Could Ireland cope with another wave of immigration?

paky

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

PirateShampoo

With the 2nd highest rate of unemployment behind Spain, why would imergrants chose Ireland?

danbohan

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

emigration rather than immigration will be irelands problem (solution!) for next 5 to 10 years me thinks

paky

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

read the post again

My name is URL

This is more of a political issue than it is a conspiracy related one. But no, I don't know if it would affect our identity if immigration returned to pre-recession levels. Those that want to hold on to the old or even current identity will do so, and do their best to pass that on to their children. Sooner or later what we consider to be 'our identity' will change though.. it constantly is changing.. that's just progression really, not the obliteration of a national psyche

paky

My name is URL wrote: »

This is more of a political issue than it is a conspiracy related one. But no, I don't know if it would affect our identity if immigration returned to pre-recession levels. Those that want to hold on to the old or even current identity will do so, and do their best to pass that on to their children. Sooner or later what we consider to be 'our identity' will change though.. it constantly is changing.. that's just progression really, not the obliteration of a national psyche

Is it changing or are we just assuming somebody elses identity?

My name is URL

paky wrote: »

Is it changing or are we just assuming somebody elses identity?

I don't think that collectively we're assuming other identities. I guess other identities influence our own but just as our own influence others. Many people wouldn't consider themselves to have any national identity anyway, or distance themselves from it purposely.. they live their lives without allowing sentimentality to dictate how they do so. tbh I'd say that may be a bigger factor in how our 'identity' is changing than multinationalism is.

mysterious

Why is this a conspiracy?

digme

stupid thread

Duiske

digme wrote: »

stupid thread

Why stupid ?

Pretty interesting subject, but as a couple have said, its probably in the wrong forum.

humanji

Not really a conspiracy topic. Moved to politics by OP's request.

paky

This thread is now re-open

Sleepy

PirateShampoo wrote: »

With the 2nd highest rate of unemployment behind Spain, why would imergrants chose Ireland?

Our generous welfare system?

woysworld

Sleepy wrote: »

Our generous welfare system?

too generous... should have been reduced during the "good times"...

southsiderosie

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

Even assuming immigration picks up again in 2-3 years, by then

1) the entire EU will be an open labor market (i.e. Poles can go to Germany without restrictions)
2) Poland may still be out-performing most of Western Europe economically
3) There will probably be new asylum regulations in place, and a lot of the old loopholes have already been closed.

Do you really think that immigration has left such a deep imprint on Irish society? Do you think that things have fundamentally changed, and if so, what exactly?

Denerick

I wouldn't worry about the dilution of our identity. Our 'identity' is all a fiction anyway, as it is in every other nation and culture. Angst over 'identity' is a hangover from the nationalist era and we'd do well to get over this towering sense of insecurity.

Economically, its a proven fact that immigration is essential to fuel both our economy and to supplement an ageing population. All over the western world we'll begin to see a massive increase in our retiree population and nobody has figured out a way to pay for it. It literally is a case of creeping disaster. At least one of the solutions will be the need to attract younger workers to plug the gap in the labour force and to pay the taxes necessary to sustain an ageing population.

Culturally, I personally couldn't give a damn. Undoubtedly there will be social problems, but the reality is that nobody could give a farthing for the diddly i stereotype that doesn't really exist here anyway. Irish is a dead langugage kept alive by State life support, traditional music and dancing will always be there for those who are interested or care, and the age of 'unlocked back door' is long gone. In short, who cares?

doctorwu

Even if" things ever pick up "it will be generations before the debts for the Ponzi scheme are paid off. Unless we discover unlimited oil off the four coasts of Ireland we will not need to worry about inward migration, emmigration again ,same old,. same old

View

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

Since we have been almost 40 years in the EU, I have to confess questions like "will our identity survive in the European Union " don't make a lot of sense to me. It is a bit akin to asking "Will the Dublin identity survive in Ireland?" - given the mass movement into Dublin from the rest of Ireland, Dubliners should all have become "Culchies" by now.

femur61

Sleepy wrote: »

Our generous welfare system?

