Positioning of smaller DART units on platforms.

Run_to_da_hills

I took a 4 car Dart into the city this morning and the driver stopped at the very front of each platform as if he was driving a longer 8 car set. It left passengers at Dunlaoghaire and other stations having to rush down about three carrage lengths to catch the train, not really fair on the elderly who would expect the train to stop where it normally stops.

It wouldn't take much to programme the LED screens to inform people whether its four six or 8 car dart and also have markings on the platforms where each would stop. I have seen this in the UK and on the continent.

Cookie_Monster

regardsless of length it always stops at the very end as thats where the camera and tv screen is so this IS the normal spot.

If people weren't so lazy and stupid and walked up the platform when they first get there it wouldn't be an issue, and you're more likely to get a seat in the front carraige anyway as so many don't currently.

and for every station that you have to walk down the end of you don't at another. DL southbound for example is the opposite to northbound so it all evens out

steamengine

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I took a 4 car Dart into the city this morning and the driver stopped at the very front of each platform as if he was driving a longer 8 car set. It left passengers at Dunlaoghaire and other stations having to rush down about three carrage lengths to catch the train, not really fair on the elderly who would expect the train to stop where it normally stops.

It wouldn't take much to programme the LED screens to inform people whether its four six or 8 car dart and also have markings on the platforms where each would stop. I have seen this in the UK and on the continent.

My son took a four car Dart out from Connolly north bound this morning and the same thing happened. The Dart stopped at the very far end of the platform and people had to rush to reach the last carriage. Common sense would dictate that the centre of a train stops mid platform but as I heard once common sense isn't all that common. Next stage will be pulling away before the passengers have time to board !!! :rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

Stop yer moaning. It is best practice to draw up to the top of the platform where the TV screen and signal is.

robbie_998

i had that just today heading down to dun laoghire but i knew the train had to stop at the end for signals and camera's etc.

the thing i was annoyed about was the fact the train was only like 4 - 6 carriages and left an awful lot of space at the back for another 4.

i mean this was a refurbished dart from the olden days and im thinking while they were away getting suped up we had new darts over.... surely theres enough to go around ?

foggy_lad

If people weren't so lazy and stupid and walked up the platform when they first get there it wouldn't be an issue, and you're more likely to get a seat in the front carraige anyway as so many don't currently.

stopping at the very end of the platform is not really necessary especially with intercity trains it is just another way irish rail abuse their position and treat passengers as an inconvenience!

steamengine

Haddockman wrote: »

Stop yer moaning. It is best practice to draw up to the top of the platform where the TV screen and signal is.

Why not inform the passengers then of this situation, so they are not inconvenienced, and Darts are not delayed by the cumulative effect of this recurring station after station ? A simple prominent notice, the LED display or Tannoy !!!

etchyed

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

rIf people weren't so lazy and stupid and walked up the platform when they first get there it wouldn't be an issue, and you're more likely to get a seat in the front carraige anyway as so many don't currently.

What an idiotic post. Anyone who's used only to getting a train at peak times would not be aware that they should move to the front of the platform. It's standard practice at even backwater stations in the UK to announce to passengers where along the platform the train will stop.

In the case of the DART, shorter trains always stop at the front, so it's not like the PIS would need to be upgraded to add info for each individual train. At times when shorter trains are operating it wouldn't be much trouble for IÉ to simply add in a catch-all "train will stop towards the front of the platform" warning amongst all the usual stuff about what lifts are out of order.

EDIT: Just read RTDH's point that the PIS should give the number of carriages and that there should be markings on platforms. Obviously this is what should be aimed for but this being Irish Rail, a catch-all announcement such as the above is probably the best that could be expected.

etchyed

Haddockman wrote: »

Stop yer moaning. It is best practice to draw up to the top of the platform where the TV screen and signal is.

That's really not the point.

Our man in Havana

So you would prefer a train to stop mid platform to suit you?

etchyed

Haddockman wrote: »

So you would prefer a train to stop mid platform to suit you?

No, I wouldn't. As I said, that's not the point. Read some of the other posts in this thread and you might pick up on what the point is.

sdanseo

The train should stop where the passengers are, to be honest. If that means an extra mirror or even signal display then so be it, would only be needed on curved platforms.

