Refuse to send my child to a catholic school

SpaceRocket

Hello,

Wondering if anyone has been in my situation before and can offer advice.

I shall be moving house in a few weeks due to work. My son is four and shall be attending a local montessori untill Sept 2011, when he shall be due to start primary school, aged five.

I have a problem!

I am a staunch athiest/humanist, after being raised in a christian cult, and i refuse to send my child to a catholic school, or any religious school for that matter. This is an issue very important me. Sending him to a catholic school is simply out of the question, i cannot do it.

I have him enrolled for the Educate Together school in the area, however he is number 111 on the list, and the school shall only accept 60 students max.

What do I do???

As far as i see it, I have just one option.

# Wait another year for him to start in the educate together school, which would mean he would be 6 and 3 months starting junior infants.

I don't want him to feel out of place and being up to 2 years older than some of the students in his class would most likely do this!! Or would it?

Surely, in the year 2011, one has the right to send their child to a non religious school????!

Please please please someone help me i am at my tethers end stressing over this, it is keeping me awake at night!

Son of Jack

I can see you feel strongly about this.

Are my sums right? This would mean he would be 13 starting sixth and 14 starting secondary? That would be tough for him I think.

If he was to do a 5 year cycle in secondary would he 19 doing the leaving

Transition year can really suit kids but add that in and he would be 20.

So from a purely practical point of view I'm not sure that is going to work.

Our experience of sending our children to a Catholic school was fine. They really respected that my partner was not of their persuasion.

True there is a need for an alternative for people.

Can you not wait another year and put him directly into senior infants ?
edit: though I guess that would be the numbers problem again, sorry

Is there a gaelscoil, they're non-denom arent they

LordSutch

Is it just Roman Catholic schools you are against, or all Christian schools?

Maybe there is a good Church of Ireland or methodist school nearby?

Just a thought.

gabsdot40

Home schooling?

Hang on in there with the ET school. He might not get a place for JI but maybe for SI. Could you send him to a private Montessori primary school or something until he gets into the school. He probably will eventually.

byhookorbycrook

No such thing as non-denominational schools in Ireland. Some Gaelscoileanna are multi-denom, like the ET schools.

TheColl

SpaceRocket wrote: »

Surely, in the year 2011, one has the right to send their child to a non religious school????!

Of course you do, but they are in the minority. So unless you live somewhere with a few multi-denominational schools then it's always going to prove difficult to get in.

As others have said, home schooling could be your only option if christian schools are a definite non-runner.

There are also VEC national schools starting to pop up, including one opening in Naas in September, and they are described as being "multi-belief".

SpaceRocket

Thanks for the suggestions.

With regards to COI or Methodist schooling, I have searched online and cannot find any in the area, nor can I find any mention of any private primary schools nearby that are not christian.

Perhaps sending him to a COI/methodist school would not hold as much negative emotion for me as sending him to a catholic.

That said, i would rather home school than send him to a school with ANY religious persuasion. Financially though, as a single parent this is not going to be an easy option for me.

I have seen the Prime Time report about the VEC primary school, yes it is a step in the right direction, but the seperation of the children into either muslim/christian/humanist groups for the duration of the religious studies class frightened me a little as it undermines the whole purpose of a school where there is supposed to be no religious bias. Also, there is no VEC school in the area.

I am at a loss as to what i am going to do....

Should i save now, then take next year off to home school him, or untill such a time as a place becomes available in the ET school??

It is going to be a battle for sure. But i am going to fight to the death for my son so that he recieves the secular education that i feel is entitled him.

And yes there is a gael school in the area, it is booked to capacity however.

TheColl

Just want to say that I respect and understand your wish not to send your son to a Catholic school, but are you letting your own personal feelings get in the way of his education?

There are a number of children in most Catholic schools who don't partake in religious studies.

As for these schools having a Christian ethos, while you may not agree with the religious side of things, this ethos is more about having respect for one's self and others etc. etc. etc.

Not looking to pick a fight, just wanted to say this in case it might help you in some way.

Best of luck to you and your son whatever your decision!

#15

TheColl wrote: »

Just want to say that I respect and understand your wish not to send your son to a Catholic school, but are you letting your own personal feelings get in the way of his education?

There are a number of children in most Catholic schools who don't partake in religious studies.

As for these schools having a Christian ethos, while you may not agree with the religious side of things, this ethos is more about having respect for one's self and others etc. etc. etc.

Not looking to pick a fight, just wanted to say this in case it might help you in some way.

Best of luck to you and your son whatever your decision!

It's a matter of principle though.

