Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

jwwb

lxflyer wrote: »

The issue that I have is not the fact that junctions might be blocked (of course that's possible) - it's the frequency that the lights on the Quays at O'Connell Bridge will turn red, and the necessarily shorter length of time that they will be green due to a potential frequency of 20 trams an hour.

With all of the additional buses that will be diverted via the Quays I do believe that this will be an issue, as well as along the shared space on Dawson St, Nassau St and Grafton St. The interaction with so many bus routes at one specific location is the issue - no single location on the Red Line comes close.

AT O'Connell Bridge what proportion of buses are turning back having come from the West and going back West? No figures but I think it is the majority.

Why should these buses cross onto the eastern span of O'Connell Bridge? If they are kept on the Western span they do not have to cross the track twice.

Same with buses coming from the East and going out East again.

LXFlyer

jwwb wrote: »

AT O'Connell Bridge what proportion of buses are turning back having come from the West and going back West? No figures but I think it is the majority.

Why should these buses cross onto the eastern span of O'Connell Bridge? If they are kept on the Western span they do not have to cross the track twice.

Same with buses coming from the East and going out East again.

Zilch - the vast majority continue south and some continue east, while some will continue north (the ones rerouted from College Green) - none of them have city centre termini anymore.

AngryLips

No way will they reduce frequencies on a brand new piece of infrastructure like this, the whole thing is costed on the basis of a full service. They will divert car traffic and reroute bus routes at the first signs of trouble.

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

No way will they reduce frequencies on a brand new piece of infrastructure like this, the whole thing is costed on the basis of a full service. They will divert car traffic and reroute bus routes at the first signs of trouble.

DCC reduced the priority to red line trams across O'Connell st about a year into its operation. I'm sure this had an impact on the peak hour frequency. It's not unthinkable that the same could happen the green line.

jamo2oo9

Can the LUAS not flow with the traffic? i.e. coming off O' Connell Bridge, lights are green straight onto O' Connell St but red for right turn onto Eden Quay.

Jamie2k9

markpb wrote: »

DCC reduced the priority to red line trams across O'Connell st about a year into its operation. I'm sure this had an impact on the peak hour frequency. It's not unthinkable that the same could happen the green line.

It just shows how flawed DCC decision was as today particularly in the morning O'Connell Street lights are so slow to change they isn't a traffic flow down the street to warrant the times and trams just stopped for no good reason.

No way will they reduce frequencies on a brand new piece of infrastructure like this, the whole thing is costed on the basis of a full service. They will divert car traffic and reroute bus routes at the first signs of trouble.

I tend to agree in general, if there is a lot of problems some bus services will be adjusted but there has been one or two big planning errors for the tram routing in the city.

While there are new trams being ordered at the extended length, my understanding is that all of the existing Green Line trams are also to be lengthened to the same length as the new trams - hence the absolute necessity for them to be able to get the clear runs from Westmoreland to O'Connell (GPO) stops northbound, and Marlborough stop to the top of Hawkins St southbound.

Hence this could be a real issue!

Any idea if the additional middle cars have been ordered for the existing fleet.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

No way will they reduce frequencies on a brand new piece of infrastructure like this, the whole thing is costed on the basis of a full service. They will divert car traffic and reroute bus routes at the first signs of trouble.

So you're saying that the greater number of bus users should be put out for a smaller number of LUAS users - I'm sorry but that is a nonsensical argument.

Are you suggesting that the bus passengers have less of a right to access the city centre just because they don't live near a LUAS line?

What impact would your solution have on connectivity between bus routes - the answer is that it would make it far more difficult. You need to facilitate interchange in the city centre - losing that is much too great a price to pay.

And where do you suggest you magically re-route all those bus routes to?

The fact that this level of detail is only being examined at the last minute rather than at the time of making the investment decision says it all really.

AngryLips

lxflyer wrote: »

So you're saying that the greater number of bus users should be put out for a smaller number of LUAS users

Yes. Because buses can be rerouted whereas trams cannot. This question was answered when planning permission was granted. Re-routing buses from the north quays heading southbound via Parliament Street would massively reduce the demands on O'Connell Bridge and again via Georges Street. The city centre is growing and why the O'Connell Street/Nassau street corridor seems to be considered the only north-south axis is a mystery to me.

lawred2

AngryLips wrote: »

Yes. Because buses can be rerouted whereas trams cannot. This question was answered when planning permission was granted. Re-routing buses from the north quays heading southbound via Parliament Street would massively reduce the demands on O'Connell Bridge and again via Georges Street. The city centre is growing and why the O'Connell Street/Nassau street corridor seems to be considered the only north-south axis is a mystery to me.

