Neo-pagans and heritage

sensibleken

Today's papers featured pictures of the summer solstice gathering at Tara. Now most of the mocking/ire/criticism here is directed at the big three monotheistic religions but I paricularly get annoyed at new-age pagans.

I am an avid admirer of Irelands megalithic monuments and spend most weekends going around the country visiting and photographing our historic sites. The amount of times i have had to remove candle wax from dolmens and ribbons from trees around stone circles which have the potential to be destructive to the monuments is staggering.

Having met an awfull lot of followers of various types of paganism (and i realise its not one uniform organised religion and is therefore not subject to various stereotypes) the most common response I receive from people is that they are going back to or keeping alive pagan rituals or beliefs. I don't buy that as we know virtually nothing of what people believed in pre-historic Ireland.

The problem is that allot of this is becoming accepted mainstream and I fear that in at sometime in the future we could have a situation like stonehenge, where it is just handed over to 'druids' on one day of the year, applying to sites like brú na boinne or loughcrew.

Is this just another example of how the religious 'bagsy' bits of history for themselves from ancient babylon to haille sellaise II

Rev Hellfire

sensibleken wrote: »

Now most of the mocking/ire/criticism here is directed at the big three monotheistic religions but I paricularly get annoyed at new-age pagans.

I'm with you there, whatever about getting brought up into Christianity but to actually sit down decide its a nonsense but that clearly some fantasy inspired hogwash is for you is beyond me.

sensibleken wrote: »

Is this just another example of how the religious 'bagsy' bits of history for themselves from ancient babylon to haille sellaise II

No I think its more a symptom of society feeling compelled to tolerate/accept any nonsense for fear that someone somewhere might get offended.

sensibleken

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

No I think its more a symptom of society feeling compelled to tolerate/accept any nonsense for fear that someone somewhere might get offended.

yeah i think you're right. the last time i was up at loughcrew for the equinox i actually had someone tell me about the leprechaun that moved in with her. no sh1t!

Nemi

sensibleken wrote: »

The amount of times i have had to remove candle wax from dolmens and ribbons from trees around stone circles which have the potential to be destructive to the monuments is staggering.

What actual harm does candle wax and tree ribbons do? Serious question - I haven't a clue.

Is this any more troublesome than trainspotting?

sensibleken

Nemi wrote: »

What actual harm does candle wax and tree ribbons do? Serious question - I haven't a clue.

Is this any more troublesome than trainspotting?

well when you take the candle wax off you can pull some lichen off which can take part of the stone away, also it has sometimes got between the joins on dolmens making it nearly impossible to remove and also the candle leaves scorch marks. the ribbons can remove the bark a little but really thats just littering and that pisses me off.

i've also seen scorch marks from fires in some stone circles such as the pipers stones in blessington and have seen one in england split in half from people lighting fires there.

Rev Hellfire

Nemi wrote: »

What actual harm does candle wax and tree ribbons do? Serious question - I haven't a clue.

Is this any more troublesome than trainspotting?

Yes because they'll pass their bullshít onto their children. Seriously should people be teaching children that magic's real and other such nonsenses, its as bad as creationism on the stupidity stakes.

The "druids" crap annoys me too. They died out and their oral tradition is gone too, deal with it.
It's like eejits waffling on about "karma" when they haven't the first clue about the actual meaning or origins of the word and probably never heard of the bhagavad gita.
All this alternative rubbish just to be cool or something.

the problem is that allot of this

It's "a lot", not allot...

sensibleken

bluewolf wrote: »

It's "a lot", not allot...

tanks

Dades

I don't really care as long as they don't set up camp in my garden, or insist my kids pretend to accept their mumbo-jumbo to get them into the local school.

Truley

I think the majority of people who go to these ceremonies are doing it out of historical interest and/or a celebration of the changing seasons rather than genuine religious belief. I have no problem with that, I think it's a nice thing actually. However I saw the pictures from the stonehenge celebration and it was depressing to say the least. Seriously it was left looking like a bomb had hit it with all the garbage, and who is left to clean it all up? Wouldn't it be nice if people had the same reverance towards our planet as they did to religious doctrine :rolleyes:

sensibleken

Truley wrote: »

I think the majority of people who go to these ceremonies are doing it out of historical interest and/or a celebration of the changing seasons rather than genuine religious belief. I have no problem with that, I think it's a nice thing actually. However I saw the pictures from the stonehenge celebration and it was depressing to say the least. Seriously it was left looking like a bomb had hit it with all the garbage, and who is left to clean it all up? Wouldn't it be nice if people had the same reverance towards our planet as they did to religious doctrine :rolleyes:

the vast majority are. i go to the equinoxes at loughcrew, tara at samhain (which has the allignment not the solstice) and the vast majority of people there are not pagans but people with as you said, people with an interest. yeah thats great. what annoys me is the damage some do, the distorting of history and the fact that they will lay claim to some sort inherited right to places

wonderfulname

The Festival of the Fires sprang to mind when I read your post.