It is unbeleivable.

And things will never pick up as we have to1) Pay for NAMA and 2) We never had a boom before.

Fr Tod Umptious

paky wrote: »

Is it changing or are we just assuming somebody elses identity?

The point could be made that all peoples assume somebody else's identity throughout history.

e.g we have become more Americanized, bagles, flat mocha lattes etc etc, we have also become more European e.g. wine drinking, tapas bars, plus we have become more British, Homebase, M&S etc etc.

I'd say the only place in the world that has not 'assumed someoneelses identity is North Korea

Laminations

I think American and British culture have influenced us far more. Their television and movies and the emergence of the 'high street' shops have IMO played a large part in transforming us from our 'dancing at the crossroads' past. Immigration is an issue that should be discussed though, numbers should always be manageable for our services and permenant immigrants should be integrated into society somewhat rather than having distinct ethnic ghettos dotted about. It's great if we can get people identifying themselves as Irish Italian or polish Irish with areas demarcated by immigrant population like manhattan but we need the 'irish' bit and that depends on how we treat immigrants.

I heard recently about a Chinese company that want to bring (4000?) jobs to Ireland. They want to set up in a small town, sounds great huh? All the workers will be Chinese, all imported. While this would still be good economically it would be worrying socially as that number would overwhelm the local population.

conorhal

southsiderosie wrote: »

Even assuming immigration picks up again in 2-3 years, by then

1) the entire EU will be an open labor market (i.e. Poles can go to Germany without restrictions)
2) Poland may still be out-performing most of Western Europe economically
3) There will probably be new asylum regulations in place, and a lot of the old loopholes have already been closed.

Do you really think that immigration has left such a deep imprint on Irish society? Do you think that things have fundamentally changed, and if so, what exactly?

I expect that 2012 we will see substantial 'reforms' in the legal and social entitlements afforded economic migrants as soon as the rest of Europe is forced to open it's borders.
The French and German's were utterly two faced when it came to the expansion of member states, they were the ones that pushed their pet European project the hardest, and yet they were the first to slam the door shut on migrants, balking at the thought of Polish plumbers undercutting local tradesmen in Paris or Berlin. I expect to see the same hypocrisy in force when they have to open the gates in 2012 when suddenly it will not be ok to deny France's generous child benefits system (enacted to encourage French women to have more children to address their plummeting birth rate) to be applied to non-resident children etc....

View

conorhal wrote: »

I expect that 2012 we will see substantial 'reforms' in the legal and social entitlements afforded economic migrants as soon as the rest of Europe is forced to open it's borders.
The French and German's were utterly two faced when it came to the expansion of member states, they were the ones that pushed their pet European project the hardest, and yet they were the first to slam the door shut on migrants, balking at the thought of Polish plumbers undercutting local tradesmen in Paris or Berlin. I expect to see the same hypocrisy in force when they have to open the gates in 2012 when suddenly it will not be ok to deny France's generous child benefits system (enacted to encourage French women to have more children to address their plummeting birth rate) to be applied to non-resident children etc....

France has had a fully open labour market the the "EU-10" NAS since July 1 2008. Indeed, all EU member states have open labour markets for them with the exceptions of Germany and Austria.

Since the German and Austrian exceptions were explicitly written into the "EU-10" Accession Treaties - Treaties which any or all of the "EU-10" were free to reject if they didn't like the terms therein - what exactly is your problem? What gives you more right to speak on behalf of the EU-10 than their own governments?

fontanalis

What irish identity? If it's lost it will be because of irish people. I don't think it's because of immigrants the language is dying out, a very old and historical place like the hill of tara could have been basically bulldozed and the inclination for alot of people to turn into something out of desperate housewives once they thought they were rich.

