Spaying a female dog.

easyeason3

Does getting a female dog spayed calm her down & make her less energetic?

Glowing

Nope - you may just need to walk her for longer every day! What breed is she?

It is the best thing for her all round though and you should spay her anyway to avoid unwanted litters, and to avoid all sorts of health complications ...

easyeason3

A labrador. It's my friends dog & she's coming near the six month mark so she's thinking of getting her done before she goes into heat.
She doesn't want to breed off her but was wondering if it will have any effect on the dog?

Ado86

If your dog is very energetic - breed dependent, she probably is bored and requires more stimulation and exercise.

Glowing

Definately get her done - she'll be back to normal in a day or two, it won't have any ill effects and will prevent some cancers developing in later life ....

easyeason3

Ado86 wrote: »

If your dog is very energetic - breed dependent, she probably is bored and requires more stimulation and exercise.

She is having trouble training her because she's still very much at the puppy stage. Jumping up, bad on recall etc. So that's why she was wondering would it calm her down a bit.

She's getting her done anyway as she doesn't want a litter of pups to try & find good homes for. But she was wondering if getting the pooch spayed would calm her down enough to learn commands etc.

Her energy is unbelievable & she's in a house where there is always someone at hom & they have a JR too for company.

shinikins

I had my two cocker spaniel bitches neautered at the same time(they developed lumps on the mammary glands that turned out to be cancerous) and they calmed down immediatly. They're a very energetic breed anyway, and i was shocked by the change in them. They were prtty quiet and grumpy for a few days, but as soon as the stitches came out, they were fine, just a lot calmer!

wiger toods

easyeason3 wrote: »

Does getting a female dog spayed calm her down & make her less energetic?

please get this done! i recently lost my little baby through cancer! she was a beautiful redsetter, which made me the happiest person around for 13 years. the vet told me had she been spayed, there would have been very little chance of her developing this disease. i knew nothing about this of course, and cant turn the clock back. i would strongly advise you to do it please. as they get older the possibilty of them getting cancer is huge, unless they've been spayed.

easyeason3

wiger toods wrote: »

please get this done! i recently lost my little baby through cancer! she was a beautiful redsetter, which made me the happiest person around for 13 years. the vet told me had she been spayed, there would have been very little chance of her developing this disease. i knew nothing about this of course, and cant turn the clock back. i would strongly advise you to do it please. as they get older the possibilty of them getting cancer is huge, unless they've been spayed.

I'm sorry to hear that. It's always difficult losing a pet especially one you have cared for over 13 years.

She's definately getting her done. She's just hoping for a happy side effect = that she'll calm down enough to train!

To be fair to my friend she has great patience & has tried everything to train her pooch but she has a ferocious energy in her even though she is well excercised.

salad dodger

Apologies first for slightly hijacking the thread.

But as we're on the subject of spaying, I'd just like to find out when is the best time to get it done? I've seen some relatives bitches swell up after the operation and i wonder was it because the dogs were done either too early or too late.
Mrs D and i got a wee shih tzu bitch last week at 8weeks old. I'm not sure as to what age to put her under the knife as we have no real interest in breeding off of her and as mentioned before, to reduce the risk of health probs in the future. I've heard not to get it done until she has gone on heat at least once. I have also heard it recommended in the past to let a bitch have a litter first and then get her done.

Thanks for any input.

shinikins

salad dodger wrote: »

Apologies first for slightly hijacking the thread.

But as we're on the subject of spaying, I'd just like to find out when is the best time to get it done? I've seen some relatives bitches swell up after the operation and i wonder was it because the dogs were done either too early or too late.
Mrs D and i got a wee shih tzu bitch last week at 8weeks old. I'm not sure as to what age to put her under the knife as we have no real interest in breeding off of her and as mentioned before, to reduce the risk of health probs in the future. I've heard not to get it done until she has gone on heat at least once. I have also heard it recommended in the past to let a bitch have a litter first and then get her done.

Thanks for any input.

I've just been talking to my Vet(he's a family friend) and in his opinion, you should wait til around 6 months, or the first time she comes into season(which tends to be around the same time) If a dog is not bred, the chances of cancer occuring are huge(thats what happened to my two, neither had a litter and i found the lumps on their teats around age 6) Whether or not she has a litter first is of no consequence. I'm only repeating what he told me, and i may not have picked up all the info correctly. Your Schih-tzu pup will be needing her shots soon anyway, why not ask your vet then?

anniehoo

Glowing wrote: »

Definately get her done - she'll be back to normal in a day or two, it won't have any ill effects and will prevent some cancers developing in later life ....

