Guards refusing to fill out passport application

smeedyova

Hi all, I went into Pearse Street station today to have the Garda part of the passport application form completed and the garda refused to do it. They have a sign up saying that you have to get this done in your 'local' station. However, on the form itself it is clear that this can be done in any garda station. To my mind this is unconstitutional. Doesn't it also suggest that the guards in that station are on strike -- if they are not willing to do work that they are obligated to do? Does anybody know if they are within their rights to refuse to do this?

PCPhoto

no offence to you but is it too much of an inconvenience to goto your local garda station ?

best of my knowledge the garda is supposed to be able to recognise you (ie. your local garda station will have gardai on the beat in your local area)

to be honest I never thought about it being a breach of civil liberties or some rubbish like that when gardai tell me that I need to get the form signed in my local garda station (my local station would be near my home in Cork - I live in Dublin but all my documents and official address are my place in Cork)

Our man in Havana

You are correct that it does not have be your local station. I have never had a form stamped in my local station. I have used Pearse Street before for a passport application without issue. Now due to its' proximity to the passport office perhaps the management have become browned off with culchies coming in looking for forms to be stamped.

best of my knowledge the garda is supposed to be able to recognise you (ie. your local garda station will have gardai on the beat in your local area)

No. Not at all. All he is saying is that you are the person in the photographs and he is merely witnessing your signature.

i like lamp

the whole idea of it is that gaurd can say 'yes its really you' even though he might not know you, but when its local there is more of a chance of him actually having an idea of who you are! Stops fraud i suppose!

But i do understand that it says a garda station on the paper, but it seems to be the case of the local garda station all over the country!

So you are not alone!

Mr. Presentable

smeedyova wrote: »

Hi all, I went into Pearse Street station today to have the Garda part of the passport application form completed and the garda refused to do it. They have a sign up saying that you have to get this done in your 'local' station. However, on the form itself it is clear that this can be done in any garda station. To my mind this is unconstitutional. Doesn't it also suggest that the guards in that station are on strike -- if they are not willing to do work that they are obligated to do? Does anybody know if they are within their rights to refuse to do this?

It probably makes no difference to which station you attend, unless you are "known" to the Gardai, because they won't know you. But the form part for the Gardai is their confirmation that to their belief you are who you claim to be. I guess you are less likely to personate at your local station.

I suggest going to your local.

Whitewater-AGS

Passports should be signed in your local Garda station and any Garda is well within the law refusing to sign your passport as technically the Garda should personally know you as thats what they are signing on the back of the form.

i like lamp

Haddockman wrote: »

with culchies coming in looking for forms to be stamped.

why single out 'culchies'? thats a bit rude!!! People travel to the passport office if they need it in an emergency, otherwise its just posted

novarock

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Passports should be signed in your local Garda station and any Garda is well within the law refusing to sign your passport as technically the Garda should personally know you as thats what they are signing on the back of the form.

This has happened to me before in my local station. Garda refused to sign because they didnt know my face.. I requested to speak to their superintendent who was not pleased at all about this. His exact words were "how could you possibly know every face around here, now sign it"

There is no way that they can not sign it based on not knowing you. If you have had no reason to speak to the gardai ten why would they know you.

smeedyova

Thanks for the replies but most of you seem to be missing my point: I believe that the guards are breaking the law by refusing to do this and my question is whether I am correct or not. (BTW Yes, it would inconvenience me to go my local station and no garda would recognise me there anyway -- and why should I when the Department of Foreign Affairs says that I don't have to?). According to the form, which I have here in front of me the garda must ''...certify that s/he is satisfied as to your identity and that the photographs are a true likeness of you.'' It does not say that you must be 'personally' known to the garda as some people are suggesting. It also says that you must bring it to ''a'' garda station, it does not say that you must bring to your local one. This is unambiguous.

Our man in Havana

You can always take the matter up with the Garda Ombudsman.

smeedyova

Haddockman wrote: »

You can always take the matter up with the Garda Ombudsman.

I will. But I'll wait until I have my new passport

Wouldn't it be nice to have a job in which you could just put a poster up saying that you weren't going to do some of the tasks allotted to you! I find this especially annoying because I pay their wages.

cushtac

smeedyova wrote: »

Thanks for the replies but most of you seem to be missing my point: I believe that the guards are breaking the law by refusing to do this and my question is whether I am correct or not.

What law do you think he broke?

