Households struggling to pay bills

caseyann

Nonetheless, while Irish citizens were seen to be downbeat about the jobs market, the percentage of households who feel pessimistic about their future has dropped.
The study showed there had been a decline from 48 per cent to 25 per cent of households who have a negative view of their financial future over the next 6 months.:rolleyes:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0622/breaking33.html

I can honestly say they didnt survey my house nor anyone i know :rolleyes:

Do you find their survey is accurate for you and your feeling on your security and future.

I'm single with no kids, if I had kids I'd be very worried.

RichardAnd

I'm a very pessimistic person by nature and whilst I want to believe that I will have a stable financial future, I never plan for it. I'm not struggling right now as I live very simply with 70% of my wages going straight into savings.

However, I agree with the above poster in that if I had children, I would be doubly concerned about tomorrow. The fact that I don't know if I will have a job in 5 years time means that having children for me is a risk I am unwilling to take. Better just look out for one than many.

70% of your wages saved :eek:
Well done man

danbohan

caseyann wrote: »

Nonetheless, while Irish citizens were seen to be downbeat about the jobs market, the percentage of households who feel pessimistic about their future has dropped.
The study showed there had been a decline from 48 per cent to 25 per cent of households who have a negative view of their financial future over the next 6 months.:rolleyes:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0622/breaking33.html

I can honestly say they didnt survey my house nor anyone i know :rolleyes:

Do you find their survey is accurate for you and your feeling on your security and future.

suns shining , its a good time to get positive response in a survey , try it again in November

RichardAnd

RoverJames wrote: »

70% of your wages saved :eek:
Well done man

Thanks But it's only down to the fact that I've no mortgage, no car loan, no wife/gf, no kids and nothing much else of what other people call a life

maybe I'm just boring :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

RichardAnd wrote: »

with 70% of my wages going straight into savings.

I hope not into an Irish bank ...

well done tho

jimmycrackcorm

RichardAnd wrote: »

Thanks But it's only down to the fact that I've no mortgage, no car loan, no wife/gf, no kids and nothing much else of what other people call a life :

I'd come to the same conclusion about your before I even read that post.

_michelle_

while i can understand how bills can add up very quickly if you start missing the odd payment here or there if you do the sensible thing like putting 20 or 30 each week off electricity/gas/sky/tv stamp you can avoid owing hugh amounts. all it takes is careful planning. i have recently started shopping in aldi and i am shocked at how much i am able to save and the quality of food is good if sometimes not better than the likes of supervalu/dinnes/tesco.

RichardAnd

RichardAnd wrote: »

Thanks But it's only down to the fact that I've no mortgage, no car loan, no wife/gf, no kids and nothing much else of what other people call a life

maybe I'm just boring :rolleyes:

Ah no, I'm sure with hindsight many folk would aspire to staying footloose and fancy free

thebman

Its very easy to live debt free and save a large portion of your income TBH.

I go out two or three times a week and still save a large portion of my income as well as having a pension fund.

How?

I live in modest accomodation with a modest car. I have everything I want at this stage. Reliable car, every games console, guitar, job close to where I live that I like and equipment for the sports I like.

I don't have kids/gf either. It seems thats the secret to being debt free in Ireland :P

RichardAnd

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I hope not into an Irish bank ...

well done tho

Well actually it's not in a bank at all, it's in the post office. I keep a small amount with AIB at all times though.

Anyone can save that amount of money though without too much trouble providing they are single and not a parent. Children eat up a wage package terribly and courtship costs a lot too with dates and gifts. Also, having no wife nor children is a type of economic security as if I loose my job, I have only to worry about myself.

Perhaps my outlook will change but I have friends who are parents and right now, I do not in the least envy their position.

Scofflaw

caseyann wrote: »

Nonetheless, while Irish citizens were seen to be downbeat about the jobs market, the percentage of households who feel pessimistic about their future has dropped.
The study showed there had been a decline from 48 per cent to 25 per cent of households who have a negative view of their financial future over the next 6 months.:rolleyes:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0622/breaking33.html

I can honestly say they didnt survey my house nor anyone i know :rolleyes:

Do you find their survey is accurate for you and your feeling on your security and future.