Would also serve to improve the experience for those using/visiting the city centre every day..

O Connell Street/College Green/Dame street are parking lots for buses some times. There has to be a better way.

lawred2

lxflyer wrote: »

The fact that this level of detail is only being examined at the last minute rather than at the time of making the investment decision says it all really.

Examined by whom? Boards.ie users or transport planners? Because only one of those groups actually matters.

LXFlyer

lawred2 wrote: »

Examined by whom? Boards.ie users or transport planners? Because only one of those groups actually matters.

The latter.

No detailed plans for traffic management, or re-routing bus routes etc. were made as part of the LUAS BXD planning process. In fact Dublin Bus understood that all bus routes would return to their old routing.

The gap between the lines at College Street was put there to facilitate right turning buses.

They have only being taking place in the last 12 months. It was only then that DCC suggested that it would not be possible to manage the number of buses with the trams at College Green.

That's why I do view this whole process as somewhat shambolic.

murphaph

lawred2 wrote: »

Would also serve to improve the experience for those using/visiting the city centre every day..

O Connell Street/College Green/Dame street are parking lots for buses some times. There has to be a better way.

The better way involves banning private cars from the city centre but this means putting car parks out of business and DCC itself earns income from on street parking which it may be reluctant to lose.

It's why the NTA should have complete control of transport in the city as TfL does in London.

The best way involves building underground railways but we won't do that apparently.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Yes. Because buses can be rerouted whereas trams cannot. This question was answered when planning permission was granted. Re-routing buses from the north quays heading southbound via Parliament Street would massively reduce the demands on O'Connell Bridge and again via Georges Street. The city centre is growing and why the O'Connell Street/Nassau street corridor seems to be considered the only north-south axis is a mystery to me.

lawred2 wrote: »

Would also serve to improve the experience for those using/visiting the city centre every day..

O Connell Street/College Green/Dame street are parking lots for buses some times. There has to be a better way.

Whether either of you like it or not, until we have proper functioning underground rail systems in Dublin, the bus will still be the principal form of public transport for the majority of people in the city.

Therefore the bus service needs to serve the core city centre, and equally importantly, connectivity between bus routes needs to be maintained - in other words the ability to switch between routes at a central location. People need to be able to travel around and through the city using public transport relatively easily, without having to walk long distances to change routes.

The fact that the stops around O'Connell Bridge are generally the busiest in the city is rather telling.

Blandly suggesting re-routing buses away from where the majority of people want to go is not the solution.

As it is a significant number of bus routes are planned to use Parliament Street (northbound - 9, 16, 65/b, 68/a, 79/a, 83/a and 122, southbound - 9, 13, 27, 16, 40, 56a, 65/b, 68/a, 77a, 79/a, 83/a, 122, 123 and 151) due to the College Green Plaza - there is no more space for any more buses than that. And even that may be too much.

Indeed that proposal is now the subject of an EIS due to objections from residents and traders on Parliament Street about the proposed numbers of buses along that street.

And to emphasise - detailed traffic management plans were not published at this level of detail by the transport planners when planning permission for LUAS BXD was granted - the detailed proposals have only been developed within the last 12 months which frankly is ridiculous considering the scale of changes required.

lawred2

murphaph wrote: »

The better way involves banning private cars from the city centre but this means putting car parks out of business and DCC itself earns income from on street parking which it may be reluctant to lose.

It's why the NTA should have complete control of transport in the city as TfL does in London.

The best way involves building underground railways but we won't do that apparently.

oh I'd like cars off those streets as well.

AngryLips

lxflyer wrote: »

Therefore the bus service needs to serve the core city centre [...]
Blandly suggesting re-routing buses away from where the majority of people want to go is not the solution.