Mike 1972

paky wrote: »

will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

Yes

After theyve taken all our jawbs, houses and women they will eat us

THEY WILL EAT US I TELL YE !

fontanalis

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Yes

After theyve taken all our jawbs, houses and women they will eat us

THEY WILL EAT US I TELL YE !

I think he sees ireland like DeValera; that irish people are delicate little snow flakes who god has a special place in his heart for and ireland should be shielded from the rest of the world.

mike65

Money/wealth changes identity more than Johnny Foreigner. Consider the average Irishman in 1980 and his son in 2010. Dad was modest and happy to just get along with his girl and a job, probably a job in one of the old reliables of public serivce or farming. A holliday would be a week in Kerry or if you were a bit swanky Spain. His idea of sophistication was a bottle of Blue Nun and the idea of not eating meat or cooking vegatables correctly was utterly alien. He did at least own his own house.

His offspring is a self-seeking international travelling consumer of immediate sensation
(HD tv/porn/ipad/on the piss) who works in a legal consultancy/trading floor/IT dept fancies himself as a bit of a cook, drives a car that 'reflects his aspirations' and quite probably doesn't own a house.

Immigrants by contrast have little impact on the Irish psyche.

DACSTER

With all due respect to our Turkish cousins. It will be carnage within the EU should they be allowed to join and then have employment rights.

Utter carnage.

1984 is happening right before our eyes.

mike65

1984 was a political allegory about Soviet Russia (and any other totalitarian state you might like to throw in) not immigration

DACSTER

mike65 wrote: »

1984 was a political allegory about Soviet Russia (and any other totalitarian state you might like to throw in) not immigration

It was also about super-countries controlling their population with no democracy in the name of socialism.

EU - going to be like Oceania if you ask me. We already have Eurasia.

Denerick

DACSTER wrote: »

With all due respect to our Turkish cousins. It will be carnage within the EU should they be allowed to join and then have employment rights.

Utter carnage.

1984 is happening right before our eyes.

Ireland could do with an influx of 100,000 young Turks. How do you expect your pension entitlements will be paid when you reach retirement age? We're all living on a ticking time bomb, and have to accept that either our old age entitlements will have to be slashed, or that we need 'da brown people' to rejuvenate an ageing country and to pay the taxes that will fund future obligations.

Ignoring the dangers of our top heavy population pyramid will lead to 'carnage'

fontanalis

mike65 wrote: »

1984 was a political allegory about Soviet Russia (and any other totalitarian state you might like to throw in) not immigration

But think about it man! you weren't there man!

Actually I'd love to know how 1984 is happening before our eyes, and specifically what parts of 1984.

Pauleta

It wouldnt make a difference in terms of EU immigration. There are no jobs and (correct me if im wrong) you have to be working here 2 years to claim the dole. It actually may boost the economy through short term rents and general living costs. They wont be here long because there is no work.

Although according to some people that listen to the Adrian Kennedy phone show the country will be broke because of the free BMWs and houses they get

fontanalis

DACSTER wrote: »

It was also about super-countries controlling their population with no democracy in the name of socialism.

EU - going to be like Oceania if you ask me. We already have Eurasia.

Wasn't Orwell a socialist? I think he was against the idea of totalitarianism more than anything.
The best thing to happen Ireland would be to be controlled by a competent country.

Denerick

fontanalis wrote: »

Wasn't Orwell a socialist? I think he was against the idea of totalitarianism more than anything.
The best thing to happen Ireland would be to be controlled by a competent country.

Orwell was a socialist. Animal Farm was aimed at his comrades, not the broader public.

lardossan

[QUOTE=paky;66732971 the imprint they have left on Ireland[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by that? Do you mean our attempts at showing you that there's more to food than takeaways and canned beans? Or that drinking in front of children only encourages them later life to pick up drinking? Or that getting drunk and vomiting all over the city centre is not what normal adults do all over Europe?

Or are you talking about all the taxes we pay, the rents we pay to your landlords? I'm just curious you know.