For those that like that kind of thing, the survey itself is here. Presumably the focus on poverty is part of the "European Year for combating poverty and social exclusion".

cordially,
Scofflaw

dan_d

Courtship? Excellent word!

Personally with a mortgage and another half (but we don't spend money on each other anymore coz we've been together quite a while now!!!!:P), I manage to put a bit away every month too. And I could put more away if I wanted to. I think it's kids that are the major black hole for money!
Having said that they didn't survey my house either...

Sponge Bob

Kids in an area where you have no family is the black hole. The cost of running a kid in Dublin is €900 a month per kid for the creche/montessori ( that is after tax) + feeding and clothing and bribing them when you do have them.

You could choose to run 2 kids or run a his and hers BMW

The_Honeybadger

RichardAnd wrote: »

Well actually it's not in a bank at all, it's in the post office. I keep a small amount with AIB at all times though.

Anyone can save that amount of money though without too much trouble providing they are single and not a parent. Children eat up a wage package terribly and courtship costs a lot too with dates and gifts. Also, having no wife nor children is a type of economic security as if I loose my job, I have only to worry about myself.

Perhaps my outlook will change but I have friends who are parents and right now, I do not in the least envy their position.

I used to save alot of my income, not 70%, but probably at least 50%+. Even with kids I still manage to save a good portion of my income, it just takes planning and discipline. For example I never go into debt, if I don't have the price of something I do without, I saved up for my car rather than get loan etc. Not very difficult but there are those who need to keep up with the jones, and wouldn't be seen driving a second hand car, and need their annual shopping venture to New York etc, good luck to them.

dan_d

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Kids in an area where you have no family is the black hole. The cost of running a kid in Dublin is €900 a month per kid for the creche/montessori ( that is after tax) + feeding and clothing and bribing them when you do have them.

You could choose to run 2 kids or run a his and hers BMW

It'll have to be the kids so.....we're not the BMW type at all!:D
Phew, at least that decision is made!

dudara

I've gone the alternate route - BMW over kids

Joking aside, that survey doesn't seem to reflect reality to me. I think things are horribly tight out there for couples with kids, mortgages, car loans etc.

As a previous poster said, the key is to live modestly. Only expand upwards when you can actually afford it (not financing it with credit). Too many households forgot this during the good years and are paying the price now.

Kids are an expensive lifestyle choice and if you want to have children, you may have to sacrifice some other stuff.

Sleepy

I have the kids but thankfully no mortgage. It's not financially viable for my girlfriend to work - the childcare would cost more than she could possibly take home so for now, we're the (seemingly unusual in modern day Ireland) single-income nuclear family.

I have some small debts from college and excessive living during my single days in the boom but luckily I have an ok job and those debts are coming down month by month. If I'd taken a mortgage when they were being offered to me I'd almost certainly be in negative equity on a two bed apartment by now which would be a lot of fun with a young family!

We live fairly modestly renting a 3 bed terraced house in a nice area, get a night out once a month each (no family available to babysit so we go out separately), a take-away once a week, I drive a 12 year old car, we took a budget holiday to Portugal that I got for half the price of the last minute deals by booking Ryanair and late deal accomodation, clothes tend to be from Penneys/Dunnes or on-line rather than designer labels and there's certainly no 40" plasma in the sitting room (an old 32" CRT I got from a mate when he traded up!).

For someone who grew up with the boom (did my LC in 98, left college with a post-grad in 03), it's hard to accept such a 'boring' lifestyle as being the norm. In the early years of my working life I was skiing for my 'winter holiday' and seeing lots of Europe over the summers, dropping around €200 on booze every weekend and generally throwing my money away whilst having a great time. Luckily for me, I never bought property as I couldn't see the value in a 300k shoe-box so even though I've a bit of a hangover from the boom years, it's not too serious a one.