I'm a non-Catholic teacher, teaching in a catholic school due to lack of options.

And to make things worse, 50%+ of our students are not even catholic. It's one of the most multi-cultural schools in the country, the staff are all paid by the state, yet that same state allows the church to have unwarranted say in the running of the school.

I can not offer any solution for the OP, but I can empathise and sympathise with her position.

All we can really do is campaign for change and vote for parties that support secularisation.

pooch90

Would you not even consider sending him locally and opting out of the religious instruction? I wouldn't go the home school route, it wouldn't aid his socialisation and it may seem easy but there's a reason why teachers have to do a degree. If all else fails keep him in montessori/playschool for another year.

It's a scandal that there's no viable alternative for you but put your son's education first. 95% of catholic schools are loosely catholic and it won't be rammed down his throat. The catholic ethos now, as said above, it about helping the child to become well rounded and respectful not being able to say a Novena

Chuchoter

Sending him in 2 years older than everyone else is a ridiculous idea,if he's 14 in first year, he'll be 20 doing his leaving and 21 going into college. I mean thats insane. Surely just put him in the catholic school and then move him out when a place becomes available in ET, I think you're putting your own beliefs (which I completely understand, I'm also an atheist/humanist) ahead of your sons future education and social life. I would have hated to be 7 in Junior infants/14 in first year.

SpaceRocket

pooch90 i think you took me up wrong, i certainly would not consider it easy to educate my child myself, i said it would NOT be easy, not to mention that it would be a battle financially! Also, as any little boy would tell you, spending all day with mommy is not nearly as exciting as being a big grown up boy in big school! It would be wrong of me i think, to deny him that.

So, home schooling is not really an option. I have thought alot about this and have decided I am going to ring the ET school tomorrow and make an appointment to see the admissions officer. Perhaps if i explain the situation they may be able to help me find a solution that does not involve a religious school, or me taking a year off work to educate him myself.

I may be wrong in saying this; but i find it deeply unfair that someone in my position may find myself having to send my precious son to a school run or in any way affiliated to the very institution that raped me of my childhood and my innocence. It would break my heart.....

Secular education should be an option for all.
How does one go about changing the system???
Is one woman's voice enough?!
I want to make a difference.
Where do i start....?

Sundew

Would you consider a Steiner school if you were near one?

http://www.raheenwood.org/

http://www.kildaresteinerschool.org/
http://www.steinerireland.org/

SpaceRocket

Sundew, they look superb. Have not even heard of them until now. Must do some research on them. Are there any in North Wicklow?

Sundew

Spacerocket: It's a relatively new concept in Ireland.
The first steiner school "Raheen Woods" was opened in Co.Clare in the late 80's and has been a huge success. They had a very long battle with the Dept of Education to be recognized.
A second school has since opened in Clare and afew others I believe are in the pipeline. Seems there is one on the Kildare/Wicklow border but I'm not faniliar with it.
Might be worth contacting this man to find out!
http://steinerireland.org/wicklow/

http://www.freedom-in-education.co.uk/Steiner.htm

I plan to move back west when I have kids so they can go to one. It's just a fantastic alternative to the standard N.S.

SpaceRocket

Thank you so much sundew for making me aware of this. I am going to contact them tomorrow and make enquiries.
Even if there are none near me, i am happy to know that there are some children out there benefitting from what seems like a unique and individualised approach to schooling.
Looks very homely.
My son loves nature and the outdoors so he would fit right in!
Fingers crossed there is a plan of action to set one up in Wicklow.

Sundew

It's worth looking into if you happen to have a Steiner school nearby.
We had a huge influx of people moving to Clare in the 90's becuase they actually wanted to send their children to that school. That's how strong they felt about that method of education.

I don't understand the hangup about age either. In Sweden and some other European countries,children don't start school until they are 6!

Some of the comments on this BBC article may interest you.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7234578.stm

I like the comment from Paul who says: "A child is a fire to be lit not a vessel to be filled" Food for thought!

Good Luck with everything and whatever you choose! :-)

byhookorbycrook

From the FAQ:

Are Steiner Waldorf schools religious?

In the sense of subscribing to the beliefs of a particular religious denomination or sect, no. Steiner Waldorf schools, however, tend to be spiritually oriented and are based out of a generally Christian perspective. The historic festivals of Christianity, and of other major religions as well, are observed in the class rooms and in school assemblies. Classes in religious doctrine are not part of the Steiner Waldorf curriculum, and children of all religious backgrounds attend Steiner Waldorf schools. Spiritual guidance is aimed at awakening the child's natural reverence for the wonder and beauty of life.