Pyometra (nulliparous is just the technical term for not having a litter) is the main one to worry about in an unspayed female dog.

easyeason3 wrote: »

But she was wondering if getting the pooch spayed would calm her down enough to learn commands etc.

Her energy is unbelievable .

Neutering is not a magic fix for "bad behaviour".Some dogs calm down energy wise but it wont correct behavioural probs. It eliminates hormonal influences but it will still need basic discipline.Thats a whole different ballgame. It should help..but spaying or castrating any animal doesnt equal a personality change.

salad dodger wrote: »

when is the best time to get it done?

Dogs can come into "heat" anytime from 5-10mths. Personally i would let them go into one heat (this doesnt mean having a litter). It means their hormones have matured fully and then its just growth after that. Some will argue against it.In development terms its like removing the ovaries of a girl before shes had a period. Hormones are vital and i think removing their source before its time isnt a good idea.

Bookkeeper09

We had our Retriever/labrador female spayed about 7 weeks ago at 6 months. This was before she went into heat at all.
I had asked the question of whether we should wait until she had gone into season once and got conflicting opinions but more seemed to be advising to get her done before she went into season so we went with that.
She was quiet for about 2 days and then back to her normal loopy self!
I would say if the dog is very energetic to re-enforce the lampshade(with duct tape or something similar)....our dog managed to take hers off and take out her stitches! All was fine tho!

morganafay

I don't know about dogs but my vet prefers to spay cats at 4 months before they go into heat.

I got all my dogs spayed at about 10-12 months, but some of them hadn't come into heat at that age anyway. If I spay my puppy I'd do it before she goes into heat probably.

lrushe

Imagine sterilizing a human at the age of 9 or 10 before they were sexually mature, imagine how stunted their growth and development would be. Please if possible leave a dog to fully mature before spay / neutering, of course if you can't contain your dog then spay / neutering at 6 months is the lesser of 2 evils but otherwise leave you dog until 18 - 24 months depending on its breed.

Xiney

lrushe wrote: »

Imagine sterilizing a human at the age of 9 or 10 before they were sexually mature, imagine how stunted their growth and development would be. Please if possible leave a dog to fully mature before spay / neutering, of course if you can't contain your dog then spay / neutering at 6 months is the lesser of 2 evils but otherwise leave you dog until 18 - 24 months depending on its breed.

most people are not equipped with the time or the knowledge to keep a dog in heat away from intact males in the area.

spaying a female dog before they go into their first heat is the best practise. Human development is miles away from dogs' - the comparison is invalid.

lrushe

Xiney wrote: »

most people are not equipped with the time or the knowledge to keep a dog in heat away from intact males in the area.

spaying a female dog before they go into their first heat is the best practise. Human development is miles away from dogs' - the comparison is invalid.

I've already said if you can't contain your dog to spay / neuter at 6 months.
The comparison is v.valid. Sex hormones have the same effects on a dogs growth as it does a humans. Just like human adolsences dog adolsences grow in fits and starts rather than in one go, cut out hormones at any point in their development and you stunt grownth, which is why they are finding an increase in bone problems like bone cancer in dogs in later life that were spayed early.

lisar201

so is it better to let a bitch have pups before you neutre? My 7 month old rottie is coming into heat and i am debating whether or not to let her have pups as some ppl are saying its better to and some are saying it makes no difference at all

andreac

lisar201 wrote: »

so is it better to let a bitch have pups before you neutre? My 7 month old rottie is coming into heat and i am debating whether or not to let her have pups as some ppl are saying its better to and some are saying it makes no difference at all

Absol not!! There is absol no need for your dog to have pups. Plus i hope you wouldnt be thinking of breeding her in her first heat, are you?

lrushe

lisar201 wrote: »

so is it better to let a bitch have pups before you neutre? My 7 month old rottie is coming into heat and i am debating whether or not to let her have pups as some ppl are saying its better to and some are saying it makes no difference at all

There is absolutely no need for a dog to ever have pups. I spayed my 4 and a year old Chihuahua in January, she never had any pups.

lisar201

andreac wrote: »

Absol not!! There is absol no need for your dog to have pups. Plus i hope you wouldnt be thinking of breeding her in her first heat, are you?

