Leaving the loco running overnight

wile1000

Hi all,

I've just moved to Castleforbes / The Point Village (near the O2 concert venue) and my apartment looks over the rail yards to the north. Appears to mainly be for goods and a resting place for the old orange passenger Irish Rail carriages.

However on most weeknights (including right now), there is a locomotive -always one of the older orange ones- sitting there with good carriages/trailers (apologies for incorrect reference) attached waiting to go somewhere, yet he'll be there until morning, engine running all night. These things aren't quiet either and with windows open during summer it doesn't lead to a good night's sleep.

My question - why?? Has someone forgotten the keys and now can't turn it off? Surely it can't be efficient to run these all night, even if idling..

Yours, sleepless & curious,
Paul.

foggy_lad

That's the wasteful nature of Irish rail at its best! The driver in the mornin then probably has to pull the locomotive in somewhere for fuel due to the all night running.

Run_to_da_hills

Its easier to keep a GM motor running all night than it is trying to get it started from cold the next day.

At least its a 071 class, the 201's don't sound as good.

I would be more worried about some scumbags breaking into the yard and taking it for a spin. :eek:

DWCommuter

Its tradition and Im serious.

Before the locosexuals come on here delivering the why and therefore, these locos have to be kept running during downtime because they are near impossible to start otherwise. (without a NASA type device:D) The same thing happened in Sligo near a Hotel a few years back. The whole carry on has been happening for years. From a joe public point of view its bonkers. From an enthusiasts point of view its technical and from Irish Rails point of view, its just something they have to do (because of poor standards) and all without any consideration for anyone. So much for Gormely and the Green tornadoes!

Barry Kenny will probably say its due to the rising of the fourth moon during the solar eclipse after decades of under investment and all will believe him because he's "on da radio and da telly".:rolleyes:

lord lucan

DWCommuter wrote: »

Before the locosexuals come on here delivering the why and therefore, these locos have to be kept running during downtime because they are near impossible to start otherwise.

I was gonna ask the OP if i could stay at his place?! The hum of a GM would send me into a lovely sleep!:)

Run_to_da_hills

The OP must also realise that his imcome tax is paying for this inconvenience.

wile1000

lord lucan wrote: »

I was gonna ask the OP if i could stay at his place?! The hum of a GM would send me into a lovely sleep!:)

You'd be more than welcome if you want to give me some tips to get used to it. Perhaps I will in time....

foggy_lad

hmmm noise pollution air pollution greenhouse gasses depletion of fossil fuels etc etc why are the green party not all over this? irish rail leave locomotives and other railcar engines roaring away all over the place like they have their own oil wells and refinery for the deisel!

BrianD

Would the locomotive be providing electrical power to anything else that it's attached to?

foggy_lad

BrianD wrote: »

Would the locomotive be providing electrical power to anything else that it's attached to?

like the kettle tv and heaters in the works canteen?

corktina

...like the Air Con (and in winter , heating....) actually...thats what I thought and by "older orange", that could be a 201 couldn't it if any are still running in those colours...

Run_to_da_hills

corktina wrote: »

...like the Air Con (and in winter , heating....) actually...thats what I thought and by "older orange", that could be a 201 couldn't it if any are still running in those colours...

Theres a heap no them in orange lying up at Inchacore, not too sure of their faith.

Cookie_Monster

lord lucan wrote: »

I was gonna ask the OP if i could stay at his place?! The hum of a GM would send me into a lovely sleep!:)

I don't think they quite "hum" anymore, more "rattle" as various parts get bounced around the cylinders

Cookie_Monster

Orange has to be 201 as no 071 is left in orange as far as I know. 177 is back at work apparently so it may be that also.

who the fug

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its easier to keep a GM motor running all night than it is trying to get it started from cold the next day.

At least its a 071 class, the 201's don't sound as good.

I would be more worried about some scumbags breaking into the yard and taking it for a spin. :eek:

What GM engine is it running ?

GM071class

DWCommuter wrote: »

Its tradition and Im serious.

Before the locosexuals come on here delivering the why and therefore, these locos have to be kept running during downtime because they are near impossible to start otherwise... ...The whole carry on has been happening for years. From a joe public point of view its bonkers. From an enthusiasts point of view its technical....

I've been left running all night so I'm nice an ready for typing this morning ...

In all seriousness though, I know that there is a reluctance to shut down a Locomotive, or a Railcar at night due to troubles arising in the morning.