At worst, a line on the LCD display "this will be a short train which will stop at the end of the platform" would cost nothing. Customer care and all that.

Breezer

The problem is that trains don't always stop at the top of the platform. Maybe they're supposed to, but they don't always. I usually walk up that end to try get a seat or at least some breathing room, and I've had to run back down to the middle of the platform plenty of times.

Cookie_Monster

etchyed wrote: »

. It's standard practice at even backwater stations in the UK to announce to passengers where along the platform the train will stop.

:rolleyes:

and it standard practice here that they always stop at the end of the platform. if you've gotten more than one train here ever you'd know that.

this is where the screens are so driver can see the platform.

loyatemu

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

regardsless of length it always stops at the very end as thats where the camera and tv screen is so this IS the normal spot.

If people weren't so lazy and stupid and walked up the platform when they first get there it wouldn't be an issue, and you're more likely to get a seat in the front carraige anyway as so many don't currently.

and for every station that you have to walk down the end of you don't at another. DL southbound for example is the opposite to northbound so it all evens out

they generally pull up to the end of the platform, but not always. In Pearse it's very hit and miss, (possibly because there's often a guard on the platform to wave the flag/blow the whistle) and I've had to run back down the southbound platform on numerous occasions.

Its only become an issue since they extended all the platforms, and its not an issue at all when they run 8-carriage trains, which they were doing all the time a couple of years ago, but not always now.

The problem is caused by IE stopping occasionally very short trains (eg 3 carriage Rosslare trains) on very long platforms and not informing people of where on the platform they will be stopping. So is it because IE are bad at giving useful information to their customers, or because everyone is lazy and stupid except you?

Cookie_Monster

loyatemu wrote: »

Its only become an issue since they extended all the platforms, and its not an issue at all when they run 8-carriage trains, which they were doing all the time a couple of years ago, but not always now.

which makes sense cos there's no need to always run 8 carraige trains. Increases power consumption and maintainence costs needlessly.

loyatemu wrote: »

So is it because IE are bad at giving useful information to their customers, or because everyone is lazy and stupid except you?

little bit of A little bit of B :pac:

Del2005

I rarely get the Dart and it would be handy if they announced where the train was going to stop. It is Public Transport after all and I thought they where trying to get Us to use it. By making people run up the platform thats creating a bad impression and not encouraging the public to use it.

Carawaystick

The RER in the greater Paris area have "train court" or "train long" on the platform displays and markings on the platforms showing where the short trains stop.
Hardly Rocket Science

etchyed

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

if you've gotten more than one train here ever you'd know that.

What if you hadn't?

Or what if you'd only ever got the train at peak times when there are 8 carriages?

etchyed

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

little bit of A little bit of B :pac:

Ah, so now you're being flippant as if it was a little joke all along. Well it wasn't. Obviously this is an actual problem that the OP witnessed. Dismissing people as stupid and lazy is, as I said, idiotic.

robbie_998

etchyed wrote: »

Ah, so now you're being flippant as if it was a little joke all along. Well it wasn't. Obviously this is an actual problem that the OP witnessed. Dismissing people as stupid and lazy is, as I said, idiotic.

well actually no, Cookie is making sense here.

Tara street station is a perfect example for this heading south.

as soon as you come up the stair people walk a tiny bit and stop because they don't want to walk all the way to the end of the platform (i personally like this because i can walk to the end no problem and be guaranteed a seat because people are stupid and crowd down the back because their too lazy to walk up)

I remember a good one coming back from limerick ... you come through the doors to go to the platform and i remember walking along the train all the carriages were full to the brim from the back with people and big bags and luggage and it was really stuffy so i walked right to the very front of the train and would you believe... the two/three front carriages were empty ! i was the only one !

and this train filled up the entire platform too.

and its the same on the dart... people are just too lazy !

anytime i go to tara street i always walk down the very front near the roundy mirror and i always always get a seat !

etchyed

robbie_998 wrote: »

well actually no, Cookie is making sense here.

