Iarnrod Eireann and Imperial measurements

Run_to_da_hills

I noticed the railway networks in Ireland, both surburban and mainline are dotted with imperial flag stones and mileage indications. Some look as if they go back to Victorian times others look very recent like this one in Glenageary.



Why do Iarnrod Eireann still use miles? Is it a "railway thing" or would it be just too much hassle to change over to Kilometers?

.

mikemac

I get the train from Nenagh to Dublin and return and have spotted the milestones along the route.

Yes, these go back to Victorian times when the line was built.
I would think it's best to have one system on the railway network, I don't want my driver wondering if it's 2 miles or 2km to the brakeing point for the next station.

I'd welcome a move to the metric system but then every milestone and sign should be replaced and realy, Irish Rail have better things to spend their money on.
You can have imperial or metric on your signs but from a safety point of view, never a mix and match of both.

Run_to_da_hills

feelingstressed wrote: »

I get the train from Nenagh to Dublin and return and have spotted the milestones along the route.

Yes, these go back to Victorian times when the line was built.
I would think it's best to have one system on the railway network, I don't want my driver wondering if it's 2 miles or 2km to the brakeing point for the next station.

I'd welcome a move to the metric system but then every milestone and sign should be replaced and realy, Irish Rail have better things to spend their money on.

I actually prefere the Imperial syatem myself, you know when you are doing the ton.

mikemac

You sound like my Dad

"Ah Dad, I drove my motorbike down the M7, here in Tipp in no time, did 120 the whole way
"120??:eek: You'll be buried before me son"
"120 km per hour, it's the national speed limit you know......"

Ah old timers, they stopped teaching the imperial system decades ago, even more then 30 years ago.
And still the tile shops sell tiles per square yard?

Oops, going offtopic here

foggy_lad

Imagine the strikes and the extra payments and training bonuses that would have to be paid for drivers to switch to metric!

Irish rail could never afford that!

mikemac

Bus Eireann introduced new buses with metric speedometers and never a hint of industrial action. Dublin Bus too, they have many new buses.
That's two out of three branches of CIE.

Are Irish Rail so militant? I wouldn't think they'd strike over this.
Give them a bit of credit, no union would be able to justify a strike here, you're throwing out a stereotype

NedNew2

The definitely should add km markers. Leave some of the old milestone markers there, no need to take them out but just add new distinctive km markers or else cover the milestone markers with km markings.

To me its symptomatic of IE as an old-fashioned lumbering state run monopoly that miles are still used.

Any new train that I have seen is calibrated in km/h.

Speed limits signs on the railways should be changed immediately to km/h.

In this day and age its silly to have miles and mph but then again it is Iarnrod Eireann.

AlekSmart

Imagine the strikes and the extra payments and training bonuses that would have to be paid for drivers to switch to metric!

And that`s without even thinking of the extra millions that Bus Eireann`s drivers would want to drop their suspensions a few Millimetres....Boom agus Boom !!!

Shaneboyle

If its not broken don't fix it.

Sure foggy_lad speaks the truth IE don't like change unless its lifting rails or building a rail corridor Limerick - Galway were the car is faster and there is no night/evening trains

steamengine

Could you ever imagine walking into a pub and saying to the bar person, "May I have 0.568 of a litre of Guinness please" ?

D'Peoples Voice

steamengine wrote: »

Could you ever imagine walking into a pub and saying to the bar person, "May I have 0.568 of a litre of Guinness please" ?

for us real men, we just ask for a Guinness or a beer,
and the barman will know we're talking about a pint.

Says a lot about someone when they need to tell the barman that they are able to drink a pint!:-)

As regards IE changing over, well I think its actually suits IE not to change over, it sums up their resistance to anything that might be deemed progressive!

