Lance Armstrong

Fanny Cradock

No doubt this has been discussed before. However, I've heard this is Armstrong's last tour. I've also heard that this is in no small part due to his past catching up with him, specifically allegations from the likes of Floyd Landis. What are people's opinions with regards to his career? It seems quite sad if it transpired that his achievements were on the back of something that should, IMO, be considered shameful.

petethedrummer

We had a big discussion on it here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055916588

What do you think? Do you reckon he doped?

xz

Everyone has doped at some stage or another;)

Harrybelafonte

I was reading the Cycle Sport guide to the TdF yesterday and his little win graph was hilarious DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, 36th, 2 years off, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st etc

Idleater

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, 36th, 2 years off, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st etc

Must be a good doctor...

amjon.

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I was reading the Cycle Sport guide to the TdF yesterday and his little win graph was hilarious DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, 36th, 2 years off, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st etc

Yeah, did you not read the book? He lost few kilos and pedalled a bit faster.

sxt

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

No doubt this has been discussed before. However, I've heard this is Armstrong's last tour. I've also heard that this is in no small part due to his past catching up with him, specifically allegations from the likes of Floyd Landis. What are people's opinions with regards to his career? It seems quite sad if it transpired that his achievements were on the back of something that should, IMO, be considered shameful.

I think this thread has been done to death. Reading between the lines, you should Look up Floyd Landis's checkered past including him needing $2 million for legal costs and asking "fans" to donate to his cause, and the convenient timing of his allegations..

Lance armstrong has got thousands of people into cycling and I would love it if people talked more about his cycling

Junior

sxt wrote: »

I think this thread has been done to death. Reading between the lines, you should Look up Floyd Landis's checkered past including him needing $2 million for legal costs and asking "fans" to donate to his cause, and the convenient timing of his allegations..

Lance armstrong has got thousands of people into cycling and I would love it if people talked more about his cycling

Bollix to that arguement, Lance has got millions upon millions 'donated' to his 'charity' because of his fame and fortunate that he got on the back of winning the TdF's. He has cheated everyone that believes in him, he has taken them all to the ****in cleaners.

sxt

Junior wrote: »

Bollix to that arguement, Lance has got millions upon millions 'donated' to his 'charity' because of his fame and fortunate that he got on the back of winning the TdF's. He has cheated everyone that believes in him, he has taken them all to the ****in cleaners.

You think one of the most famous sports person ever is in need of money? ...You think think he is canvasing and promoting the awareness of cancer,something he has the unfortunate experience to suffer from, everyday of his life to make money for himself?


edit . Also helped raise 325 million towards the fight against cancer, I'm sure if lance was pocketing the money himself the media would have known about it by now...

http://www.livestrong.org/What-We-Do/Our-Approach/Where-the-Money-Goes

jwshooter

Junior wrote: »

Bollix to that arguement, Lance has got millions upon millions 'donated' to his 'charity' because of his fame and fortunate that he got on the back of winning the TdF's. He has cheated everyone that believes in him, he has taken them all to the ****in cleaners.

can you post a link ,please

Junior

jwshooter wrote: »

can you post a link ,please

What do you mean a link ?

It's my belief he's a doper, and has sold everyone that believes in him a complete fabrication of a story i.e. the worlds greatest comeback. I've lent out some of his books to cancer patients, and as hard hearted as I am, you can't turn around to someone who could be dying and say yah don't bother reading that story he's just a dirty doper and he's eventually going to cheat you out of your hope, because he didn't come back from cancer and go out and win all those races clean, he had the most advanced systematic doping plan since the East Germans in the 70's and 80's.

His foundation is built on the premise that he got cancer, faught it, and then went onto win 7 Tour De France because he won the war on cancer so well. This doesn't denegrate the work the charity may do, but it's all based on a false premise. That he did it clean and naturally. He gives false hope to people.

Idleater

Junior wrote: »

He gives false hope to people.

