Property tax

the long lad

There's a lot of talk in the media about the introduction of a property tax. What do we think? Will it happen? Should it happen?

The_Honeybadger

It will and it should, we are one of very few countries who don't have one. This is not a reason to introduce one in itself, but our tax base has been shattered and we have a 20bn deficit, and this is, if there was ever a time to introduce one it is now. Water charges are almost certainly on the way also, but they will hardly intoduce them together as there would be uproar. This is also a good thing IMO, people have absolutely no respect for running water here and waste it stupidly, perhaps if it hit them in the pocket they may be more careful, I would only be in favour of this if every house gets an free allowance and it is metered after that, no doubt we will simply get a flat charge giving people no incentive to use water sparingly. That said 50% or thereabouts is lost through poor water infrastructure before it even reaches our houses so this also needs sorting.

Welease

Why not just raise income tax?

Lets face it, half the country on low pay/pensions etc. will be exempt... any money spent will be eaten up implementing meters and processes... and at the end of the day the usual few tax payers will end up paying the bill anyway...

Add 1% to tax .. and stop coming up with retarded ways to pretend we are not increasing income tax..

Cookie_Monster

why raise income tax instead though?

not every owns or wants to own a house, those that do should pay. granted the stamp duty payments that have already been made will cause issue. there should be no exemption due to income levels, owning a house isn't linked to income

Welease

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why raise income tax instead though?

not every owns or wants to own a house, those that do should pay. granted the stamp duty payments that have already been made will cause issue. there should be no exemption due to income levels, owning a house isn't linked to income

I see your point, but as you say stamp duty has been paid.. (to my mind) this is not about taxing property for a specific reason, its about raising extra taxes.. so why not just go for income tax?

And by 1% i meant at the top rate (sorry wasn't clear)... I would imagine (but have no figures) the bulk of people paying top rate of tax own property (given our recent <cough> boom ).

ei.sdraob

mickeyk wrote: »

It will and it should, we are one of very few countries who don't have one. This is not a reason to introduce one in itself, but our tax base has been shattered and we have a 20bn deficit, and this is, if there was ever a time to introduce one it is now. Water charges are almost certainly on the way also, but they will hardly intoduce them together as there would be uproar. This is also a good thing IMO, people have absolutely no respect for running water here and waste it stupidly, perhaps if it hit them in the pocket they may be more careful, I would only be in favour of this if every house gets an free allowance and it is metered after that, no doubt we will simply get a flat charge giving people no incentive to use water sparingly. That said 50% or thereabouts is lost through poor water infrastructure before it even reaches our houses so this also needs sorting.

both UK and US etc have property taxes

didnt stop them getting into huge property bubble either

danbohan

Welease wrote: »

I see your point, but as you say stamp duty has been paid.. (to my mind) this is not about taxing property for a specific reason, its about raising extra taxes.. so why not just go for income tax?

And by 1% i meant at the top rate (sorry wasn't clear)... I would imagine (but have no figures) the bulk of people paying top rate of tax own property (given our recent <cough> boom ).

because they will have raise income taxes too and probably by a lot more than 1% , maybe not this year . their is no other way that the borrowing can be reduced / maintained otherwise unless you target the untouchables ie the public sector and sw in a dramatic way

Welease

danbohan wrote: »

because they will have raise income taxes too and probably by a lot more than 1% , maybe not this year . their is no other way that the borrowing can be reduced / maintained otherwise unless you target the untouchables ie the public sector and sw in a dramatic way

Absolutely.. it sucks .. but thats the facts..

I just personally don't want to see us implement various other taxes where we spend the bulk of the receipts on collection and admin methods. I'm sorry to say it, but I have no confidence in our government to implement a metering solution that doesn't suck up a large chunk of the potential revenue.

Dannyboy83

Water tax - fine as long as it's ringfenced and used to improve water system. But it won't be.
Do the people around Galway with poisonous water get refunds etc.?

Property tax - bit of a nightmare scenario really. Don't believe it should apply to primary residences. I don't think they have property tax in the UK, they have council tax. Money is ringfenced.

Aren't they considering pay per mile now in the UK for car owners?
I wonder if rural dwellers will get a discount on their property tax since their homes will probably plummet in value.

jock101

Property taxes should be introduced in the 2010 December Budget, but only for people earning 40k plus. Social welfare recipients, immigrants and working class people should be exempt.:) The annual rate should be 5pc of the 2005 price of your home, which would be a fair amount to bolster the States revenues.

