The Illusion of Privacy/Anonymity on Boards: Suggestion and Question

vodafoneproblem

Thread inspired by reading this thread, the privacy policy, Personal Issues Forum, comments like this and this (among others), and how easy Rereg's trying to evade bans are caught on boards.ie

Suggestion: I think it should be made clear on all forums like PI that allow anonymous posting, that you're probably not anonymous to the admins here, if you're using the same computer you normally do.

People post some pretty serious problems at times, but I wonder would they think twice if they knew they could potentially be identified easily by some people here? A line from the privacy policy should give everyone pause for thought. In addition to Google analytics boards.ie also stores full web logs for analysis purposes. The stuff google analytics tracks is scary enough, without even considering what extra information web logs give! I think if I'd ever posted a personal issue and then discovered this information after, I'd be slightly freaked out!

Question: In the privacy policy it states

"You have a right to be given a copy of your personal data which you may have supplied via this website. To exercise this right e-mail us at hello@boards.ie.

You should include any personal identifiers which you supplied earlier via the website (e.g. username & e-mail address) if you do not supply this verification information, no information will be provided.

This request only covers the private information contained in your private profile. Any information that is publically available in posts and threads on the forum will not be provided. Your request will be dealt with as soon as possible and will take not more than 40 days to process. "

so I'm curious as to exactly what private information is being referred to here. Is it all the google analytics and web log stuff or is there more/less to it than that?

Nevyn

the PI mods and those who mod forums where anon posting is possible respect the privacy of those who post but we can check when we think someone is trolling or abusing the anon posting function and people have been banned for doing so.

Overheal

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

People post some pretty serious problems at times, but I wonder would they think twice if they knew they could potentially be identified easily by some people here?

Identifiable to whom?

Mod thinks you're trolling PI > will check the IP that the post was made at > gets a match with your account on the same IP > Oh, its Vodafoneproblem, and his PI is XYZ

Now, who the hell is vodafoneproblem??

Thats kinda where the trail stops.

Dav

The bottom line is if you post *anything* on the internet, you can be traced. If you post on the internet and don't know this, then there's not a whole lot we can do to help. There is no such thing as anonymity, just varying degrees of difficulty in tracking you down. This is as true for Boards.ie as it is for Twitter or Face Book etc.

Part of the trust we put in the mods where anon posting is allowed is that they won't reveal who someone who has decided to post unregistered is. Should they do so, they will find themselves removed from this site quick-sharp.

Private information held is exactly as the snippet you've quoted says - the information you supply to us in your account profile. IP Addresses are considered "confidential" by us, but under current Irish law, not private. We use IP addresses to perform moderation level checks on people, but the actual address is never revealed to the mods. Your posts are public domain, so are not covered by this.

Have you ever seen a weblog? Every website stores them. It's a mass of raw text that usually requires specialist tools to analyse (but if you know what you're looking for, you'll be able to follow it). You can extrapolate things like where people go through the site and establish their browsing habits. We don't do this.

I hope that clarifies.

vodafoneproblem

Thaedydal wrote: »

the PI mods and those who mod forums where anon posting is possible respect the privacy of those who post but we can check when we think someone is trolling or abusing the anon posting function and people have been banned for doing so.

Ok, but I was looking at it from the point of view of a person trying to post a problem as anonymously as they can, not someone causing grief.

Nevyn

If someone is posting anon and it is above board then we would not have reason to check,
if we stumble upon the fact that user Z posted anon as X and has an issue with his gf
we respect the privacy of the anon function and won't mention it. Honestly none of the PI mods are interested in digging through peoples posts for gossip, it's one of the critea for becoming a pi mod and being trusted.

Now if someone is posting anon and then replying to themselves on the thread acting the maggot or bumping the thread and we cop it they will get a pm telling them to cop on, esp as it will often out them as the anon OP due to the people being able to comparing the posting styles.

If a person really really wants to leave no trace when posting anon, then they are best to go to a net cafe which they have never used before and post there.

vodafoneproblem

Dav wrote: »

Private information held is exactly as the snippet you've quoted says - the information you supply to us in your account profile. IP Addresses are considered "confidential" by us, but under current Irish law, not private. We use IP addresses to perform moderation level checks on people, but the actual address is never revealed to the mods. Your posts are public domain, so are not covered by this.

Have you ever seen a weblog? Every website stores them. It's a mass of raw text that usually requires specialist tools to analyse (but if you know what you're looking for, you'll be able to follow it). You can extrapolate things like where people go through the site and establish their browsing habits. We don't do this.