Judgement Day

If it ain't broke don't fix it. If CIE/IE started replacing mileposts with metric signs the same people would be on about them wasting money. No doubt they will go down this road at some time in the future anyway.

foggy_lad

we all know from past experience of even the smallest changes with any cie company the chaos it can cause with strikes and minor disputes escalating, but putting all that aside there is also a very serious safety issue with a switch to metric as drivers and other track maintenance people are all used to working with imperial measurements and i cant see a switch to metric being smooth as humans by our design are not suited to such drastic changes

Hungerford

Judgement Day wrote: »

If it ain't broke don't fix it. If CIE/IE started replacing mileposts with metric signs the same people would be on about them wasting money. No doubt they will go down this road at some time in the future anyway.

There is also the issue of the cross-border railway line - I doubt NIR would convert to metric alongside CIE/IE. It's probably better just to stay with miles - otherwise there would be literally thousands of signs to replace - there's a milepost marker every 1/4 mile.

trad

They still have mile posts up around Bray for the Harcourt Street line and that closed in 1958.

Judgement Day

trad wrote: »

They still have mile posts up around Bray for the Harcourt Street line and that closed in 1958.

From Shanganagh Junction to Rosslare Strand is measured from Harcourt Street but it matters not as the the details are in the Working Timetable and Appendix to the Working Timetable. The line between Rosslare Strand and Rosslare Harbour is measured from Mallow via Waterford/Lismore/Fermoy and that's gone since 1967.

Cookie_Monster

should have been done at the same time the road system was but since it wassn't I see no real reason to do it now. All the rolling stock will have speedos calibrated in MPH and it really only affects a very small number of poeple, namely train drivers, rather than roads where the number is much greater.

The only possible concern would be drivers being used to KPH in cars and MPH on rails and may mix them up...

NedNew2

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

should have been done at the same time the road system was but since it wassn't I see no real reason to do it now. All the rolling stock will have speedos calibrated in MPH and it really only affects a very small number of poeple, namely train drivers, rather than roads where the number is much greater.

The only possible concern would be drivers being used to KPH in cars and MPH on rails and may mix them up...

The new rolling stock is calibrated it km/h although there may well be in miles on the minor/inner scale.

It's not a big deal to change, leave the mileposts alone, just add new km posts - if even they are needed at all. The only thing that really needs to change is the speed limit signs.

The cost would be a tiny fraction of the road changeover cost. The argument of maintaining mph because of Northern Ireland is also totally moot as the road changeover showed no problems in this regard.

The point of safety also has no merit - there was no safety problems when we switched to km/h on the roads, in fact it removed confusion and may have enhanced safety.

In fact any argument mentioned in favour of maintaining the status quo of MPH on the rails has already been argued during the time of the road changeover - and we all know how successful that was.

We have had the recent experience of the 2005 road speed limit change to illustrate quite clearly that its a logical and safe thing to do.

But as someone already mentioned the idea of progression and Iarnrod Eireann don't really go together and to me their use of MPH always illustrates this clearly.

Run_to_da_hills

One solution would let the old school drivers that drive older GM stock work in miles while the newer DMU and Darts work in KM.

I can remember as a kid going to school watching the chronometric mileometer in the AEC railcars, in those days you could look out the front.

kingshankly

why change what Benefit would there be, absolute none just cost money to change ie new posts retraining etc and could lead to misunderstandings which can be detremental to safety.

popebenny16

i am more annoyed by them changing from the stone mileposts to the bland metal signs.

Run_to_da_hills

kingshankly wrote: »

why change what Benefit would there be, absolute none just cost money to change ie new posts retraining etc and could lead to misunderstandings which can be detremental to safety.

Unless we get some fool in Brussels insisting on a change,

KC61

I don't think that this really has anything to do with IE being stuck in the past and I think people are showing a serious lack of understanding of how a railway works in suggesting that.

I would imagine it has more to do with running a safe railway.

1) All permanent way records would be documented in miles and chains
2) Safety - drivers/PW staff's knowledge of routes is partly based on mileposts and the mileage locations

To redo all of that has far greater implications for safety than simply changing all of the roadsigns on our national roads network as happened a few years back.

