So was you know who right all along?

Finnbar01

Hi folks, just heard on WLR that the Stepehen street shopping complex is more or less dead in the water.

IMO If it had gone ahead we would now probably be dealing with a half completed white elephant.

So, was Mr greenie right in a funny sort of way?

BTW, does anyone know what's happened to the shopping complex in ferrybank?

mike65

Stephen Street? You are refering to the one intended to be based around Newgate Street I'd say. Was that man for or against it? and why is it dead in the water? Cos high profile retailers have fled to the suburbs or cos we are in a recession?

Finnbar01

mike65 wrote: »

Stephen Street? You are refering to the one intended to be based around New Street I'd say. Was that man for or against it? and why is it dead in the water? Cos high profile retailers have fled to the suburbs or cos we are in a recession?

Apologies I meant newgate street. I think it's because of the recession.

Yes Boss

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Hi folks, just heard on WLR that the Stepehen street shopping complex is more or less dead in the water.

IMO If it had gone ahead we would now probably be dealing with a half completed white elephant.

So, was Mr greenie right in a funny sort of way?

BTW, does anyone know what's happened to the shopping complex in ferrybank?

NO!

RobitTV

Lads! Someday it will be built but it might be a few years yet. The plan was to Ambitious And it takes up alot of space dont get me wrong It looks great and everything But it wont be for a few years yet before its built.

merlante

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Hi folks, just heard on WLR that the Stepehen street shopping complex is more or less dead in the water.

IMO If it had gone ahead we would now probably be dealing with a half completed white elephant.

So, was Mr greenie right in a funny sort of way?

BTW, does anyone know what's happened to the shopping complex in ferrybank?

Rubbish, the McDonagh centre was built in Kilkenny and is still going. The Newgate centre would have done at least as well. Would have drawn shoppers from miles away. Would have been game changing for Waterford. A quick look at what is available in Galway and Limerick for similar catchments indicates that Waterford can support a significantly larger retail provision.

Sooner or later, some kind of shopping centre will be built there. Thanks to McCann et al, it will now be about a decade behind schedule.

The Ferrybank centre, for its size, was however a white elephant. Pity the Newgate isin't built already. It would change people's perceptions of Waterford completely. Judging by some of the comments on here, even Waterford people don't believe in the place.

Finnbar01

merlante wrote: »

Rubbish, the McDonagh centre was built in Kilkenny and is still going. The Newgate centre would have done at least as well. Would have drawn shoppers from miles away. Would have been game changing for Waterford. A quick look at what is available in Galway and Limerick for similar catchments indicates that Waterford can support a significantly larger retail provision.

Sooner or later, some kind of shopping centre will be built there. Thanks to McCann et al, it will now be about a decade behind schedule.

The Ferrybank centre, for its size, was however a white elephant. Pity the Newgate isin't built already. It would change people's perceptions of Waterford completely. Judging by some of the comments on here, even Waterford people don't believe in the place.

Well for a start they may drop the houses/apartments and luxury hotel as we obviously have no need for them.

merlante

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Well for a start they may drop the houses/apartments and luxury hotel as we obviously have no need for them.

They could do that. Although, this recession won't last forever at the same time. At least I hope not.

Bards

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Well for a start they may drop the houses/apartments and luxury hotel as we obviously have no need for them.

I doubt that somehow - with all the tourist iniatitives that the CIty council are currently pursuing, not to mention the revamped Waterford Crystal Visitor Centre, I would say we will need more hotels not less

dayshah

Finnbar01 wrote: »

So, was Mr greenie right in a funny sort of way?

Yes

The reason we had a serial objector is because we had serial crap development proposal makers.

Even the people here in favour of Newgate seem to realise that the "luxury 4*" mug ugly hotel and luxury tenements were a bad idea. A new shopping centre would be nice, but the proposed development was a symbol of developers delusions of grandeur.

dayshah

Bards wrote: »

I doubt that somehow - with all the tourist iniatitives that the CIty council are currently pursuing, not to mention the revamped Waterford Crystal Visitor Centre, I would say we will need more hotels not less

Ard Rí? Can't we fix that first?