I hope that clarifies.

It's still not clear to me as to what you'd get back in a privacy information request. Do you get the google analytics stuff and web logs etc or not? From that GA link:

Google Analytics automatically tracks a number of statistics about the browser capabilities of visitors to your site:

Browser type
Operating system
Browser-operating system combined metric
Screen Colors
Screen Resolution
Flash Versions
Java Support
You can use a number of methods to enable or disable client detection, including Flash, general browser capabilities, or Flash player capabilities. You can also verify whether this detection is enabled for your site. See the GATC Web Client method reference for details.

Would you get all this info back on a privacy request, and also the web logs, or just your IP address?

Also, on the subject of IP addresses, I'm sure you're well aware that some of the ISP's only have a small amount of IP addresses which they dish out to 100's of 1000's of users through proxy servers, or whatever the correct term is, so I don't get how this would be useful in tracking people for moderation as I'm sure there are literally 1000's of members here that have posted with the exact same IP address. Surely you need GA and web logs (or maybe just GA) to correctly identify someone? Also, is it all Admins that can see IP's, and if not, which ones can? Just curious, seeing as you said mods can't.

Dav

If it's not clear to you, I don't know how to make it any clearer. It is the information in your Boards.ie account profile (i.e. your email address, things like your Skype, website etc if you've filled it in). That is as plain an explanation as I can give you - I don't know what more I can say.

Google Analytics stuff is not personally identifying information and therefore not part of the privacy data. Websites for as long as I can remember have always gathered this information (your browser reports it btw, that's how we/GA knows) - that a website has these details should not come as a surprise to anyone - it's part and parcel of how the web works. For example, some sites will check what screen res or colour depth you have running and whether or not you've got Javascript enabled and serve you a different page depending on these parameters.

We also don't have the ability to track someone using Google Analytics as it works based on data (cookies) from your machine rather than anything on our servers. It doesn't tell us anything about individual visitors. Employees are the only people who can see the Google Analytics data too and we typically just use it for sales figures to potential advertisers etc as it's a recognised metric worldwide. It's also why we get ourselves ABC audited as it's slightly more accurate (but ammounts to the same data).

I'm well aware of the limitations of IP4 addresses (roll on IP6!), but they aren't the only thing used to track and trace people. Often it comes down to a human element - people tend to post in certain styles and about certain things - it's how we spot the idiot repeat offenders a mile off.

vodafoneproblem

Thaedydal wrote: »

Now if someone is posting anon and then replying to themselves on the thread acting the maggot or bumping the thread and we cop it they will get a pm telling them to cop on, esp as it will often out them as the anon OP due to the people being able to comparing the posting styles.

If a person really really wants to leave no trace when posting anon, then they are best to go to a net cafe which they have never used before and post there.

Do you not think it would be a good idea to put this bolded bit in the charters of forums that allow anon posting, to help give people the most peace of mind possible? Although, surely it would be enough to use a different computer, with possibly a different ISP, if circumstances allowed? (Having said that, the sentence "Then theres the locations, down to your city! And possibly in some places, you're district. " from this post is interesting. Anyone know how GA would get your location down to your district? :eek: ) I'm not sure if posting style is such a reliable indicator of who someone is. For example, I don't know if you've noticed, but some people tend to pick up posting styles from each other on the internet. (It's one of my favourite things I've noticed over the past couple of years, actually!)

vodafoneproblem

Dav wrote: »

If it's not clear to you, I don't know how to make it any clearer. It is the information in your Boards.ie account profile (i.e. your email address, things like your Skype, website etc if you've filled it in). That is as plain an explanation as I can give you - I don't know what more I can say.

Ok, I guess the easiest thing for me to do is submit a request and see what I get back.

Sparks

Thaedydal wrote: »

If someone is posting anon and it is above board then we would not have reason to check

Shooting's the same and we've had to spell this out recently. Basicly, anonymity on boards is a social construct, not a technical one.

If a person really really wants to leave no trace when posting anon, then they are best to go to a net cafe which they have never used before and post there.

And get caught on the CCTV at the time they logged into here.
Get a prosecution against someone going and there is pretty much no anonymity at all on the internet.

Cabaal

vodafoneproblem, so boards should suggest users should not use their home PC?

Should we also suggest they cover themselfs when walking to the internet cafe as they can be tracked by CCTV cameras, should we also give them detailed instructions on how to use proxy's?

