HELP - Buyer claiming no phone in box!

Elessar

I really need help here.

I sent an iPhone 3Gs only this wednesday via registered post to a buyer in Germany. They won it on ebay. They have received it but are claiming there is no phone in box just the charger! They sent me a picture of my package with just the iPhone box and charger and have opened a paypal dispute and are demanding a refund.

To say I'm raging is an understatement! I know I sent the phone in the box! What can I do here?

Any advice please?

jetski

have you a postage recipt showing the weight of the item you sent?

Elessar

Yes the receipt has he weight on it.

jetski

Elessar wrote: »

Yes the receipt has he weight on it.

Just send the recipt to paypal as it proves what you sent was heavier than just a box and charger and proves hes lying about somthing, either that or the delivery guy took it.

Elessar

jetski wrote: »

Just send the recipt to paypal as it proves what you sent was heavier than just a box and charger and proves hes lying about somthing, either that or the delivery guy took it.

How would paypal know the weight of just the box and charger?

What I'm thinking of doing is disputing the claim via paypal (obviously) and asking the buyer if there was tampering of the package. From the picture she sent it doesn't look like it (there is a clear view of it).

If she says no, then get paypal involved and email them a scan of the receipt showing the weight. If I can prove that I sent the package with the iPhone in it, as apposed to just a box, then it proves she is lying since there was also no tempering during transit.

The weight on the receipt is 0.432 KG with the iPhone in it. Is that enough on its own to prove to Paypal?

Should I contact the buyer and ask was it tampered? What if she says yes? I can show you the picture, it wasn't tampered with!

Sorry for all the questions I am an honest person and am absolutely fuming! Just need help on the direction to take this.

Abelloid

How is their ebay feedback?

Elessar

Feedback is 100%. 123 feedbacks. Seems OK, but who knows how many disputes she could have opened after the feedbacks were left?

jor el

Before doing anything, ask her to weigh the box and charger using a digital scales, and to post the measured weight on the Paypal dispute. Do not tell her what weight is listed on the receipt. Tell her you can prove what weight it was when you shipped it, and can prove she is lying if she continues with her claim that there was no phone in the box.

Tell her you will want the packaging and charger back to verify her weight measurement too if you suspect she's lying about that.

Sounds to me like she's pulling a fast one. If someone was going to rob it in the post, they wouldn't have delivered anything at all. There would also be obvious signs that it had been opened before delivery, and her claim would be a different one.

bryaner

jor el wrote: »

Before doing anything, ask her to weigh the box and charger using a digital scales, and to post the measured weight on the Paypal dispute. Do not tell her what weight is listed on the receipt. Tell her you can prove what weight it was when you shipped it, and can prove she is lying if she continues with her claim that there was no phone in the box.

Tell her you will want the packaging and charger back to verify her weight measurement too if you suspect she's lying about that.

Sounds to me like she's pulling a fast one. If someone was going to rob it in the post, they wouldn't have delivered anything at all. There would also be obvious signs that it had been opened before delivery, and her claim would be a different one.

Yes and remember Germany is full of Germans

Abelloid

I don't know - if I was stealing from the post I'd still deliver the package.

Abelloid

Elessar wrote: »

Feedback is 100%. 123 feedbacks. Seems OK, but who knows how many disputes she could have opened after the feedbacks were left?

Paypal will know.

Elessar

jor el wrote: »

Before doing anything, ask her to weigh the box and charger using a digital scales, and to post the measured weight on the Paypal dispute. Do not tell her what weight is listed on the receipt. Tell her you can prove what weight it was when you shipped it, and can prove she is lying if she continues with her claim that there was no phone in the box.

Tell her you will want the packaging and charger back to verify her weight measurement too if you suspect she's lying about that.

Sounds to me like she's pulling a fast one. If someone was going to rob it in the post, they wouldn't have delivered anything at all. There would also be obvious signs that it had been opened before delivery, and her claim would be a different one.

Thanks.

If I ask her that she'll simply put the iphone in with the box and weight it that way. I'll ask for a picture of same but somehow I doubt she'll comply...