My biggest worry financially at the moment is that the housing market may return to a bubble instead of continuing to normalise. It'll be 2 years before I'll have my debts cleared and a deposit saved so if that happens, I'll be shut out of the market until it crashes again...

dan_d

I remember someone last year on the radio bemoaning the plight of the poor private school teenagers who were withdrawn and sent to an ordinary public secondary school because the parents could no longer afford to pay the fees, which they had been paying on credit all along to keep up appearances.

We really lost the run of ourselves. (I don't include myself in that "we" or those of us who saw the whole mess for what it was). Saving was practically advocated as a crime. It never ceases to amaze me that people buy so easily into mass hysteria like that.

On the subject of that survey however, I am shortly leaving my job for the dole queue so would fit into the "pessimistic about my future" bracket although I've money saved and will hopefully receive some sort of payment.As with anything however, surveys should be taken in context.

The_Honeybadger

Sleepy wrote: »

My biggest worry financially at the moment is that the housing market may return to a bubble instead of continuing to normalise. It'll be 2 years before I'll have my debts cleared and a deposit saved so if that happens, I'll be shut out of the market until it crashes again...

I would hope our new tougher laws with regard to bank lending will not allow this to happen. That said, if AIB and BOI started offering 110% mortgages in the morning, I'm sure they'd have plenty of gullible takers. I was recently chatting to my future sister in law, she is out of college a couple of years and has a safe job in the PS. She can't wait to get on the property ladder, and was refused a mortgage last year because she didn't have a deposit, so she moved back home with her parents, and she tells me that the minute she has enough she'll be buying before prices rebound . She then quizzed me as to why I hadn't bought yet (she knows I have a large amount of savings), I explained that houses are still madly overvalued even after falling as much as they have. She completely disagreed with me, as did her father (who seems to be advising her and pushing her into buying). I also have alot of friends and peers, who have very little grasp of economics, who see this recession as a blip, before we get back to "normal". I have tried in vain to explain that the boom was anything but normal, but it's not what alot of people want to hear I'm afraid, and like sheep many people will jump on the back of the next bubble, whatever that may be.

Sleepy

That's pretty much what I'm afraid of mickeyk. Getting 8% of the price of a house together isn't an insurmountable task for anyone with a stable job in the current climate (especially those with parental support for either the deposit itself or accomodation whilst saving it). I think people like your future sister in law are going to bring about a rebound in prices before sane levels are reached.

The_Honeybadger

Many potential first time buyers are not secure enough in their jobs to take out mortgages (I am in this situation myself), and mortgages will be more difficul to obtain from now on, so fingers crossed house prices will reflect reality in future. That said I see where you are coming from, alot of people will not learn anything from the recession and could well repeat old mistakes, as the case of my sis in law shows.

twofoot6

I feel pessimistic about my future despite myself and my partner having jobs. We bought four years ago and bought a house for half a million. Worst thing we could have ever done and now I feel very stupid. At the time we thought we were going to be priced out of the market and would soon be unable to afford a house and didn't want to buy an apartment cos we wanted to start a family. Both my partner and I went to college. I put myself through five years of college, the only financial help I got was a Dublin City Council grant. I got no help from my parents and paid my rent and bills with my part-time job. Both my partner and I saved hard for a deposit. I feel really depressed about the whole thing cos we are living in an area that doesn't suit us and we have no hope of moving to a better area now. My next door neighbours drive a boy racer car with a really loud annoying car alarm. they have visitors calling every five minutes who feel the need to beep their car horns on arrival and when and when leaving. These neighbours are renting and they don't work and there house is much bigger than ours. I went to college to better myself and now I see I was wasting my time. I envy people who are still renting and wish I had continued renting. I have to carry this ridiculous mortgage for the next thirty years.

George Orwell 1982

twofoot6 wrote: »

I feel pessimistic about my future despite myself and my partner having jobs. We bought four years ago and bought a house for half a million. Worst thing we could have ever done and now I feel very stupid.....

