Could Ireland cope with another wave of immigration?

paky

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

PirateShampoo

With the 2nd highest rate of unemployment behind Spain, why would imergrants chose Ireland?

danbohan

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

emigration rather than immigration will be irelands problem (solution!) for next 5 to 10 years me thinks

paky

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

read the post again

My name is URL

This is more of a political issue than it is a conspiracy related one. But no, I don't know if it would affect our identity if immigration returned to pre-recession levels. Those that want to hold on to the old or even current identity will do so, and do their best to pass that on to their children. Sooner or later what we consider to be 'our identity' will change though.. it constantly is changing.. that's just progression really, not the obliteration of a national psyche

paky

My name is URL wrote: »

This is more of a political issue than it is a conspiracy related one. But no, I don't know if it would affect our identity if immigration returned to pre-recession levels. Those that want to hold on to the old or even current identity will do so, and do their best to pass that on to their children. Sooner or later what we consider to be 'our identity' will change though.. it constantly is changing.. that's just progression really, not the obliteration of a national psyche

Is it changing or are we just assuming somebody elses identity?

My name is URL

paky wrote: »

Is it changing or are we just assuming somebody elses identity?

I don't think that collectively we're assuming other identities. I guess other identities influence our own but just as our own influence others. Many people wouldn't consider themselves to have any national identity anyway, or distance themselves from it purposely.. they live their lives without allowing sentimentality to dictate how they do so. tbh I'd say that may be a bigger factor in how our 'identity' is changing than multinationalism is.

mysterious

Why is this a conspiracy?

digme

stupid thread

Duiske

digme wrote: »

stupid thread

Why stupid ?

Pretty interesting subject, but as a couple have said, its probably in the wrong forum.

humanji

Not really a conspiracy topic. Moved to politics by OP's request.

paky

This thread is now re-open

Sleepy

PirateShampoo wrote: »

With the 2nd highest rate of unemployment behind Spain, why would imergrants chose Ireland?

Our generous welfare system?

woysworld

Sleepy wrote: »

Our generous welfare system?

too generous... should have been reduced during the "good times"...

southsiderosie

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

Even assuming immigration picks up again in 2-3 years, by then

1) the entire EU will be an open labor market (i.e. Poles can go to Germany without restrictions)
2) Poland may still be out-performing most of Western Europe economically
3) There will probably be new asylum regulations in place, and a lot of the old loopholes have already been closed.

Do you really think that immigration has left such a deep imprint on Irish society? Do you think that things have fundamentally changed, and if so, what exactly?

Denerick

I wouldn't worry about the dilution of our identity. Our 'identity' is all a fiction anyway, as it is in every other nation and culture. Angst over 'identity' is a hangover from the nationalist era and we'd do well to get over this towering sense of insecurity.

Economically, its a proven fact that immigration is essential to fuel both our economy and to supplement an ageing population. All over the western world we'll begin to see a massive increase in our retiree population and nobody has figured out a way to pay for it. It literally is a case of creeping disaster. At least one of the solutions will be the need to attract younger workers to plug the gap in the labour force and to pay the taxes necessary to sustain an ageing population.

Culturally, I personally couldn't give a damn. Undoubtedly there will be social problems, but the reality is that nobody could give a farthing for the diddly i stereotype that doesn't really exist here anyway. Irish is a dead langugage kept alive by State life support, traditional music and dancing will always be there for those who are interested or care, and the age of 'unlocked back door' is long gone. In short, who cares?

doctorwu

Even if" things ever pick up "it will be generations before the debts for the Ponzi scheme are paid off. Unless we discover unlimited oil off the four coasts of Ireland we will not need to worry about inward migration, emmigration again ,same old,. same old

View

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

Since we have been almost 40 years in the EU, I have to confess questions like "will our identity survive in the European Union " don't make a lot of sense to me. It is a bit akin to asking "Will the Dublin identity survive in Ireland?" - given the mass movement into Dublin from the rest of Ireland, Dubliners should all have become "Culchies" by now.

femur61

Sleepy wrote: »

Our generous welfare system?

It is unbeleivable.

And things will never pick up as we have to1) Pay for NAMA and 2) We never had a boom before.

Fr Tod Umptious

paky wrote: »

Is it changing or are we just assuming somebody elses identity?

The point could be made that all peoples assume somebody else's identity throughout history.

e.g we have become more Americanized, bagles, flat mocha lattes etc etc, we have also become more European e.g. wine drinking, tapas bars, plus we have become more British, Homebase, M&S etc etc.

I'd say the only place in the world that has not 'assumed someoneelses identity is North Korea

Laminations

I think American and British culture have influenced us far more. Their television and movies and the emergence of the 'high street' shops have IMO played a large part in transforming us from our 'dancing at the crossroads' past. Immigration is an issue that should be discussed though, numbers should always be manageable for our services and permenant immigrants should be integrated into society somewhat rather than having distinct ethnic ghettos dotted about. It's great if we can get people identifying themselves as Irish Italian or polish Irish with areas demarcated by immigrant population like manhattan but we need the 'irish' bit and that depends on how we treat immigrants.