Tara street station is a perfect example for this heading south.

as soon as you come up the stair people walk a tiny bit and stop because they don't want to walk all the way to the end of the platform (i personally like this because i can walk to the end no problem and be guaranteed a seat because people are stupid and crowd down the back because their too lazy to walk up)

I remember a good one coming back from limerick ... you come through the doors to go to the platform and i remember walking along the train all the carriages were full to the brim from the back with people and big bags and luggage and it was really stuffy so i walked right to the very front of the train and would you believe... the two/three front carriages were empty ! i was the only one !

and this train filled up the entire platform too.

and its the same on the dart... people are just too lazy !

anytime i go to tara street i always walk down the very front near the roundy mirror and i always always get a seat !

Lovely story and all but once again, you're missing the point. I too enjoy walking to the front of a platform and getting a seat more easily.

However it is neither stupid nor lazy for an inexperienced passenger to assume that a shorter train will stop somewhere in the middle of a platform. In fact, to an inexperienced passenger, staying near the middle probably seems the safest bet. Irish Rail are yet again failing to provide basic (and this is basic) information to their customers.

The failure of some of the posters in this thread to see the big picture is mind-boggling. It's all starting to get a bit IRN.

Our man in Havana

I think you are the one missing the point.

I haven't been on IRN in years. Is it still as bad as ever?

Cookie_Monster

There is a line painted on most if not all stations where the lead carriage stops.
There is also a TV screen. If you can't see these and put 2 and 2 together that's your problem. Most people have enough sense and/or experience to know that this means the train will stop there.

And anyway there's never going to be a need to run, unless you walked all the way to the other end of the platform for some reason, even a four car DART is long enough to comfortably walk to in time no matter where you are on the platform.

As for people being stupid and lazy, if you get public transport on a regular basis you see this every day, people waiting until the bus turns up to look for change, everyone piling into the last DART carriage and having to stand even though there are plenty of seat further up, same for upstairs on a bus etc etc etc.

zagmund

Cookie - not all people are experts in speaking 'infrastructure'. They don't realise that the monitors at the end of the platform are for the drivers to use and so the drivers need to be there. They also have no idea whether the next train is going to be 4, 6 or 8 carriages long.

Indeed, even those that speak a little 'infrastructure' can be thrown off - you might notice the small bars painted on some platform edges - along the lines of II, III, IIII - these normally (from my experience of system in other countries) mark the front of 2, 3 & 4 unit trains and are used by drivers for picking the correct stopping point. Do IE use them ? Not that I'm aware of.

Even if everyone did know about the trains stopping at the very front of the platform you might reasonably expect them to all be standing at the very front also, in case IE decide to throw on a 2 car train out of the blue. As a result if everyone applied the same logic that's being suggested here you would find them all squashed into the front 2 or 4 carriages.

The bottom line here is that there should be no reason why IE can't clearly mark out and sign where passengers should wait for a train. People coming to the top of the stairs on both Pearse & Tara Street southbound are depositied in a location where trains regularly don't stop, yet there's no indication to tell them to move along the platform and no reason for people to assume they are left standing at the wrong place.

z

robbie_998

etchyed wrote: »

Lovely story and all but once again, you're missing the point. I too enjoy walking to the front of a platform and getting a seat more easily.

However it is neither stupid nor lazy for an inexperienced passenger to assume that a shorter train will stop somewhere in the middle of a platform. In fact, to an inexperienced passenger, staying near the middle probably seems the safest bet. Irish Rail are yet again failing to provide basic (and this is basic) information to their customers.

The failure of some of the posters in this thread to see the big picture is mind-boggling. It's all starting to get a bit IRN.

your missing another point that hasn't yet being mentioned

Darts and IE have always stopped at the end of the platform ALWAYS !

if people are too stupid to cop that then they deserve to walk or run to get their train.

Why should Dart or IE spend thousands on installing new mirrors/tv's just so the train can stop before the end ?

Its just a waste of money on electricity, man power and time for something thats not a problem.

and also spend more money on these mirrors and tv's being vandalized because now they are closer to them which are not at the end of the platform.

and seriously, how many people have missed their train because it didn't stop in front of them and they needed to walk about 10 feet ?