The sheer cost alone in updating thousands of records to do this would be horrific, but I would seriously suggest that it could actually compromise safety to do so.

trad

Lets face it anyone using a car more than 5 years old is using MPH instear of KMH. We didn't all rush out and change our speedometers just because the speed limits went metric.

HGV's and Buses have being using metric speedometers (tachographs) since the 80's so where's the arguement for changing to metric. Incidently I served my time as an apprentice fitter with CIE in the mid 70's and we were taught metric measurements then.

GM071class

In terms of measurement for mechanical purposes they use metric.

But in terms of the railway lines themselves, they still use Miles and Chains.

Chains in particular used to measure the Radii of curves, and when a milage doesn't end evenly on a half, quarter, or whole mile.

Just to let you's know,
1 Chain = 66 feet or 22 yards,
80 Chains = 1 Mile.

I think it's just Ireland & the UK that use them,

Cookie_Monster

trad wrote: »

Lets face it anyone using a car more than 5 years old is using MPH instear of KMH. We didn't all rush out and change our speedometers just because the speed limits went metric.

I certainly tried but couldn't get it done by Nissan at the time.

NedNew2

KC61 wrote: »

I don't think that this really has anything to do with IE being stuck in the past and I think people are showing a serious lack of understanding of how a railway works in suggesting that.

I would imagine it has more to do with running a safe railway.

1) All permanent way records would be documented in miles and chains
2) Safety - drivers/PW staff's knowledge of routes is partly based on mileposts and the mileage locations

To redo all of that has far greater implications for safety than simply changing all of the roadsigns on our national roads network as happened a few years back.

The sheer cost alone in updating thousands of records to do this would be horrific, but I would seriously suggest that it could actually compromise safety to do so.

Nobody except yourself mentioned having to redo all permanent way records except yourself. Leave them as they are.

Second point - I don't see what that has got to do with safety, I'm sure they are equally familiar with km since to drive at all on our roads would mean such.

This is not a 'massive' job. No need to change old records, no need to take out the old mileposts, no need to change tachometers, no reason why 'safety' is being compromised. Just need to change speed limit signs and over time gradually add km post markers.

Using your arguments nothing would ever change or improve. Luckily the NRA are far more aware than decrepit Iarnrod Eireann.

Judgement Day

There is so much wrong on Irish railways that messing about with mileposts would be akin to moving around the deckchairs on the Titanic. What tangible benefit would it bring to taxpayers or passengers?

KC61

NedNew2 wrote: »

Nobody except yourself mentioned having to redo all permanent way records except yourself. Leave them as they are.

Second point - I don't see what that has got to do with safety, I'm sure they are equally familiar with km since to drive at all on our roads would mean such.

This is not a 'massive' job. No need to change old records, no need to take out the old mileposts, no need to change tachometers, no reason why 'safety' is being compromised. Just need to change speed limit signs and over time gradually add km post markers.

Using your arguments nothing would ever change or improve. Luckily the NRA are far more aware than decrepit Iarnrod Eireann.

All I did was explain why this particular change hasn't happened. Sorry for perhaps trying to enlighten you.

I would comment that operating and maintaining a rail network is completely different to maintaining a road network - particularly from a safety perspective.

Bogger77

Change for the sake of updating a measurement system that's in use for hundreds of year, just because a totally different form of transport uses KM is, in my honest opinion, NUTS.

Why don't we change the way aircraft industry measure altitude and distances? All western aircraft use Feet and miles. Flight levels are given in thousands of feet.
What about watercraft? they use knots/speed for distance, again an non metric system

Since water, rail and air do not use metric, I, therefore, propose that road travel revert to the existing standard of measurement, imperial.

BTW: Ireland's railways were the first truly metric gauge systems, at 1600mm (5ft3in). Standard gauge as used in the most metric of countries, France is 1435mm, which is 4ft 8 1/2inches.

Ham'nd'egger

This topic comes up here every so often. Yes, we as a State use metric to measure speed, roads etc and that's fair enough.