no no no no no!!! I was thinking about when she was maybe about 2 or older
but if it makes no difference at all i more than likely won't breed her

lrushe

lisar201 wrote: »

no no no no no!!! I was thinking about when she was maybe about 2 or older
but if it makes no difference at all i more than likely won't

Lisar201, I have a similar aged Rottie, I'm on 2 minds whether to show her or not but if I don't end up showing I will be spaying her when she's 2, I really do think its the best course of action

andreac

lisar201 wrote: »

no no no no no!!! I was thinking about when she was maybe about 2 or older
but if it makes no difference at all i more than likely won't

Oh thats good, sorry, it just looked like you were thinking of doing it now. Its not easy to sell rotties to good homes and there are so many in the pound and being given up for adoption so i honestly wouldnt be breeding from her unless you have showed her and she is an excellent example of her breed.

lisar201

lrushe wrote: »

Lisar201, I have a similar aged Rottie, I'm on 2 minds whether to show her or not but if I don't end up showing I will be spaying her when she's 2, I really do think its the best course of action

yeah ill wait till near the time and then decide,It just gona be a nightmare trying to walk her when she is in heat!

andreac

lisar201 wrote: »

yeah ill wait till near the time and then decide,It just gona be a nightmare trying to walk her when she is in heat!

I wouldnt be walking her too much when shes in heat. If a dog gets to her it can only take seconds to mate with her and you wont be able to get him off her if you are on your own with her so i would be very careful out walking her and if you really have to, just walk her places where there are no other dogs really, just to be sure.

lrushe

andreac wrote: »

I wouldnt be walking her too much when shes in heat. If a dog gets to her it can only take seconds to mate with her and you wont be able to get him off her if you are on your own with her so i would be very careful out walking her and if you really have to, just walk her places where there are no other dogs really, just to be sure.

Just to add if you can drive her somewhere to walk her it will prevent males following you home and waiting outside your door!

kylith

lrushe wrote: »

Imagine sterilizing a human at the age of 9 or 10 before they were sexually mature, imagine how stunted their growth and development would be. Please if possible leave a dog to fully mature before spay / neutering, of course if you can't contain your dog then spay / neutering at 6 months is the lesser of 2 evils but otherwise leave you dog until 18 - 24 months depending on its breed.

Developmentally, probably yes, but their growth wouldnt' be stunted; quite the opposite in fact. Human males who've been castrated grow very tall, and I've heard the same is true with dogs; those neutered before puberty is done can get 'leggy', and bigger than average.

A dog certainly shouldn't gain weight after being neutered. Both of mine were neutered before I got them from rescue and one is a lot slimmer now than she was then. If your dog puts on weight it needs more exercise and/or less food.

lisar201

andreac wrote: »

I wouldnt be walking her too much when shes in heat. If a dog gets to her it can only take seconds to mate with her and you wont be able to get him off her if you are on your own with her so i would be very careful out walking her and if you really have to, just walk her places where there are no other dogs really, just to be sure.

i normally take her to the beach every evening because she loves swimming in the sea but i think i'm just going to have avoid it for about 3 wks,Think i'm going to have to spend loads of time in the garden playing fetch because there just seems to be dogs everywhere!its really not fair on her!

lrushe

kylith wrote: »

Developmentally, probably yes, but their growth wouldnt' be stunted; quite the opposite in fact. Human males who've been castrated grow very tall, and I've heard the same is true with dogs; those neutered before puberty is done can get 'leggy', and bigger than average.

A dogs growth plates grow at different stages in its development right up until it is full grown. So for example a dogs tiba and fibula might grow to its full size by 6 months but its femur won't be fully developed until 11 months. If the dog is sterilised at 6 months the femur will never fully develop as it should (stunted). There are cases where a dogs (mostly males) grow quiet tall and leggy but this is as dangerous in later life as stunted growth as their bones grow too fast, this in turn will lead to painful joints and possible cancers.

Miss Lockhart

Just as on the human medical forums on this board, I really think people should not be allowed to post supposed facts here without supporting it with links to reputable scientific literature.

lrushe - what is your opinion on the comparative risks of possible growth plate problems in a spayed female versus risks of mammary cancer in an unspayed female?

lrushe

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Just as on the human medical forums on this board, I really think people should not be allowed to post supposed facts here without supporting it with links to reputable scientific literature.

lrushe - what is your opinion on the comparative risks of possible growth plate problems in a spayed female versus risks of mammary cancer in an unspayed female?