Brendan O'Connor wrote a good article about people in your situation: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/rescuing-homeowners-has-to-be-the-priority-2228031.html

Sleepy

twofoot6 wrote: »

I feel pessimistic about my future despite myself and my partner having jobs. We bought four years ago and bought a house for half a million. Worst thing we could have ever done and now I feel very stupid. At the time we thought we were going to be priced out of the market and would soon be unable to afford a house and didn't want to buy an apartment cos we wanted to start a family. Both my partner and I went to college. I put myself through five years of college, the only financial help I got was a Dublin City Council grant. I got no help from my parents and paid my rent and bills with my part-time job. Both my partner and I saved hard for a deposit. I feel really depressed about the whole thing cos we are living in an area that doesn't suit us and we have no hope of moving to a better area now. My next door neighbours drive a boy racer car with a really loud annoying car alarm. they have visitors calling every five minutes who feel the need to beep their car horns on arrival and when and when leaving. These neighbours are renting and they don't work and there house is much bigger than ours. I went to college to better myself and now I see I was wasting my time. I envy people who are still renting and wish I had continued renting. I have to carry this ridiculous mortgage for the next thirty years.

twofoot6, it seems pretty likely that those in negative equity will be able to apply for mortgages where they can carry the negative equity over to the new house pretty soon so you may well be able to move to a more suitable location. The money's lost and is the price you've paid for a harsh lesson in not believing things people with vested interests tell you and buying in a bubble. At the end of the day though, you're both still working and can pay the mortgage, you should be able to move to another location should you want to pretty soon and still continue to pay the mortgage.

The house was worth the mortgage payments to you when you bought it. What's the difference now? It's not appreciating in value? Well, tough on that score. It's still a home for yourself and your partner though and it's not costing you any more than it did 5 years ago... it just hasn't made you money and, not trying to be harsh but, if you were buying it as an investment with the expectation that it would increase in value, you really should have done your homework.

In the shorter term: have you complained to your next door neighbour's landlord? Visitors calling for 5 minute intervals at all times of the day would be enough for me to be suspect some level of dealing being carried out there. Maybe a call to the Gardai's confidential number might persuade them to act in a more civilised manner (or be arrested and detained if the suspicions were founded).

You got taken for a sucker and over-paid for your house. Dust yourself down, learn the lesson and move forward. Luckily for you, you're far from the only one to do this in Ireland over the past 6 years so mechanisms will eventually come on-stream to facilitate you with an ability to move house.

Sleepy

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

Brendan O'Connor wrote a good article about people in your situation: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/rescuing-homeowners-has-to-be-the-priority-2228031.html

Brendan O' Connor hasn't written a good article in his life and the one you've linked to is no exception.

anneboleyn

wonder how many Top bank execs are having these kind of worries. ? and I don't mean the local AIB bank manager

ei.sdraob

Sleepy wrote: »

Brendan O' Connor hasn't written a good article in his life and the one you've linked to is no exception.

Its likes of Brendan in the media that are responsible for the mess @twofoot6 is in

great guy too quote, not

fedor.2

Christ, anybody got a noose? what are ye like? A cure for depression ye aint.

twofoot6

We never bought the house as an investment to make us money. We bought because we were sick of renting with other people. At the time rents were very expensive but now they have gone way down. We thought at the time house prices were going to stabilise but we never imagined the value of the house would drop by over 200,000. The advise we got from those older than us was that the first few years are the hardest and as your wages increase the mortgage payments get easier. However, we have both had wage cuts.

I suppose the reality of being stuck in a neighbourhood where we have nothing in common with the neighbours has hit me.

Btw, carrying negative equity from one house to another will not work unless they do something about the stamp duty, unless of course you are buying a new house. We got stung for €30,000 stamp duty when we bought our house. The following year they did away with stamp duty for first time buyers! No-one in negative equity is going to pay stamp duty.

I know I am very lucky I have a job and I know there are a lot worse off but I just need to vent cos I am driving myself mad thinking about it.

George Orwell 1982

Sleepy wrote: »

Brendan O' Connor hasn't written a good article in his life and the one you've linked to is no exception.