In alot of Locomotives the starter motors (the 071's have 4) double as engine protection against Hydrolic Lock.
Hydrolic Lock basically occours when water finds its merry way into the cylinders, and as the engine cranks over on start-up it locks up.
The Starter motors are designed to only have enough power to turn the engine over under normal starting conditions. If Hydrolic lock occours, the motors will stall, and the starter fuse (even though it's a big one) will blow, and protect the engines from damage.

The 201's don't suffer the same issue, as they have intelligent computers to manage and detect the Hydrolic lock. However as with ALL computers they royally c*ck-up from time to time.. .

It was a major issue for the 201's, and IÉ never liked leaving them around the network over-night. This was part of the reason for the 071's normally working the overnight intercity trains to the likes of Athone (back in the days of orange)


So for DW and the rest of Locophobic gang, there's the Enthusiasts point of view....:rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

Its something I've always wondered about and heard of quite a few proposed preserved UK locos engine being destroyed by it: Exhaust ports face directly up so rain water can get in and seep down directly into the cylinders of a parked up loco if enough water builds up. Seem a bit mad, simple side vents on top of the port would solve this problem.

I presume in use the combined outward gas pressure and heat prevents any possible water build-up so is much less of an issue, even if left overnight in the rain for some water to build up.

trad

I was an apprentice fitter in Inchicore when the 071's were put into service after lying up for months. It took us weeks to get them going. The starter motors were only good for a few attempts and had to be replaced regularly as had the batteries and this was before they ever ran a mile (or kilometer) in service.

GM071class

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Its something I've always wondered about and heard of quite a few proposed preserved UK locos engine being destroyed by it: Exhaust ports face directly up so rain water can get in and seep down directly into the cylinders of a parked up loco if enough water builds up. Seem a bit mad, simple side vents on top of the port would solve this problem.

I presume in use the combined outward gas pressure and heat prevents any possible water build-up so is much less of an issue, even if left overnight in the rain for some water to build up.

If the water gets into the exhaust it'd normally get expelled by the engines exhaust gases in running, or sometimes blown out the airbox valves during a purge.

I know that they have a collection area in the bottom of the manifold near the exhaust port, but water can get over this when they're left for a long time..

foggy_lad

is there not a safety issue in refeulling these locomotives with the engines running? are there not health and safety concerns or are irish rail exempt from the regulations? all other vehicles should be switched off during refeulling so why not these locomotives?

lord lucan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Orange has to be 201 as no 071 is left in orange as far as I know. 177 is back at work apparently so it may be that also.

I think 077 & 078 are still in Orange. 078 definitely is.

GM071class

foggy_lad wrote: »

is there not a safety issue in refeulling these locomotives with the engines running? are there not health and safety concerns or are irish rail exempt from the regulations? all other vehicles should be switched off during refeulling so why not these locomotives?

No...

Refuelling of Larger machinery (Trains, Ferries, Heavy plant, ect.) is normally done with the engines running.
So long as the fueling equipment is earthed, shouldn't be a problem.

All they need is a Hi-vis, Gloves, valid PTS, Goggles, a full written report, several supervisors, and the rest of usual Health & Safety horse-sh!te...:rolleyes:

foggy_lad

GM071class wrote: »

No...

Refuelling of Larger machinery (Trains, Ferries, Heavy plant, ect.) is normally done with the engines running.
So long as the fueling equipment is earthed, shouldn't be a problem.

All they need is a Hi-vis, Gloves, valid PTS, Goggles, a full written report, several supervisors, and the rest of usual Health & Safety horse-sh!te...:rolleyes:

pity, it would have been a solution to the op's problem

Run_to_da_hills

GM071class wrote: »

I've been left running all night so I'm nice an ready for typing this morning ...

In all seriousness though, I know that there is a reluctance to shut down a Locomotive, or a Railcar at night due to troubles arising in the morning.

In alot of Locomotives the starter motors (the 071's have 4) double as engine protection against Hydrolic Lock.
Hydrolic Lock basically occours when water finds its merry way into the cylinders, and as the engine cranks over on start-up it locks up.
The Starter motors are designed to only have enough power to turn the engine over under normal starting conditions. If Hydrolic lock occours, the motors will stall, and the starter fuse (even though it's a big one) will blow, and protect the engines from damage.

The 201's don't suffer the same issue, as they have intelligent computers to manage and detect the Hydrolic lock. However as with ALL computers they royally c*ck-up from time to time.. .