Did you look at the proposed hotel? It was hideously ugly. The only 4 stars deserved are the stars that should be seen by the architect after getting slaps for designing such an ugly building.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Yes

The reason we had a serial objector is because we had serial crap development proposal makers.

Even the people here in favour of Newgate seem to realise that the "luxury 4*" mug ugly hotel and luxury tenements were a bad idea. A new shopping centre would be nice, but the proposed development was a symbol of developers delusions of grandeur.

Yes, it would have been a total disaster if a luxury hotel had have been built... better to nurture decay and decrepitude in the heart of our city, by leaving the site as a kind of a post apocalyptic return to nature breeding ground for rats and feral cats and foxes.

Pity they didn't leave them abattoirs and rotting warehouses down by O'Connell st., sure them foreigners will turn it into a slum boy. "Everyone knows" we don't need apartments...

Finnbar01

merlante wrote: »

Yes, it would have been a total disaster if a luxury hotel had have been built... better to nurture decay and decrepitude in the heart of our city, by leaving the site as a kind of a post apocalyptic return to nature breeding ground for rats and feral cats and foxes.

Pity they didn't leave them abattoirs and rotting warehouses down by O'Connell st., sure them foreigners will turn it into a slum boy. "Everyone knows" we don't need apartments...

I'm not sure if this is true in this case but a lot of hotels were built because of tax incentives and tax breaks on the initial investment. That's why we have an oversupply of hotels around the country.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1111/hotels.html

As for houses and apartments, there's an oversupply there of 345,000

http://dt106ers.com/blog/2010/03/345000-homes-vacant-says-ditucd-report/

If that newgate centre had to go ahead, we would be looking at a half built white elephant.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/commercialproperty/2009/1028/1224257547030.html

Yes Boss

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Well for a start they may drop the houses/apartments and luxury hotel as we obviously have no need for them.

We currently don't have what you would call a luxury hotel, so one would definitely be welcome.

Yes Boss

dayshah wrote: »

Yes

The reason we had a serial objector is because we had serial crap development proposal makers.

Even the people here in favour of Newgate seem to realise that the "luxury 4*" mug ugly hotel and luxury tenements were a bad idea. A new shopping centre would be nice, but the proposed development was a symbol of developers delusions of grandeur.

Anyone who understands the planning system can object to any application and make a strong case for a refusal. Planning is too gray and allows fundamentalists to use the system to try and force their way of life onto others....You obviously don't know what you are talking about:rolleyes:

Finnbar01

Yes Boss wrote: »

We currently don't have what you would call a luxury hotel, so one would definitely be welcome.

We do. Faithlegg, Waterford Castle and The Fitzwilton are four star hotels, also we have quite a good few 3 start hotels as well.

Here's another hotel gone to the wall:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0706/breaking54.html

dashboard_hula

Ard Ri makes me wince everytime I look up at it driving down the Quay...either renovate it or demolish it...

I'm not from Waterford, but I love living here, it's just the right size....I think we have more than enough apartments (hi, Railway Square!), but a shopping centre in the town itself rather than outside it would really make the place worth staying in, instead of that horrendous drive to Cork, or the boring one to Limerick.

Erm, where's Newgate again?

Yes Boss

Finnbar01 wrote: »

We do. Faithlegg, Waterford Castle and The Fitzwilton are four star hotels, also we have quite a good few 3 start hotels as well.

Here's another hotel gone to the wall:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0706/breaking54.html

None of which I would associate with 'Luxury'!

Finnbar01

Yes Boss wrote: »

None of which I would associate with 'Luxury'!

You're kidding me right? :rolleyes:

Yes Boss

Finnbar01 wrote: »

You're kidding me right? :rolleyes:

No

dayshah

Yes Boss wrote: »

None of which I would associate with 'Luxury'!

Did you look at the plans of the 'luxury' hotel?

It was mug ugly and has no place in a civilised country.

KingLoser

I'm actually happy to hear this has stalled. I hope the land is sold off in smaller pockets and some more realistic ideas are put forward, more in the proper scale of Waterford.

SillyMcCarthy

Well Finn' if you heard it on WLR then it must be true!