Will Paypal allow me to request the packaging and charger back before settling the claim?

She's definitely pulling a fast one.

jetski

Elessar wrote: »

How would paypal know the weight of just the box and charger?

What I'm thinking of doing is disputing the claim via paypal (obviously) and asking the buyer if there was tampering of the package. From the picture she sent it doesn't look like it (there is a clear view of it).

If she says no, then get paypal involved and email them a scan of the receipt showing the weight. If I can prove that I sent the package with the iPhone in it, as apposed to just a box, then it proves she is lying since there was also no tempering during transit.

The weight on the receipt is 0.432 KG with the iPhone in it. Is that enough on its own to prove to Paypal?

Should I contact the buyer and ask was it tampered? What if she says yes? I can show you the picture, it wasn't tampered with!

Sorry for all the questions I am an honest person and am absolutely fuming! Just need help on the direction to take this.

Think this is the best idea. dont mention the weight at all first. ask about the tampering of the box and see what she says

Elessar

JustinOval wrote: »

I don't know - if I was stealing from the post I'd still deliver the package.

To open the package I sealed would require either a scissors to cut it or for the top to be very visibly torn open. It doesn't look like that in the picture. I'll post it up now.



This is what she sent me. As you can see, she cut open the bottom but the top sealed part looks fine. If that had been torn open, you would know.

RoadKillTs

You need to be very careful with how you handle this. there is a good chance you are going to get screwed here.

What is your feedback like. Have you sold much?
Good suggestion there from jor el, It will certainly work in you favour.

Unfortunately theses type of scams are becoming more and more common. Buyers are starting to realise how easy it is to scam on eBay.

Sorry OP

If the buyer has a record for starting these type of disputes then that will also go in your favour.

jor el

bryaner wrote: »

Yes and remember Germany is full of Germans

Not sure what that's supposed to mean.

Elessar wrote: »

If I ask her that she'll simply put the iphone in with the box and weight it that way. I'll ask for a picture of same but somehow I doubt she'll comply...

Tell her you already know how much it weighs when the phone is removed.
http://www.apple.com/iphone/iphone-3gs/specs.html
The iPhone weighs 135g, so you know the package she has should weigh 297g. If she says it's heavier than that, you can prove her wrong by weighing an iphone box and charger. You'd need to get one to do that, someone here may be able to help, or bring a scales into your local phone shop and ask if you can weigh one.

subway

should the OP not be thinking of limiting damage here and emptying his paypal account / cancelling credit cards?
i can only see this ending one way tbh.

Elessar

Right I've disputed it and asked her if the package was tampered with. We'll see what she responds with. She'll obviously escalate it to a claim.

jor el: That's the next thing I'll ask her to do.

jor el

subway wrote: »

should the OP not be thinking of limiting damage here and emptying his paypal account / cancelling credit cards?
i can only see this ending one way tbh.

Once a dispute is started, the funds are frozen in the account, unless they've already been removed.

Shzm

subway wrote: »

should the OP not be thinking of limiting damage here and emptying his paypal account / cancelling credit cards?
i can only see this ending one way tbh.

Too late - if the funds were in the account then Paypal would have frozen them.

Abelloid

Did anybody else check the EXIF data on the pic to see if it was taken with a 3GS?

Elessar

I had already transfered the funds to my bank a/c. The balance is in the red now so I presume they can take from my VISA.

Disgusted tbh. I hope paypal give me a fair hearing.

JustinOval wrote: »

Did anybody else check the EXIF data on the pic to see if it was taken with a 3GS?

Just did, taken with a samsung.

Abelloid

How much is the parcel insured for? This might be your only option TBH.

Abelloid

Elessar wrote: »

Just did, taken with a samsung.

Too bad, that would have made my day. :pac:

Dermo

When I head home for lunch I'll weigh my iphone 3gs box and plug without the phone

Elessar

Only insured for €150, that's all they could offer. Phone sold for €320.

Doubt I'll get anywhere with insurance regardless, she has the envelope and I have no evidence.