If people are worried about leaving trails on the internet then first off they should stop using the internet.

You've made several references to Google and the type of data you can get off of including
"Browser type
Operating system
Browser-operating system combined metric
Screen Colors
Screen Resolution
Flash Versions
Java Support "

You could get this information long before Google was around, infact most web hosts provide stats and logs to allow you to see this.

Oh and in relation to mods and IP address, mods don't get to see a user IP directly

Overheal

Ultimately though if you're not on a CIA terror watchlist or pirating a copy of The Hurt Locker nobody is going to try and jump through the IP loopholes to ID you.

And if youre worried about posting style being identified, post differently than you would if you choose to post anonymously, and fake some of the details of your issue/omit any details you think would personally identify you. Not the first time a user has tried to talk about their boyfriend when the boyfriend also uses boards.ie, etc. etc.

I don't see why boards.ie needs to outline all of this. Its basic internet privacy. It applies both here and to every website you visit. Your ISP could tell you how often you looked at porn last week, if it was really bothered (its not).

Darragh

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Ok, I guess the easiest thing for me to do is submit a request and see what I get back.

Hi there,

As per my email reply to your request this morning, I have received it and upon payment of the administration fee of €6.35, we can start the process. Your information will be back to you within 40 days, as per the Data Protection Act.

The information we will be providing to you is what you have inputted into your profile - you can see this at http://www.boards.ie/changeprofile

We also have details like

• Your userID
• What style you browse Boards.ie in - your skin
• Your join date
• The last time you logged in to the site
• The last time you did something on the site (posted/thanked)
• How many posts you have on site
• What time zone you've set for yourself
• What you've inputted for your birthdate
• How many forums you're subscribed to
• How many PMs you have in your inbox and how many are unread
• When you last changed your password
• How many times your posts have been thanked or you have thanked posts
• How many times your profile has been visited
• How many friends you have on site

Basically, all the information you've given or is publicly available on the site.

Kind regards

Darragh

Cabaal

So Darragh the admin fee is basically for people that are too lazy to find out the information they already have access to when they login using their account

Makes sense

vodafoneproblem

It's nice to get abuse for asking a perfectly civil question and making a perfectly civil suggestion! :rolleyes:

Cabaal

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

It's nice to get abuse for asking a perfectly civil question and making a perfectly civil suggestion! :rolleyes:

Its not abuse tbh,
Its just boards can't hold everyone's hand through life, alot of stuff is common sense and if people don't use common sense on the internet then you can't blame boards for that

vodafoneproblem

Darragh wrote: »

Hi there,

As per my email reply to your request this morning, I have received it and upon payment of the administration fee of €6.35, we can start the process. Your information will be back to you within 40 days, as per the Data Protection Act.

The information we will be providing to you is what you have inputted into your profile - you can see this at http://www.boards.ie/changeprofile

We also have details like

• Your userID
• What style you browse Boards.ie in - your skin
• Your join date
• The last time you logged in to the site
• The last time you did something on the site (posted/thanked)
• How many posts you have on site
• What time zone you've set for yourself
• What you've inputted for your birthdate
• How many forums you're subscribed to
• How many PMs you have in your inbox and how many are unread
• When you last changed your password
• How many times your posts have been thanked or you have thanked posts
• How many times your profile has been visited
• How many friends you have on site

Basically, all the information you've given or is publicly available on the site.

Kind regards

Darragh

Thanks for the quick reply to my email and your response here. The money element comes as a bit of a shock as it isn't mentioned in the privacy section! That's not to say I don't understand why you'd charge, but would it perhaps be an idea to mention the charge it in the privacy section? I know it's pretty standard to mention fees in places that offer FOI information, for example. I get now what would be received back on a privacy request and what wouldn't, so I don't see the need to go further with the request. For example, I was sort of curious what IP's I'd used to log in here, but it seems I wouldn't get that information back in a request, even though I'd imagine it's possibly there in the web logs somewhere? I also wouldn't get all the other technical information my browser gives to boards, like browser type, OS, version of flash/javascript/screen res/media player version etc, even though I'd imagine this information could be dug up and linked to me via web logs, using the tools Dav mentioned? I would imagine that this sort of personal technical information on a poster would be dug up if there was some sort of investigation? (I note that the line "In addition to Google analytics boards.ie also stores full web logs for analysis purposes." is mentioned under the "Nuisance posters" section of the privacy policy.)

Speaking of the privacy policy, the link in this section doesn't work as it links to http://www.boards.ie/terms/privacy/ instead of http://www.boards.ie/privacy/ The hamsters are obviously slacking behind your back!