The heart & soul of life & mis-information in Waterford.

merlante

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is true in this case but a lot of hotels were built because of tax incentives and tax breaks on the initial investment. That's why we have an oversupply of hotels around the country.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1111/hotels.html

As for houses and apartments, there's an oversupply there of 345,000

http://dt106ers.com/blog/2010/03/345000-homes-vacant-says-ditucd-report/

If that newgate centre had to go ahead, we would be looking at a half built white elephant.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/commercialproperty/2009/1028/1224257547030.html

So what kind of oversupply do we have of barren wasteland in prime urban areas I wonder?

How much barren wasteland do we have off O'Connell st. in Dublin, or Patrick st. in Cork? Lets see. 0% barren wasteland.

So if the competition is between a luxury hotel that nobody ever spends a single night in, or barren wasteland, what do you think would be better?

If somebody wants to flush their cash down the toilet turning barren wasteland, just off the main thoroughfare of the city, into a luxury hotel, is that so very wrong?

Now I don't think that the tax payer should buy it off them via NAMA, but that's another joke entirely.

Also, just to bring a bit of reality to the argument, you do realise that the vast, vast majority of the oversupply of everything was in Dublin and the Dublin commuter belt and certainly NOT in Waterford? Waterford experienced minimal development in the boom in comparison.

AdMMM

Yes Boss wrote: »

None of which I would associate with 'Luxury'!

By international standards, only really Waterford Castle would rank highly. I would say Faithlegg is a good Irish 4 star hotel while the Fitzwilton is a 4 star by the skin of it's ball-sack.

fricatus

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Hi folks, just heard on WLR that the Stepehen street shopping complex is more or less dead in the water.

Did they also mention that Buddy Holly had died in a plane crash? Old news! Of course it's dead in the water, what with funding from banks utterly drying up. That's not to say it can't, and won't, be built once conditions improve. Remember City Square lying unbuilt as a hole in the ground untouched for a year after Iraq invaded Kuwait?

Finnbar01 wrote: »

So, was Mr greenie right in a funny sort of way?

No, he was totally and utterly wrong. Wrong then and wrong now. Let me explain why:

The Green movement goes on about "sustainability" an awful lot. If you look at the concept, it's hard to argue with: our economic and industrial activities should be set up in such a way that they can be carried on into the future indefinitely, rather than relying on the use of dwindling finite resources.

Then follows some questionable logic, but essentially the argument concludes that stuff like cars, ring roads, retail parks, etc. are "unsustainable", whereas densified cities, urban apartment living, cycling and public transport are seen as "sustainable" activities. Now you can argue these points ad infinitum, but those are basically the conclusions that the Greens have drawn, and while I wouldn't, in a million years, join the Green Party, I broadly agree that the "sustainable" activities are a good thing.

Now take the argument down to Waterford and its retail scene. One can argue that all this retail stuff is "unsustainable", but I think trade and industry have sustained themselves well enough over the years, and continue to do so in their various forms. Trying to stop retail is like trying to stop the tide; if retailers want to set up in Waterford, they will set up in Waterford, or else they will set up in Kilkenny or Clonmel and serve Waterford from there. There is nothing that Brendan McCann or anyone else can do about it.

The trick then, is to funnel retail into sustainable buildings and locations. One would think that the one and only location where a large retail presence is sustainable would be the city centre, right? A quarter of the city's population lives there, and most of the rest are linked by sustainable (!) public transport links after all. Conversely, places like the Butlerstown Retail Park and the Ferrybank Centre have poor public transport links, are in parts of the city with comparatively few residents, and therefore feed car dependency. In short, they are unsustainable.

The crazy thing that McCann did however, was to object against a retail development that would support, underpin and sustain the retail primacy of the city centre for a generation, while simultaneously ignoring two unsustainable retail developments that could have seriously destabilised the city centre (it's already happened in Limerick, with the Crescent Shopping Centre undermining the city centre).

His strategy of objecting to the Newgate Centre while not objecting to Ferrybank and Butlerstown, is wholly contradictory. He is therefore either a fool who doesn't understand his own movement's objectives, or a hypocrite who chooses to ignore them, because he has some sort of irrational "bee in his bonnet" about Newgate.

As for concerns about whether it would have been a "white elephant", the McDonagh Junction centre in Kilkenny now (finally) has full occupancy, including a number of retailers that would be a nice addition to the Waterford retail scene. If that can be done in Kilkenny, then surely it can be done in a place more than twice the size?

dayshah

frictus, did you look at the plans?