It was a major issue for the 201's, and IÉ never liked leaving them around the network over-night. This was part of the reason for the 071's normally working the overnight intercity trains to the likes of Athone (back in the days of orange)


So for DW and the rest of Locophobic gang, there's the Enthusiasts point of view....:rolleyes:

Hydraulic lock can also occur with excess fuel getting into the block, caused by faulty injectors, or in some dry sump engines too much lube oil in the block, (or flooding carbs on petrol motor) it can easily bend conrods. I have come across some horror stories with Jap multicylinder bikes.

foggy_lad

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Hydraulic lock can also occur with excess fuel getting into the block, caused by faulty injectors, or in some dry sump engines too much lube oil in the block, (or flooding carbs on petrol motor) it can easily bend conrods. I have come across some horror stories with Jap multicylinder bikes.

why not scrap these piles of junk then and buy some proper working locomotives?

GM071class

foggy_lad wrote: »

why not scrap these piles of junk then and buy some proper working locomotives?

Any large engine can suffer it, Even small ones too.

Not a problem with most cars due to the length and design of exhausts, but I've known of even Lawn Mowers suffering from Hydrolic Lock.

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

why not scrap these piles of junk then and buy some proper working locomotives?

I don't think IE really has an issue with

Jap multicylinder bikes

:p

Guy:Incognito

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Theres a heap no them in orange lying up at Inchacore, not too sure of their faith.

I never knew locomotives were religious .:)

Run_to_da_hills

Stekelly wrote: »

I never knew locomotives were religious .:)

Yes, and carriages too, like all the serviceable Mk3's that are currently destined to Hell. :mad:

lord lucan

Stekelly wrote: »

I never knew locomotives were religious .:)

GOD = GMD.

General Motors Diesels!:pac:

murphaph

Whatever about locomotives running all night, running modern railcars all night is a fcuking joke altogether. If modern DMUs (all IE's ones are modern!) are regularly failing to start after being switched off for a few hours overnight, then the problem is sh!t maintenance and nothing else.

My father used to supply Irish Commercials (main Volvo dealer in Ireland) with stuff. He used to visit the IC mechanics based in Conynham Road bus garage to see what tools etc. they needed and he always wondered why the Dublin Bus mechanics and the IC mechanics were never to be seen working alongside each other, the answer: unionised DB mechanics would not work with non-unionised Irish Commercials mechanics. The end result was that when the modern buses (with all sorts of on board computer hocus pocus) ran out of warranty, the DB mechanics hadn't a clue how to maintain them beyond belting them with a lump hammer etc.

Don't be surprised if the IE mechanics had a similar attitude to MAN mechanics with the new railcar fleet. NOTHING would surprise me with a CIE group company anymore. Don't know how the genuine workers in there hack it.

foggy_lad

railcars and the new trains are usually left running for hours in heuston station while waiting for departure or if they are returned after a fault and the same practice happens in Connolly station and this wastes feul and shortens the times between servicing and also fills the stations with fumes but this only affects passengers so irish rail are not bothered telling drivers to turn off their engines when they are waiting.

Ham'nd'egger

foggy_lad wrote: »

railcars and the new trains are usually left running for hours in heuston station while waiting for departure or if they are returned after a fault and the same practice happens in Connolly station and this wastes feul and shortens the times between servicing and also fills the stations with fumes but this only affects passengers so irish rail are not bothered telling drivers to turn off their engines when they are waiting.

I was in Heuston dropping off an elderly lady some weeks ago and she asked me to drop her bag over to her train. There was 3 railcars in the station and none of them were on at all.

Judgement Day

Hamndegger wrote: »

I was in Heuston dropping off an elderly lady some weeks ago and she asked me to drop her bag over to her train. There was 3 railcars in the station and none of them were on at all.

Probably all broken down. I was on the West Somerset Railway many years ago and they used to start their ancient AEC (?) railcars from cold every morning. Connolly is particularly disgusting in terms of fumes from locos and railcars belching out crap under overall roof.

foggy_lad

i was in connolly last week and there were two sets of railcars roaring away and the sligo train, but maybe word has been passed to drivers to turn them off in heuston? makes sense really to save feul and lake the station more pleasant for passengers

foggy_lad

Hamndegger wrote: »

I was in Heuston dropping off an elderly lady some weeks ago and she asked me to drop her bag over to her train. There was 3 railcars in the station and none of them were on at all.

where were those "railcars" going? it is unusual to see "railcars" in heuston as they are mainly used on maynooth longford line or drogheda or wexford lines and the newbridge commuter service which might be a railcar usually sets off from platform 1 which is out in the open. are you confusing the new 22000 trains with railcars?