Whitewater-AGS

novarock wrote: »

This has happened to me before in my local station. Garda refused to sign because they didnt know my face.. I requested to speak to their superintendent who was not pleased at all about this. His exact words were "how could you possibly know every face around here, now sign it"

There is no way that they can not sign it based on not knowing you. If you have had no reason to speak to the gardai ten why would they know you.

You dont have to like it but thats the way it is, my own personal opinion is that garda should have no input in passport forms as its a waste of Garda time filling such forms in.

And if any super directed me to complete a passport form I was not happy completing in the first place I'd kinda remind them that they are more than welcome to fill the form in themselves.

smeedyova

cushtac wrote: »

What law do you think he broke?

Well, it's the guard's job to complete the forms, right? If he/she refuses to do his/her job it means that he/she is on strike, and they are not allowed to strike. So that would be one law, I think. I'm not a lawyer so I can't name other ones.

Whitewater-AGS

smeedyova wrote: »

Well, it's the guard's job to complete the forms, right? If he/she refuses to do his/her job it means that he/she is on strike, and they are not allowed to strike. So that would be one law, I think. I'm not a lawyer so I can't name other ones.

:rolleyes: Good one, I've already explained that any Garda can refuse to complete any passport if they dont know you and no its not against any law or is it a strike

smeedyova

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

You dont have to like it but thats the way it is, my own personal opinion is that garda should have no input in passport forms as its a waste of Garda time filling such forms in.

And if any super directed me to complete a passport form I was not happy completing in the first place I'd kinda remind them that they are more than welcome to fill the form in themselves.

Whitewater -- I'm afraid that it is not the 'way it is' as it cleary says on official documents produced by the state (the passport application form). It might be way the guards want people to think it is -- but anybody who can read a form knows that this is false.

thebiglad

Would you ever just get over it - the Garda on duty was being fussy rather than lazy - how much work do you really think it is to stamp and sign a photo?

Are there not other options than Garda to sign the photo too?

TBH I would rather it was a requirement that the party approving the photo is also accepting that they know you or you have been introduced to them by someone trustworthy and confirms it is you.

Whitewater-AGS

smeedyova wrote: »

Whitewater -- I'm afraid that it not the 'way it is' as it cleary says on official documents produced by the state (the passport application form). It might be way the guards want people to think it is -- but anybody who can read a form knows that this is false.

Yes and anyone who has the authority to complete said offical document will tell you it is, we are the one's who have to be satisified to your i.d and the one's who risk their job if we get it wrong so yes we can refuse to sign anything espically a passport, I can however accept your old passport or even have you introduced to me by someone I know however thats the choice of each Garda.

Our man in Havana

If I walked into my "local" station I can guarantee you that no one on duty would know me.

As I have said earlier I have used many non local stations and none of the members there have ever had a problem signing forms for me.

It seems to be a matter of discretion for the Garda on duty.

i like lamp

i had to travel to three garda stations before i could get my last passport form signed! I left my house and drove 20 minutes to the NEAREST STATION to be told i need to go to my local station. I live on the border of two counties and crossed over into the other county to our nearest station. So off i trek for a further 30 mins to what the gardai in the first station told me is my local station. Arrived there and was rejected again, he made a phonecall to a small station that only opens for a few hours per day. I was hopping at this stage because the gaurd in the first station had told me that the second station was my LOCAL and the third station that i then had to go to I had already passed! So i had to race 20 minutes back down the road to get to the third station before it closed and they signed it.

Total Journey time = 1 hour 10 minutes

The garda in the second station was really sympathetic though when he knew i had been sent on a wild goose chase. However, he said he couldnt sign it because it wasnt the local station, he really appeared to be tied down. It wasnt out of laziness on that occasion because he made phonecalls for gardai to wait around at the third station for me etc! I dont see why he would go to that trouble and why another station would stay open when it was meant to close to sign the form when the other garda could have!
The garda in the third station also said that it has to be a garda in a local station!

If it was a once off i would say it was a garda being petty! But the majority of the force are hardly in on the 'not signing the passport' scam are they! :rolleyes: :eek:

i had no problem going to the local station, i just didnt like not knowing where the local station actually was

cushtac

smeedyova wrote: »

Well, it's the guard's job to complete the forms, right? If he/she refuses to do his/her job it means that he/she is on strike, and they are not allowed to strike. So that would be one law, I think. I'm not a lawyer so I can't name other ones.

In other words you haven't a clue so you just lash out terms like 'against the law' and 'unconstitutional' because they sound good.