Welease

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Property tax - bit of a nightmare scenario really. Don't believe it should apply to primary residences. I don't think they have property tax in the UK, they have council tax. Money is ringfenced.

Yes, the UK have council tax.. which hasn't been updated since it was initially implemented. It's used to fund local council expenditure <cough> (street lighting, police etc.).. My last house in the UK was sold for 250K but we still paid council tax rate of 70K as per when they did the initial surveys..

The tax is used to pay no "house" related items, so why bother to pay a house related tax.. Everyone house owner or not, is using the money that it costs to run this country, so why should only house owners pay?

jock101

Welease wrote: »

Yes, the UK have council tax.. which hasn't been updated since it was initially implemented. It's used to fund local council expenditure <cough> (street lighting, police etc.).. My last house in the UK was sold for 250K but we still paid council tax rate of 70K as per when they did the initial surveys..

The tax is used to pay no "house" related items, so why bother to pay a house related tax.. Everyone house owner or not, is using the money that it costs to run this country, so why should only house owners pay?

The UK was an attractive place near Ireland to move too, but with all the new laws and taxes and now this Movement tax, coming soon! AKA Road Pricing. I think it may be time to go across the big splash!

Sam Kade

jock101 wrote: »

Property taxes should be introduced in the 2010 December Budget, but only for people earning 40k plus. Social welfare recipients, immigrants and working class people should be exempt.:) The annual rate should be 5pc of the 2005 price of your home, which would be a fair amount to bolster the States revenues.

So with your plan someone earning €40,000 a year with a house worth €300,000 in 2005 could end up paying €15,000 a year.

mikom

jock101 wrote: »

The annual rate should be 5pc of the 2005 price of your home, which would be a fair amount to bolster the States revenues.

Cowens gonna love you.

mikemac

jock101 wrote: »

Property taxes should be introduced in the 2010 December Budget, but only for people earning 40k plus. Social welfare recipients, immigrants and working class people should be exempt.:)

You think somebody on over 40k is rich?
They are just over the higher tax threshold and it can even work out that they take home less then somebody who earns less then they do as they get hit with 41%

It's people in this gap who pay the highest percentage of income to tax and qualify for pretty much no support from the government, they pay for everything!

Welease

Well lets look at it another way....

There appears plenty of people who somewhat support this tax, and feel those who own properties should pay extra to run this country.. I am going to assume they are in rental properties or live with their parents.

Lots of people in this country are stuck with massive amounts of negative equity.. Given our normal tax system, this should allow them credits against any potential property tax...

The tax is being used to run this country, not for specific "house" related work.

So why not bring everyone into the net as we all benefit from the runnign of this country, and create an asset tax.. You pay your fair share to run this country based on all your assets and savings...

I'm wondering if this would get the same level of support?

(or just scrap the whole rediculous plan and up income tax)...

jock101

feelingstressed wrote: »

You think somebody on over 40k is rich?
They are just over the higher tax threshold and it can even work out that they take home less then somebody who earns less then they do as they get hit with 41%

It's people in this gap who pay the highest percentage of income to tax and qualify for pretty much no support from the government, they pay for everything!

So whats wrong with that, it should be more!:rolleyes:

Welease

jock101 wrote: »

So whats wrong with that, it should be more!:rolleyes:

I'm guessing under your rules you would be exempt...

ei.sdraob

jock101 wrote: »

So whats wrong with that, it should be more!:rolleyes:

yes lets kill the will to work altogether

we can all sit on the dole using even more borrowed money

mikemac

jock101 wrote: »

So whats wrong with that, it should be more!:rolleyes:

You say immigrants, working class people and people on social welfare are exempt.

What's working class anyway, here was me thinking this was a Republic.
If you mean tradesmen then for the last number of years, many earned far, far more then 40k.
I can't list working class and other jobs, I wouldn't even try so I hope you have a list.

And immigrants like the many doctors we have are all on more then 40k, but they are exempt if they own a house?