My opinion is that mammary cancer is easier to detect and much easier to treat than the likes of bone cancer which is nearly always a death sentence. I am not advocating never neutering or spaying a dog but rather waiting until it is fully matured ie 18 - 24 months old when there is only a marginally increased risk of mammary cancer over a dog who was spayed at a young age. I am not comfortable with the blanket statement given to most pet owners that spaying and neutering at 6 months is the best the answer and until there is more research gone into the long term effects of early spaying and neutering it is not a course of action I would choose for my dog. However, as I have said before if you cannot contain your intact dog then early neutering or spaying is the lesser of 2 evils.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Graces7

There is a lot to be said for "juvenile( pediatric) spaying".

It is practised a lot in the US and Canada by reputable breeders.

One overview..

http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/fact-sheets/juvenile-spay-neuter.html

Ask google for others. ( very slow connection and I cannot get sites up)

As for it calming a bitch down! No way! Our wee JRT/Basset cross hardly stopped in her tracks after her op.

It is the breed and the personality of the dog. Even adulthood has not stopped this one; but she sleeps longer now at 5 years,

lrushe

Graces7 wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for "juvenile( pediatric) spaying".

It is practised a lot in the US and Canada by reputable breeders.

One overview..

http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/fact-sheets/juvenile-spay-neuter.html

Ask google for others. ( very slow connection and I cannot get sites up)

As for it calming a bitch down! No way! Our wee JRT/Basset cross hardly stopped in her tracks after her op.

It is the breed and the personality of the dog. Even adulthood has not stopped this one; but she sleeps longer now at 5 years,

Graces7 I accept that early spay / neutering is needed where unwanted litters can't be prevented and therefore the viewpoint taken by humane societies. However what I am not comfortable with is the possible long term health implications associated with early spay / neutering and the fact that it is dished out as an all-in-one solution to so many dog issues without those implications being discussed with pet owners. In my own case I have found those implications unacceptable for my dogs, maybe others might aswell if they had the information.
Just to add 2 of my 3 dogs are spayed and neutered and the third will be when she's fully grown (if she's not shown) so I am not against spaying and neutering at all, just not before a dog is mature.

Graces7

lrushe wrote: »

Graces7 I accept that early spay / neutering is needed where unwanted litters can't be prevented and therefore the viewpoint taken by humane societies. However what I am not comfortable with is the possible long term health implications associated with early spay / neutering and the fact that it is dished out as an all-in-one solution to so many dog issues without those implications being discussed with pet owners. In my own case I have found those implications unacceptable for my dogs, maybe others might aswell if they had the information.
Just to add 2 of my 3 dogs are spayed and neutered and the third will be when she's fully grown (if she's not shown) so I am not against spaying and neutering at all, just not before a dog is mature.

I hear you; but have you read that link and others? There are many misconceptions flying around that have no basis in fact.

For dogs I mean; maybe we think too much in human terms. Like the folk who think a cat has to have a litter etc etc etc.

Check more on google? I cannot get sites up on this internet connection; it is not just the humane societies by any means; sorry that that seemed so.

Family in Canada are breeders of champion whippets and after much research they advocate juvenile spaying. Better for the dogs all round. I trust them on this one.

ISDW

Graces7 wrote: »

I hear you; but have you read that link and others? There are many misconceptions flying around that have no basis in fact.

For dogs I mean; maybe we think too much in human terms. Like the folk who think a cat has to have a litter etc etc etc.

Check more on google? I cannot get sites up on this internet connection; it is not just the humane societies by any means; sorry that that seemed so.

Family in Canada are breeders of champion whippets and after much research they advocate juvenile spaying. Better for the dogs all round. I trust them on this one.

Just because its on the internet doesn't make it true.

At my local vet practice, opinion varies between the vets, 2 say wait until they are mature, one says spay before 1st heat, so it is no wonder that us mere dog owners are confused.