The retail was barely even half the project. It was full of pipe dreams. The objectors weren't against a development there. They just wanted one that was realistic. If only places like Longford had a Brendan McCann they would be in a far better position.

If it had gone ahead, instead of concealed wasteland we would have another Ard Rí type fiasco right in the city centre. As though the Old Stand wasn't bad enough.

If McCann runs as an independent I'd vote for him. He doesn't go for what he thinks is popular, he goes for what is right. And a smear campaign has been waged against him by developers.

Finnbar01

merlante wrote: »

So what kind of oversupply do we have of barren wasteland in prime urban areas I wonder?

How much barren wasteland do we have off O'Connell st. in Dublin, or Patrick st. in Cork? Lets see. 0% barren wasteland.

So if the competition is between a luxury hotel that nobody ever spends a single night in, or barren wasteland, what do you think would be better?

If somebody wants to flush their cash down the toilet turning barren wasteland, just off the main thoroughfare of the city, into a luxury hotel, is that so very wrong?

Now I don't think that the tax payer should buy it off them via NAMA, but that's another joke entirely.

Also, just to bring a bit of reality to the argument, you do realise that the vast, vast majority of the oversupply of everything was in Dublin and the Dublin commuter belt and certainly NOT in Waterford? Waterford experienced minimal development in the boom in comparison.

So your saying that we should build the luxurious hotel even if no one actually spends a night in it? So the hotel would close down and turn into something like the Ard rí? That makes so sense whatsoever.

We also do have our ghost estates.

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/city-has-6-%E2%80%98ghost-estates%E2%80%99/

merlante

Finnbar01 wrote: »

So your saying that we should build the luxurious hotel even if no one actually spends a night in it? So the hotel would close down and turn into something like the Ard rí? That makes so sense whatsoever.

We also do have our ghost estates.

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/city-has-6-%E2%80%98ghost-estates%E2%80%99/

What I am saying is, if some guy wants to build a hotel because he thinks he can make money at some point in a derelict, barren wasteland, I am not going to stand in his way. Even if it was a total failure, it would take years of decay before the site would get to the stage where a barren wasteland would be preferable.

What happened with the Ard Ri was an extreme case, because it is so difficult to secure the building in its isolated position. Derelict sites, like the De La Salle centre, in the centre of the city, have been much easier to secure and monitor -- being just a few minutes from the city centre and the main Garda station. The De La Salle centre, incidentally, is just one of the eye sores that the Newgate project would take off our hands. Surely to god, it would be better to take a punt on a new development rather than having the attitude, "sure the new development will probably fail anyway and end up exactly the same as the de la salle centre so why do anything?" I'm not sure there would be any cities at all if people had that attitude.

Waterford city itself has only a small number of ghost estates that will be mopped up over the next few years. Ghost estates are a real problem in the commuter belt counties where there are estates that will literally never be occupied.

fricatus

dayshah wrote: »

frictus, did you look at the plans?

Yes.

dayshah wrote: »

The retail was barely even half the project. It was full of pipe dreams. The objectors weren't against a development there. They just wanted one that was realistic. If only places like Longford had a Brendan McCann they would be in a far better position.

Pipedreams? Some retail, a hotel, and restaurants? Have you seen the Athlone Town Centre by any chance? That was built - in Athlone. How can a similar development in Waterford (three times the size of Athlone) be considered unrealistic?

dayshah wrote: »

If it had gone ahead, instead of concealed wasteland we would have another Ard Rí type fiasco right in the city centre. As though the Old Stand wasn't bad enough.

You don't know that for certain. That would all have depended on when it started being built, and the solvency of the developers and their bank backers.

One thing is for sure though. Say if the developer had gone bust and the build had had to be stopped, and taken over by NAMA. Ultimately, construction would begin again and the thing would be built, even if it took some time. Remember that this happened in the case of City Square, as I pointed out earlier. We're talking about a prime site in the centre of Waterford, not a field outside Edgeworthstown.

dayshah wrote: »

If McCann runs as an independent I'd vote for him. He doesn't go for what he thinks is popular, he goes for what is right. And a smear campaign has been waged against him by developers.