EDIT: Cheers Dermo.

subway

Elessar wrote: »

I had already transfered the funds to my bank a/c. The balance is in the red now so I presume they can take from my VISA.

i would be on the phone to your bank / visa if i was you.
explain the situation and ask if there is anything they recommend.

banned from paypal, bad feedback on ebay, whatever, this scammer is trying to steal your money so protect yourself.

Elessar

I've been using ebay since 03' and have 100% feedback with 20 positive comments. Not much but I was hoping to hold onto it. The last item I sold was a Nokia N97 in November for the same amount and that went smoothly! So it's not as if this is my first high-value item I've sold.

subway

fair enough, but if you lose, its going to cost you 320eu plus your reputation will be damaged anyway.
at least if your card company can protect you then it wont cost you the 320eu

RoadKillTs

The card company won't do a thing. its down to eBay / Paypal.

subway

however, paypal dont have any of his money.
they will have to charge the card to refund the buyer.

paypal do not have very stringent (imo) fraud checks.
credit card would have stronger fraud protection and likely will have dealt with this before.
they may wish to do their own investigation before releasing funds to paypal.

i think its worth a phone call anyway.

Dermo

The weight without the iphone is 243g
and with iphone is 376g

Just checked on a set of precise digital scales I have here

jor el

Paypal cannot charge the "owed" amount to your card, as you haven't authorised them to charge it. If they do, that would be fraud. What they can do is keep billing you for it, use debt collectors, etc.

You'd have to kiss goodbye to your Paypal and eBay accounts if they close this case against you and you don't want to pay.

They may still close it in your favour though, as you have mounting evidence on your side (which Paypal often completely ignore), so hopefully you'll be OK.

Elessar

Thanks! Is that without the weight of the earplugs, USB cable and plug?

Dermo

Elessar wrote: »

Thanks! Is that without the weight of the earplugs, USB cable and plug?

****, forgot about the earplugs and cable. It included the plug though. Don't have the earplugs anymore anyway

Elessar

Right. She opened a full claim against me. She has replied saying there was no tampering of the package before she got it. So that proves she is lying.

I tried to respond to her to request her to weigh it but it's gone to a claim now and I can't seem to contact her through Paypal...is it in paypals hands now?

I've posted my response to her claim to paypal anyway saying that I have proof the weight of the package and asking them to ask her to weigh it.

Does anyone know if I upload the receipt, will she be able to see it, or only paypal?

EDIT: I cant see an option to upload anything to paypal?

RoadKillTs

Does anyone know if I upload the receipt, will she be able to see it, or only paypal?

Just Paypal I think. Good luck!

Elessar

There's no option to upload any files in the resolution center...any ideas?

Here is my response to paypal:

Dear paypal team,

This buyer purchased an iPhone from me this week for €320. I posted the iPhone with all contents as described in the auction on wedesday 23 July.

The buyer emailed me today saying the box she received was empty and demanded a refund. Shocked, I asked the buyer whether the package was tampered with and she responded that no, it was not.

I can prove that I sent the iPhone in its box and as such prove that the buyer is lying. Upon posting the package (via registered post) the weight was recorded on the receipt. I have the exact weight that the package is with the iPhone inside. I also know the exact weight of the iPhone itself (from www.apple.com) - so I also know the weight the package should be without the phone in it.

I would ask the buyer to weigh the package she received (including packaging materials) and post her results for paypal to see. I can upload a scan of my postage receipt to paypal to prove the weight it was sent at.

I would ask that you request the buyer to send proof of the weight of the package she received. I will show you the weight recorded on the receipt and photographic proof of an iPhone 3GS on a digital scale if requested as further proof the weight is correct.

Since the package was not tampered with according to the buyer, it stands to reason that she is trying to defraud me and is lying to both myself and paypal.

nazoil

To upload stuff:
Log into your paypal account and then replace the x below with the claim number and go there
https://www.paypal.com/ie/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_complaint-files&cid=PP-XXX-XXX-XXX-XXX

Look at Paragraph 11 of this

You MUST have a certificate of posting with the tracking number and shipping address on it and stamped by post office. The receipt with Tracking number is NOT sufficient.