Funnily enough, I don't think I agree with that. He gives false hope to many cycling people who (like me) either read between the lines and choose to believe that he attained his greatness through ill means, but to many people that have the unfortunate circumstances to be struck with a cancer, I believe reading any of his stories can only provide hope to them, that they can pull through.

Those people would (most likely) never have a goal to win a TdF, but if they can see him pull through cancer and win the TdF, maybe they can pull through to go on another family holiday or whatever.

ednwireland

i only had one prob with lance, i like to see my riders compete in more than one race a season, thats what i love about contador he actually seems to enjoy racing (even if he has doped) and takes part Competitively and has stated he wants to win classics etc. i think its a european racer attitude.

whilst Lance went for the biggest race (and who could blame him his body prob wasnt in a fit state to do a full season) but it has brought on a lot of people who seem to think that theres only one race that matters a season (bit like people on here dsaying the vuelta is a joke it has as much history as any other GT) particularly for the english speaking press suddenly bike racing exists.

as to his alleged doping, at this point, meh i watch bike racing if someone gets caught kick em out, give the career ending bans 6 years would be good (i mean 2 years to a 24 year old they go off take what they like for 12 months get clean - come back)

SubLuminal

There's no such thing as 'false hope' You either have hope, or you don't.

Also, this:

Mr. Presentable

Armstrong. If everyone else is doping, how can he beat them clean?

I firmly believe he is the cycling equivalent of Michelle Smyth. Remember she never produced a positive. She tampered with a sample, he tampered with Lab staff.

IMO, Armstrong is a cheat, possibly the most successful sports cheat ever.

alfalad

Also helped raise 325 million towards the fight against cancer, I'm sure if lance was pocketing the money himself the media would have known about it by now...

I'd like to see how much is raised against how much goes out to research and hospitals etc. See is there much of a difference?

Lumen

alfalad wrote: »

I'd like to see how much is raised against how much goes out to research and hospitals etc. See is there much of a difference!

Which LiveStrong are you talking about?

http://www.livestrong.com/aboutus/

"While LIVESTRONG.ORG remains a nonprofit, LIVESTRONG.COM is a for-profit that derives its revenue from advertising and member subscriptions."

As far as the Lance Armstrong Foundation is concerned, see here.

alfalad

Lumen wrote: »

Which LiveStrong are you talking about?

http://www.livestrong.com/aboutus/

"While LIVESTRONG.ORG remains a nonprofit, LIVESTRONG.COM is a for-profit that derives its revenue from advertising and member subscriptions."

As far as the Lance Armstrong Foundation is concerned, see here.

So Livestrong.com piggy backs off the name and makes plenty of money?

Lumen

alfalad wrote: »

So Livestrong.com piggy backs off the name and makes plenty of money?

I don't know how much money it makes.

There is information on the charity accounts on the LAF website here. They say "81 cents of every dollar raised has gone directly to support our programs and services for survivors." I don't know how reliable that figure is or how it compares with other charities.

FWIW I have no particular axe to grind about Livestrong, I just don't like the man. He sets off my Damian-Thorn-O-Meter.

jwshooter

so its ok to post on a open forum ,that " I MY OPINION " armstrong or any one for that matter is a cheat ,drug taker ,taking money from his foundation etc .

there is a breach of the forum character some where in there .

Lumen

jwshooter wrote: »

so its ok to post on a open forum ,that " I MY OPINION " armstrong or any one for that matter is a cheat ,drug taker ,taking money from his foundation etc .

there is a breach of the forum character some where in there .

I'd ask that any defamatory comments be checked for spelling and grammar. It makes it easier for the lawyers.

ednwireland

jwshooter wrote: »

so its ok to post on a open forum ,that " I MY OPINION " armstrong or any one for that matter is a cheat ,drug taker ,taking money from his foundation etc .

there is a breach of the forum character some where in there .

just put allegedly in front of ever sentence (worked for have i got news for you)

i'll say one thing about armstrong what we gonna talk about if he retires

Comm2

ednwireland wrote: »

i'll say one thing about armstrong what we gonna talk about if he retires

Young emerging clean cyclists hopefully.

petethedrummer

sxt wrote: »

I would love it if people talked more about his cycling

Hey, how about those seven tours de france he cheated his way to. Those were great.