It's easy to toss around accusations like that. Do you care to give any examples of this "smear campaign" so that we can evaluate them for ourselves? I've thought the issues through, and I'm in complete opposition to McCann and his objections (and may I quickly point out that I've no business interests or connections of any sort).

I've set out my reasoning as to why McCann is wrong in an earlier post, and I'm happy to debate it.

Finnbar01

merlante wrote: »

What I am saying is, if some guy wants to build a hotel because he thinks he can make money at some point in a derelict, barren wasteland, I am not going to stand in his way. Even if it was a total failure, it would take years of decay before the site would get to the stage where a barren wasteland would be preferable.

What happened with the Ard Ri was an extreme case, because it is so difficult to secure the building in its isolated position. Derelict sites, like the De La Salle centre, in the centre of the city, have been much easier to secure and monitor -- being just a few minutes from the city centre and the main Garda station. The De La Salle centre, incidentally, is just one of the eye sores that the Newgate project would take off our hands. Surely to god, it would be better to take a punt on a new development rather than having the attitude, "sure the new development will probably fail anyway and end up exactly the same as the de la salle centre so why do anything?" I'm not sure there would be any cities at all if people had that attitude.

Waterford city itself has only a small number of ghost estates that will be mopped up over the next few years. Ghost estates are a real problem in the commuter belt counties where there are estates that will literally never be occupied.

That's fallacious thinking. If we build just for the sake of it, it is a waste of capital, time, resources etc that could have better being employed somewhere else. Also, most of the hotels buildt recently were done so because of tax breaks and tax incentives. AFAIK, these tax incentives and tax breaks have been phased out. So I don't know where the project stands now.

BTW, Off topic but do you or anyone else know what's happening the Waterhaven project.

jmcc

fricatus wrote: »

It's easy to toss around accusations like that. Do you care to give any examples of this "smear campaign" so that we can evaluate them for ourselves?

There was a concerted PR effort by developers a while back. It was limited and was not a proper operation. Of course it was aided by the fact that McCann's students union politics was not what Waterford needed and it deprived the Greens of what should have been a natural seat on the City Council. McCann wanted to turn Waterford into Galway village. Instead of hotels and shopping centres Waterford would have had twee little hovels (none above three storeys) that Michael D. Higgins would have been proud to write poems about while ignoring the fact that Waterford is a city.

Regards...jmcc

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

What happened with the Ard Ri was an extreme case, because it is so difficult to secure the building in its isolated position. Derelict sites, like the De La Salle centre, in the centre of the city, have been much easier to secure and monitor -- being just a few minutes from the city centre and the main Garda station. The De La Salle centre, incidentally, is just one of the eye sores that the Newgate project would take off our hands.

The De La Salle centre became derelict after it was sold for development. It was a non-derelict ugly building before.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

The De La Salle centre became derelict after it was sold for development. It was a non-derelict ugly building before.

The place was falling down long before it was sold. In any case, I guess we're going to get used to it now, aren't we?

merlante

jmcc wrote: »

There was a concerted PR effort by developers a while back. It was limited and was not a proper operation. Of course it was aided by the fact that McCann's students union politics was not what Waterford needed and it deprived the Greens of what should have been a natural seat on the City Council.

McCann also had a huge amount of popular opposition that had nothing to do with developers. A perusal of this board over the past 10 years makes this clear.

Ultimately McCann's many spurious objections, and many of them were spurious, did harm.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

The place was falling down long before it was sold. In any case, I guess we're going to get used to it now, aren't we?

Then why were the members so opposed to De La Salle selling the place. Should we replace a derelict club with a derelict hotel?

Also, maybe you can list the actuall objections you think were spurious, and show that these actually were McCann's grounds for objection?

merlante

Finnbar01 wrote: »

That's fallacious thinking. If we build just for the sake of it, it is a waste of capital, time, resources etc that could have better being employed somewhere else. Also, most of the hotels buildt recently were done so because of tax breaks and tax incentives. AFAIK, these tax incentives and tax breaks have been phased out. So I don't know where the project stands now.

BTW, Off topic but do you or anyone else know what's happening the Waterhaven project.