I don't think anyone would suggest that Georges Street is not part of the core city centre and actually it is far less peripheral now compared to what it was before the millennium with all the additional economic activity developing between Georges Street and Grafton Street since. Many people alight at O'Connell Street to access Henry Street, Nassau Street for Grafton Street and Westmoreland Street for Temple Bar and so routing services via say Capel Street, Parliament Street and Georges Street would not in any way limit the ability of the bus network to serve the core city centre. I don't know what you expect the EIS to reveal except to find that Parliament Street is is no way special and just as capable of accommodating buses as any other major street in the city centre. The fate of changes to the bus network and changes to traffic management around O'Connell Street was sealed when planning permission was granted for Luas Cross City, regardless of the degree of assessment done as part of that. We have had since the early nineties to get used to the idea of a Luas down O'Connell Street, I don't understand where you expect the Luas to go now that it is already being built.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

I don't think anyone would suggest that Georges Street is not part of the core city centre and actually it is far less peripheral now compared to what it was before the millennium with all the additional economic activity developing between Georges Street and Grafton Street since. Many people alight at O'Connell Street to access Henry Street, Nassau Street for Grafton Street and Westmoreland Street for Temple Bar and so routing services via say Capel Street, Parliament Street and Georges Street would not in any way limit the ability of the bus network to serve the core city centre. I don't know what you expect the EIS to reveal except to find that Parliament Street is is no way special and just as capable of accommodating buses as any other major street in the city centre. The fate of changes to the bus network and changes to traffic management around O'Connell Street was sealed when planning permission was granted for Luas Cross City, regardless of the degree of assessment done as part of that. We have had since the early nineties to get used to the idea of a Luas down O'Connell Street, I don't understand where you expect the Luas to go now that it is already being built.

With respect - I've fully accepted that the LUAS is going to be in place along the route that it is taking. That's a given - you're misrepresenting my posts.

I'm merely suggesting that the peak 3 minute (20 trams per hour) frequency suggested may turn out not to be practical, when you have all of the factors that I've referenced above in place, and that perhaps it may have to reduce to every 4 minutes (15 trams an hour). That would require some trams turning back at St Stephen's Green.

There is a balance to be struck ultimately between the various modes - one is not more important than the other despite what you seem to think. You seem to think that the bus service is a secondary mode of transport, despite the NTA recognising that for the foreseeable future it will be the workhorse of the public transport network in this city.

But until we get to the live testing phase we will have to wait and see. But personally I do honestly fear that 20 trams an hour may be too much to cope with. I genuinely hope that I'm proved wrong when the testing happens and full college term traffic resumes in October, but I'm merely expressing my opinion.

Shipping all of the buses away from the O'Connell Bridge area is simply not going to be acceptable - it is not going to happen. You need to accept that point, whether you agree with it or not. The 83 is the only route being removed, simply because there is no other way of re-routing it without making it significantly longer.

And again you miss the basic point that, having the bus routes converge on the O'Connell Bridge area facilitates a central node where people can transfer between routes and indeed the LUAS lines - that is a necessity for a public transport network. Expecting people to walk any sort of distance between services removes the appeal of using public transport and dissuades people from using it. People aren't simply travelling to the city centre -many people are transferring between routes.

As for Parliament Street, I don't know what's going to come out of the EIS and ABP hearing - I'm just highlighting the fact that it is happening and that creates further uncertainty regarding where all of the buses are going to go. And there certainly are physical limits as to how many buses that can fit onto it - retreated stop lines will be needed at both ends to facilitate buses turning into the street, which will further reduce space, and space would also be restricted on the Grattan Bridge.

For the record, I have actually gone out and done physical counts of the buses during the morning peak around the city centre, and also looked at the physical capacity of Parliament Street, and I do think that even the existing plan (southbound) may be difficult to deliver in terms of space. I'm not raising these points on a whim.

Capel Street and Jervis Street will become major traffic diversionary routes once the through car traffic is diverted away from Bachelor's Walk - sending large numbers of buses along streets like it with zero room for priority would in all likelihood be a death sentence for any form of reliable public transport in this city.

BonnieSituation

What's happening with the 83? Left onto Lord Edward St to Quays down Winetavern St and then up Church St from there?

(as it should always have been imho)

LXFlyer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's happening with the 83? Left onto Lord Edward St to Quays down Winetavern St and then up Church St from there?

(as it should always have been imho)

Georges Street - Dame Street - Parliament Street - Quays is the plan for the 83 and 83a.

