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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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    #8702
    Deano7788
    Registered Users Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Deano7788


    jm08 wrote: »
    Well then, what did you think of Healy jumping Court in the Ireland pecking order?

    Healy had proved he was better than Court with his performances for Leinster; Kilcoyne hasn't as of yet. The 2 situations aren't even comparable.


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    #8703
    goreyguy
    Registered Users Posts: 526 ✭✭✭goreyguy


    jm08 wrote: »
    Well then, what did you think of Healy jumping Court in the Ireland pecking order?

    you cannot be serious. situations are not comparable.


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    #8704
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Deano7788 wrote: »
    Healy had proved he was better than Court with his performances for Leinster; Kilcoyne hasn't as of yet. The 2 situations aren't even comparable.

    Healy had proved that he was much better around the pitch than Court. But he had not proved he was a better scrummager. A bit like Kilcoyne is now.


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    #8705
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    jm08 wrote: »
    Well then, what did you think of Healy jumping Court in the Ireland pecking order?

    How about how long it took Healy to overtake Horan, despite him outperforming him week in, week out for months? Kilcoyne and Horan have something in common...


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    #8706
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Deano7788 wrote: »
    Healy had proved he was better than Court with his performances for Leinster; Kilcoyne hasn't as of yet. The 2 situations aren't even comparable.

    Not to mention he had 43 caps for Leinster before getting his Ireland debut, had been Leinsters starting LH for around a year and was part of a HEC winning side.

    EDIT: Just looked at Courts stats and he had 45 caps for Ulster when Healy got his debut, so it is even more different again.


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    #8707
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,756 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    jm08 wrote: »
    Well then, what did you think of Healy jumping Court in the Ireland pecking order?
    You're either a troll or a fool.

    Healy proved that he was a better option than Court after he started playing well for Leinster over a prolonged period of time.

    What has Kilcoyne done?


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    #8708
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    How about how long it took Healy to overtake Horan, despite him outperforming him week in, week out for months? Kilcoyne and Horan have something in common...

    Horan's last appearance for Ireland was against Wales to win the Grand Slam (March '09).

    He had a heart condition after that which nearly finished his career.


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    #8709
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    jm08 wrote: »
    Horan's last appearance for Ireland was against Wales to win the Grand Slam (March '09).

    He had a heart condition after that which nearly finished his career.

    Yeah, it took a heart condition to get ahead of him despite Healy outperforming him. Young players from Ulster, Leinster Connacht have to pay their dues while Kilcoyne is gifted an Irish jersey just like Murray, POM, Zebo.


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    #8710
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Yeah, it took a heart condition to get ahead of him despite Healy outperforming him. Young players from Ulster, Leinster Connacht have to pay their dues while Kilcoyne is gifted an Irish jersey just like Murray, POM, Zebo.


    I'm afraid great and all as Healy was around the pitch, we'd never have won a grand slam with his scrummaging. Seem to remember him giving away 5/6 penalties to Italy the following 6Ns. We nearly lost to Italy.

    Edit: you might also recall him getting destroyed in the scrum by Toulouse down there as well - and that was after that 6Ns.


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    #8711
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I really should have kept my mouth shut. It's amazing how some people are able to talk about this reasonably without getting all offended but yet others take a simple and logical post as some sort of affront that they need to attack.

    We're all supporting Ireland today I take it. Let's leave the provincial hand-bagging to one side for the moment eh?


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    #8712
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    jm08 wrote: »
    I'm afraid great and all as Healy was around the pitch, we'd never have won a grand slam with his scrummaging. Seem to remember him giving away 5/6 penalties to Italy the following 6Ns. We nearly lost to Italy.

    Yeah and in Kilcoyne's 6 starts have shown us his scrummaging is at an international level. Once again this is typical and embarrassing for you it's one rule when it suits a Munster player and the opposite when it suits a different Munster player. It's pathetic!