Every business that has ever required investment entailed a certain degree of risk for the investors. The main risk, and sometimes the only risk, is to the investors. So if an investor wants to invest, and the plan gets permission, I say go ahead -- particularly if he is redeveloping wasteland, and particularly if the proposed development could potentially herald a new dawn for retail in the city. The employment during construction is also great.

Tax incentives only pay off if the underlying business makes some kind of sense. Tax incentives do not cover the purchase of land and redevelopment, they just incentivise it.

No idea about Waterhaven.

Yes Boss

dayshah wrote: »

Then why were the members so opposed to De La Salle selling the place. Should we replace a derelict club with a derelict hotel?

Also, maybe you can list the actuall objections you think were spurious, and show that these actually were McCann's grounds for objection?

According to a planner friend of mine...Most planning appeals are dishonest and don't convey the true reasons for the objection. Planning in Ireland is gray, allowing anyone to form an argument against a perfect application. The cards are stacked in favor of the objector...

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Then why were the members so opposed to De La Salle selling the place. Should we replace a derelict club with a derelict hotel?

Also, maybe you can list the actuall objections you think were spurious, and show that these actually were McCann's grounds for objection?

Sentimental value?

I am not an expert in planning objections, but I can give a few examples, and I can, at least, point out the fact that for a certain period of time he objected to almost all developments big and small. So either all of these developments were exceptionally poor, or McCann was trying to make a point.

I do remember the man talking on the radio, and citing reasons like, "there are already enough places selling alcohol" in his opposition to the new shop in Farran park, which I believe eventually went through at a cost to the owner. Last time I checked, the market determines 'if there are enough places that sell X', and legislature decides how alcohol sales are controlled, not McCann.

I remember he objected to Pizza Hut in Railway sq. because of signage. Now that application did not get through, for whatever reason, or else they pulled out, but signage? We all know what a Pizza Hut sign looks like, and there is nothing wrong with them.

I also remember that plans, such as the restaurant on the corner of the Waterside and John's st. was granted permission but McCann had succeeded in delaying it so long the business was no longer viable because the window of opportunity to establish a restaurant in that area had passed.

I remember McCann saying on WLR that anything over 3 stories in Waterford was too high, so naturally, all of these developments were going to be objected to. And he was very consistent in doing so. Again, it is not up to McCann to determine the maximum height of buildings in urban areas -- that also is handled by the legislature. Of course, in his actual objections, I'm sure he would have phrased things a little differently.

McCann unmistakably had an agenda. His expertise with 'dealing' with planning applications was so famous that NIMBYs had him on speed dial. He forced plans to a whole new level -- not, I believe, necessarily to a higher level of quality -- but to essentially proof them against McCann's inevitable objections. McCann had a skill that few amateur planners could match.

You can turn around and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't actually read his objections, but I have heard enough through the media and from the horses mouth to form a solid opinion of him: that of a well-meaning nut. At best, he filibustered the system.

Max Powers

anyone who suggests McCann was right must be on a different planet, well certainly not from Waterford anyway. He has consistently objected to near on every plan, check out Bord Plenala web-site for the various crazy objections he made delaying many projects (terminally in some cases)everything from churchs to shops to creches. He damaged our reputation for a progressive city where business was welcomed.

On Newgate, if it wasnt delayed by McCannt et al, it may be employing 1000 people now, each buying pints, taxis, sandwiches, dinners, papers etc daily. Yeah, if it was there now fully built, i doubt it would be full but Im sure TK maxx would take a place there, M&S seem interested and others have expressed interest to set up here but cant get required retail space. We need space to attract these large businesses into the city, smaller shops will follow.

Silverado

Yes Boss wrote: »

According to a planner friend of mine...Most planning appeals are dishonest and don't convey the true reasons for the objection. Planning in Ireland is gray, allowing anyone to form an argument against a perfect application. The cards are stacked in favor of the objector...

If rumour is true in this case some of the objectors were hoping for "go away" settlements.

jmcc

merlante wrote: »

McCann also had a huge amount of popular opposition that had nothing to do with developers. A perusal of this board over the past 10 years makes this clear.