However those people who think our rail network ought to change to metric when it has zero benefit or loss to passengers and staff alike have yet to make any reasonable reason why it should be changed internally. In fact one good reason to leave it be is that drivers and train staff have formulae for working out train speed without the use of speedometers based on the mileposts of old (It's for back up if instruments are not working and in the case of guards in lieu of same). To attempt to change this after 170 years would be hazardous at best and yes it could be adapted for metric but for no beneficial good; if anything it would cost confusion if KM posts or speeds were misread or mixed up. Finicky? Yes but no more finicky than the case to change.

Metric or Imperial, it's still the same rate of speed no matter how it is measured while Cork remains the same distance from Heuston.

GM071class

Bogger77 wrote: »

Change for the sake of updating a measurement system that's in use for hundreds of year, just because a totally different form of transport uses KM is, in my honest opinion, NUTS.

Why don't we change the way aircraft industry measure altitude and distances? All western aircraft use Feet and miles. Flight levels are given in thousands of feet.
What about watercraft? they use knots/speed for distance, again an non metric system

Since water, rail and air do not use metric, I, therefore, propose that road travel revert to the existing standard of measurement, imperial.

BTW: Ireland's railways were the first truly metric gauge systems, at 1600cm (5ft3in). Standard gauge as used in the most metric of countries, France is 1435cm, which is 4ft 8 1/2inches.

Don't forget though we'd need to 'update' Shipping Measurements too...

How many Kilometers are in 1 Knot (nautical mile)

steamengine

GM071class wrote: »

Don't forget though we'd need to 'update' Shipping Measurements too...

How many Kilometers are in 1 Knot (nautical mile)

1 UK nautical mile = 1.85318 kilometres
1 International nautical mile = 1.852 kilometres

Didn't know there were 2 types until now , although the difference is very small.

In any case, if the aero/marine world are sticking with Imperial, no reason why the railway world should change IMO.

We'll be still drinking pints, and buying pounds of sausages for years to come.;)

Cookie_Monster

a knot is based on the curvature of the earth, and a degrees there of or something isin't it? not really imperial


EDIT:

The nautical mile (symbol M, NM, Nm or nmi) is a unit of length corresponding approximately to one minute of arc of latitude along any meridian.

Bogger77

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

a knot is based on the curvature of the earth, and a degrees there of or something isin't it? not really imperial


EDIT:

it's more imperial than metric

steamengine

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

a knot is based on the curvature of the earth, and a degrees there of or something isin't it? not really imperial

Quote = The nautical mile (symbol M, NM, Nm or nmi) is a unit of length corresponding approximately to one minute of arc of latitude along any meridian.

Yep thats it AFAIK. 60 minutes in a degree, so if you divide the circumference of the earth (at the equator) by 360 and then further divide by 60 it should give 6080 feet which is one nautical mile.

GM071class

steamengine wrote: »

The nautical mile (symbol M, NM, Nm or nmi) is a unit of length corresponding approximately to one minute of arc of latitude along any meridian.

Yep thats it AFAIK. 60 minutes in a degree of latitude, so if you divide the circumference of the earth by 360 and then further divide by 60 it should give 6080 feet which is one nautical mile.

I'm going to have to remeber that since I'm going for a Career at sea.....:)

eejoynt

Judgement Day wrote: »

From Shanganagh Junction to Rosslare Strand is measured from Harcourt Street but it matters not as the the details are in the Working Timetable and Appendix to the Working Timetable. The line between Rosslare Strand and Rosslare Harbour is measured from Mallow via Waterford/Lismore/Fermoy and that's gone since 1967.

I think you will find that the posts run from shanganagh to wexford
wexford to rosslare strand is mileposted seperately

spacetweek

Bogger77 wrote: »

Change for the sake of updating a measurement system that's in use for hundreds of year, just because a totally different form of transport uses KM is, in my honest opinion, NUTS.

Why don't we change the way aircraft industry measure altitude and distances? All western aircraft use Feet and miles. Flight levels are given in thousands of feet.
What about watercraft? they use knots/speed for distance, again an non metric system

Since water, rail and air do not use metric, I, therefore, propose that road travel revert to the existing standard of measurement, imperial.