BE FIRM with paypal once you are sure you have satisfied the requirements 100% because they will try anything to get out of it.

Make sure the buyer is made to return the box, contents, packaging to you before a claim is determined.

denisor

I have read this tread and the other on the Apple forumn, I sympathise with the op, its a mess.

So we know your side of the story, all adds up, and we know her side, it to adds up.

Whats missing is any coverage of the shippers role here. When you posted the package did you apply the label in the pic? or did you leave it with your shipper to affix, could they have opened your envelope, removed the phone and put the box back inside a new envelope, and then applied the label? or could they lift the label and reapply it to another envelope?

Ive had 5 replacement 3gs phones from apple this year, and each time the delivary driver knew what was in the pack because of the box size.

Its widely known that the new iphone 4 has been shipped from apple a couple of weeks ago, then sits in fedex for a few days until its delivary on launch day, and that whilst in fedex they have been tampered with and stolen, fedex knows this is happening, and is infact replacing the phones not apple.

So have you satisfied yourself the shipper is not involved?

See here for live reports
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2475318&tstart=0

Elessar

nazoil wrote: »

To upload stuff:
Log into your paypal account and then replace the x below with the claim number and go there
https://www.paypal.com/ie/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_complaint-files&cid=PP-XXX-XXX-XXX-XXX

Look at Paragraph 11 of this

You MUST have a certificate of posting with the tracking number and shipping address on it and stamped by post office. The receipt with Tracking number is NOT sufficient.

BE FIRM with paypal once you are sure you have satisfied the requirements 100% because they will try anything to get out of it.

Make sure the buyer is made to return the box, contents, packaging to you before a claim is determined.

Cheers. I don't have a certificate of posting but that shouldn't matter, she has received the package as stated on the claim?

I'll can't add any more comments in the claim until paypal make a decision but I will try ask for the package back.

Elessar

denisor wrote: »

I have read this tread and the other on the Apple forumn, I sympathise with the op, its a mess.

So we know your side of the story, all adds up, and we know her side, it to adds up.

Whats missing is any coverage of the shippers role here. When you posted the package did you apply the label in the pic? or did you leave it with your shipper to affix, could they have opened your envelope, removed the phone and put the box back inside a new envelope, and then applied the label? or could they lift the label and reapply it to another envelope?

Ive had 5 replacement 3gs phones from apple this year, and each time the delivary driver knew what was in the pack because of the box size.

Its widely known that the new iphone 4 has been shipped from apple a couple of weeks ago, then sits in fedex for a few days until its delivary on launch day, and that whilst in fedex they have been tampered with and stolen, fedex knows this is happening, and is infact replacing the phones not apple.

So have you satisfied yourself the shipper is not involved?

See here for live reports
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2475318&tstart=0

The package was sealed by me with the shipping address written directly onto the envelope (no label) I double sealed the opening of the package with selotape. It's one of those plastic envelopes that requires you to physically tear it open so any tampering would be very obvious. I gave it in to anpost sealed and they just attached the small barcode label. She said herself there is no sign it was opened prior so she is lying through her teeth. I'm surprised myself because with her ebay history she seemed legit. :mad:

denisor

Elessar wrote: »

The package was sealed by me with the shipping address written directly onto the envelope (no label) I double sealed the opening of the package with selotape. It's one of those plastic envelopes that requires you to physically tear it open so any tampering would be very obvious. I gave it in to anpost sealed and they just attached the small barcode label. She said herself there is no sign it was opened prior so she is lying through her teeth. I'm surprised myself because with her ebay history she seemed legit. :mad:

Can you be completely and utterly sure after you left the envolope with your post office that someone could not have recreated the envelope by copyingy your hand written address and carrying over the an post label and cellotape?

Again you have my sympathy and my questions are because I am trying to help, but if your about to post that your 100% sure in your answer above can you tell us why?