In accordance with Dept of the Environment regulations, the main festivities took place away from the main monuments

Perhaps these regulations need stricter enforcement, and also enforcing upon smaller scale gatherings?

I do agree with you in regards to our perception of this culture, as is evident from the above link it is indeed becoming more mainstream, with people taking the "may haves" of popular documentaries as reenactments of a tradition which in truth, we have very little concrete information on. I don't think that as these festivities become more mainstream the fevority of some pagan beliefs does too, I agree with Truly that most people appear to attend these out of historical or cultural interest.

sensibleken

the festival of the fires is an example of what should be done. previously at uisneach on bealtine a few pagans used to gather on the hill and of course they started giving out when this thing started, an event for everyone that would take mind of the place

magicbastarder

i actually think it's quite interesting that people try to reconnect with the monuments in the way they do, rather than looking on them as a sterile bunch of stones the way most of the rest of the population do. they probably have a greater understanding of the connection these works gave to the people who constructed them, even if a lot of their preconceptions may be wrong.

btw - i'm not excusing littering or similar, but given the length of time a lot of these monuments have lasted, i don't think candles are the biggest concern as regards their future.

Rev Hellfire

magicbastarder wrote: »

i actually think it's quite interesting that people try to reconnect with the monuments in the way they do, rather than looking on them as a sterile bunch of stones the way most of the rest of the population do. they probably have a greater understanding of the connection these works gave to the people who constructed them, even if a lot of their preconceptions may be wrong.

Perhaps people would be better off not harking back to some supposed past but better off dealing with the reality that exists today.
While its nice to have a some rocks in a field to look at, but we shouldn't be held hostage by the past.

wonderfulname

magicbastarder wrote: »

btw - i'm not excusing littering or similar, but given the length of time a lot of these monuments have lasted, i don't think candles are the biggest concern as regards their future.

Look at newgrange now, after the OPW restored it and then take a look at other passage tombs, such as these at loughcrew. we tend to assume the skeletal stone structures we see look as they always have but in fact that is not the case. And considering Poulnabrone dolmen collapsed in on itself in the 80s of its own accord I would well believe that people following some form of pagan ritual could easily speed up the processes of erosion, the straw that broke the camels back and all that..
sensibleken already gave examples of how people can inflict massive damage on sites purely out of ignorance;

sensibleken wrote:

i've also seen scorch marks from fires in some stone circles such as the pipers stones in blessington and have seen one in england split in half from people lighting fires there.

magicbastarder

the restoration of newgrange is not a point either for or against what the OP is discussing, as it was done outside the context of paganism.

as long as they're not damaging archaeology, i think the sites are better off for having people who are trying to regain some sense of what they were originally for. it's not something i'm going to join in with, mind.

wonderfulname

magicbastarder wrote: »

the restoration of newgrange is not a point either for or against what the OP is discussing, as it was done outside the context of paganism.

Thats not what I'm saying!! I'm saying that these stone age sites have not lasted at all, you say they have but time has had an effect on them as it does everything.

Rev Hellfire

magicbastarder wrote: »

as long as they're not damaging archaeology, i think the sites are better off for having people who are trying to regain some sense of what they were originally for.

I think the problem though is not that people are attempting to discover what they where and what they where used for. But rather these sites are been co-opted by religious people who seek to impose their views of what they should be upon them. They seek to create a sort of pseudo-history to validate their beliefs at the expense of historical accuracy, much as creationist scientists seek to do with geology and other scientific disciplines.

sensibleken

magicbastarder wrote: »

the restoration of newgrange is not a point either for or against what the OP is discussing, as it was done outside the context of paganism.

as long as they're not damaging archaeology, i think the sites are better off for having people who are trying to regain some sense of what they were originally for. it's not something i'm going to join in with, mind.

but thats the point. we have no idea what they were for. now if we were to somehow re-discover that then that would be fine. however, wheres theres gaps, sometimes where there isnt gaps, you get a lot of neo pagans inserting crap. again not a problem untill it becomes mainstream and starts taking over from the facts.

you wanna see an example of absolute bull when paganism takes a hold of history
http://www.irelandsown.net/ogham.html

wonderfulname

sensibleken wrote: »

you wanna see an example of absolute bull when paganism takes a hold of history
http://www.irelandsown.net/ogham.html

The Celts believed that many tress were inhabited by spirits, as some trees are found to have a strong aura surrounding them. They also believed that the aura of certain trees could have a healing influence on humans. Thus, it was from the Celts that the terms, “touch wood” and “knock on wood” originated.