It is not a Garda's job to complete passport forms, it is an additional task that is carried out. Failure to complete a passport form does not constitute a withdrawal of labour. Even if it did, refusing to complete your form does not mean he was refusing to complete all forms.

smeedyova

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

:rolleyes: Good one, I've already explained that any Garda can refuse to complete any passport if they dont know you and no its not against any law or is it a strike

Well, if you can point me to the law that states that I'll run with it So far the only concrete information we have in this discussion is my quote from the Department of Foreign Affairs which states that you can bring it to any garda station. Can anybody reference a law in which it states that you must be personally known to the garda? More subjective opinions are welcome but documented evidence would be better

smeedyova

cushtac wrote: »

In other words you haven't a clue so you just lash out terms like 'against the law' and 'unconstitutional' because they sound good.

It is not a Garda's job to complete passport forms, it is an additional task that is carried out. Failure to complete a passport form does not constitute a withdrawal of labour. Even if it did, refusing to complete your form does not mean he was refusing to complete all forms.

Can you support your claim by pointing me to the law which says that the guards don't have to do this? If the guards don't have to do this then why are we instructed by the Department of Foreign Affairs to have the form completed by a garda? An additional task is a task.

Also, I do have a clue what I am talking about, so there is no need to be offensive.

Whitewater-AGS

smeedyova wrote: »

Well, if you can point me to the law that states that I'll run with it So far the only concrete information we have in this discussion is my quote from the Department of Foreign Affairs which states that you can bring it to any garda station. Can anybody reference a law in which it states that you must be personally known to the garda? More subjective opinions are welcome but documented evidence would be better

Look believe what you want but since two of us who actually complete those forms have already answered you i'll waste no more time banging my head against the wall.

Happy travels:rolleyes:

cushtac

smeedyova wrote: »

Can anybody reference a law in which it states that you must be personally known to the garda?

Can you reference a law that obliges the Gardaí to sign the form? If you can, take your grievance to the Ombudsman. If you cant, you haven't a leg to stand on.

i like lamp

smeedyova wrote: »

Well, if you can point me to the law that states that I'll run with it So far the only concrete information we have in this discussion is my quote from the Department of Foreign Affairs which states that you can bring it to any garda station. Can anybody reference a law in which it states that you must be personally known to the garda? More subjective opinions are welcome but documented evidence would be better

perhaps the form is wrong :P

you could have just emailed the passport office and the garda ombudsman to see which side is right instead of making all of us get ratty and throw legal shmuck at each other.....

lets just all hug and make up...

smeedyova

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Look believe what you want but since two of us who actually complete those forms have already answered you i'll waste no more time banging my head against the wall.

Happy travels:rolleyes:

Thanks for your replies but all you did was tell me that the guards can do what they want, which is not the case. They have to answer to the laws of the land and unless you can point me to the law which supports your argument I'm afraid we'll just have to leave it at that.:)

thebullkf

smeedyova wrote: »

I will. But I'll wait until I have my new passport

Wouldn't it be nice to have a job in which you could just put a poster up saying that you weren't going to do some of the tasks allotted to you! I find this especially annoying because I pay their wages.

woop de fookin doo



get over yourself.

you've been asked already.

Can you reference a law that obliges the Gardaí to sign the form?


comments and attitudes like yours above aren't helpful.

HTFU
:rolleyes:

smeedyova

i like lamp wrote: »

perhaps the form is wrong :P

you could have just emailed the passport office and the garda ombudsman to see which side is right instead of making all of us get ratty and throw legal shmuck at each other.....

lets just all hug and make up...

Er, I wasn't ratty (nor can I answer for other people getting ratty). I am perfectly capable of having a discussion with people who don't agree with me! You can hug whoever you feel you got ratty with though!

TouchingVirus

More to the point, can you reference a law that states the refusal to sign your form constitutes a withdrawal of work? Can you find a law that states the Gardai must sign your application form? The Gardai are answerable to the Department of Justice and Law Reform, it doesn't matter what's wrote on the Department of Foreign Affairs paper. There are many potential reasons why getting signed at the local station appears to be standard Garda practice - less likely to impersonate at your local station, higher chance they will know you or know your witnesses and could possibly confirm your identity with them etc etc. Some Gardai care, some don't. You got one who was fussy and used their discretion to refuse to sign the form. Try again tomorrow or go to another station.