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

And again you miss the basic point that, having the bus routes converge on the O'Connell Bridge area facilitates a central node where people can transfer between routes and indeed the LUAS lines - that is a necessity for a public transport network. Expecting people to walk any sort of distance between services removes the appeal of using public transport and dissuades people from using it. People aren't simply travelling to the city centre -many people are transferring between routes.

What share of DB users use two or more buses in succession? I'd be keen to see evidence either way.

I have tried it the odd time in the past but it's been so unreliable as to make it pointless, but that's just my experience.

BonnieSituation

Bray Head wrote: »

What share of DB users use two or more buses in succession? I'd be keen to see evidence either way.

I have tried it the odd time in the past but it's been so unreliable as to make it pointless, but that's just my experience.

I do it often and it's more possible now with RTPI in place to make it realistic and with re-organisation of routes in the CC and the removal of LCC works it will become evermore realistic.

The data on Leap Cards is invaluable to work this out.

Also don't forget that there are routes that don't traverse the CC that can be connected to.

Eg. I live in Lucan and my mate used to live in Rathmines and an option for me was 25A to Palmerstown and 18 to Rathmines. There are myriad options out there just using that as a non-CC example.

We need to move to a mindset of using more than one bus per journey so that routes can be shortened and made more reliable.

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The data on Leap Cards is invaluable to work this out.

Expect it's missing one vital piece of information, the exit stop.

L1011

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Expect it's missing one vital piece of information, the exit stop.

Even extrapolating the little from fare paid falls apart on season tickets and people approaching/over cap and just bumping

Chivito550

Bray Head wrote: »

What share of DB users use two or more buses in succession? I'd be keen to see evidence either way.

I have tried it the odd time in the past but it's been so unreliable as to make it pointless, but that's just my experience.

+1

Dublin Bus is tragic for connections. I do it from Ballinteer to Irishtown sometimes and regularly have to wait up to 15-20 mins for my connection such is the awful frequency of the 1 and 47. I used to do a 16/15a combo to my physio incorporating a long wait in Terenure. In general Dublin Bus is only useful for direct trips.

Chivito550

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I do it often and it's more possible now with RTPI in place to make it realistic and with re-organisation of routes in the CC and the removal of LCC works it will become evermore realistic.

The data on Leap Cards is invaluable to work this out.

Also don't forget that there are routes that don't traverse the CC that can be connected to.

Eg. I live in Lucan and my mate used to live in Rathmines and an option for me was 25A to Palmerstown and 18 to Rathmines. There are myriad options out there just using that as a non-CC example.

We need to move to a mindset of using more than one bus per journey so that routes can be shortened and made more reliable.

Maybe if they stopped charging for the second bus (albeit discounted by 1 Euro) then people might change their mindset. I've never seen anything like it anywhere else.

Idbatterim

the cross city sham increases the urgency for the new metro north, when thats in place, at least the glacial rate it moves through the core city centre area and its knock on effects, will be mitigated to some extent!

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

+1

Dublin Bus is tragic for connections. I do it from Ballinteer to Irishtown sometimes and regularly have to wait up to 15-20 mins for my connection such is the awful frequency of the 1 and 47. I used to do a 16/15a combo to my physio incorporating a long wait in Terenure. In general Dublin Bus is only useful for direct trips.

With respect expecting every single bus route to have a high frequency off-peak is not realistic - you'd have buses going around carting fresh air otherwise. There are limitations - I sometimes think you expect every single route to be flooded with buses all day long - you need to be realistic in your expectations.

There are four routes currently terminating at Ringsend Depot (15a, 15b, 56a and 77a) as well - which isn't a million miles away from Irishtown (about a 12 minute walk). I seriously doubt that Sandymount to the city centre warrants a higher frequency than what it has. The passenger numbers aren't there.

People probably need to be smarter in planning trips - using the NTA journey planner and the app, along with the RTPI tools - checking out the stop numbers at the location where they will change buses in advance can help, so people aren't waiting around unnecessarily. It won't always work perfectly - unfortunately buses will get caught up in traffic and the building site in the city centre at the moment is a serious barrier to reliability.

But it is perfectly possible to use multiple buses and plenty of people do it every single day - I commuted across the city (in several jobs) for many years using a minimum of two buses each way. That's what the NTA journey planner and google maps are there for along with RTPI.

But this is getting off-topic from LUAS BXD.