Normally I would agree, but I thought this article was quite a good opinion piece, as opinion pieces go.

twofoot6

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

Brendan O'Connor wrote a good article about people in your situation: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/rescuing-homeowners-has-to-be-the-priority-2228031.html

I don't normally like Brendan O'Connor but this article summed up exactly how I'm feeling.

dan_d

"Anglo has got the money, it continues to get it, and basically anyone who suggests that it shouldn't is browbeaten and told they don't understand economics.

And finally there is the notion that it would be very difficult and complicated to come up with a mechanism for helping people in negative equity -- and that really we just don't understand economics. This is made a lie by the fact that they can always think of complex ways, that we don't understand, of bailing everyone else out.

Those finance guys are clever guys, and if anything tricky needs to be done to bail out their asses, they seem to be able to work it out. So I'm sure with a bit of encouragement they could figure out how to apply a non-recourse situation to existing needy cases."

Those 3 things from that article strike me.

Firstly because we're now doing exactly what we spent the last 10 years doing in reverse. Buy a house, everything's fine, we can't possibly change the budget to restrict spending we've gone so far, it's complicated, you won't understand. Now it's we can't help you out, it's complicated, you won't understand. Shout down the people who are actually trying to introduce a bit of sense into the whole thing and ridicule them. Don't we ever learn?

And secondly, people always find a way to make things work. I have no doubt that there are solutions out there to our current problems. Not necessarily good ones, not solutions that would ever have to be considered under normal circumstances. But there are ways and means around everything, and we've apparently got a whole raft of bankers who excel at finding those ways and means. There is no doubt they could come up with a method of helping people. But then the ordinary people of Ireland don't have millions in the bank and developments everywhere, so we don't "qualify" for help.

I'm not a fan of the Sunday Indo or Brendan O'Connor but I think in this case I'm making an exception. His article hits the nail on the head, particularly when you realise you are one of the ordinary, hard working middle class.

So why aren't we on the streets again?? Of all the people out there, we've been the hardest hit, have the most reason to complain because we're being screwed left right and centre....and we confine our complaining to an internet forum (I'm including myself in this).

20Cent

twofoot6 wrote: »

I don't normally like Brendan O'Connor but this article summed up exactly how I'm feeling.

The Indo campaigned to get Stamp duty removed for first time buyers. This looks like another campaign might work again!

Sleepy

dan_d - I'd suggest it's because, at the end of the day, no matter how much Irish society was encouraging people to over-pay for houses, the decision to take out the mortgage was still made by the individuals who took them out.

That moral hazard has largely been ignored when propping up the financial institutions (which, Anglo aside, nobody is really arguing should have been let collapse given the consequences we could have expected from doing so) is not an argument to ignore it's consequences in terms of dealing with average Joe taxpayer.

The 'negative equity' mortgages being discussed in another thread are on the way - wouldn't you consider this to be a means of helping individuals in twofoot6's position? It affords them the freedom to relocate to a home more suitable for their current work/family situation and, tbh, if you paid 500k for a house three years ago, that house should still be worth 500k to you. If it's not, I'm sorry but you can't expect society at large to pay for your buyers remorse.

North_West_Art

yes but very many individuals who took out mortgages, did so on the word of people who claimed to be experts in the field of property; sales-people who claimed that property was the best investment.. people who made it as easy as possible for anyone to get a mortgage.

This was all fully sanctioned by a government who reaped the tax benefits of the property boom.

All this was aided and abetted by the papers, whos biggest funders were Sherry Fitzgerald, Gunne, Remax, who were given free reign to print whatever they wanted, and it was swallowed hook, line and sinker.

It surely must be the single biggest act of fraud in the history of this country.

mathie

North_West_Art wrote: »

yes but very many individuals who took out mortgages, did so on the word of people who claimed to be experts in the field of property; sales-people who claimed that property was the best investment.. people who made it as easy as possible for anyone to get a mortgage.

This was all fully sanctioned by a government who reaped the tax benefits of the property boom.

All this was aided and abetted by the papers, whos biggest funders were Sherry Fitzgerald, Gunne, Remax, who were given free reign to print whatever they wanted, and it was swallowed hook, line and sinker.

It surely must be the single biggest act of fraud in the history of this country.