I get the rescue dogs spayed/neutered as soon as I can when they come in, unless they come in in season, then I wait until they are halfway to the next season. However, I have a dog of my own that I raised from a pup, hand-rearing and I have let him mature before having him neutered. He is now 18 months old and is booked in for the snip on Tuesday.

shinikins

lrushe wrote: »

My opinion is that mammary cancer is easier to detect and much easier to treat than the likes of bone cancer which is nearly always a death sentence. I am not advocating never neutering or spaying a dog but rather waiting until it is fully matured ie 18 - 24 months old when there is only a marginally increased risk of mammary cancer over a dog who was spayed at a young age. I am not comfortable with the blanket statement given to most pet owners that spaying and neutering at 6 months is the best the answer and until there is more research gone into the long term effects of early spaying and neutering it is not a course of action I would choose for my dog. However, as I have said before if you cannot contain your intact dog then early neutering or spaying is the lesser of 2 evils.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I have to disagree slightly with you here, mammary cancer is not easier to treat than bone cancer in dogs, as it tends to be much more insidious than any other cancer. Bone cancers in dogs can be treated, but it is an expensive process which is offputting to owners, but certainly not impossible. In fact, not 6 months after my two were spayed, one had to be put to sleep as she became absolutely riddled with secondary cancer. During their surgeries, all of their reproductive organs were removed including all their mammary glands which technically should have removed that risk.
The link that you have added is medical opinion, rather than medical fact, and there are plenty of conflicting views out there. As ISDW put it "Just because its on the internet doesn't make it true." And in my opinion, just because the author of the study has an M.S, after her name, it doesn't make her an expert...it can after all stand for Master of Science, or Medical Student...

Graces7

ISDW wrote: »

Just because its on the internet doesn't make it true.

At my local vet practice, opinion varies between the vets, 2 say wait until they are mature, one says spay before 1st heat, so it is no wonder that us mere dog owners are confused.

I get the rescue dogs spayed/neutered as soon as I can when they come in, unless they come in in season, then I wait until they are halfway to the next season. However, I have a dog of my own that I raised from a pup, hand-rearing and I have let him mature before having him neutered. He is now 18 months old and is booked in for the snip on Tuesday.

Not sure what your first line means?

This is experience, tried and tested.

I asked family; with the males, juvenile spaying prevents " hormone memory"; many do not realise that it takes up to six months after male neutering for the male hormones to leave the body. ie they can still produce.

In male/female, it does no harm at all. Maybe some legginess but nothing more than that and that is our experience over many years.

And yes, it means that we can sell puppies without having to "trust" owners to spay and neuter; the US and Canada have an appalling over-population of dogs and are tackling it well.

Yes it is a "new idea " here, and will take time to sift through.

Cherry Blossom

lrushe wrote: »

My opinion is that mammary cancer is easier to detect and much easier to treat than the likes of bone cancer which is nearly always a death sentence. I am not advocating never neutering or spaying a dog but rather waiting until it is fully matured ie 18 - 24 months old when there is only a marginally increased risk of mammary cancer over a dog who was spayed at a young age. I am not comfortable with the blanket statement given to most pet owners that spaying and neutering at 6 months is the best the answer and until there is more research gone into the long term effects of early spaying and neutering it is not a course of action I would choose for my dog. However, as I have said before if you cannot contain your intact dog then early neutering or spaying is the lesser of 2 evils.

Was thinking about spaying at around 10 months for my West Highland Terrier, should I wait longer or would she be fully developed at this age (with small dogs maturing faster)

lrushe

shinikins wrote: »

I have to disagree slightly with you here, mammary cancer is not easier to treat than bone cancer in dogs, as it tends to be much more insidious than any other cancer. Bone cancers in dogs can be treated, but it is an expensive process which is offputting to owners, but certainly not impossible. In fact, not 6 months after my two were spayed, one had to be put to sleep as she became absolutely riddled with secondary cancer. During their surgeries, all of their reproductive organs were removed including all their mammary glands which technically should have removed that risk.
The link that you have added is medical opinion, rather than medical fact, and there are plenty of conflicting views out there. As ISDW put it "Just because its on the internet doesn't make it true." And in my opinion, just because the author of the study has an M.S, after her name, it doesn't make her an expert...it can after all stand for Master of Science, or Medical Student...