@last poster - I'm not at all any kind of expert on this but also at the same time in my life i have never ever seen any kind of train or tram for that matter in ireland stop before the end of the platform ever !

why should they start now just for a small minority when it won't make a difference anyway other than a 5 second walk ?

Cookie_Monster

robbie_998 wrote: »

Why should Dart or IE spend thousands on installing new mirrors/tv's just so the train can stop before the end ?
Its just a waste of money on electricity, man power and time for something thats not a problem.

this sums it up perfectly.

Run_to_da_hills

robbie_998 wrote: »

your missing another point that hasn't yet being mentioned

Darts and IE have always stopped at the end of the platform ALWAYS !

if people are too stupid to cop that then they deserve to walk or run to get their train.

Why should Dart or IE spend thousands on installing new mirrors/tv's just so the train can stop before the end ?

Its just a waste of money on electricity, man power and time for something thats not a problem.

and also spend more money on these mirrors and tv's being vandalized because now they are closer to them which are not at the end of the platform.

and seriously, how many people have missed their train because it didn't stop in front of them and they needed to walk about 10 feet ?


@last poster - I'm not at all any kind of expert on this but also at the same time in my life i have never ever seen any kind of train or tram for that matter in ireland stop before the end of the platform ever !

Not the point, no one knows when to expect 4 car Dart, if people were not sure they would only use the top half of the platform. A simple message in advance would solve this problem.

robbie_998 wrote: »

why should they start now just for a small minority when it won't make a difference anyway other than a 5 second walk ?

I would love to see an old age pensioner with a Zimmer frame walk two carriage lengths in 5 seconds. :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would love to see an old age pensioner with a Zimmer frame walk two carriage lengths in 5 seconds. :rolleyes:

but sure they'd be used to the days of 2 car DARTs and be up the end anyway

robbie_998

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not the point, no one knows when to expect 4 car Dart, if people were not sure they would only use the top half of the platform. A simple message in advance would solve this problem.

A simple message on the LED displays - fine but how many people actually pay attention to them for enough time to read all the messages ? about none !

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would love to see an old age pensioner with a Zimmer frame walk two carriage lengths in 5 seconds. :rolleyes:

elderly are always helped by staff to get to the platform and staff leave them up the platform where there is more space because people are down the back.

robbie_998

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but sure they'd be used to the days of 2 car DARTs and be up the end anyway

and what other posters want here is for the train to stop in mid platform.

that means the OAP's would have to go back down the platform fairly quickly.

They won't like that now !

oharach

robbie_998 wrote: »

and what other posters want here is for the train to stop in mid platform.

that means the OAP's would have to go back down the platform fairly quickly.

They won't like that now !

No one is saying that.

The DART should always stop closest to the main exit to a station.

Examples:
Connolly, southbound, always at the front of the platform.
Tara Street, southbound, always at the back of the platform.
Pearse, southbound, always at the back of the platform.

In a station where the main exit is half way along the plaform, the mid-point of the train should be at that point. In a station with an exit at either end of equal importance, the train should also stop at the half-way point.

It's a simple matter of ensuring passenger convenience and equal distribution of passengers insofar as possible.

If you want an example of it working well, look at the U- or S-Bahn in Munich.

NuMarvel

I'm sorry, but what's with all the aggro here? The trains have to stop at the top of the platform? No bothers at all. But if that's the case, like the OP suggested, could IE not put an annoucement out that the next DART has x amount of carriages, either over the speaker or on the display, and put markings on the platform to indicate where the carriages will be?

Are people lazy? Perhaps, but most people don't view public transport as a militaristic exercise wherein stategies and tactics need to be drawn up as to where to position themselves (with the obvious exception of the bus of course. There, everything's fair game!). And someone not used to the DART (e.g. the few toursist we're getting this year) will naturally assume that the train will stop next to where the stairs/escalator/lift will bring them. I do the same whenever I'm abroad.

If all trains stop at the stop of the platform, then the markings should be NO problem at all. As for the announcement about the number of carriages, it can't be that much of a problem, can it?

