Installing a stove - Do I NEED a new flue liner

flynnboy

Hi guys

Can anyone tell me this. I am installing a new multi-fuel stove. The chimney has an existing ceramic flue liner, is it really necessary to install a new flexible flue liner to it attached directly to the stove pipe or am I OK just inserting the flue pipe from the stove into the existing liner - complete of course with sealed register plate etc ?

Thanks for your help

indie armada

wouldnt do any harm to get the existing flue inspected, especially if its never been used and is back to back with a neighbours. once the stove pipe is inserted into the existing flue without any ledges where soot can gather it should be fine. if soot can gather around the throat plate then you need a soot door or some other means of removing it. ive a liner from the stove flue to the chimney pot which is all one seamless piece and cause im in a bungelow i can sweep the chimney from the top and then clean out the stove.

flynnboy

Well I have no neighbours and the flue liner has just been cleaned. Being a normal ceramic flue liner installed in sections then yes it has small ledges where one section adjoins another. Is this really a 'problem' ?

paddy147

You are really supposed to use a twin walled flexi flue liner kit when you are putting in a multi fuel stove.Its due to higher temps that will come from a multi fuel stove.

Short term pain for long term gain.

I just got this 6 inch flexi flue liner kit in from for my own house.Its for a Stovax cassette multi fuel stove thats being fitted into what used to be a 1950,s house with an old open fireplace the usual concrete and clay flue.:)

flynnboy

Hi Paddy

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Was all that expensive - you can mail that to me privately if you like, or just give me some kind of idea. Did you have to fill around the liner with vermiculite after installing it ?

How do you go about cleaning a liner like that, especially if you have an elbow connection at the back of the stove ?

Thanks for your help

paddy147

flynnboy wrote: »

Hi Paddy

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Was all that expensive - you can mail that to me privately if you like, or just give me some kind of idea. Did you have to fill around the liner with vermiculite after installing it ?

How do you go about cleaning a liner like that, especially if you have an elbow connection at the back of the stove ?

Thanks for your help

I got 30 feet of 6 inch stainless steel twin wall flexi flue liner,anti down draught chimney pot hanger,and the instalation kit was got from Excel Industries in Blanchardstown for just on 360 euro.

The chimney pot hanger is very handy to use and fit.

Slot it into the flexi flue liner,tighten the stainless clamp over the lliner,then sit the pot hanger on top of the existing clay chimney pot and clamp it down with the larger stainless strap.Simples.:)

Several chimney and fireplace people that I have spoken to told me that you fit a register plate and then back fill the chimney with vermiculite when the liner is installed.

The gives better insulation and makes the flexi flue liner and stove perform better

paddy147

Oh and you ONLY USE a pollypropelene chimney sweep brush/head and rubber flexi rod kit to clean a stainless flexi flue liner.

This will clean the liner but wont damage the inside of the liner.

flynnboy

paddy147 wrote: »

Oh and you ONLY USE a pollypropelene chimney sweep brush/head and rubber flexi rod kit to clean a stainless flexi flue liner.

This will clean the liner but wont damage the inside of the liner.

Thanks again for all that Paddy. But the cleaning, how do you get around an elbow bend? I will have to fit our stove from the back and because the entrance to the flue is off centre to the stove I will have to use an elbow from the back to get the pipe lined up vertical to the flue entry. I would imagine this is going to make cleaning very difficult ?

paddy147

flynnboy wrote: »

Thanks again for all that Paddy. But the cleaning, how do you get around an elbow bend? I will have to fit our stove from the back and because the entrance to the flue is off centre to the stove I will have to use an elbow from the back to get the pipe lined up vertical to the flue entry. I would imagine this is going to make cleaning very difficult ?

You can get a small 1 or 2 foot long section of flue pipe that has a trap door on it,that is purposely meant for cleaning and using a sweep/brush.

paddy147

Theres also a company in Summerhill,Co Meath called MI Flues,they make every type of flue kit imagineable.

http://www.miflues.ie/Default.aspx

They are very easy and very good to deal with.And if you need a special or one off part,they will even go and try and make it for you,to help you out.

I have no connection with either company,just a very happy customer of both.:)

flynnboy

Cheers Paddy. Thanks for all of that I very much appreciate your help.

I'll have a look at those companies and see where we go.

flynnboy

Oh there was just one more thing... what would be the consequence if you didn't use a liner ?

paddy147

flynnboy wrote: »

Oh there was just one more thing... what would be the consequence if you didn't use a liner ?

I would presume that over time your existing 1 would deteriate and crack/leak and so too would the actuall chimney itself?