TheColl

Sundew wrote: »

I don't understand the hangup about age either. In Sweden and some other European countries,children don't start school until they are 6!

The point about age is that he would be older than his classmates throughout his entire school life. This could pose issues as time goes on. I know of a child who is in 6th class and is 14 and it is not easy for him being older and more developed, physically and mentally, than his classmates.

happydayz8

I totally agree that education should in no way be linked to religion. My son will also start school in 2011 and with a lot of frustration I've now backed down and he will be going to a catholic school. I'm not Irish and my whole education has been based on no religion. I thought the age of enlightenment would have gotten rid of the link between religions and education. I do however feel we have to fit in and sending him to a catholic school is better then not sending him. If there is an organisation that is fighting for the right of non-religious education - I'm interested!

huskerdu

pooch90 wrote: »

Would you not even consider sending him locally and opting out of the religious instruction? I wouldn't go the home school route, it wouldn't aid his socialisation and it may seem easy but there's a reason why teachers have to do a degree. If all else fails keep him in montessori/playschool for another year.

It's a scandal that there's no viable alternative for you but put your son's education first. 95% of catholic schools are loosely catholic and it won't be rammed down his throat. The catholic ethos now, as said above, it about helping the child to become well rounded and respectful not being able to say a Novena

I know that you think this is true, but you really, really dont understand the problem. I am an athiest whose children go to a Catholic school. I am not very happy about this but have compromised.

The religion syllabus for Catholics school is quite good in some ways where it emphasises good morals and ethics, but religion IS ramped down the throat of the pupils. Its everywhere, all the time. Religion is taught for 2.5 hours a week. It is not possible to opt out of religion classes, as schools do not have a spare teacher sitting around able to do supervision.
Non-catholics sit at their desks and do colouring in, excluded from the class for 2.5 hours every week.

There are also regular prayer services for start of years, masses, Christmas religious ceremonies.

For the weeks and months running up to communion, the class do communion preparation for hours every day. My daughter got through an impressive amount of books, while sitting at the back of the church during the rehearsals.

Its really really hard to be a non-Catholic in Ireland. A lot of the comments
in reply show that people seem to think "sure what harm can it do" and think it is odd to want to educate your children is line with your own ethical beliefs.

I have a lot of sympathy with the OP, but sadly no answers.

annainez

OP, I'm 17 and previously went to COI Primary Schools, but was brought up in an atheist family. I attended church with the school on occasions where it did not suit my mother to look after me for the duration of the service but I was not bothered by being there. The schools did not force religion onto us, we never had to say prayers and religious studies were a rare occurrence, in both schools.

Our family moved home eight years ago and the closest school is Catholic. It is literally a two minute walk up the street. My brother (who is now nine) was the first non-Catholic to attend the small country school, and he could not be happier now. He calls himself a non-believer (after hearing both the views of our family and those of his Catholic friends and teachers) and all his friends made their first communion while he did not. This was no problem at all. He and my sister choose not to say the prayers and bless themselves, just as I would choose.
The advantage of going to the local school is that all friends are local, whereas mine we're scattered all over the place as COI people were eager to send their kids to a COI school, and some came from over half an hour drive away.
Also, Catholic schools (from my experience) are very well funded and have many extra-curricular activities, which really benefits the kids.

On the other hand, I went to a multi-denom Community Secondary school, and yet our Graduation ceremony was a Mass. All of the 'wishing you well for your exams' talks and what not were religious services. Educate Together seem to be the only group that are genuinely multi denom. And if that is not a possibility, you do have to think of what is best for your child.

I know you feel very strongly about this but perhaps the Catholic school would not be as bad as you expect.

xxsunshinexx

I went to a secondary school where there were several pupils from one of the Steiner schools. The joined secondary school in 2nd year as the Steiner School continued until then. Yes they may have been a few months to a year older, however I think it didn't matter at all. In secondary school there is a larger age group in each year, due to people having repeated years at primary level. I think you should definitely consider Steiner school if possible. Anyone I know who attended it loved it!

Truley

+ 1 million on the Steiner schools they are absolutely fantastic. I wouldn't worry about the delayed reading, any child I have known to come from a Steiner school have been miles above average in reading. You will find too that by age six children are more likely to have an active interest in reading and learning to read and consequently pick it up alot quicker than if they start at four. Ireland and the UK are actually unusual in how they start reading so much earlier than other countries.

They spend the early years with a stong focus on physical activity (alot of time spent outdoors), and creative subjects such as music, art and crafts. Their buildings are beautiful too, with all natural toys and materials. No branded posters or garish colours.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

From the FAQ:

Are Steiner Waldorf schools religious?