Then again, given the number of DARTS I've gotten on at Grand Canal to be told the next station is one it passed five stations back, perhaps this is a bridge too far?

steamengine

Its a bit like the game of darts, try to guess where on the platform where the dart will land. Apparently the Bullseye is at the outer part of the board, kind of where double top should be and normal scoring somewhere around the middle of the platform. :rolleyes:

dowlingm

There should be a well lit area with a seat and a safety intercom (a Designated Waiting Area) on all platforms and all trains to stop opposite that point over part of its length. End of.

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

And anyway there's never going to be a need to run, unless you walked all the way to the other end of the platform for some reason, even a four car DART is long enough to comfortably walk to in time no matter where you are on the platform.

As for people being stupid and lazy, if you get public transport on a regular basis you see this every day, people waiting until the bus turns up to look for change, everyone piling into the last DART carriage and having to stand even though there are plenty of seat further up, same for upstairs on a bus etc etc etc.

if you are on crutches and get to the last carriage but cant get on because it is packed to bursting with everyone that has had to run from the ends of every platform along the line.....irish rail is not serving its passengers very well but they couldnt care as they all get paid whether trains are full or empty!

robbie_998 wrote: »

elderly are always helped by staff to get to the platform and staff leave them up the platform where there is more space because people are down the back.

i have never seen this happen at dart/suburban rail platforms

robbie_998 wrote: »

and what other posters want here is for the train to stop in mid platform.

that means the OAP's would have to go back down the platform fairly quickly.

They won't like that now !

many trains DO stop mid platform it is really up to the drivers, really though all trains should stop mid platform to facilitate those at either end of the platform

etchyed

robbie_998 wrote: »

Why should Dart or IE spend thousands on installing new mirrors/tv's just so the train can stop before the end ?

For the love of Christ! Nobody posting in this thread wants the trains to stop in the middle of the platform. A simple message on the already existing LEDs would suffice. This would cost precisely nothing to add.

Cookie, this is the third time I will say it to you. There is NO REASON why an inexperienced passenger or a passenger who only usually takes the DART at peak times (8 coaches) would know that they should move towards the end of the platform.

There are also a lot of people who are just not as observant about these things as you or me. That doesn't make them stupid or lazy, it just makes them different. For all you know, they could be a lot more intelligent than you are, and have their mind on other things.

Really and truly, what objection do you have to telling passengers where their train will stop?

murphaph

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There is a line painted on most if not all stations where the lead carriage stops.
There is also a TV screen. If you can't see these and put 2 and 2 together that's your problem. Most people have enough sense and/or experience to know that this means the train will stop there.

If everyone followed your advice, the forward carriages would always be jammed with the rear coaches being half empty! You seem to be the only one here who supports IE's way of doing business, in spite of the fact that every half decent train operator in Europe gives passengers this train specific information over the PIS. Are IE right and every other operator wrong? I think not. In Berlin the (fancy) S Bahn PIS displays give a little diagram of how many cars and where they will be. The U Bahn does not have the capability with their more basic PIS units to do this, so they just say it in plain German (in the example below:"Short train, stops at the rear"):


It's so unbelievably easy for IE to make the lives of it's customers easier: they just don't give a fcuk.

n0brain3r

Having gotten trains in OZ and the US I can say it's pretty standard practice to annouce something like the next Train arriving at platform X to wherever consists of x cars please move to the top of the platfom makes perfect sense IMO . Why anyone is arguing differently is just trolling

kingshankly

a lot of people are missing ou the main point here which I believe is curvature of the platform. if it is straight then there is no reason the driver needs to pull to the top of the platform

foggy_lad

irish rail spent long enough announcing on board trains for passengers to move to the front carriages to disembark due to short platforms so why cant they do the same now for the platforms when the trains are short! it stems i believe from laziness and a lack of any caring attitude towards their own bread and butter passengers and greed as they will most likely want extra bonuses etc for making this extra announcement.