RobFowl

Comm2 wrote: »

Young emerging clean cyclists hopefully.

Yeah Ricco et al really impress as the changing face of the peleton.

The Babygiro has shown that doping seems to be a ting of the past too

(no wait ... aww F*ck)

Vélo

ednwireland wrote: »

i'll say one thing about armstrong what we gonna talk about if he retires

Probably still Lance Armstrong

ROK ON

I saw two cyclists the other day on the Dingle peninsula. One guy on a Wilier Triestina and full Livestrong kit.
Just saying.

ednwireland

ROK ON wrote: »

I saw two cyclists the other day on the Dingle peninsula. One guy on a Wilier Triestina and full Livestrong kit.
Just saying.

thats just so wrong

shoulda been on a trek

Moflojo

Lance Armstrong is the best at what he does, probably the best of all time.

Now you can't argue with that...

Ruprecht

http://www.freakingnews.com/7th-Summit-Pictures-15652.asp

The future for Lance after retirement.


2030. Lance comes out of retirement again despite questions about his age. Whats his secret they ask?

http://www.freakingnews.com/Tour-de-France-Pictures-15634.asp

petethedrummer

Moflojo wrote: »

Lance Armstrong is the best at what he does, probably the best of all time.

The best blood manipulator? I'd go along with that.

AstraMonti

Moflojo wrote: »

Lance Armstrong is the best at what he does, probably the best of all time.

Now you can't argue with that...

hahaha well put, really well put.

Wolfe Tone

All this said without proof....

irishmotorist

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

All this said without proof....

There is more than enough circumstantial evidence, not to mention eye witness reports from team-mates and associates, to convince me that there was more than high carb dinners going on behind closed doors.

alfalad

Moflojo wrote: »

Lance Armstrong is the best at what he does, probably the best of all time.

Now you can't argue with that...

It's almost Friday but not quite!

And I believe a lot of people can and will!

Moflojo

Bring on Friday...

joker77

The chap still has a lot of believers - I saw a lot of Livestrong and Radioshack jerseys recently on the WW200...

iregk

Moflojo wrote: »

Lance Armstrong is the best at what he does, probably the best of all time.

Now you can't argue with that...

I can argue all night long with that. In my opinion Eddie Merckx is the greatest of all time.

Tell me why Lance is better than him and I'll give you a hundred reasons why its the other way around.

Moflojo

iregk wrote: »

I can argue all night long with that. In my opinion Eddie Merckx is the greatest of all time.

Tell me why Lance is better than him and I'll give you a hundred reasons why its the other way around.

I'll save you a lot of bother and simply point to my use of the word 'probably'.

jwshooter

iregk wrote: »

I can argue all night long with that. In my opinion Eddie Merckx is the greatest of all time.

Tell me why Lance is better than him and I'll give you a hundred reasons why its the other way around.

Merckx was done 3 times for doping was he not

RobFowl

jwshooter wrote: »

Merckx was done 3 times for doping was he not

Back when a doping violation resulted in a slap on the wrist with a feather duster :rolleyes:

Junior

jwshooter wrote: »

Merckx was done 3 times for doping was he not

This makes him a worse cyclist how ?

Moflojo

They're both excellent exponents of their arts. Difficult to distinguish between the two.

jwshooter

Junior wrote: »

This makes him a worse cyclist how ?

the FACTS are he was done for doping , so did he dope for all his wins ?.

you seam to know ,so you tell us .

Zascar

I really really really want to see him go down. Surely the feds being involved means they can do what it takes to retest old samples for everything and find something??

petethedrummer

Moflojo wrote: »

They're both excellent exponents of their arts.