When he started objecting to local shops around here, any natural support, beyond the usual Green fundamentalists, deserted him. This is the city of Waterford. Now that level of student politics nutjobbery might be ok for the village of Galway but it is positively lethal in a city because the electoral area is not the kind of area that votes along traditional party lines. I think that one Local Elections candidate was the cousin of a sitting TD and she did not get elected but one FFer actually did get elected almost by accident.

Ultimately McCann's many spurious objections, and many of them were spurious, did harm.

Agreed. But his simplistic student politics damned the Greens for years and effectively denied the Greens a foothold in Waterford city. His damage to the Greens, as a political party, was worse. That he was allowed to be a Green Party candidate for so long and to be an abject electoral failure on so many occasions points to a very incompetent Green Party management.

Regards...jmcc

Yes Boss

Silverado wrote: »

If rumour is true in this case some of the objectors were hoping for "go away" settlements.

I am familiar with a number of situations where this is the case, however, Mr. McCann was not involved in anything like that!

Road-Hog

Without having the luxury of reviewing Mr McCann's numerous 'submissions' to numerous planning applications, I think that anyone who does go to the trouble may discover that in the majority of cases he merely points out how by granting permission would contradict planning policy outlined in the city/county own development plans

Road-Hog

I remember McCann saying on WLR that anything over 3 stories in Waterford was too high, so naturally, all of these developments were going to be objected to. And he was very consistent in doing so. Again, it is not up to McCann to determine the maximum height of buildings in urban areas -- that also is handled by the legislature. Of course, in his actual objections, I'm sure he would have phrased things a little differently.

McCann's own personal view re anything above 3 stories being too high for W'ford is just boll0cks..........no matter what his views are re height they would have no bearing on the outcome of a planning application unless the city council's had a policy/restriction in their own development plan

dayshah

Road-Hog wrote: »

Without having the luxury of reviewing Mr McCann's numerous 'submissions' to numerous planning applications, I think that anyone who does go to the trouble may discover that in the majority of cases he merely points out how by granting permission would contradict planning policy outlined in the city/county own development plans

That was the problem with the whole country. Development plans/guidelines were prepared and then completely ignored.

As for building height, it should depend on the surroundings. I think the Tower is 4 stories, a relatively modern building, and it looks well. Same with lots of buildings behind the Tower, and out in WIT builds are over 3 stories and look fine. Its all about the context the buildings are in.

I think it would be well worth getting some good architects and spending a few million to get a good development plan, and then sticking to it.

merlante

Road-Hog wrote: »

Without having the luxury of reviewing Mr McCann's numerous 'submissions' to numerous planning applications, I think that anyone who does go to the trouble may discover that in the majority of cases he merely points out how by granting permission would contradict planning policy outlined in the city/county own development plans

Well I can tell you, provision was made in the development plan for a major retail development in the location of Newgate. That doesn't mean that McCann couldn't have found elements of the plan which could be seen to be objectionable and focus on those. In any case, the plan was ultimately successful, but there were unusually long delays, including requests for additional information and a hearing, because of McCann's objections. These delays could have been crucial in causing what was ultimately an acceptable plan to founder. It is quite clear from what McCann himself has said, that he is not in favour of large developments full stop. I believe this was his motivation in digging up any grounds for objections that would help his case. From what was reported on various objections, they seemed to get very complicated, right down to the level of measuring light angles, traffic volumes, etc. An ample battleground for an attempt to slow down and block projects.

As regards not having reviewed his specific submissions first hand, I haven't even read the bible yet, and that is one of the foundation documents of western culture in terms of literature, moral philosophy and intellectual history -- needless to say McCann's objections are further down the list. The human lifespan is finite and we can't verify everything ourselves from first principles. Maybe someone who has the skill and time to parse planning submissions could add something.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

That was the problem with the whole country. Development plans/guidelines were prepared and then completely ignored.

As for building height, it should depend on the surroundings. I think the Tower is 4 stories, a relatively modern building, and it looks well. Same with lots of buildings behind the Tower, and out in WIT builds are over 3 stories and look fine. Its all about the context the buildings are in.

I think it would be well worth getting some good architects and spending a few million to get a good development plan, and then sticking to it.