Lmfao.. oh I love it..

Nemi

magicbastarder wrote: »

as long as they're not damaging archaeology, i think the sites are better off for having people who are trying to regain some sense of what they were originally for. it's not something i'm going to join in with, mind.

In a sense, I know what you mean. Even if they are largely making stuff up, in a way that's no different to the people who made the monuments in the first place.

I suppose the difference is that the people who made Newgrange and the like really achieved something, and clearly we don't want the relics of that to be destroyed by a bunch of random individuals who have decided to build a religion around it.

The preservation of the monuments is the main concern. If someone invents a ritual that damages the sites, they can just go and build their own Stonehenge. Otherwise, why wouldn't they do whatever comes naturally to them.

Rev Hellfire

Nemi wrote: »

In a sense, I know what you mean. Even if they are largely making stuff up, in a way that's no different to the people who made the monuments in the first place.

No its totally different, the people who made those monuments did so without accumulated knowledge we have amassed. These people do it in spite of the all the knowledge made available to them.

Nemi

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

No its totally different, the people who made those monuments did so without accumulated knowledge we have amassed. These people do it in spite of the all the knowledge made available to them.

Fair point.

Although it does draw attention to how the "knowledge we have amassed" just isn't a thing of value for some.

sensibleken

Nemi wrote: »

In a sense, I know what you mean. Even if they are largely making stuff up, in a way that's no different to the people who made the monuments in the first place.

well the thing is theres nothing to say these sites were religious. massive monuments to astronomy, geometry and engineering it could be said (and im not saying that was their intention but they had a keen understanding of those sciences to build these).
but pagans, wiccans, druids all take their own gods that were dreamt up thousands of years after these were built and then plonk it on these buildings. its like some future religion saying that we worshipped clouds because we built helicopters

wonderfulname

Nemi wrote: »

Although it does draw attention to how the "knowledge we have amassed" just isn't a thing of value for some.

We can deduce that stone age man had a greater wealth of knowledge than most ejits on the island today. To build the lightbox at newgrange required a great deal of knowledge about the night sky and engineering. For all we know there may have been nothing religious to this, it may just have been a sort of stone age calender heralding the beginning of the farming season. We assume the religious aspect as it is also a tomb, suggesting a belief in life after death, but you could equally say it simply shows a respect for certain members of the community if you wanted. Its more plausable than what some people believe..

Gregor Samsa

Dades wrote: »

I don't really care as long as they don't set up camp in my garden, or insist my kids pretend to accept their mumbo-jumbo to get them into the local school.

What about when they get a motorway delayed and (slightly) rerouted because of a "fairy tree"?

I drive that road twice a day, and each time I come to that spot, with the bush protected by a fence and the pointless wobble in the road, I curse the idiocy of superstition.

magicbastarder

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

They seek to create a sort of pseudo-history to validate their beliefs at the expense of historical accuracy, much as creationist scientists seek to do with geology and other scientific disciplines.

i've seen people at tara saluting the sun, or whatever it is they were doing. as long as they're doing no more damage than any other visitor there, let them at it. certainly beats sitting in a church self-flagellating. i'm not aware of any pseudo-history they've created gaining any traction outside their own circles - has this become an issue?

sensibleken

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not aware of any pseudo-history they've created gaining any traction outside their own circles - has this become an issue?

yes look at stonehenge in england at the summer solstice. it was off limits but then it was handed over to 'druids', why them, why not scientologists.

Rev Hellfire

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not aware of any pseudo-history they've created gaining any traction outside their own circles - has this become an issue?

I'm sure some roman said the same of those Christians at some point. All those lovely dovey religious types soon show their fangs when they get critical mass.

Dades

phutyle wrote: »

I drive that road twice a day, and each time I come to that spot, with the bush protected by a fence and the pointless wobble in the road, I curse the idiocy of superstition.