They're not. The doping was different.

In Christophe Bassons' book he claims that a teammate of his went from a VO2 max of 65 to 91 in the space of 3 months due to blood doping. That's like going from a (very?) low level pro to Greg Lemond standard. Amphetemines and 1960's simulants won't do that. Bassons' VO2max was around 85, the talent of Hinault and Jalabert he was told. He was also told he would win Paris Roubaix if he would resort to a little help, but he didn't. Bassons had to target early season one day races when most of the peloton were in the early stages of their doping programs. Hinault dominated races he entered, Bassons was nowhere.

That is not to say Merckx wouldn't have resorted to blood doping if it were available to him, Merckx after all is supposedly the guy who introduced Armstrong to Dr. Ferrari. But blood doping wasn't available in Merckx's time so the cream still rose to the top.


Edit: The reason I bring up Bassons is that he was a contemporary of Armstrong's, 1 year younger, enormously talented and enormously principled. The Armstrong era is like watching WWE, you cannot draw any reasonable conclusions as to who the best cyclists were.

Junior

jwshooter wrote: »

the FACTS are he was done for doping , so did he dope for all his wins ?.

you seam to know ,so you tell us .

No, I don't sew, stitch or do seams, the statement was put that iregk believes that In my opinion Eddie Merckx is the greatest of all time.

You seem to think that him being caught for doping makes him a worse cyclist that LA, I asked the question why or how do you think this ?

-Trek-

I cant' count the number of threads I have read at this stage regarding did he or didn't he. But for someone who is relatively new to this sport (me) I don't understand how someone could possibly win seven TdF's and evade a positive test (if he was doping).

Forgive my naivety in advance.

jwshooter

Junior wrote: »

Bollix to that arguement, Lance has got millions upon millions 'donated' to his 'charity' because of his fame and fortunate that he got on the back of winning the TdF's. He has cheated everyone that believes in him, he has taken them all to the ****in cleaners.

im not the one running any cyclist down hear , as i dont know the facts .

Merckx was class on a bike ,as was kelly ,as is Armstrong now .the man is almost 40 and still doing it . possibly the most tested athlete on the planet .

im not fool enough to think cycling was/is a drug free sport ,nor am i fool enough to make a statement like above .

you dont like Armstrong for what ever reason ,i would suggest getting over it ,learn to live with it .

personally i think the man is a inspiration and wish him well .

petethedrummer

Trekmad wrote: »

I cant' count the number of threads I have read at this stage regarding did he or didn't he. But for someone who is relatively new to this sport (me) I don't understand how someone could possibly win seven TdF's and evade a positive test (if he was doping).

Forgive my naivety in advance.

Forgiven.

Here are some ways:
1. Being made aware you are going to be tested.
2. Back dating an exemption for use of a banned substance (then donating some money to the UCI).
3. Using Autologous blood transfusions.
4. Using large quantities of EPO until Epo is detectable.
5. Doping with EPO and blood transfusions up to the old 50% hematocrit rule.
6. When EPO is detectable, Micro does it by injecting straight into the blood stream, Clears in around 8 hrs..
7. Using small amounts of soap on your fingernails to spoil samples (not sure how genuine this method is).
8. Make testers wait at the door of your house(or tour bus) so you can take whatever masking agents.
9. Live in a country with no out of competition testing, e.g. Spain.
10. Be involved in a sport which had no real interest in finding dopers. (though Tennis and Football have no interest either).
11. Take undetectable human growth hormone.
12. Take steroids in the off season to promote muscle growth and aid recovery. The larger muscles become an advantage when combined with doped blood.
13. Eat asparagus (this maybe be nonsense).

petethedrummer

jwshooter wrote: »

possibly the most tested athlete on the planet

No. He lived in Spain which for a long time had no out of competition testing regime. He also did not compete or podium in many races during the season apart from the tour, so he would not have been tested while others were.

He does of course twitter/moan about being tested all the time, which may lead one to believe he is.