In the sense of subscribing to the beliefs of a particular religious denomination or sect, no. Steiner Waldorf schools, however, tend to be spiritually oriented and are based out of a generally Christian perspective. The historic festivals of Christianity, and of other major religions as well, are observed in the class rooms and in school assemblies. Classes in religious doctrine are not part of the Steiner Waldorf curriculum, and children of all religious backgrounds attend Steiner Waldorf schools. Spiritual guidance is aimed at awakening the child's natural reverence for the wonder and beauty of life.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the religious aspect of Waldorf schools. As is says, they don't have formal religious classes beyond what is taught in history. They do place a heavy emphasis on celebrating festivals, which may have a religious origin. For example May Day, St Johns, Christmas and Easter. Also may learn religious songs in Music class. I think what they say above is their way of covering their asses over it :P

There is a well - established Waldorf school in Kildare and a new Waldorf school starting up in Kilkenny this September 2010. Also another intitative to have a school in Dublin city for 2011 check out http://www.saoirsewaldorf.com/

Hope this helps!

SpaceRocket

OP here - The little one was offered a place at the local Educate together school a couple weeks ago. I am shocked, delighted, and over the moon!!

D4RK ONION

SpaceRocket wrote: »

OP here - The little one was offered a place at the local Educate together school a couple weeks ago. I am shocked, delighted, and over the moon!!

Glad to hear your child will be raised in a ethos you agree with. Many parents are not so lucky.

overmantle

Delighted to hear that your child received the offer you were hoping for. Best of luck to you both. This is clearly what you wanted. I'm sure you know the school involved and this is the right decision for you and your child.

I would say that while this was clearly the type of school you wanted, for your own reasons, the actual school itself, rather than whether it is denominational, non-denominational, multi-denominational, English speaking primary school, Gaelscoil, mixed, single-sex or whatever, is the most important thing in many cases, for many people.

This has been debated before but I'm just cautioning others against focusing solely on the 'type' of school rather than also focusing on the actual school itself. My sister was most interested in a school for her 4 year old son that has an excellent reputation, is inclusive, has great resources and excellent teachers. It is a very progressive school. It just so happens that the school happens to be a Catholic school but to be honest, that is not a consideration for her. She is currently waiting and hoping to get a place in the school but is on a waiting list. She has the option of an ET school in her area but it is a school with which many of her friends are not happy. I'm only giving this side of the story as it shows that the 'actual' school itself is often more important to many, rather than just the 'type' of school. In my opinion, both need to be considered, not just one.

Once again, I'm not making this point for the OP as I'm delighted that she is happy in her case and it is something that for her own reasons, she could not contemplate a religious school. I am making this point for the benefit of others. Hope that helps.:)

mumof2

Another good ending - I was interested in the Steiner schools, so followed this story. Glad it worked out for OP. Good luck in September.

jd

Steiner schools?
Another view point
http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3528

#15

Great news OP. Hopefully with the new govt we will begin to make tentative steps towards reform of the patronage of the educational system and end the dominance of the church in educational life.

It's not right that ordinary people like yourself suffer unnecessary stress in seeking a basic human right for your child.

Best of luck!!

huskerdu

huskerdu wrote: »

Its really really hard to be a non-Catholic in Ireland.

Is it really, though?

bigbrotherfan

huskerdu wrote: »

I know that you think this is true, but you really, really dont understand the problem. I am an athiest whose children go to a Catholic school. I am not very happy about this but have compromised.

The religion syllabus for Catholics school is quite good in some ways where it emphasises good morals and ethics, but religion IS ramped down the throat of the pupils. Its everywhere, all the time. Religion is taught for 2.5 hours a week. It is not possible to opt out of religion classes, as schools do not have a spare teacher sitting around able to do supervision.
Non-catholics sit at their desks and do colouring in, excluded from the class for 2.5 hours every week.

There are also regular prayer services for start of years, masses, Christmas religious ceremonies.

For the weeks and months running up to communion, the class do communion preparation for hours every day. My daughter got through an impressive amount of books, while sitting at the back of the church during the rehearsals.

Its really really hard to be a non-Catholic in Ireland. A lot of the comments
in reply show that people seem to think "sure what harm can it do" and think it is odd to want to educate your children is line with your own ethical beliefs.

I have a lot of sympathy with the OP, but sadly no answers.