Well we will have to agree to disagree then, I've known dogs to have mammary cancer at 5-6 years of age live until 14 after treatment with no reaccurnace, anytime I've known of dogs with bone cancer they've rarely live more than 12 months after being diagnosed. Rubbing or brushing a dog is often when mammary cancer is found by an owner as it is on the surface of the animal so its usually caught early, bone cancer isn't usually detected until the dog starts showing symptoms ie limping which by then it has spread too far as it is such an agressive form of cancer, I have never said it is impossible to treat but just alot harder than most cancers. Not to mention the treatment for bone cancer is so much more invasive than the treatment for mammary cancer. Its not just bone cancer it has been shown to decrease but also spleen, thyroid, urinary tract and heart tumours as well as vaginal dermatitis and joint disorders.
If your dog died 6 months after being spayed there is a v.real chance she already had undected cancer starting to form and that had spread, cancer can form from the v.smallest piece of infected tissue.
The study is not an opinion there are medical statistics in there that cannot be ignored. Nowhere does the study claim to be gospel but it asks for more investigation into the long term effects of early spay / neutering. I can guarantee you Laura J. Sanborn is definately not a medical sudent, I included her study because I was asked to back up my opinion with some medical facts, they only way I could do that was to provide a link to the study as I can't include the hard copy I have to a post, its not just a random link I found off the internet to support my argument.

lrushe

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Was thinking about spaying at around 10 months for my West Highland Terrier, should I wait longer or would she be fully developed at this age (with small dogs maturing faster)

My personal opinion is that I would wait until she was over a year old if you can keep her away from males, if not spay her when she is 10 months. As her owner you will need to weigh up the pro's and con's as I have done with my dogs and have come to the conclusion that I would be waiting until maturity before sterilising.

shinikins

lrushe wrote: »

Well we will have to agree to disagree then, I've known dogs to have mammary cancer at 5-6 years of age live until 14 after treatment with no reaccurnace, anytime I've known of dogs with bone cancer they've rarely live more than 12 months after being diagnosed. Rubbing or brushing a dog is often when mammary cancer is found by an owner as it is on the surface of the animal so its usually caught early, bone cancer isn't usually detected until the dog starts showing symptoms ie limping which by then it has spread too far as it is such an agressive form of cancer, I have never said it is impossible to treat but just alot harder than most cancers. Not to mention the treatment for bone cancer is so much more invasive than the treatment for mammary cancer. Its not just bone cancer it has been shown to decrease but also spleen, thyroid, urinary tract and heart tumours as well as vaginal dermatitis and joint disorders.
If your dog died 6 months after being spayed there is a v.real chance she already had undected cancer starting to form and that had spread, cancer can form from the v.smallest piece of infected tissue.
The study is not an opinion there are medical statistics in there that cannot be ignored. Nowhere does the study claim to be gospel but it asks for more investigation into the long term effects of early spay / neutering. I can guarantee you Laura J. Sanborn is definately not a medical sudent, I included her study because I was asked to back up my opinion with some medical facts, they only way I could do that was to provide a link to the study as I can't include the hard copy I have to a post, its not just a random link I found off the internet to support my argument.

Conversely, I have known dogs who have contracted Osteosarcoma (bone cancer) and survived. My own Cocker is one. After recovering from her mammary cancers, she developed a cancer in her hind left leg, and with succesful chemo has survived without any invasive treatment. In my opinion, neutering a female dog is far more invasive, and there is far greater risk of infection as the entire abdominal cavity is exposed. Even with more agressive bone tumours a full amputation is a far simpler and less invasive procedure.

In my opinion the reason so many dogs die from bone cancers is because their owners don't tend to be vigilant about the health of their pets.

I am curious to know how you can guarantee that Ms Sanborn is not a medical student, all i can find on her is that she is a researcher in Rutger University, and my own vet(who is a friend) has never come across her in the course of his own studies. He also stated that a 4 year old study based on 200 previous papers is hardly reliable.

At the end of the day, i trust my vet, he studied intensively for 5 years and has completed a post graduate degree. He is my expert!

lrushe

shinikins wrote: »

Conversely, I have known dogs who have contracted Osteosarcoma (bone cancer) and survived. My own Cocker is one. After recovering from her mammary cancers, she developed a cancer in her hind left leg, and with succesful chemo has survived without any invasive treatment. In my opinion, neutering a female dog is far more invasive, and there is far greater risk of infection as the entire abdominal cavity is exposed. Even with more agressive bone tumours a full amputation is a far simpler and less invasive procedure.

In my opinion the reason so many dogs die from bone cancers is because their owners don't tend to be vigilant about the health of their pets.

I am curious to know how you can guarantee that Ms Sanborn is not a medical student, all i can find on her is that she is a researcher in Rutger University, and my own vet(who is a friend) has never come across her in the course of his own studies. He also stated that a 4 year old study based on 200 previous papers is hardly reliable.

At the end of the day, i trust my vet, he studied intensively for 5 years and has completed a post graduate degree. He is my expert!