BTW: Ireland's railways were the first truly metric gauge systems, at 1600mm (5ft3in). Standard gauge as used in the most metric of countries, France is 1435mm, which is 4ft 8 1/2inches.

Fairly inaccurate there.

Watercraft on rivers and canals in Ireland have used km/h and km for distance for decades now. The aviation industry is out of our control as it's imperial due to international regulations that we can't change. Also even metric countries like France use feet for airplane height.

The 1600 mm gauge is a coincidence as the metric system wasn't used at the time. They chose 5'3" and it just turned out to be a round number of mils.

Quite simply, the railways need to be changed to km because that's the dominant unit used here. Sure, there are oldtimers but they won't be around forever.

steamengine wrote: »

1 UK nautical mile = 1.85318 kilometres
1 International nautical mile = 1.852 kilometres

Didn't know there were 2 types until now , although the difference is very small.

There aren't; the UK replaced their nautical mile with the international one in the 50's I believe.

steamengine wrote: »

In any case, if the aero/marine world are sticking with Imperial, no reason why the railway world should change IMO.

Hardly a very compelling argument.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Unless we get some fool in Brussels insisting on a change,

That would never happen - contrary to popular belief, there has never been any significant pressure from the EU to get Ireland and the UK to use km. And since 2007, none at all - as the requirement to set a date was removed. Ireland is pursuing this strategy because we just want to. No one is making us.

Judgement Day

eejoynt wrote: »

I think you will find that the posts run from shanganagh to wexford
wexford to rosslare strand is mileposted seperately

Not according to my volume of Irish Railways Traction & Travel (4th edition) which shows them as being measured from Harcourt Street but I'm not going up to Shanganagh to check for you.

merengueca

NedNew2 wrote: »

Nobody except yourself mentioned having to redo all permanent way records except yourself. Leave them as they are.

Second point - I don't see what that has got to do with safety, I'm sure they are equally familiar with km since to drive at all on our roads would mean such.

This is not a 'massive' job. No need to change old records, no need to take out the old mileposts, no need to change tachometers, no reason why 'safety' is being compromised. Just need to change speed limit signs and over time gradually add km post markers.

Using your arguments nothing would ever change or improve. Luckily the NRA are far more aware than decrepit Iarnrod Eireann.

It is indeed a 'massive' job. The replacment of mileposts etc presents no challenge, rather the coralating of historic data against the new measurement system, change all pre printed standard forms, re education of staff , upload of new software and hardware into all OTP's and Engineering trains and total over haul of all IT systems to work with the new unit of measure.


With reference to the safety implication - again 'massive'! The exact mileages are the key markers for engineers to identify work and defects, it is critical that we have auditable trails of all work carried out and the only precise way on a linear asset to record this data is through the mileage (eg 93m1540y) even the best controlled change over from Imperial to Metric will cause some level of corruption in the data.

It isn't impossible, but will be a difficult and very expensive process, for what benefit? If it's just about giving an appearance of a forward thinking company I'm sure IE could replace the 1/4 and 1/2 posts with 440m or 880m so we can all pretend that its metric and only those to this actually matters would know the terrible truth:D

Ham'nd'egger

Judgement Day wrote: »

Not according to my volume of Irish Railways Traction & Travel (4th edition) which shows them as being measured from Harcourt Street but I'm not going up to Shanganagh to check for you.

According to Railway Lines of CIE and NIR, it's as follows...

• Connolly to Pearse is 1 to 0.
• Pearse to Shanganagh Junction is 0-12.
• Shanganagh Junction to Wexford station is 10 1/2-92 3/4
• Wexford station to Rosslare Strand is 6 1/4-0
• Rosslare Strand to Rosslare Harbour station is 110 3/4-113 3/4

steamengine

spacetweek wrote: »

Watercraft on rivers and canals in Ireland have used km/h and km for distance for decades now.