Posting nonsense, all I know is under your plan you are exempt.
Tell me, do you even pay 41% tax and watch it the rich and the "most vulnerable in society" tell you how lucky you are to have a job but nobody at all seems to represent you, except plan more taxes

jock101

Well tax revenue has to be collected to keep the State from collapse. There's nothing else to tax.:rolleyes:

mikemac

You're very fond of the one line replies with a :rolleyes:

Fine so, bring in the property tax but I still don't see exemptions for your "immigrants, working class people and people on social welfare"

Every special interest group is trying to get out of paying, I'm sure you're in there somewhere,
The "rich" people on over 40k will pay for it, so it's pretty much income tax anyway, they are the people already paying the most tax

Welease

feelingstressed wrote: »

The "rich" people on over 40k will pay for it, so it's pretty much income tax anyway, they are the people already paying the most tax

Spot on.. lets just be open about screwing the people who actually pay for cleaning up the mess in the country.

jock101

feelingstressed wrote: »

You're very fond of the one line replies with a :rolleyes:

Fine so, bring in the property tax but I still don't see exemptions for your "immigrants, working class people and people on social welfare"

Every special interest group is trying to get out of paying, I'm sure you're in there somewhere,
The "rich" people on over 40k will pay for it, so it's pretty much income tax anyway, they are the people already paying the most tax

Of course I am, its just that the State cant screw/rape me!:rolleyes::D

mikom

jock101 wrote: »

Of course I am, its just that the State cant screw/rape me!:rolleyes::D

Rats deserting a sinking ship are rarely taxed.

jock101

mikom wrote: »

Rats deserting a sinking ship are rarely taxed.

How true, Cayman Islands/Ansbacher accounts etc...
Up the Republic!

mikom

jock101 wrote: »

How true, Cayman Islands/Ansbacher accounts etc...
Up the Republic!

jock101 wrote: »

I have decided to emirgrate in the next year. I was planning on going to the UK, but with all the New taxes and cuts coming over there, and this proposed new Road pricing. No Thanks, so what other English speaking Country's would be a good option?

Does not compute.....

lmimmfn

no doubt it will be 3000euro a year regardless of your home and location and you only pay it if youre not on welfare, state pension only and if you earn less that 100k, because the poor developers under siege from Nama and creditors cant afford the 3000euro on their 1m euro homes lol

Really is there going to be any incentive to work whatsoever by 2012? i worked out what the story would be if the wife took 2 years off work to look after the kid on the way, we'd both be better off on welfare lmfao

jock101

mikom wrote: »

Does not compute.....

Its called being sarcastic!:rolleyes:

Like anyone who wants a future. An exit strategy is advisable:rolleyes:.

mikom

jock101 wrote: »

Its called being sarcastic!:rolleyes:

Like anyone who wants a future. An exit strategy is advisable:rolleyes:.

Be careful....... if they were taxing rolleyes on this thread, you'd be penniless.

jock101

mikom wrote: »

Be careful....... if they were taxing rolleyes on this thread, you'd be penniless.

Sure I already am!;):rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Oh no im in negative equity:eek:

Tinker13

I can't see the logic for property tax, including the 'other countries have it' argument.

By this logic all assets should be taxed, i.e. someone with €100k in the bank should pay x% p.a. in tax, (plus DIRT tax on the interest) - as per comment below.

Landlords should of course be taxed on their rental income but, isn't this happening already?

Welease wrote: »

So why not bring everyone into the net as we all benefit from the running of this country, and create an asset tax.. You pay your fair share to run this country based on all your assets and savings...
.

CoalBucket

The government tax almost everything I can think of. They need to raise more cash to get us out of the sh*t they created.

One of the few assets that do not have an annual tax on is property, so they have decided to call it property tax.

If they decide that more tax is needed the next time they find out more sh*te from the banks they will introduce another tax. Possibly Air tax, sleep tax or any other name they choose.

jock101

Tinker13 wrote: »

I can't see the logic for property tax, including the 'other countries have it' argument.

By this logic all assets should be taxed, i.e. someone with €100k in the bank should pay x% p.a. in tax, (plus DIRT tax on the interest).

Landlords should of course be taxed on their rental income but, isn't this happening already?

Well your Home is the Biggest asset most mere mortals have, that hasnt been hit with a tax. The second biggest asset, your car has been taxed to death!:( That asset cant take anymore tax and the Enemy(Government) know that!

mikom

jock101 wrote: »

The second biggest asset, your car has been taxed to death!

Truth be told, a car is not really an asset.

jock101

mikom wrote: »

Truth be told, a car is not really an asset.

What would you call it? Most people put there car just behind there Home!. As personal assets.

Tinker13

jock101 wrote: »

Well your Home is the Biggest asset most mere mortals have, that hasnt been hit with a tax. The second biggest asset, your car has been taxed to death!:( That asset cant take anymore tax and the Enemy(Government) know that!

I can see the logic for Road Tax, pay as you use tolls etc. although I know the argument about money not being used for roads, etc. etc.