Pittens

I'm sorry, what do you mean by that? Do you mean our attempts at showing you that there's more to food than takeaways and canned beans? Or that drinking in front of children only encourages them later life to pick up drinking? Or that getting drunk and vomiting all over the city centre is not what normal adults do all over Europe?

how do describe normal. Are you describing the Irish as ab-normal? Do you think the Irish are genetially inferior to wherever you come from?

Pittens

fontanalis wrote: »

Wasn't Orwell a socialist? I think he was against the idea of totalitarianism more than anything.
The best thing to happen Ireland would be to be controlled by a competent country.

So you are saying we should be re-colonised? What about Africa?

fontanalis

Pittens wrote: »

So you are saying we should be re-colonised? What about Africa?

No, someone mentioned a while back about some nefarious plot to take control of the country by super countries or something like that. I was implying that maybe more oversight from the EU might actually be beneficial and it's not some 1984esque plot to enslave everyone.

Pittens

Anyway my guess is that the situation on mass immigration will come to a head after the recession in most european countries. Firstly most countries are in recession, secondly Germany and France - both total hypocrites when it comes to the European ideal - have to open up their borders. Just now. Millions of Poles could come to Ireland and the UK in seven years, but none to Germany. Couldn't cross the border. Couldnt work ten miles away in Eastern Germany but could here. That was to protect their labour market. Nothing has changed in the last 7 years to make German or French workers more competitive, and the recession may double dip.

The question is this: is the opening up of Eastern Europe good for workers in the west. While immigrants - most hard working to be fair - poured into the UK there was very little effect on the number of UK jobless. Benefit claimants in the UK stayed static. Long term benefit holders in the UK stayed long term - mostly it was disability ( but that hides long term unemployment).

So what will happen after the recession? Is there a chance that outsourcing and open labour markets will mean that the employers will - in rough financial circumstances once the recession ends - employ immigrants and increase outsourcing rather than employ locals. Recession always ends with jobless growth, but jobless growth after a few years and well into the recovery will not be accepted.

I think that may happen. Europe wide. And then Eastern Europeans will have to get visas again ( like Romania)

Overheal

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

Look West.

Irish Americans (Irish: Gael-Mheiriceánaigh) are citizens of the United States who trace their ancestry to Ireland. An estimated total of 36,278,332 Americans — over 12% of the total population and 20% of the white population - reported Irish ancestry in the 2008 American Community Survey.[2]

40 million here, 40 million there...

The short answer being Ireland's racial and cultural identity is not in jeopardy.

Pittens

. An estimated total of 36,278,332 Americans — over 12% of the total population and 20% of the white population - reported Irish ancestry in the 2008 American Community Survey.[2]

90% of that group could not find the country on a map.

hamlet1

PirateShampoo wrote: »

With the 2nd highest rate of unemployment behind Spain, why would imergrants chose Ireland?

because we are stupid enough to give them social welfare payments,medical cards etc.i would be better off going abroad and coming back pretending im immigrating.

fontanalis

hamlet1 wrote: »

because we are stupid enough to give them social welfare payments,medical cards etc.i would be better off going abroad and coming back pretending im immigrating.

Apart from the fact they have to wait 2 years. Why not apply, you'll save the orice of a plane ticket?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Ireland got its first wave of non-whites after it stopped being acceptable to be racist in the western world. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the future of race relations in this country.

What does concern me is that at the moment retail/fast food staff are overwhelmingly non-irish. Was in carrolls(irish souvinir shop) today saw 4 staff.

First one I asked if they were looking for staff, he was eastern european; said to ask the manager. On the way I saw a pair of sunglasses going cheap so i went to the cashier. Was South-East Asian, there was an Irish looking staff member at the other cash register. Finally found the manager - he was South Asian.

The centras/spars in my area are 90% non irish staffed - and I've heard their accents they are not from here. I believe for jobs requiring no training employers favour non-Irish.