Like I said we will have to agree to disagree and its for each owner to make up their own mind and it just doesn't sit right with me to spay or neuter early, it is my opinion and when asked it is the one I give.
As for Laura J.Sanborn the M.S. after her name does stand for Master of Science, nowhere in the world do medical students sign there name M.S. But if Ms. Sanborn doesn't have enough letters after her name for you you might try Pam Davol PHD or Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP both have written on the subject of early spay / neutering with findings similar to Ms. Sanborns.

shinikins

lrushe wrote: »

Like I said we will have to agree to disagree and its for each owner to make up their own mind and it just doesn't sit right with me to spay or neuter early, it is my opinion and when asked it is the one I give.
As for Laura J.Sanborn the M.S. after her name does stand for Master of Science, nowhere in the world do medical students sign there name M.S. But if Ms. Sanborn doesn't have enough letters after her name for you you might try Pam Davol PHD or Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP both have written on the subject of early spay / neutering with findings similar to Ms. Sanborns.

In the US students do indeed sign M.S. after their names, and i know this from personal experience. My question was how can you guarantee that Sanborn is not a student, not how many letters she or anyone else has after it? The main problem i have with her report is that it is very sweeping and general, giving overall statistics. For example there are 6 different types of bone cancer that can affect dogs, but her statistics just give total rates. Also, larger breeds such as Rottweilers, Labradors and Wolfhounds are far more likely to develop bone cancer than small breeds. Here are a few links that show no relation of early neutering to increased risk of bone cancer.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=575
http://www.dalmatians.us/cancer.htm
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=575

All written by vets(with the accompanying letters after their names ) but they are in the end, like your link, reports published on the internet.

Beekay

I know this is OT but How long will the dog be at the vets when getting them spayed?

shinikins

Beekay wrote: »

I know this is OT but How long will the dog be at the vets when getting them spayed?

Depends on the vets facilities and workload, if they have space they may take your dog in overnight, or if you drop your dog in early, it my be collected that evening. Your vet should be able to give you an idea if you call and ask.

lrushe

shinikins wrote: »

In the US students do indeed sign M.S. after their names, and i know this from personal experience. My question was how can you guarantee that Sanborn is not a student, not how many letters she or anyone else has after it? The main problem i have with her report is that it is very sweeping and general, giving overall statistics. For example there are 6 different types of bone cancer that can affect dogs, but her statistics just give total rates. Also, larger breeds such as Rottweilers, Labradors and Wolfhounds are far more likely to develop bone cancer than small breeds. Here are a few links that show no relation of early neutering to increased risk of bone cancer.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=575
http://www.dalmatians.us/cancer.htm
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=575

All written by vets(with the accompanying letters after their names ) but they are in the end, like your link, reports published on the internet.

Well if (and I'm only suggesting this to humour you) M.S. does in fact stand for medical student I'll hold my hands up but I am confident that it does not. Either way Laura's findings are supported by many in the veterinary profession.
I have already listed other cancers, skin and joint disorders as well as just bone cancer which increased with early spay / neutering and whether it is an overview or not all bone cancers are serious, life threatening illnesses and any increase in their frequency should be investigated.
Your first and third link are the same and basically just give an overview of Lymphonia so I don't know what that is supposed to prove? Your second study bases its stats on 50 year old information and actively admits that there is newer information out there and when talking about bone tumours admits that there are hormonal factors associated with this disease so surely leaving your dog to mature before spaying or neutering them would help with this?
At the end of the day you can go to and fro with this study and that, most of which I have already read but when it comes down to it, imo removing vital hormones needed for correct growth and development early in a dogs development stage cannot result in anything good and for what?the sake of leaving a dog intact for an extra 12-14 months, it just makes sense to me.

lrushe

Beekay wrote: »

I know this is OT but How long will the dog be at the vets when getting them spayed?

Usually practice is to drop the dog down in the morning and pick up in the evening.