In Waterford, we're not talking about sites zoned as agricultural, that are flood plains, rezoned as residential or anything crazy like that. We're talking about a council tailoring their development plan around a development that they know is already in the works, e.g. the Newgate centre, the council ultimately saying, yeah, that's exactly what we meant, and then some guy saying to Bord Planala, actually, that's not what you meant because of the following technicalities! Once it all gets written down and re-interpreted by the gnomes in an Bord Planala, with unhelpful input from a man who is against shopping centres, all of a sudden there are problems.

Waterford city council have produced some great plans, produced with input from architects, engineers and planners, which are qualified people that they have on the payroll. They have tried their best. They have made explicit provision for development on the north quays, Newgate, Bilberry, etc., but that doesn't guarantee that even reasonably good plans will get through.

As for the height of buildings, clearly when tall buildings start to be built, the first one or two look out of place no matter where they are. When they clump together they look natural. Some of the buildings on O'Connell st. are quite tall buildings. Because there is precedent that's fine. You move down the Quay a bit and all of a sudden tall buildings are out of character. We seem to be stuck in a 200 year old mold where building height can only stay the same or go down. Some people are saying you can't build something bigger than a medieval tower. We have to ask ourselves whether there can be any compromise on this sort of attitude because otherwise either we won't develop at all, or we'll have to build a second city centre somewhere, which is not going to happen any time soon.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Well I can tell you, provision was made in the development plan for a major retail development in the location of Newgate. That doesn't mean that McCann couldn't have found elements of the plan which could be seen to be objectionable and focus on those. In any case, the plan was ultimately successful, but there were unusually long delays, including requests for additional information and a hearing, because of McCann's objections. These delays could have been crucial in causing what was ultimately an acceptable plan to founder.

The original plan was not successful. Many of the objections put forward by McCann and others were upheld. If the developers had come up with a realistic plan it would have proceeded far more quickly.

Also, I don't see why you keep calling this a retail development as the retail was only one part of it.

Here is the plan.
http://www.newgatecentre.com/

The (horrendously ugly) hotel is actually physically separate from the rest of the development and definitely should be scrapped.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

The original plan was not successful. Many of the objections put forward by McCann and others were upheld. If the developers had come up with a realistic plan it would have proceeded far more quickly.

Also, I don't see why you keep calling this a retail development as the retail was only one part of it.

Here is the plan.
http://www.newgatecentre.com/

The (horrendously ugly) hotel is actually physically separate from the rest of the development and definitely should be scrapped.

The original plan was not successful, and maybe he was right to object to it. But he also objected to the second plan, which was approved, and many other plans that were later approved. This says to me that at least some of these objections are spurious, based on his personal principles. He definitely has/had an agenda.

The retail part was the part that we all care about and the part that would have been the most successful and would have been a game changer for Waterford. I don't think anyone is really bothered about the hotel part one way or the other. Bord Planala and the council were happy with it (the second plan).

It is unfortunate the KRM didn't submit a plan that would have at least have got past the council the first time. There was a feeling in many quarters back then that you submitted something very ambitious and allowed yourself room to take off a floor, etc., in response to inevitable objections. If this was on their mind, it didn't pay off. I do honestly think, though, that despite their poor strategy in this regard, the hostile planning context instigated by McCann, and carried on by an alliance of inner city 'interests' (I forget the name), forced KRM to take a lot longer over plans and consultations than they ordinarily would. I don't really feel that 'quality' was at the core of the dispute though, because KRM knew that whatever they proposed, and whoever they consulted with, and no matter how many public meetings they organised, the usual suspects were going to object one way or the other.

The story about Railway sq. is relevant here. McCann is said to have been consulted personally on Railway sq. about all aspects of the development. The developers agreed a design with him in the interests of getting the thing built -- imagine McCann nearly playing the role of local planning tsar! But what did he do? He objected to the thing anyway. And of course, Railway sq. was another example of something that he objected to that later got through.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

The original plan was not successful, and maybe he was right to object to it. But he also objected to the second plan, which was approved, and many other plans that were later approved. This says to me that at least some of these objections are spurious, based on his personal principles. He definitely has/had an agenda.

I think saying spurious is a bit too strong. Two normal rational people can have different views on a project. A lot of it comes down to opinion. Roughly half is complaints seem to have been upheld.

Regarding the hotel, its part of the plan, so if the scrap that they have to resubmit.