If Eamonn Dunphy, John Giles and a whole host of other pundit 'experts' said that Italy were going to beat New Zealand in this years World Cup and you stuck your life savings on it then where would the buck stop?

There was the expectation in this country that property prices only ever rose. It was incorrect. Property has fallen before and is falling now albeit at a faster pace now.

People who bought property in the last few years and are now in negative equity can ony blame themselves but unfortunately it's the culture in Ireland to blame others.

To quote Trent Reznor "i'm sick of hearing bout the haves and the have nots have some personal accountability"

Sleepy

North_West_Art wrote: »

yes but very many individuals who took out mortgages, did so on the word of people who claimed to be experts in the field of property; sales-people who claimed that property was the best investment.. people who made it as easy as possible for anyone to get a mortgage.

This was all fully sanctioned by a government who reaped the tax benefits of the property boom.

All this was aided and abetted by the papers, whos biggest funders were Sherry Fitzgerald, Gunne, Remax, who were given free reign to print whatever they wanted, and it was swallowed hook, line and sinker.

It surely must be the single biggest act of fraud in the history of this country.

I'm a financial expert. You should sign all your assets over to me.

ei.sdraob

wait until property taxes are introduced

then everyone will be struggling to pay bills (homeowner and rental)

here are the rates for Belfast

Apartment

---

£545.04
Terrace house

---

£564.95
Three bedroom, semi-detached house

---

£864.00
Four bedroom, detached house

---

£1,920.82

The govt made noise about raising 2 billion from property taxes, that's about 1K per house/apt average


I recommend people start saving now

North_West_Art

mathie wrote: »

If Eamonn Dunphy, John Giles and a whole host of other pundit 'experts' said that Italy were going to beat New Zealand in this years World Cup and you stuck your life savings on it then where would the buck stop?

There was the expectation in this country that property prices only ever rose. It was incorrect. Property has fallen before and is falling now albeit at a faster pace now.

People who bought property in the last few years and are now in negative equity can ony blame themselves but unfortunately it's the culture in Ireland to blame others.

To quote Trent Reznor "i'm sick of hearing bout the haves and the have nots have some personal accountability"

Your example of Dunphy etc refers to gambling... what Im refering to is people that were stretched to their very last, so that they could buy a house to live in... but being grossly over-charged for the house. btw, who the hell is Trent Reznor?

Sleepy, I will need a better sales pitch than that, maybe if you had a glossy ad in a reputable paper like the Sunday Times.

Sleepy

North West Art - what would you propose? That the taxpayer pick up the tab for the negative equity portion of all mortgages taken out over the past few years? That the banks are forced to consider all mortgages issued over the past few years to be non recourse and the taxpayer can then pump more money into the banks to make up this new gap on their spreadsheets as homeowners in negative equity hand back the keys?

We shouldn't be socialising the losses of the banks that lent foolishly to developers. The loans they were given shouldn't have been given on a non recourse basis. It's arguable that all mortgage lending should have been conducted on a non-recourse basis to encourage more prudent lending by the banks. None of this, however, is an argument to socialise the losses of private individuals who over-borrowed to buy over-priced property.

Why should my taxes be higher so John & Mary down the road don't suffer the consequences of their own actions?

twofoot6

Sleepy wrote: »

North West Art - what would you propose? That the taxpayer pick up the tab for the negative equity portion of all mortgages taken out over the past few years? That the banks are forced to consider all mortgages issued over the past few years to be non recourse and the taxpayer can then pump more money into the banks to make up this new gap on their spreadsheets as homeowners in negative equity hand back the keys?

We shouldn't be socialising the losses of the banks that lent foolishly to developers. The loans they were given shouldn't have been given on a non recourse basis. It's arguable that all mortgage lending should have been conducted on a non-recourse basis to encourage more prudent lending by the banks. None of this, however, is an argument to socialise the losses of private individuals who over-borrowed to buy over-priced property.

Why should my taxes be higher so John & Mary down the road don't suffer the consequences of their own actions?