As for subjective experiences; My dad went to get his first passport in the 90s in the local station and the Garda on duty refused to sign the form because he didn't know him personally. i.e. he was unsatisfied that my Dad was who he wrote down he was. This is what the Garda is indicating by signing your form. In the end my Dad posted the form down to a Garda he knew working in Cork who signed the form and posted it back. The Gardai don't know me and I had no problem going into a random Garda station to get them to sign the form. I did bring several other forms of identity and my birth cert though incase they were unsure of me.

i like lamp

smeedyova wrote: »

Er, I wasn't ratty (nor can I answer for other people getting ratty). I am perfectly capable of having a discussion with people who don't agree with me! You can hug whoever you feel you got ratty with though!

jeez! it was a joke :eek: stop getting ratty with me...... want to hug it out???

look, just email the passport office and the garda ombudsman and see what they say!

just because its a state paper does not mean its correct, look at those leaving cert accounting papers! That was a big boo boo!!! Could be an error on the form, doesnt look like they have changed with a long time!

The only place you will get a solid answer is if you send your query to the two places i mentioned above!

I dont see the problem with going to the local garda station! It would be worse if they were signing fake passport forms for god sake! Doesnt it ask on the form about your past? If you are known to the guards then it will be the local garda that will know you! Maybe thats the reason! If you have a clean slate then it might be an inconvenience! But is it reallllly that much of an inconvenience?

smeedyova

i like lamp wrote: »

jeez! it was a joke :eek: stop getting ratty with me...... want to hug it out???



Yeah, I'm just going to ask the official people and report it to the Garda Ombudsman.:)

TouchingVirus

smeedyova wrote: »

...and report it to the Garda Ombudsman.:)

A tremendous waste of time and resources of the Garda Ombudsman. The Garda was not happy you were who you said you were on the form. If he's not happy he doesn't sign. End of story. Next time prove who you are, bring bills, an Agecard, bank statements or whatever and satisfy the Garda on duty. Your complaint should go in the bin IMO

i like lamp

smeedyova wrote: »

i like lamp wrote: »

jeez! it was a joke :eek: stop getting ratty with me...... want to hug it out???



Yeah, I'm just going to ask the official people and report it to the Garda Ombudsman.:)

yeah, i would ask both! See what the garda ombudsman states is policy as well! Judging by the state of the way this country is run, i wouldnt be relying on the answer of one side! Incosistincies isnt exactly rare in this country!

I like the idea of going to the local station because of what i said in the last post! Just because you have a clear record and they dont know you doesnt mean that your neighbour has. Chances are the local garda station are going to be the only ones that will know your neighbour. He/she might be trying to do a runner :eek: They might be a russian spy! So many possibilities.

I wouldnt be getting to worked up over it though, its only a minor thing at the end of the day. Theres plenty more major things to be worrying about these days!

Post back with their replies just out of curiosity... and then we can rebel against the side who are wrong! I will burn my bra outside their door! :pac:

cushtac

smeedyova wrote: »

Can you support your claim by pointing me to the law which says that the guards don't have to do this? If the guards don't have to do this then why are we instructed by the Department of Foreign Affairs to have the form completed by a garda? An additional task is a task.

Read the back of the form where the Garda signs; it says that the Garda must only sign if he or she is satisfied as to the identity of the applicant - that in itself says that the Garda is not obliged to sign it.

The Garda refused to sign your form precisely because he wasn't satisfied and referred you back to your local station because: (a) they are more likely to know you and (b) they would be in a better position to carry out any further inquiries if necessary.

smeedyova wrote: »

Also, I do have a clue what I am talking about, so there is no need to be offensive.

You obviously don't, otherwise you wouldn't have called the refusal 'unconstitutional'.

smeedyova wrote:

Thanks for your replies but all you did was tell me that the guards can do what they want, which is not the case. They have to answer to the laws of the land and unless you can point me to the law which supports your argument I'm afraid we'll just have to leave it at that.

Gardaí can & do answer to the laws of the land, and you've yet to prove that the Garda in question did so (which is up to you btw, not the other way around). If you are that convinced the law has been broken and your constitutional rights to have a form stamped have been infringed you should make a complaint to the Ombudsman.

smeedyova

TouchingVirus wrote: »

A tremendous waste of time and resources of the Garda Ombudsman. The Garda was not happy you were who you said you were on the form. If he's not happy he doesn't sign. End of story. Next time prove who you are, bring bills, an Agecard, bank statements or whatever and satisfy the Garda on duty. Your complaint should go in the bin IMO

I had all of those things with me. The garda made no effort to look at any of my papers.

smeedyova

i like lamp wrote: »

hold up!!

did you not bring any other i.d???

Yeah, I brought all my old teachers with me Will PM you when I have a documented answer.

Delancey

That such a mickey mouse matter should form the basis for a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman is, in my opinion , a truly appalling waste of state resources.
OP - as others have said : get over it !