Elessar

denisor wrote: »

Can you be completely and utterly sure after you left the envolope with your post office that someone could not have recreated the envelope by copyingy your hand written address and carrying over the an post label and cellotape?

Again you have my sympathy and my questions are because I am trying to help, but if your about to post that your 100% sure in your answer above can you tell us why?

I'm positive, I can clearly see my handwriting on the envelope as I wrote it!

nazoil

Elessar wrote: »

Cheers. I don't have a certificate of posting but that shouldn't matter, she has received the package as stated on the claim?

I'll can't add any more comments in the claim until paypal make a decision but I will try ask for the package back.

For the seller protection claim to be successful you WILL need the Certificate of posting. As I've advised you MUST satisy ALL conditions for seller protection claim to be successful. The post office you sent from should keep a log although the addresses may not be complete, it should have enough information.

I've been through all this. Paypal will wreck your head. Produce the required documentation and insist on them unfreezing your account. Let them deal with the buyer. That's what you've paid a 3.9% commission for them to do.

Bob Z

jor el wrote: »

Sounds to me like she's pulling a fast one. If someone was going to rob it in the post, they wouldn't have delivered anything at all. There would also be obvious signs that it had been opened before delivery, and her claim would be a different one.

I think she is playing a fast one too. But the problem is another common scam is ebay sellers sending emtpy boxes. Ebay wont know who to believe

delllat

9 times outta 10 theyle go with the buyer to keep ebay a "safe pllace to trade "

ive been to hell and back with ebay and paypal and now i dont sell with either of them (x-powerseller with over 10k feedback )

its too heavily weighted in favour of the customer so i will stilll buy but wouldnt sell there

Elessar

Ok I am absolutely livid.

The case is still pending with Paypal, but I just checked my credit card statement there and they have taken the €300 off my card on the back of another transaction I pay monthly!!!

I pay for a usenet server with Astraweb which costs $11 per month. The cheeky f*cksticks at Paypal added on the €300 charge to that transaction this month, so now they have the money!!

I tried to dispute it but whoops "transaction ID not valid"!

To say I am raging is an understatement. How dare they, I did not authorise them to take €300 from me.

Should I just forget paypal at this stage and get onto AIB?

EDIT: Aib said wait until paypal come back with reasons for why I was charged (i.e. outcome of the case). Ugh. I just want my money back.

Grumpypants

Its a strange one she doesnt look like the usual scammer. Was the Iphone at the top of the box (ie could it be under the plastic bit with the plug holder and she didnt pull everything out). And are you 100%sure you put it in the box. silly question but i have done it before when im trading in games ill arrive to the shop and some of the disks wont be in the box even though i just had it in my hand a few mins earlier.

GEasy

JustinOval wrote: »

I don't know - if I was stealing from the post I'd still deliver the package.

HAHA! Genius! lol

Max Power1

Elessar wrote: »

Ok I am absolutely livid.

The case is still pending with Paypal, but I just checked my credit card statement there and they have taken the €300 off my card on the back of another transaction I pay monthly!!!

I pay for a usenet server with Astraweb which costs $11 per month. The cheeky f*cksticks at Paypal added on the €300 charge to that transaction this month, so now they have the money!!

I tried to dispute it but whoops "transaction ID not valid"!

To say I am raging is an understatement. How dare they, I did not authorise them to take €300 from me.

Should I just forget paypal at this stage and get onto AIB?

EDIT: Aib said wait until paypal come back with reasons for why I was charged (i.e. outcome of the case). Ugh. I just want my money back.

I think this is common practice. If you have a claim against you, paypal take the money out of your account temporarily until the claim is resolved - resulting in a temporary negative paypal balance. When your account is negative they will ask you before the next transaction if you wish to pay off the negative balance along with the transaction you are trying to pay, and wont let you make any transaction until you consent (Happened to me recently). They cannot however, take any money unless you authorise it.

Elessar wrote: »

Ugh. I just want my money back.

Wouldnt get my hopes up - the buyer is always favoured in situations like this it seems.