Which would you prefer-your taxes go towards assisting the ordinary joe soap who got stung badly at the height of the property boom or that your taxes get pumped into NAMA to bail out the banks?

I take full responsibility for paying well over the odds for my house but at the time I didn't feel I had much options available to me. I was really sick of renting and at the time rents were really high and I was getting too old for house sharing. Renting had it's own problems in that the landlord could sell up at any time and this did happen to people I know who had children, leaving them very vulnerable. My other option was to buy outside of Dublin and have the long commute but when I added up the time spent on travelling and the cost of petrol I felt it was better to buy in Dublin.

I am angry now and was angry at the time when I was buying. I was angry that they introduced a 100% mortgages just when we had saved enough for a deposit. We knew house prices were going to rise again because of the 100% mortgages. I was angry I had to pay €30,000 in stamp duty but new houses were more expensive than the our second hand house. I was angry that biding wars were allowed to happen and that the price of a house advertised would not be the price paid in the end. I bid on many houses that went out my reach. In hindsight I feel very foolish.

danbohan

ei.sdraob wrote: »

wait until property taxes are introduced

then everyone will be struggling to pay bills (homeowner and rental)

here are the rates for Belfast




The govt made noise about raising 2 billion from property taxes, that's about 1K per house/apt average


I recommend people start saving now

wonder if they can get 1k from all the ghosts in the ghost estate houses though? average rates 4 bed house in fermanagh is £1500 , i have laugh when people say cost living is so cheap in n ireland to justify the 2x wages and sw payments in south , just another example of how deluded we had become . property taxes are coming and will be a big part of goverment income stream in next few years

thebman

North_West_Art wrote: »

yes but very many individuals who took out mortgages, did so on the word of people who claimed to be experts in the field of property; sales-people who claimed that property was the best investment.. people who made it as easy as possible for anyone to get a mortgage.

This was all fully sanctioned by a government who reaped the tax benefits of the property boom.

All this was aided and abetted by the papers, whos biggest funders were Sherry Fitzgerald, Gunne, Remax, who were given free reign to print whatever they wanted, and it was swallowed hook, line and sinker.

It surely must be the single biggest act of fraud in the history of this country.

You said it yourself, sales people.

Sales people are generally not experts in anything and if you asked couldn't even tell you for sure if the house had a door with a handle although they would still tell you it had with a big grin on their faces despite not knowing.

If someone is selling you something even if they are experts why would you listen to their advice, they clearly have a conflict of interest do you not think?

People should have looked for independant advice from a third party that wasn't in the business of selling houses and maintaining a property bubble.

Sleepy

twofoot6 wrote: »

Which would you prefer-your taxes go towards assisting the ordinary joe soap who got stung badly at the height of the property boom or that your taxes get pumped into NAMA to bail out the banks?

Honestly I'd rather not pay for either. Thing is, if the major banks were to go bust the entire economy would grind to a halt. An economy without a banking system is like an engine without oil, it just seizes. Arguably we should have just nationalised the banks rather than using the NAMA mechanism and Anglo should certainly never have been included in the guarantee system and let hit the wall. However, that's done, there's nothing we can do about it at this stage. Any alternatives at this stage will cost us even more than the path we're on so we're stuck with it. Bailing out more people who, for the most part, can still manage to pay their mortgages is not something I'm prepared to do. Those that can't, I might have some sympathy for - and from what I can see, the banks aren't exactly turfing people out of their homes left, right and centre. To date, they seem to be quite happy to work with anyone prepared to service their loans.

I take full responsibility for paying well over the odds for my house but at the time I didn't feel I had much options available to me. I was really sick of renting and at the time rents were really high and I was getting too old for house sharing. Renting had it's own problems in that the landlord could sell up at any time and this did happen to people I know who had children, leaving them very vulnerable. My other option was to buy outside of Dublin and have the long commute but when I added up the time spent on travelling and the cost of petrol I felt it was better to buy in Dublin.