Cookie_Monster

maybe you all want someone to individually help you struggle onto the trains as well :rolleyes:

LOL this really a thread about nothing

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

maybe you all want someone to individually help you struggle onto the trains as well :rolleyes:

LOL this really a thread about nothing

are irish rail staff that lazy they would not make a few seconds of an announcement to make life a lot easier for many of their customers because that is the impression that is being given in this thread!

highlydebased

n0brain3r wrote: »

Having gotten trains in OZ and the US I can say it's pretty standard practice to annouce something like the next Train arriving at platform X to wherever consists of x cars please move to the top of the platfom makes perfect sense IMO . Why anyone is arguing differently is just trolling

This is Ireland and Irish Rail have a policy of not informing passengers what is going on...we're lucky to have LCD displays as it is (When they work :rolleyes:)

Run_to_da_hills

Neon-Circles wrote: »

This is Ireland and Irish Rail have a policy of not informing passengers what is going on...we're lucky to have LCD displays as it is (When they work :rolleyes:)

If CIE won't do anything about it you can be sure Apple will soon come up with some APP that will tell you the next train size on your mobile phone, at a price of course.

NuMarvel

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

maybe you all want someone to individually help you struggle onto the trains as well :rolleyes:

LOL this really a thread about nothing

I really don't understand your opposition to some proper communication from IE. Seriously, what's the problem with IE making things a bit clearer to ALL their passengers by putting a few markings on the platforms and updating the LCD displays? I understand the safety aspect of stopping at the top of the platform, and I think overall it's better for consistency if all trains stopped in the same spot, but there can't possibly be any possible harm with more informative displays and some markings? Can there?

robbie_998

I will say it once again... i have nothing against the idea of putting a simple message on the screen saying "short train... move to front" !

No one is saying that.

The DART should always stop closest to the main exit to a station.

Examples:
Connolly, southbound, always at the front of the platform.
Tara Street, southbound, always at the back of the platform.
Pearse, southbound, always at the back of the platform.

In a station where the main exit is half way along the plaform, the mid-point of the train should be at that point. In a station with an exit at either end of equal importance, the train should also stop at the half-way point.

It's a simple matter of ensuring passenger convenience and equal distribution of passengers insofar as possible.

NO... it involves new lights and tv screens and so on and is a waste of money for something that is not a problem on the DART !

many trains DO stop mid platform it is really up to the drivers, really though all trains should stop mid platform to facilitate those at either end of the platform

up to the driver ? if thats the case then maybe that driver is not doing their job properly !..... it has being standard practice for years for DARTS and IE trains to stop at the end of the platform... why should we change it now after years without problems ?


I actually am starting to see people here become quite lazy.

Run_to_da_hills

robbie_998 wrote: »

II actually am starting to see people here become quite lazy.

You will become "quite lazy" some day when you take out your pension book. :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

NuMarvel wrote: »

I really don't understand your opposition to some proper communication from IE. Seriously, what's the problem with IE making things a bit clearer to ALL their passengers by putting a few markings on the platforms and updating the LCD displays? I understand the safety aspect of stopping at the top of the platform, and I think overall it's better for consistency if all trains stopped in the same spot, but there can't possibly be any possible harm with more informative displays and some markings? Can there?

its a waste of time, effort and money to solve a non existent problem.
I'd rather clean train that turn up on time than a little display telling me to walk to section x platform in case I don't have enough common sense to actually deal with being able to get on a train.

Most other EU countries have such a system because its needed, much higher volume of trains arriving at multi platform stations, even 2-3 trains at different section of each platform. There is or never will be that level of service here so the infrastructure to support it is not needed. Even at the busiest station here it is restricted to one train per platform (apart from the odd splitting 22k at Athlone)

foggy_lad

up to the driver ? if thats the case then maybe that driver is not doing their job properly !..... it has being standard practice for years for DARTS and IE trains to stop at the end of the platform... why should we change it now after years without problems ?

the drivers(there are many of them doing this) that stop midway on the platforms do so to accommodate their passengers and should be commended for this but it will never happen as irish rail would see them disciplined first for helping the public!

etchyed

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its a waste of time, effort and money

It would be a waste of precisely none of those things.

At this stage I have to agree with n0brain3r that by arguing about this you are just trolling and looking for a rise from people. Sadly you've been successful in my case but I won't be responding to this crap again.