to pick themselves up, stop feeling sorry for themselves and get on with it. Lessons to be learned maybe.

Listen the Germans kept eurozone interest rates low because it suited their economy. They didn't give a damn that low interest rates were a disaster for booming economies like ourselves and Spain.

I dont recall ourselves or Spain complaining about low interest rates when we were grabbing all those sweet, sweet Euros. Both ourselves and Spain and other peripheral states had fiscal policies open to us suitable for a low interest rate enviroment. We ignored them and instead threw petrol on the fire. Indeed the EU/German warned us we were revving things up, and we were outraged they had the cheek to talk to us like that. We are not children, are we?

Ireland needs to stop feeling sorry for itself and stop transferring responsibility for its fiscal mismanagement to the EU/Germany. Either we are are nation of adults, or we are children looking for parents.

blue_steel

Who is feeling sorry for themselves? Who is navel gazing and blaming the British? Not me or anybody I know. These generalisations about our national mentality are way off the mark. Everyone I know is working hard and trying to provide for their families. No time for any of that.
I'm not blaming the Germans for what happened to Ireland. Yeah our government could have legislated to compensate for low interest rates but they were stupid and incomptent and looked after themselves and their "wealth creator" friends. My point is that Germany does what is in Germanys interest, nobody elses. If they have propped up poorly run states in Europe it's only because a peaceful Europe is good for business.

oppenheimer1

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

How do you know this?

Would Fine Gael and Labour have hosted tents at the Galway Races so that the could fund-raise and interact with Builders?

Would the leaders of Fine Gael and Labour in Government place "sure-bets" and keep the proceeds in a safe?

Would Seanie Fitz and Seanie Quinn have got carried with themselves because of a "special" relationship between themselves and a FG/Labour Government?

FG controlled many of the councils, which in turn made ridiculous rezoning decisions. Its too simplistic to blame FF solely because the opposition had their arm on the lever of supply of land in many cases.