Judgement Day

Sadly the 22000s are railcars - DMUs.

http://www.irishrail.ie/fleet_information/intercity_fleet.asp

JHMEG

foggy_lad wrote: »

railcars and the new trains are usually left running for hours in heuston station while waiting for departure or if they are returned after a fault and the same practice happens in Connolly station and this wastes feul and shortens the times between servicing and also fills the stations with fumes but this only affects passengers so irish rail are not bothered telling drivers to turn off their engines when they are waiting.

I wrote to Barry Kenny and Noel Dempsey several years ago about such practices. Neither bothered replying.

Run_to_da_hills

JHMEG wrote: »

I wrote to Barry Kenny and Noel Dempsey several years ago about such practices. Neither bothered replying.

They should make it law that all railcars should be switched off after 10 minutes in all enclosed stations.

Its sems contradictory to have a smoking ban in a railway station and at the same time have rail cars belching out carcinogenic fumes around the clock.

T Corolla

If the trains had to be left running in Summer time because they find it hard to starts it must have be no fun last winter when tempteratures were below freezing for most of the month of January. I not familar with train from a engineering but I know the new 22k have engines under the carriages and heavy duty motors turn the wheels and the main power source is the cab with the driver . The old trains were just one single engine pulling carriages. The railcar are similar design I'm sure. The old locomotives should be just ticking over that all it needs and they should be little noise out of them. I agree with all of the threads that railcars are left running full volume in Connolly and the place smell pretty bad

foggy_lad

The 22000 railcars will automatically shut down if left idle for a certain period, not sure how long that is. Enterprise drivers are also instructed to shut down the head-end power upon arrival in Connolly if the trainset is running backwards (this sometimes happens if the train runs to Great Victoria Street in Belfast) as this would fill up Connolly's shed with fumes.

foggy_lad wrote: »

why not scrap these piles of junk then and buy some proper working locomotives?

GM locomotives are among the most reliable in the world, they developed a reputation as such. Read up on their history and you'd see as such. Had it not been for GM, the A and C class locos would have been in a scrap heap 20-25 years earlier than they were.

foggy_lad

How can they be called reliable when they don't start??? Scrap them and get some real locomotives that can be started and are not wasteful!

Run_to_da_hills

foggy_lad wrote: »

How can they be called reliable when they don't start??? Scrap them and get some real locomotives that can be started and are not wasteful!

Scrap the company and keep the locos.

Wolfe Tone

So are trains literally left running for weeks at a time?

Run_to_da_hills

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So are trains literally left running for weeks at a time?

Yes according to reports.

The lads up at Downpatrick seem to have no problems starting the A from cold, I guess from the fact that they have to purchase their own diesel they have no choice. .

L1011

foggy_lad wrote: »

How can they be called reliable when they don't start??? Scrap them and get some real locomotives that can be started and are not wasteful!

I'd take a guess a new loco would cost a LOT more than the diesel used...

kingshankly

railcars are not left running all night, most infact will shut down themselves after an hour or so.

who the fug

Karsini wrote: »

The 22000 railcars will automatically shut down if left idle for a certain period, not sure how long that is. Enterprise drivers are also instructed to shut down the head-end power upon arrival in Connolly if the trainset is running backwards (this sometimes happens if the train runs to Great Victoria Street in Belfast) as this would fill up Connolly's shed with fumes.



GM locomotives are among the most reliable in the world, they developed a reputation as such. Read up on their history and you'd see as such. Had it not been for GM, the A and C class locos would have been in a scrap heap 20-25 years earlier than they were.

Will back you up on that, we operate them in our offshore fleet, had a taxi boat operating between a pier and a oil jetty, in 6 years we had two days off hire.

Vessel worked 24/7

Run_to_da_hills

kingshankly wrote: »

railcars are not left running all night, most infact will shut down themselves after an hour or so.

Would that be intentionally?

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Would that be intentionally?

i think he would know, he does drive them for a living...

foggy_lad

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Yes according to reports.

The lads up at Downpatrick seem to have no problems starting the A from cold, I guess from the fact that they have to purchase their own diesel they have no choice. .

so is it a training issue then? are irish rail staff not capable of starting these when other people have no problem with them? i read in another thread about dublin bus mechanics not working with outside non-union mechanics that were taken in to train them on fixing new busses some years ago so when they had to fix the new engines on their own they hadn't a clue, is this a similar situation?