Graces7

lrushe wrote: »

Well if (and I'm only suggesting this to humour you) M.S. does in fact stand for medical student I'll hold my hands up but I am confident that it does not. Either way Laura's findings are supported by many in the veterinary profession.
I have already listed other cancers, skin and joint disorders as well as just bone cancer which increased with early spay / neutering and whether it is an overview or not all bone cancers are serious, life threatening illnesses and any increase in their frequency should be investigated.
Your first and third link are the same and basically just give an overview of Lymphonia so I don't know what that is supposed to prove? Your second study bases its stats on 50 year old information and actively admits that there is newer information out there and when talking about bone tumours admits that there are hormonal factors associated with this disease so surely leaving your dog to mature before spaying or neutering them would help with this?
At the end of the day you can go to and fro with this study and that, most of which I have already read but when it comes down to it, imo removing vital hormones needed for correct growth and development early in a dogs development stage cannot result in anything good and for what?the sake of leaving a dog intact for an extra 12-14 months, it just makes sense to me.

This is the crux, is it not? All your posts speak of "my opinion" and " to me"
Rather than trusting the experience of good breeders over decades of breeding, caring people who love their dogs and have the finest reputation. eg our family.

Reproductive hormones in dogs are not essential for what you call "correct development". I think you are confusing this with eg growth hormones which are produced eg in the brain. All reproductive hormones do is stimulate reproduction; period.

Cannot use the words family used when I read your posts to them!

But to spay and neuter later, and as late as you do is unwise and even unkind.

For males, as soon as the testicles descend is the optimum time. NB it occurred to me that that is also the time good farmers use for lambs and other animal not to be used for breeding; they can be dealt with faster and with much less stress to the animal. And with better physical results as per body weight etc.

Miss Lockhart

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Was thinking about spaying at around 10 months for my West Highland Terrier, should I wait longer or would she be fully developed at this age (with small dogs maturing faster)

Please ask a vet you trust for advice - not random people on the internet.

lrushe wrote: »

Well if (and I'm only suggesting this to humour you) M.S. does in fact stand for medical student I'll hold my hands up but I am confident that it does not. Either way Laura's findings are supported by many in the veterinary profession.
I have already listed other cancers, skin and joint disorders as well as just bone cancer which increased with early spay / neutering and whether it is an overview or not all bone cancers are serious, life threatening illnesses and any increase in their frequency should be investigated.
Your first and third link are the same and basically just give an overview of Lymphonia so I don't know what that is supposed to prove? Your second study bases its stats on 50 year old information and actively admits that there is newer information out there and when talking about bone tumours admits that there are hormonal factors associated with this disease so surely leaving your dog to mature before spaying or neutering them would help with this?
At the end of the day you can go to and fro with this study and that, most of which I have already read but when it comes down to it, imo removing vital hormones needed for correct growth and development early in a dogs development stage cannot result in anything good and for what?the sake of leaving a dog intact for an extra 12-14 months, it just makes sense to me.

I can find absolutely no evidence at all of that.

Where is that article you linked to originally published - you said you have a hard copy? I have access to all reputable vet journals and the vast majority of biomedical science journals and I cannot find it published or even cited anywhere. Nor can I find any other articles published by Laura J Sanborn MS.

Now, my research skills may not be the best - and I'm genuinely interested to read this information if it is peer reviewed.

lrushe

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

This is the crux, is it not? All your posts speak of "my opinion" and " to me"
Rather than trusting the experience of good breeders over decades of breeding, caring people who love their dogs and have the finest reputation. eg our family.

Reproductive hormones in dogs are not essential for what you call "correct development". I think you are confusing this with eg growth hormones which are produced eg in the brain. All reproductive hormones do is stimulate reproduction; period.

Cannot use the words family used when I read your posts to them!

But to spay and neuter later, and as late as you do is unwise and even unkind.

For males, as soon as the testicles descend is the optimum time. NB it occurred to me that that is also the time good farmers use for lambs and other animal not to be used for breeding; they can be dealt with faster and with much less stress to the animal. And with better physical results as per body weight etc.

After reading research it is my opinion.
Hormones released while a dog is maturing absolutely effect the way it grows, you yourself have said the dogs your family breed become leggy, that is just one symptom, how do you know what's going on on the inside, you don't.
What makes you think your family's opinion holds anymore weight than mine, I've had dogs for over 25 years, my Dad has bred them for many more, your family are in no better a position than me, at least I've an open enough mind to look at both sides to come to my conclusion and yes I too have listened to breeders who are coming around to this way of thinking.
As for farm animals they are a totally different story, they are not expected to live as long a life as a dog so any long term effects on their health ie 8 years or older is not seen as important as a companion animal.

lrushe

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Now, my research skills may not be the best - and I'm genuinely interested to read this information if it is peer reviewed.

Re-read my earlier posts I've already mentioned 2.