Sam Russell

Chivito550 wrote: »

+1

Dublin Bus is tragic for connections. I do it from Ballinteer to Irishtown sometimes and regularly have to wait up to 15-20 mins for my connection such is the awful frequency of the 1 and 47. I used to do a 16/15a combo to my physio incorporating a long wait in Terenure. In general Dublin Bus is only useful for direct trips.

You could try 14/18 combination - it might work better for you. Anyway, can we get back to BXD line.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

You could try 14/18 combination - it might work better for you.

And 16 to 18 can work too.

Again saving the arriving and departing stop numbers at locations where you can change buses, and then checking live information en route can make a difference, as you make an informed decision rather than standing waiting unnecessarily.

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect expecting every single bus route to have a high frequency off-peak is not realistic - you'd have buses going around carting fresh air otherwise. There are limitations - I sometimes think you expect every single route to be flooded with buses all day long - you need to be realistic in your expectations.

There are four routes currently terminating at Ringsend Depot (15a, 15b, 56a and 77a) as well - which isn't a million miles away from Irishtown (about a 12 minute walk). I seriously doubt that Sandymount to the city centre warrants a higher frequency than what it has. The passenger numbers aren't there.

People probably need to be smarter in planning trips - using the NTA journey planner and the app, along with the RTPI tools - checking out the stop numbers at the location where they will change buses in advance can help, so people aren't waiting around unnecessarily. It won't always work perfectly - unfortunately buses will get caught up in traffic and the building site in the city centre at the moment is a serious barrier to reliability.

But it is perfectly possible to use multiple buses and plenty of people do it every single day - I commuted across the city (in several jobs) for many years using a minimum of two buses each way. That's what the NTA journey planner and google maps are there for along with RTPI.

But this is getting off-topic from LUAS BXD.

Well aware that most bus routes can't have high frequency (though every 30 minutes is pretty rubbish by any standard). I'm just stating that Dublin Bus is not good for interchanges, which was in response to your original point about needing to have O'C Street as a main interchange.

The fact you have to even keep track of an app while you are travelling says it all. In any proper functioning city I've been I'd never need to do that as I'd hop off one and only be waiting a few minutes for the next.

Buses carry the most people in Dublin, you are correct. But we need to gradually move away from it, bit by bit. They are inefficient (idiots standing at the door with seats free upstairs so driver not stopping at stops), slow, infrequent, and far worse for the environment. Any move that favours a tram over a bus I'm in favour of. Short term pain for long term gain. Do we really want this city's PT still dominated by buses in 30 years?

EDIT: I have the app, have all my regular stops saved, and use google maps (not great for buses tbh). Connecting is still a pain despite all these aids. Admittedly it is lightyears ahead of the days where you had no clue when the bus was coming.

AngryLips

Bray Head wrote: »

What share of DB users use two or more buses in succession? I'd be keen to see evidence either way.

I can't remember if it was an NTA press release or something that was recently brought up on here but it was said that something like 20-30% of all public transport journeys in Dublin via leap involve a multi-modal change so it would be safe to assume that's probably the case for DB as well.

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a balance to be struck ultimately between the various modes - one is not more important than the other despite what you seem to think. You seem to think that the bus service is a secondary mode of transport

lxflyer wrote: »

And again you miss the basic point that, having the bus routes converge on the O'Connell Bridge area facilitates a central node where people can transfer between routes and indeed the LUAS lines - that is a necessity for a public transport network. Expecting people to walk any sort of distance between services removes the appeal of using public transport and dissuades people from using it.

Definitely Luas is more significant than bus for the future of public transport in Dublin. I'm not disagreeing that DB is the most important form of transport for the city but how the city will grow public transport use is going to be with Luas and not with more buses, so in that respect Luas is more significant and should be prioritised. That said, my point is that bus is far more flexible than tram from an operational point of view so I don't really understand why re-configuring bus routes around the city should be considered sacrosanct. Planners should be taking advantage of that flexibility, not ignoring it. Also, I don't agree that all bus routes need to converge on O'Connell Street to make the bus network work effectively. Most bus routes are cross-city since Network Direct, that means that so long as most of the routes intersect at some point then it's pretty inconsequential where in the city they intersect. Dublin is small enough that you can reach almost anywhere with one interchange, so you don't need a really large convergence of bus routes on O'Connell Street once those routes are still intersecting.