That is the marine leisure craft industry, hardly the bench mark to be used. The real professional marine world operate as one would expect, using nautical miles as distance measurement and knots as speed measurement, amongst other derivitive units eg cables and fathoms.

spacetweek wrote: »

Quite simply, the railways need to be changed to km because that's the dominant unit used here.

Only the dominant unit on roads. I would suggest that for these islands, it is for the professional railway world here and in the UK to decide. There are three main areas of public transport besides roads, ie - air, sea and rail and if two of them can continue to use the Imperial based system that suits them, then it follows the railway world can do so also, particularly a system that has been used successfully for nearly two centuries. And furthermore, not be dictated to by the crowd who brought us 'straight bananas'.

BenShermin

I think trains should give up running on measurements alltogether, I think they should run on time instead.

zagmund

Here lads, give it a rest with the "this would confuse the train drivers who have worked with the same imperial measurements used by their famliy for 'undreds of years." That's a crock. Do you think they have speed and comprehension problems when they step out of their loco, walk down to the car park and get into their non-vintage car with km/h markings ? No, they don't.

Truth be told you are more likely building up a problem for the future when drivers will have been working in km/h all their non-loco driving lives and find they are working in measurements that they don't come across anywhere but on the track.

z

Run_to_da_hills

zagmund wrote: »

Here lads, give it a rest with the "this would confuse the train drivers who have worked with the same imperial measurements used by their famliy for 'undreds of years." That's a crock. Do you think they have speed and comprehension problems when they step out of their loco, walk down to the car park and get into their non-vintage car with km/h markings ? No, they don't.

Truth be told you are more likely building up a problem for the future when drivers will have been working in km/h all their non-loco driving lives and find they are working in measurements that they don't come across anywhere but on the track.

z

It all adds to the mystery of driving a train.

steamengine

zagmund wrote: »

Here lads, give it a rest with the "this would confuse the train drivers who have worked with the same imperial measurements used by their famliy for 'undreds of years." That's a crock. Do you think they have speed and comprehension problems when they step out of their loco, walk down to the car park and get into their non-vintage car with km/h markings ? No, they don't.

Truth be told you are more likely building up a problem for the future when drivers will have been working in km/h all their non-loco driving lives and find they are working in measurements that they don't come across anywhere but on the track.

z

Pilots do it everyday of the week, landing aircraft at circa 150 knots, then drive their cars home - no problems.

parsi

steamengine wrote: »

And furthermore, not be dictated to by the crowd who brought us 'straight bananas'.

Go away and read up on the whole banana issue and you'll see the actual logic behind it rather than the drivel peddled by the Red Tops.

steamengine

parsi wrote: »

Go away and read up on the whole banana issue and you'll see the actual logic behind it rather than the drivel peddled by the Red Tops.

Ok then, I have, I'm curled up laughing . Especially the bit about 'the extra class banana' where the curvature had to be within a certain tolerance. Its the same class of logic that has stopped our turf cutting, and banned a thousand year old country pursuit.

However, to get back on topic, if aircraft and ships can, internationally, stick with an Imperial based system, then why in particular should Irish trains change ? Apart from the optics, what would be achieved ?

spacetweek

Hamndegger wrote: »

• Shanganagh Junction to Wexford station is 10 1/2-92 3/4
• Wexford station to Rosslare Strand is 6 1/4-0
• Rosslare Strand to Rosslare Harbour station is 110 3/4-113 3/4

Is this the way it's actually written? This alone is pretty good evidence that it needs to change.

steamengine wrote: »

particularly a system that has been used successfully for nearly two centuries.

That's truly a miracle, based on the above.

As for the UK, and NI Railways, they can continue in whatever manner they please - we only have one cross-border line, so it makes no difference.

steamengine wrote:

And furthermore, not be dictated to by the crowd who brought us 'straight bananas'.

I see you've been reading the stories the Daily Mail likes to make up, then.

lord lucan

spacetweek wrote: »

Is this the way it's actually written? This alone is pretty good evidence that it needs to change.

In fairness,if you're working regularly with it you'd get used to it and it wouldn't seem strange or unusual.