Now I'm just a student looking for Summer work. I blame the system and I hold nothing against the foreigners who have these jobs. However there's hundreds of thousands of Irish people with families in dire straits who will be jealous of the foreigners being favoured by employers and actually blame them personally.

If the government doesn't do something to make employers treat Irish people the same as foreigners I fear we will head down the same racist path as the UK. Ironically the opponents of any kind of legislation supporting Irish workers will probably pull the racism card

fontanalis

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ireland got its first wave of non-whites after it stopped being acceptable to be racist in the western world. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the future of race relations in this country.

What does concern me is that at the moment retail/fast food staff are overwhelmingly non-irish. Was in carrolls(irish souvinir shop) today saw 4 staff.

First one I asked if they were looking for staff, he was eastern european; said to ask the manager. On the way I saw a pair of sunglasses going cheap so i went to the cashier. Was South-East Asian, there was an Irish looking staff member at the other cash register. Finally found the manager - he was South Asian.

The centras/spars in my area are 90% non irish staffed - and I've heard their accents they are not from here. I believe for jobs requiring no training employers favour non-Irish.

Now I'm just a student looking for Summer work. I blame the system and I hold nothing against the foreigners who have these jobs. However there's hundreds of thousands of Irish people with families in dire straits who will be jealous of the foreigners being favoured by employers and actually blame them personally.

If the government doesn't do something to make employers treat Irish people the same as foreigners I fear we will head down the same racist path as the UK. Ironically the opponents of any kind of legislation supporting Irish workers will probably pull the racism card

Why would foreigners be favoured?

Denerick

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ireland got its first wave of non-whites after it stopped being acceptable to be racist in the western world. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the future of race relations in this country.

What does concern me is that at the moment retail/fast food staff are overwhelmingly non-irish. Was in carrolls(irish souvinir shop) today saw 4 staff.

First one I asked if they were looking for staff, he was eastern european; said to ask the manager. On the way I saw a pair of sunglasses going cheap so i went to the cashier. Was South-East Asian, there was an Irish looking staff member at the other cash register. Finally found the manager - he was South Asian.

The centras/spars in my area are 90% non irish staffed - and I've heard their accents they are not from here. I believe for jobs requiring no training employers favour non-Irish.

Now I'm just a student looking for Summer work. I blame the system and I hold nothing against the foreigners who have these jobs. However there's hundreds of thousands of Irish people with families in dire straits who will be jealous of the foreigners being favoured by employers and actually blame them personally.

If the government doesn't do something to make employers treat Irish people the same as foreigners I fear we will head down the same racist path as the UK. Ironically the opponents of any kind of legislation supporting Irish workers will probably pull the racism card

The 'foreigners' are not to blame with you not been able to find work. The problem is that you are seeking student summer work - while employers want people who they can rely on. They can't rely on students as they are definately going to leave around exam time or when they finish their degree. When times are good employers will take on students (I never had problems finding part time work in shops and restaurants) When times are bad they'll concentrate on people willing to stay longer. This means they will predominatly stick with their current long time staff, who are foreign. The reason they are foreign is because Irish people simply didn't apply for these jobs. You choose to overlook that.

Furthermore, our 'working classes' do not want to work minimum wage jobs because they can earn more, or as much, on welfare. This is part of our ridiculous social welfare system that effectively punishes work. This is the main reason why you hear Pakistani, and not Dublin accents in your local centra.

When I worked in a shop in Dublin city centre there was around 20 people on the payroll. There were 2 Irish people, one of them being me. The boss always had a sign on the shop window advertising for new staff. Not once did an Irish person come up to me with a CV at any time that I was working.

Grumpypants

Another wave of immigration is actually what we need. The economy was built on us building houses. If we had another wave of people that bought up those empty houses we could get construction off the ground again which would help the country no end. With more demand, prices would rise lots of people wouldnt be faced with such bad negative equity and everything would ease up. At the moment we have mass emigration so even more houses are being left empty prices are still falling and the country is going into more debt.