Depends on what you burn and how well you would have the fire going and for how long?

But as they say,better to be safe than sorry......and......short term pain for long term gain.;)

flynnboy

paddy147 wrote: »

I would presume that over time your existing 1 would deteriate and crack/leak and so too would the actuall chimney itself?

Depends on what you burn and how well you would have the fire going and for how long?

But as they say,better to be safe than sorry......and......short term pain for long term gain.;)

Yeah, was just curious. I think I'm going to have to go with a liner.

Thanks again Paddy

johneym

hi Folks,

sorry for hijacking

i want to connect up my new stove. I have not done this before but have been quoted 1700 to do it. Cannot afford that so will be doing it myself. This is my plan so far so please correct me and offer any advice.
I will buy the liner and pull it down to the start of the clay flue opening at the bottom. These old clay flues are held in place by blocks at an angle.
I will be using the back exit from the stove and will have about a 125 mm pipe out from the stove spigot. Then I need a 90 degree elbow bend on to this. Or perhaps I dont need the pipe at all an can just insert the 90 degree elbow bend into the stove spigot. The stove spigot will be about 200mm from the centre line of the flue?
I can then pull the flixi liner directly down onto the upper opening of this elbow and seal all with fire cement. I will fill the opening between the liner an flue with rockwoll and fire cement.The fireplace will be bricked in and these bricks will also hold the horizontal pipe coming from the stove back.
On the roof I will pour down vermicalite outside the liner to secure it and attach the cowl thing to the liner and clay flue.

How is this?
Thanks a lot

flynnboy

Hi

Since I started this thread back in July I have installed and I'm usding my stove and I have not used a flu liner. If there is nothing wrong with your existing ceramic liner I don't see any need. I was all set to buy a flu liner at the cost of something like 500 euro when I found a solution.

The problem is getting the draw for the new narrower pipe from the stove which is of course going into a larger flu in your existing chimney. This was the only reason I was going to buy a new liner otherwise the stove just would not draw properly.

Quite by accident I discovered something I didn't know exsited - what you need is a reducer from your existing flu to the connecting pipe from your stove. In my case this was an 8" - 5" flu reducer at the cost of something like 40 euro. All you have to do is fix the larger portion into your existing flu, fix it into place with fire-cement, connect the other end into your new flu pipe and seal that with fire-cement and bingo !

exaisle

flynnboy wrote: »

Hi

The problem is getting the draw for the new narrower pipe from the stove which is of course going into a larger flu in your existing chimney.

I think the problem is that because stoves are up to 80% efficient as opposed to the 20% odd efficiency of a standard fire, the temperature of the gases travelling up the flue is much lower.

This has two effects - one is that it takes longer for the inside of the flue to heat up and help the draw by keeping the gases hot as they travel up the flue. The second and bigger problem is condensation. Over time, more condensation will take place inside the ceramic pipe and this will, eventually, cause tar and other unpleasant stuff to come back down the chimney.

By using a stainless steel liner and insulation, you allow the inside of the liner to heat up much more quickly which helps to keep the gases rising...and you also prevent tar and other deposits from forming through condensation, all of which helps with the efficiency of the stove.

As Paddy147 put it....short term pain for long term gain.

zetor6340

flynnboy wrote: »

Hi

Since I started this thread back in July I have installed and I'm usding my stove and I have not used a flu liner. If there is nothing wrong with your existing ceramic liner I don't see any need. I was all set to buy a flu liner at the cost of something like 500 euro when I found a solution.

The problem is getting the draw for the new narrower pipe from the stove which is of course going into a larger flu in your existing chimney. This was the only reason I was going to buy a new liner otherwise the stove just would not draw properly.

Quite by accident I discovered something I didn't know exsited - what you need is a reducer from your existing flu to the connecting pipe from your stove. In my case this was an 8" - 5" flu reducer at the cost of something like 40 euro. All you have to do is fix the larger portion into your existing flu, fix it into place with fire-cement, connect the other end into your new flu pipe and seal that with fire-cement and bingo !

Hi Flynnboy, where did you get the flu reducer for 40 euro? Sounds like a good deal as I found one in a local store for 75 euro which i thought was twice the price that it should be. Thanks

flynnboy

Hi

Donegal Heating & Plumbing. Donegal Town.

Cheers

flynnboy

Hi

Donegal Heating & Plumbing. Donegal Town.

Cheers

nophd08

Is it a stainless steel reducer?

flynnboy

nophd08 wrote: »

Is it a stainless steel reducer?