Was it a juniper bush?

hairyheretic

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'm sure some roman said the same of those Christians at some point. All those lovely dovey religious types soon show their fangs when they get critical mass.

Get any group together, give them authority and you'll find someone there willing to abuse it for their own ends. Religious, political, social .. human nature is still human nature.

Rev Hellfire

hairyheretic wrote: »

Get any group together, give them authority and you'll find someone there willing to abuse it for their own ends. Religious, political, social .. human nature is still human nature.

Thats true, but religion provides a fertile ground for it to grow in.

sensibleken

wonderfulname wrote: »

Look at newgrange now, after the OPW restored it and then take a look at other passage tombs, such as these at loughcrew. we tend to assume the skeletal stone structures we see look as they always have but in fact that is not the case. And considering Poulnabrone dolmen collapsed in on itself in the 80s of its own accord I would well believe that people following some form of pagan ritual could easily speed up the processes of erosion, the straw that broke the camels back and all that..

i agree that the OPW are far more guilty of vandalism than neo-pagans. Newgrange, Carrowkeel, Fourknocks, Kiltiernan dolmen, Proleek, Glendruid to name but a few have all been b*lloxed up with too much concrete.

hairyheretic

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Thats true, but religion provides a fertile ground for it to grow in.

Certainly it can, but you'll find those who believe the absolute righteousness of their cause outside of religious belief too. And they're all equally irritating.

Unless they're granted some kind of public power, their influence is at least limited to their own group.

Frankly I don't particularly care what other people believe, as long as they're not trying to force me to believe the same thing.

Nevyn

sensibleken wrote: »

the vast majority are. i go to the equinoxes at loughcrew, tara at samhain (which has the allignment not the solstice) and the vast majority of people there are not pagans but people with as you said, people with an interest. yeah thats great. what annoys me is the damage some do, the distorting of history and the fact that they will lay claim to some sort inherited right to places

I agree with everything you have said above and frankly abhor the trampling of TARA which a happens every year and may damage the mounds and the neo 'druids' and their petty politics.

sensibleken

Thaedydal wrote: »

I agree with everything you have said above and frankly abhor the trampling of TARA which a happens every year and may damage the mounds and the neo 'druids' and their petty politics.

Tara is a particularly delicate site. Most people go there and say 'theres nothing there', which kind of misses the point IMHO. There is also no concrete association between Tara and the solstice, there is between the mound of the hostages and samhain and imbolc, and my worry is that if this catches on the severe footfall could be damaging to the small bit thats left.

you could say that O'Connell held monster meetings there and the site survived but i think poor catholic peasants may have dropped less crisp packets than modern man

Nevyn

You are right it has no associations with the soltaice, nowth and dowth are algined with the equinoxes and winter soltaice with newgrange but there isn't anywhere which is aligned with the summer solstice.

The OPW already has planning permission granted to fence off Tara and they are just looking for an excuse imho and it will get to the stage where they will be enforce the planning laws and permission for assembly on the 'event' at Tara to stop it.

sensibleken

Thaedydal wrote: »

You are right it has no associations with the soltaice, nowth and dowth are algined with the equinoxes and winter soltaice with newgrange but there isn't anywhere which is aligned with the summer solstice.

The OPW already has planning permission granted to fence off Tara and they are just looking for an excuse imho and it will get to the stage where they will be enforce the planning laws and permission for assembly on the 'event' at Tara to stop it.

any idea what part their fencing off? the compex is boxed off by a wall. the opw ruin every site they get a hold of. theyve just ruined pegs on the the blasket islands. fence + concrete does not equal preservation

Nevyn

far as I can tell the whole site, they have been trying to by out the coffee shop and other shops there for years to build an interpretive center.

recedite

sensibleken wrote: »

you wanna see an example of absolute bull when paganism takes a hold of history
http://www.irelandsown.net/ogham.html

Which bit are you disputing; the ogham alphabet or the ancient legends?

I think you don't like it when you have to share "your" monuments once a year with these nut jobs.

wonderfulname

recedite wrote: »

Which bit are you disputing; the ogham alphabet or the ancient legends?

I think you don't like it when you have to share "your" monuments once a year with these nut jobs.

The ancient legends I would assume, and the fact they are being presented as history, any assumption as to the social or cultural world of stone age Ireland are purely just that, assumptions, websites like this one are examples of where people took it too far and came up with ridiculous stories which have no basis.