View

Pittens wrote: »

Anyway my guess is that the situation on mass immigration will come to a head after the recession in most european countries. Firstly most countries are in recession, secondly Germany and France - both total hypocrites when it comes to the European ideal - have to open up their borders.

France has already opened its labour markets - on July 1 2008 to be precise. All other EU member states with the exception of Germany and Austria have opened their labour markets to the former "EU-10" NAS.

Germany's and Austria's exception is contained explicitly in the Accession Treaties of those states - it expires on May 1 next year. Any or all of the "EU-10" NAS could have rejected that Accession Treaty if they didn't like that condition - their choice was to accept it.

Pittens wrote: »

Millions of Poles could come to Ireland and the UK in seven years, but none to Germany.

Restricted access to a labour market does not mean a total ban from that labour market...

Pittens wrote: »

Recession always ends with jobless growth, but jobless growth after a few years and well into the recovery will not be accepted.

I think that may happen. Europe wide. And then Eastern Europeans will have to get visas again ( like Romania)

This can of course happen provided you can persuade the governments & parliaments of the East European states to allow you to discriminate against their citizens. Failing that, you can forget about visas.

Lastly, I should mention that in the case of Bulgaria and Romania, Ireland together with the UK are the only 2 EU states which apply full restrictions. The other states have either fully opened their labour markets or allow partial access/apply partial restrictions for specific industry sectors.

View

Pauleta wrote: »

There are no jobs and (correct me if im wrong) you have to be working here 2 years to claim the dole.

Almost 100% right, (almost all) EU citizens who live in Ireland for less than the two year mark, and who are unfortunate enough to lose their job will not qualify.

But there is always the exception...

Under the wonderful rules devised by our government, it is possible for a Non-EU citizen (e.g. a Swiss or Norwegian citizen) who lives in any of the Channel Islands - all of which are Non-EU "states" - for a period of 2 years to move to Ireland and qualify immediately for Social Welfare benefits without ever having set foot in Ireland prior to their arrival!

Bottle_of_Smoke

fontanalis wrote: »

Why would foreigners be favoured?

I think there's a perception that Irish people are lazy whereas foreigners will work harder. I think employers are worried the Irish would be more likely to leave if something better came along

Perhaps this is true to an extent, but imagine a workplace only hired men because some women end up going on maternity leave? You can't allow this kind of discrimination when hiring people

Denerick wrote:

The 'foreigners' are not to blame with you not been able to find work. The problem is that you are seeking student summer work - while employers want people who they can rely on. They can't rely on students as they are definately going to leave around exam time or when they finish their degree. When times are good employers will take on students (I never had problems finding part time work in shops and restaurants) When times are bad they'll concentrate on people willing to stay longer. This means they will predominatly stick with their current long time staff, who are foreign. The reason they are foreign is because Irish people simply didn't apply for these jobs. You choose to overlook that.

Did you read a word I said? I'm not blaming them at all. Also I don't know why you have foreigners written as 'foreigners'. I only mentioned that I was a student to point out as to why it doesn't bother me.

Furthermore, our 'working classes' do not want to work minimum wage jobs because they can earn more, or as much, on welfare. This is part of our ridiculous social welfare system that effectively punishes work. This is the main reason why you hear Pakistani, and not Dublin accents in your local centra.

There's plenty of eastern european accents too, people who'd be eligible for welfare. The welfare system is loony but it doesn't punish people to that great an extent. Most people would rather earn 360 a week on min wage than 190 in benefits. Well enough people anyway

When I worked in a shop in Dublin city centre there was around 20 people on the payroll. There were 2 Irish people, one of them being me. The boss always had a sign on the shop window advertising for new staff. Not once did an Irish person come up to me with a CV at any time that I was working.

Find that hard to believe. I worked in sports shops in Dublin 1 in the summers of 02/03 and a fashion store in Dublin 2 03 to 05. Got some CVs from foreigners but most of them came from young Irish people.