Yes

Ford4000

Ive just put in a stove and am using twin walled stainless piping in 1 metre sections, as there was no space in the existing chimney i used brackets, screwed to the wall and have built a 'fake' chimney round it. Seems a great job i tapped into the old chimney near the roof and got enough space to get up alongside the other flue for that short distance, any views on this anyone ?

demanufactured

Ford4000 wrote: »

Ive just put in a stove and am using twin walled stainless piping in 1 metre sections, as there was no space in the existing chimney i used brackets, screwed to the wall and have built a 'fake' chimney round it. Seems a great job i tapped into the old chimney near the roof and got enough space to get up alongside the other flue for that short distance, any views on this anyone ?

WTF....sounds extremely dodgy to me...

Ford4000

demanufactured wrote: »

WTF....sounds extremely dodgy to me...

Why??? Have you experience in this field, im doing exactly what everyone else is doing with stoves as regardsa twin walled stainless flue, to touch when a stove is on full pelt it gives off no heat at all.....please explain your concerns im very interested !

demanufactured

Ford4000 wrote: »

Why??? Have you experience in this field, im doing exactly what everyone else is doing with stoves as regardsa twin walled stainless flue, to touch when a stove is on full pelt it gives off no heat at all.....please explain your concerns im very interested !

you "tapped" into the existing chimney???

Explain.

paddy147

demanufactured wrote: »

you "tapped" into the existing chimney???

Explain.

I have visions of Homer Simpson and the BBQ he built.:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOMmvI2y4u8

Ford4000

demanufactured wrote: »

you "tapped" into the existing chimney???

Explain.

The twin walled chimney goes up allongside the existing chimney, upstairs is also a bedroom so i cut a hole in the chimney and took out the lining, near the top there is enough space to get the two running alongside going out the roof where i will cap it normally

red bull

can the vermiculite be put down the existing flue from the top ?

Kenny Powers

paddy147 wrote: »

Oh and you ONLY USE a pollypropelene chimney sweep brush/head and rubber flexi rod kit to clean a stainless flexi flue liner.

This will clean the liner but wont damage the inside of the liner.

Do you know where I can buy these Rods?

kevmac20

I came acreos this thread and could not help but put a few misconceptions to bed
A multistove gives out most of it's heat locally and not up the flue as with conventional open fireplaces, and as a consequence the flue temperature is lower, which can cause condensing on the flue.
In the event of a flue fire with a flue liner, the Stainless steels properties is altered and is susceptible to rusting, not a good idea and subsequently this may have to be replaced
If you have a conventional flue liner, i.e. a vitreous liner, this is perfectly fine, all you need to do is fit a reducer from the flue liner to the metal flue of the stove, as long as the flue liner is not cracked.

Planet X

paddy147 wrote: »

Oh and you ONLY USE a pollypropelene chimney sweep brush/head and rubber flexi rod kit to clean a stainless flexi flue liner.

This will clean the liner but wont damage the inside of the liner.

Hi Paddy,
Where would I get a polypropelene sweeper brush? I have a bristle brush set up I used to use on the open fire / chimney. Got an inset stove this year and plan to give it a sweep. Have been sweeping my two flues for a few years now pre inset stove. But the bristle job feels too stiff for a lined flue. I got Glorneys to do the job. I assume they'd have the appropriate kit?
Cheers.

seoirse1980

Hi all, I'd like to contribute to this thread. I'm a professional chimney sweep, a certified member with the guild of master chimney sweeps and Hetas.

As has been said before the flue that serves a fireplace is considerable larger than that needed for most high efficiency stoves. Where an open fire (installed correctly) can be 37% efficient and has a kw output of say 2.9kw. This would give you a heat input into the flue of about 4.9kw.

Compare this to an 82% efficient, 4.9kw stove and a heat input Into the flue of about 1.1kw.  There is now far less energy (heat) to warm the flue and move the airmass up the flueway. Relining with flexi and insulating with vermiculite allows these fire gases (smoke) to stay warm and evacuate at the flue terminal where they are supposed to. If you simply connect a stove into an existing clay liner or worse a large brick flue-way, the flue will have problems heating up and working as a flue should. The insulated flexi however will heat up rapidly and won't let smoke reach due point inside of your flue and leave tars and condensates inside which. And lead to a fire! Remember clean chimneys don't catch fires.

You wouldn't install a gas fire yourself so why put your family at risk and install a solid fuel appliance which can give off 400 times more CO (carbon monoxide) than a gas fire. Please be safe and contact a professional. A well established stove shop is only as good as the sub contractor that carries out the work. As a minimum please install a co alarm in the room with the appliance.