I am angry now and was angry at the time when I was buying. I was angry that they introduced a 100% mortgages just when we had saved enough for a deposit. We knew house prices were going to rise again because of the 100% mortgages. I was angry I had to pay €30,000 in stamp duty but new houses were more expensive than the our second hand house. I was angry that biding wars were allowed to happen and that the price of a house advertised would not be the price paid in the end. I bid on many houses that went out my reach. In hindsight I feel very foolish.

I get why you're angry and I would be had I not had understood enough about economics to recognise a property bubble when I was living through one. It's a failing of our education system that more people didn't have that knowledge. It's a far worse indictment of our government that their policies encouraged the bubble, that they ignored any warnings given to them by those who knew better, that they *still* haven't regulated the real estate industry, that the planning system was so flawed and open to corruption, that they still haven't brought in sensible legislation to govern the rental market, that they ballooned the size of, and salaries of the public sector based on unsustainable taxes on construction and house sales etc. etc. etc.

Hell, I've not even been burnt by the bubble beyond what it's done to my earning potential in the current climate and the taxes I'll be paying to dig us out of this mess and I'm mad. And the worst thing about the anger for both of us, is that there's absolutely **** all we can do with it.

murf313

RichardAnd wrote: »

Well actually it's not in a bank at all, it's in the post office. I keep a small amount with AIB at all times though.

Anyone can save that amount of money though without too much trouble providing they are single and not a parent. Children eat up a wage package terribly and courtship costs a lot too with dates and gifts. Also, having no wife nor children is a type of economic security as if I loose my job, I have only to worry about myself.

Perhaps my outlook will change but I have friends who are parents and right now, I do not in the least envy their position.

holy ****! are you for real?

"courtship" costs too much?? no offence but you need to get a life!!! (i mean that in the nicest way possible)

you can save all the money you make but remember one thing... you cant bring it with you when you die!! you could be killed tomorrow and you would have spent your life saving and being miserable and waiting for the rainy day...

take a bit of that cash and go to vegas or something, because what you are doing is not healthy!:cool:

dudara

Sleepy wrote: »

Hell, I've not even been burnt by the bubble beyond what it's done to my earning potential in the current climate and the taxes I'll be paying to dig us out of this mess and I'm mad. And the worst thing about the anger for both of us, is that there's absolutely **** all we can do with it.

This sums my feelings up 100%. My partner and I didn't buy. We resisted family pressure because we felt that all we saw around us was craziness. I'm a physicist by education - and what I saw was a period of rapid expansion and instability. Any physicist knows that such attributes are typical of an unstable, chaotic system. Plus, I grew up with parents that distrusted banks and barely use credit in any form.

So I escaped the negative equity trap - but I haven't escaped the consequences. I lost several hundred euros a month in pay cuts and increased goverment taxes - all required to fund this mess. I understand economics now, and I am both equally furious and amazed that the zombie that is Anglo continues to be funded - with my money, your money, our money. However, I am not prepared to hand over more money to bail out people that willingly signed their names to mortgage papers.

johnnyskeleton

Sleepy wrote: »

Brendan O' Connor hasn't written a good article in his life and the one you've linked to is no exception.

Sleepy, obviously you are neither smart nor ballsy enough to have read this piece:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-smart-ballsy-guys-are-buying-up-property-right-now-1047118.html

The fact that every time it is posted increases its ranking on Google searches for Brendan O'Connor (yes folks, that's right, Brendan O'Connor) has in no way persuaded me to post the above link.

johnnyskeleton

fedor.2 wrote: »

Christ, anybody got a noose? what are ye like? A cure for depression ye aint.

The short term fix for depression are anti depressant drugs which knock you out. The long term fix is dealing with or managing the underlying issues, which causes short term pain. Sometimes the short term fix prevents the long term solution being considered.

The posters on this thread don't want short fixes, but to deal the with underlying issues. That's hardly depressing. If anything, you could take heart in that.

AlekSmart

Kids are an expensive lifestyle choice and if you want to have children, you may have to sacrifice some other stuff.

Jeepers Dudara whilst I see where you`re coming from,I reckon you`ll be savaged on the streets.......:eek:

This thread might put you right about "Lifestyle Choices" n stuff :rolleyes:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055946183