I heard recently about a Chinese company that want to bring (4000?) jobs to Ireland. They want to set up in a small town, sounds great huh? All the workers will be Chinese, all imported. While this would still be good economically it would be worrying socially as that number would overwhelm the local population.

conorhal

southsiderosie wrote: »

Even assuming immigration picks up again in 2-3 years, by then

1) the entire EU will be an open labor market (i.e. Poles can go to Germany without restrictions)
2) Poland may still be out-performing most of Western Europe economically
3) There will probably be new asylum regulations in place, and a lot of the old loopholes have already been closed.

Do you really think that immigration has left such a deep imprint on Irish society? Do you think that things have fundamentally changed, and if so, what exactly?

I expect that 2012 we will see substantial 'reforms' in the legal and social entitlements afforded economic migrants as soon as the rest of Europe is forced to open it's borders.
The French and German's were utterly two faced when it came to the expansion of member states, they were the ones that pushed their pet European project the hardest, and yet they were the first to slam the door shut on migrants, balking at the thought of Polish plumbers undercutting local tradesmen in Paris or Berlin. I expect to see the same hypocrisy in force when they have to open the gates in 2012 when suddenly it will not be ok to deny France's generous child benefits system (enacted to encourage French women to have more children to address their plummeting birth rate) to be applied to non-resident children etc....

View

conorhal wrote: »

I expect that 2012 we will see substantial 'reforms' in the legal and social entitlements afforded economic migrants as soon as the rest of Europe is forced to open it's borders.
The French and German's were utterly two faced when it came to the expansion of member states, they were the ones that pushed their pet European project the hardest, and yet they were the first to slam the door shut on migrants, balking at the thought of Polish plumbers undercutting local tradesmen in Paris or Berlin. I expect to see the same hypocrisy in force when they have to open the gates in 2012 when suddenly it will not be ok to deny France's generous child benefits system (enacted to encourage French women to have more children to address their plummeting birth rate) to be applied to non-resident children etc....

France has had a fully open labour market the the "EU-10" NAS since July 1 2008. Indeed, all EU member states have open labour markets for them with the exceptions of Germany and Austria.

Since the German and Austrian exceptions were explicitly written into the "EU-10" Accession Treaties - Treaties which any or all of the "EU-10" were free to reject if they didn't like the terms therein - what exactly is your problem? What gives you more right to speak on behalf of the EU-10 than their own governments?

fontanalis

What irish identity? If it's lost it will be because of irish people. I don't think it's because of immigrants the language is dying out, a very old and historical place like the hill of tara could have been basically bulldozed and the inclination for alot of people to turn into something out of desperate housewives once they thought they were rich.

Mike 1972

paky wrote: »

will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

Yes

After theyve taken all our jawbs, houses and women they will eat us

THEY WILL EAT US I TELL YE !

fontanalis

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Yes

After theyve taken all our jawbs, houses and women they will eat us

THEY WILL EAT US I TELL YE !

I think he sees ireland like DeValera; that irish people are delicate little snow flakes who god has a special place in his heart for and ireland should be shielded from the rest of the world.

mike65

Money/wealth changes identity more than Johnny Foreigner. Consider the average Irishman in 1980 and his son in 2010. Dad was modest and happy to just get along with his girl and a job, probably a job in one of the old reliables of public serivce or farming. A holliday would be a week in Kerry or if you were a bit swanky Spain. His idea of sophistication was a bottle of Blue Nun and the idea of not eating meat or cooking vegatables correctly was utterly alien. He did at least own his own house.

His offspring is a self-seeking international travelling consumer of immediate sensation
(HD tv/porn/ipad/on the piss) who works in a legal consultancy/trading floor/IT dept fancies himself as a bit of a cook, drives a car that 'reflects his aspirations' and quite probably doesn't own a house.

Immigrants by contrast have little impact on the Irish psyche.

DACSTER

With all due respect to our Turkish cousins. It will be carnage within the EU should they be allowed to join and then have employment rights.

Utter carnage.

1984 is happening right before our eyes.

mike65

1984 was a political allegory about Soviet Russia (and any other totalitarian state you might like to throw in) not immigration

DACSTER

mike65 wrote: »

1984 was a political allegory about Soviet Russia (and any other totalitarian state you might like to throw in) not immigration

It was also about super-countries controlling their population with no democracy in the name of socialism.

EU - going to be like Oceania if you ask me. We already have Eurasia.

Denerick

DACSTER wrote: »

With all due respect to our Turkish cousins. It will be carnage within the EU should they be allowed to join and then have employment rights.

Utter carnage.

1984 is happening right before our eyes.

Ireland could do with an influx of 100,000 young Turks. How do you expect your pension entitlements will be paid when you reach retirement age? We're all living on a ticking time bomb, and have to accept that either our old age entitlements will have to be slashed, or that we need 'da brown people' to rejuvenate an ageing country and to pay the taxes that will fund future obligations.

Ignoring the dangers of our top heavy population pyramid will lead to 'carnage'