The OP obviously has a keen interest in these sites but i think it is obvious from this post there is no opposition to to the celebrations going ahead, just the possibility of damage being done.

recedite

Well I realise that the gullible need to be protected to a certain extent, but any bookshop stocks numerous works on Irish legends; should we burn them, in case someone confuses them with history books?

The ogham guy seems more like a case of "Paganism takes a hold of old Irish legends".

wonderfulname

recedite wrote: »

Well I realise that the gullible need to be protected to a certain extent, but any bookshop stocks numerous works on Irish legends; should we burn them, in case someone confuses them with history books?

The ogham guy seems more like a case of "Paganism takes a hold of old Irish legends".

No don't be acting silly now legends aren't presented as truths that crap was.

sensibleken

recedite wrote: »

Which bit are you disputing; the ogham alphabet or the ancient legends?

I think you don't like it when you have to share "your" monuments once a year with these nut jobs.

what i am disputing is the 'magical' aspect. Ogham stones exclusively state peoples names, nothing further. The earliest examples are from the 4th century. any connection to anything spiritual or pagan is non-existant.

ancient legends relating to these ogham and megalithic sites must be interpreted in the atmosphere of realisation that the legends were written (written down at least) an awful long time after these were built

and crucially, not "my" monuments, "our" monuments. national monuments that belong to all the people of Ireland and beyond, not a small self selective cult or religious/spiritual persuasion. I am all for sharing, but sharing with all.

the_syco

You may think a ribbon would do nothing, but if a rope is tied on a branch, over time, the branch will grow around it. Sure, I'm talking many years, but I have seen it happen. It causes the branch to be weak, and it'll eventually just fall off due to it's own weight.



My view on the new lads on the block is that they're looking for something to believe, find something, take out all the nasty bits, and only follow the fun and easy parts.

strobe

sensibleken wrote: »

and crucially, not "my" monuments, "our" monuments. national monuments that belong to all the people of Ireland and beyond, not a small self selective cult or religious/spiritual persuasion. I am all for sharing, but sharing with all.

Including sharing them with the "neo-pagans"? I don't think these people are pushing to have ownership of these things or to be the only people allowed near them. I think you should focus on your OP in regards to people damaging these things. Out of curiosity would you have a problem with "druids" or whatever they call themselves having ceromonies around these monuments if they caused absolutely no damage, avoided interfering with them in any way and cleaned up completely after themselves?

sensibleken

strobe wrote: »

Including sharing them with the "neo-pagans"? I don't think these people are pushing to have ownership of these things or to be the only people allowed near them. I think you should focus on your OP in regards to people damaging these things. Out of curiosity would you have a problem with "druids" or whatever they call themselves having ceromonies around these monuments if they caused absolutely no damage, avoided interfering with them in any way and cleaned up completely after themselves?

no i wouldn't, and i think i made that clear. however my worry is that, such as when druids brought a case to the European court of justice regarding their right to worship at stone henge, the british government granted thereafter to them. despite the fact that those druids bared no reseblence to anything that druids actually were in the iron age, also 2000 years after t was built. thats granting it to a specific group rather than to all the people of england, to whom it belongs. as far as i see you could just as rightly have given to scientologists

my second objection is those who cause damage to the site, both for religious reasons but as i also stated the OPW. as i posted this in the A&A forum i concentrated on the religious though i have been far more active in trying to prevent the OPW f*cking things up with concrete.

thirdly my objection is the distortion of history to fit religious reasons. such as in that article on ogham. I have been briefly discousing with a member of the paganism forum who is a reconstructionist and i have dealt with in the past with reconstructionists and found an awefull lot of good genuine scholarship. i do not agree that them that these gods and spirits are real but they have produced some good work.

as long as history is not distorted and sites are left un-molested then it is no buisness of mine.

'leave only footsteps, take only memories'

sensibleken

the_syco wrote: »

You may think a ribbon would do nothing, but if a rope is tied on a branch, over time, the branch will grow around it. Sure, I'm talking many years, but I have seen it happen. It causes the branch to be weak, and it'll eventually just fall off due to it's own weight.



My view on the new lads on the block is that they're looking for something to believe, find something, take out all the nasty bits, and only follow the fun and easy parts.

as a former body piercer i can tell you thats not how you do that piercing

joking asude. paint at this time of night is some dedication. im coming back from 6 hours in the pub and i can hardly go on

Dades

That diagram is just... disturbing.

Dave!

This is your penis before paganism

This is your penis after paganism