With regards to sweeping if doing it yourself you may get a viper brush system from wohler in the uk. Don'letter anyone put sewer rods inside of a flexi flue! If however you want the peace of mind that your chimney is As safe as can be please use a certified, insured and competent sweep. Ask for qualifications over the phone or in person. A professional sweep will clean, inspect and smoke test the appliance making sure there is enough ventilation to serve the appliance along with say an extractor fan, tumble dryer and maybe another appliance nearby.

Thanks,

Be safe,

George Tracey

Planet X

Hi George,
Just looked up the Wohler site re: Viper cleaning systems etc.
Can you recommend any particular model from the range, there seems to be loads of choices?
5" Lined flue in my case.
Cheers.

Planet X

Would I be right in assuming we're looking for a 15cm. diameter brush for a 5" lined flue? Seems about right?

seoirse1980

I'd go for the 9mm viper, the 15cm head will do you but you may also get a 5 inch poly brush and get an adapter made up that will take the standard brush with a ball on the end. If sweeping with stars they are designed to be used continuously in one direction through the flue, cutting away deposits as the go. Them when out the top reverse the star by pulling down and pull all the way to the bottom.

Hope this helps

The soot doctor

Planet X

Actually, I called your number minutes ago.

mikehunts

Hi sorry for butting in but is there anywhere in ireland to get one of those viper kits, i have been looking for months for poly brushes and rods, but everywhere seems to have the sewer rods and harder bristes heads.

Kenny Powers

mikehunts wrote: »

Hi sorry for butting in but is there anywhere in ireland to get one of those viper kits, i have been looking for months for poly brushes and rods, but everywhere seems to have the sewer rods and harder bristes heads.

I don't know where to get the viper if you find one at a reasonable price please post.

I got these quick delivery and do the job.

http://www.hotline-chimneys.co.uk/chimney-sweeping-rods/sweeping-rod-nylon-1-2inch.html

Planet X

Kenny, how much did it all work out at? Did you buy brush, rods adaptor etc.?
Viper is really expensive at about £325 a kit!!!

seoirse1980

Hotline are good to deal with and you may well be better off with the half inch nylon rods with an adaptor so you can order a standard poly brush with ball.

Whatever you do dont use sewer rods in a metal liner. Remember to always smoke test after sweeping and reseal any joints with appropriate heat resistant silicon.

If in doubt get a certified sweep out to do it for you and see if the installation is safe in the first place and check that you have adequate ventilation for the appliance.

The soot doctor

Kenny Powers

Planet X wrote: »

Kenny, how much did it all work out at? Did you buy brush, rods adaptor etc.?
Viper is really expensive at about £325 a kit!!!

I can't remember I think I got 7 rods (1 spare) and a 5" brush and the adapter to use a normal brush with the rods delivered for about 130e ~ I tried everywhere here and couldn't find anyone that sold them.

Planet X

Sounds good.
7 rods + 5" brush about €140.
Just might go for it.
Cheers.


PS. ordered.

Planet X

Just got my brush n rods today. Swept the lined flu in minutes, took all the firebacks out brushed and vacuumed the hard to get places. Lovely kit. Well worth it.
Peace of mind.

They were out of stock for about 10 days or so so a delay in getting the stuff but when shipped it was here in two days.
Good to deal with.

boiler break downs

flynnboy wrote: »

Hi Paddy

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Was all that expensive - you can mail that to me privately if you like, or just give me some kind of idea. Did you have to fill around the liner with vermiculite after installing it ?

How do you go about cleaning a liner like that, especially if you have an elbow connection at the back of the stove ?

Thanks for your help

you clean from the top then as far as you can reach from the bottom with aproprate brush and then empty it with a vac

gaskman

Can you get a way without using vermickulite around the flexi tw as I fitted my Hamco stove last year and it is working fine so far that is, how many bags dose it take to fill a chimney?

SIX PACK

Just installed a Flexi flue Liner for my stove today all i can say is it was well worth the €300 should of done it 2yrs ago when i bought the stove. We always had a problem with smoke when you open door to put in firewood. It was handy enough to install used a H cowl Hardware said it was best on the market Just had to borrow roof ladder off neighbour. Put big fire down this evening & No more smoke problems Delighted :-)

foglight

Don't forget folks that in the unlikely event of a chimney fire and house and contents damage that the insurance companies will be all over work that was carried out, especially if it was not to manufacturers specifications.

SIX PACK

Might have to do some alterations to 1 i put in so