Edit: one final question, if you don't mind. I've seen some Admins say it's ok to have alt accounts here so long as they're not used to evade forum bans. Privacy concerns being the main reason, obviously. Can you confirm this is the case? Thanks.

Sparks

Compared to FOI charges (take a read through the FOI fun and games on thestory.ie for examples), the price of a pint in return for taking the developers away from system maintenance and development to format a report you could get yourself with ten minutes of work seems like a fair deal to me.

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

Compared to FOI charges (take a read through the FOI fun and games on thestory.ie for examples), the price of a pint in return for taking the developers away from system maintenance and development to format a report you could get yourself with ten minutes of work seems like a fair deal to me.

Darragh wrote: »

€6.35

You need to change pubs Sparks, me ould mate.

Sparks

Deleted User wrote: »

You need to change pubs Sparks, me ould mate.

I'd settle for getting to a pub more than once a quarter...

28064212

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

The Illusion of Privacy/Anonymity on Boards: Suggestion and Question

The illusion of privacy on boards and the internet in general is exactly that: an illusion. I've never revealed any specific personal details about myself in my posts, but someone looking through them could easily deduce quite a lot about me, even without resorting to web-logs and IP addresses. I would never post anything that I wouldn't be happy to sign my name to, and I'm aware that everything I post on the internet is there forever, and more than likely, could be linked back to me personally. It is not boards.ie's responsibility to educate their users on responsible internet habits.

The only suggestion I would make is that this line:

Also, your name and IP address will not be shown to the general public. However, this cannot be abused, please. The owners/Administrators of boards.ie do have the powers to view any post's IP address but only as a last resort

from the Personal Issues charter should be put on the unregistered users new post page

AckwelFoley

Dav wrote: »

There is no such thing as anonymity, just varying degrees of difficulty in tracking you down. .

Very well said

PI mods wont go looking to see who has been posting unregged about a personal issue unless they believe that person is trolling.


You could re reg, post from a new pc and claim to have shot 6 people in the phoinex park.. boards wont find you, but the Gardai will be outside your tree hut / hide out before you let down the rope ladder.

Its simply a matter of who you want to by anonoymous to.. and in 99.99% of cases its to other users

sceptre

To correct one small but relevant point: an application to boards.ie to provide all personal information held would be a request under the Data Protection Acts (1988-2003) as Darragh quite correctly said, not the Freedom of Information Acts, also mentioned in this thread for some reason.

The Freedom of Information Act (1997, as amended in 2003) applies to public bodies only, specifically those as listed in sections 15 and 16 of that Act. They're mostly government bodies, government-funded bodies etc. Obviously boards.ie isn't one of those. Freedom of Information requests are quite expensive.

vodafoneproblem

Thanks for the legal act info but no one actually suggested an FOI request was the same as a personal data request from boards, so you're not actually correcting anything that I can see. No offence.

the_syco

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Thanks for the legal act info but no one actually suggested an FOI request was the same as a personal data request from boards, so you're not actually correcting anything that I can see. No offence.

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

I know it's pretty standard to mention fees in places that offer FOI information, for example.

You were looking for info, but it's info from the Data Protection act, and not the Freedom of Information act.

sceptre

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

Thanks for the legal act info but no one actually suggested an FOI request was the same as a personal data request from boards, so you're not actually correcting anything that I can see. No offence.

Ah, I don't take offence all that easily - if you already know the difference that's better again, just making sure you do, as well as for anyone else reading the thread.

PrimalTherapy

Reading this, I was just curious as to what good it would do GoogleAds, or anyone, to know what browser/version of flash /OS etc one had.

And in terms of going to an internet cafe to have a different IP for PI why not get a program to change your IP address?

I mean changing IP for privacy not trolling or messing.

Cabaal

PrimalTherapy wrote: »

Reading this, I was just curious as to what good it would do GoogleAds, or anyone, to know what browser/version of flash /OS etc one had.

It allows them to better target advertising thats more relevant and suitable to the user, location etc is also used

FarmerGreen

Im being stalked by Autocad LT.
Its creepy.
Every page on boards and other sites too.
Thats the last time I'll click on an ad.

PrimalTherapy

FarmerGreen wrote: »

Im being stalked by Autocad LT.
Its creepy.
Every page on boards and other sites too.
Thats the last time I'll click on an ad.

you mean their ad follows you?is that a cookie you can delete?