I am not a Catholic and I definitely don't find it hard to live in Ireland. I believe that it is as hard as one chooses or wants it to be. I chose a school for my child that is a very good school. It happens to be a Catholic school but that doesn't bother me or my son and it's a non-issue. There are loads of children of different religions (and plenty of atheists too) in the school and it's totally relaxed. There are so many things that are good about the school and religion isn't a big deal. As I said, it's as big a deal as you choose to make it and I don't see what the big deal is. There are far more things that I have to worry about like mortgages, banks, bankers, developers, planners etc. (none of which have anything to do with being Catholic, Church of Ireland, Atheism or whatever). Everybody is different but that is my take on it.

scifi77

My niece went to her local ET school and for her it was a disaster. Luckily my sister and her partner got her into their other local school which happens to be a Catholic school. Its absolutely no big deal and she is in 3rd class now. She is loving it. I understand that some have big problems around religion, perhaps something to do with their own past or an experience they had themselves when they were in school many years ago. For many people I know, most of whom wouldn't be posting here, they simply don't see it as a big deal.

bigbrotherfan

bigbrotherfan wrote: »

I am not a Catholic and I definitely don't find it hard to live in Ireland. I believe that it is as hard as one chooses or wants it to be.

Likewise. My son went to an ET primary school, and since he was born I have never (and I mean never) encountered any difficulties whatsoever because of his non-Catholicism or mine. The last time I can recall having anything that I could describe as a difficulty because of my atheism was over 20 years ago - and that was an issue with someone's personal attitudes rather than a practical problem.

Daniel S

Theres loads of people who aren't catholic in my school. I'm one. In all honesty, our religion teachers are a joke.

Prisoner6409

SpaceRocket wrote: »

Hello,

Wondering if anyone has been in my situation before and can offer advice.

I shall be moving house in a few weeks due to work. My son is four and shall be attending a local montessori untill Sept 2011, when he shall be due to start primary school, aged five.

I have a problem!

I am a staunch athiest/humanist, after being raised in a christian cult, and i refuse to send my child to a catholic school, or any religious school for that matter. This is an issue very important me. Sending him to a catholic school is simply out of the question, i cannot do it.

I have him enrolled for the Educate Together school in the area, however he is number 111 on the list, and the school shall only accept 60 students max.

What do I do???

As far as i see it, I have just one option.

# Wait another year for him to start in the educate together school, which would mean he would be 6 and 3 months starting junior infants.

I don't want him to feel out of place and being up to 2 years older than some of the students in his class would most likely do this!! Or would it?

Surely, in the year 2011, one has the right to send their child to a non religious school????!

Please please please someone help me i am at my tethers end stressing over this, it is keeping me awake at night!

Of course you have, just don't expect the taxpayer to build a new non-denominational school next door to where you choose to live. An awfull lot of parents are having trouble getting their children into a school never mind a school of their choice. My kids go to the local catholic school but even that school has plenty of muslim kids attending and it seems to me if they can balance this surely you can. Priorities mate, education First would be my instinct, it's not like they brainwash the kids, plenty of us who went to catholic school ended up choosing a different path when the time came.

scifi77

Prisoner6409 wrote: »

Of course you have, just don't expect the taxpayer to build a new non-denominational school next door to where you choose to live. An awfull lot of parents are having trouble getting their children into a school never mind a school of their choice. My kids go to the local catholic school but even that school has plenty of muslim kids attending and it seems to me if they can balance this surely you can. Priorities mate, education First would be my instinct, it's not like they brainwash the kids, plenty of us who went to catholic school ended up choosing a different path when the time came.

Prisoner6409, while I may not have been quite so blunt, I have to agree with what you have said here. Being honest, the silent majority often don't articulate their feelings and those who are vocal are the ones who often appear to reflect the reality on the ground. I'm not saying the OP doesn't have reason to feel as s/he does but the system is as it is at the moment and people can't expect to have new schools opened or existing (excellent) schools disbanded overnight.

A friend of mine went to live in the middle east recently and felt that her kids were treated very much as second class citizens by the schools out there. She was turned away from most schools as schools out there are not at all as inclusive as schools in Ireland. There is a hugely strong religious influence in schools out there that my friend is frightened by. She is a lapsed Catholic and her kids went to a Catholic school here. She is returning to Ireland in the autumn and has said that in Ireland, we don't realise how lucky we are to have schools that are so inclusive.

Fozzydog3

I went to a catholic school that was something just short of angelas ashes

but as a protestant they were very understanding i wouldnt worry about it OP

mumof2

jd wrote: »

Steiner schools?
Another view point
http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3528

The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence!!

Thanks for that, very interesting reading...... great stuff.

D4RK ONION

I think this thread has run it's course. Thanks to all who helped the OP out with their question.

Thread Closed