I can also see the logic for Bin Charges, Water Charges and household taxes.

Still not convinced that taxing an asset that is just sitting there makes sense.

jock101

Tinker13 wrote: »

I can see the logic for Road Tax, pay as you use tolls etc. although I know the argument about money not being used for roads, etc. etc.

I can also see the logic for Bin Charges, Water Charges and household taxes.

Still not convinced that taxing an asset that is just sitting there makes sense.

Again what else is left! The 80+ billion in saving accounts in Irish banks!

Just an idea!:)

mikom

jock101 wrote: »

What would you call it? Most people put there car just behind there Home!. As personal assets.

Depends if its current value is greater than what you owe on it

Don't forget maintenance, fuel, insurance, road tax, NCT, tolls.

With many older cars the annual running costs may be greater than the value of the car.

Some asset.

jock101

Just accept it, and pay up!

danbohan

lmimmfn wrote: »

no doubt it will be 3000euro a year regardless of your home and location and you only pay it if youre not on welfare, state pension only and if you earn less that 100k, because the poor developers under siege from Nama and creditors cant afford the 3000euro on their 1m euro homes lol

Really is there going to be any incentive to work whatsoever by 2012? i worked out what the story would be if the wife took 2 years off work to look after the kid on the way, we'd both be better off on welfare lmfao

which is exactly why the lunacy that is irish welfare system needs to be severly curtailed !

Cookie_Monster

mikom wrote: »

Truth be told, a car is not really an asset.

Of course its an asset. just because it may not be worth anything does not mean it is not an asset.
Its also an expensive asset to maintain but an asset none the less.

As I mentioned earlies in this thread I am fully behind a property tax. There are of course a number of difficulties in bringing it in such as previously paid stamp duty and valuations. The obsession with owning property in this country is also a barrier as so many think they are simply entitled to own a house and not have to pay anything apart from the purchase price.

maybe basing it on square metre rather than perceived property value might be a better way to deal with it.

The problem of course is that any tax raised will just disappear into the black hole in the Dept of Finance. It would be nice to think there would be some form of limited ring fencing of this to infrastructure or local services, much like the water metering should be ring-fenced for water infrastructure.

Tinker13

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

...many think they are simply entitled to own a house and not have to pay anything apart from the purchase price.

:eek:What's wrong with that!

As I said earlier, I'm in favour of then making contributions after this for the local amenities such as refuse and water.

ei.sdraob

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

maybe basing it on square metre rather than perceived property value might be a better way to deal with it.

that would create a huge rift between city dwellers and country dwellers

mikom

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

maybe basing it on square metre rather than perceived property value might be a better way to deal with it.

Great for apartment dwellers............

gandalf

A property tax at the moment would be a disaster. People are hanging on by their finger nails and this could be the straw that breaks the camels back for many. I also do not see the rank and file in FF supporting this given they are lined up for a severe raping at the next election already. Adding property tax to this could ensure the party plummet to a level that they never recover from.

I would say the most likely outcome is that tax thresholds will be lowered bringing a lot more people into the tax net and I feel that is the fairest way to raise the funds that they need.

A property tax needs to be brought in but when finances have recovered and when people can actually afford it. It also needs to be brought in with a simple method of calculation that has the least amount of bureaucratic cost to the state otherwise its pointless (just another excuse to bloat the PS even more).

GUIGuy

Well I don't have a problem with it per se, but I think it should be on the value of the equity in the property and not the value of the mortgage.

If they do that then at least they can target those who have some capital rather than debt... taxing debt is daft!

jock101

GUIGuy wrote: »

Well I don't have a problem with it per se, but I think it should be on the value of the equity in the property and not the value of the mortgage.

If they do that then at least they can target those who have some capital rather than debt... taxing debt is daft!

Having the privilege of owning your own home is Capital AKA an Asset.
Its not the Dails fault that the market price has fallen!

Tinker13

GUIGuy wrote: »

...I think it should be on the value of the equity in the property and not the value of the mortgage...

Why? ... and what about someone who has remortgaged their house?

jock101

It definitely should be a higher rate for South Dublin postal code area's:D

Cookie_Monster

jock101 wrote: »

It definitely should be a higher rate for South Dublin postal code area's:D

why?

I think it should be higher for once off properties in the country that are not directly linked to working farmlands. these people have to be subsidised massively by the rest of us for roads and services (phone, gas, elec, water lines and pipes & waste collection). but that ain't gonna happen either.