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    #8713
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Yeah and in Kilcoyne's 6 starts have shown us his scrummaging is at an international level. Once again this is typical and embarrassing for you it's one rule when it suits a Munster player and the opposite when it suits a different Munster player. It's pathetic!

    No, I don't think his scrummaging is of an international standard, but it never will, unless like Healy, he gets a chance (and like Healy got, a bit of patience). Lets hope he turns into half as good a prop as Healy is now rather than moaning about broadening the propping pool!


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    #8714
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Yeah, it took a heart condition to get ahead of him despite Healy outperforming him. Young players from Ulster, Leinster Connacht have to pay their dues while Kilcoyne is gifted an Irish jersey just like Murray, POM, Zebo.

    So Zebo got gifted an Irish jersey, because he got 1 cap on a tour, after being the top scoring Irish winger over the season. I think that's right isn't it, nobody scored more than him did they?


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    #8715
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    jm08 wrote: »
    No, I don't think his scrummaging is of an international standard, but it never will, unless like Healy, he gets a chance (and like Healy got, a bit of patience). Lets hope he turns into half as good a prop as Healy is now rather than moaning about broadening the propping pool!

    So is Kidney wrong to be so slow in giving Healy his chance or wrong to be so fast in promoting Kilcoyne? Anyone with a shred of logic cant argue both.


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    #8716
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    ed7890 wrote: »
    So Zebo got gifted an Irish jersey, because he got 1 cap on a tour, after being the top scoring Irish winger over the season. I think that's right isn't it, nobody scored more than him did they?

    Yes he was.


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    #8717
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Yes he was.

    Fair enough.

    It just strange to me that people laud Wales for giving youth a chance, by throwing in good young wingers like North and Cuthbert, and complain about Ireland being too conservative.

    Then when Ireland give a cap to the highest scoring young Irish winger, people still complain. Because he's from Munster.


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    #8718
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Hopefully our new coach won't

    Tom Court has been very hard done by. Seems Kidney is trying to make him a scapegoat for the England game last year

    Court has been a good servant for us, but there's no harm in trying another LH. Isn't the squad building that people are always complaining about wanting?

    Plus Court was turned inside out by the Glasgow TH in the HEC a few weeks back, he was being popped out of the scrum sideways. Kilcoyne hasn't been in trouble like that at all this season

    (Before anybody says Kilcoyne was destroyed by Mike Ross, he lost two penalties to him, thats all, which were soft enough. Overall he held his own)


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    #8719
    Tomtom364
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭Tomtom364


    ed7890 wrote: »
    Court has been a good servant for us, but there's no harm in trying another LH. Isn't the squad building that people are always complaining about wanting?

    Plus Court was turned inside out by the Edinburgh TH in the HEC a few weeks back, he was being popped out of the scrum sideways. Kilcoyne hasn't been in trouble like that at all this season

    (Before anybody says Kilcoyne was destroyed by Mike Ross, he lost two penalties to him, thats all, which were soft enough. Overall he held his own)

    what now?
    Ulster didnt play Edinburgh...


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    #8720
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    Tomtom364 wrote: »
    what now?
    Ulster didnt play Edinburgh...

    My bad, I meant Glasgow


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    #8721
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    ed7890 wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    It just strange to me that people laud Wales for giving youth a chance, by throwing in good young wingers like North and Cuthbert, and complain about Ireland being too conservative.

    Then when Ireland give a cap to the highest scoring young Irish winger, people still complain. Because he's from Munster.

    The year before Gilroy was the top try scorer and he didn't get a cap.

    It's not a problem with Zebo, it's a problem with the inconsistencies that favour Musnter players.


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    #8722
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    ed7890 wrote: »
    Fair enough.

    It just strange to me that people laud Wales for giving youth a chance, by throwing in good young wingers like North and Cuthbert, and complain about Ireland being too conservative.

    Then when Ireland give a cap to the highest scoring young Irish winger, people still complain. Because he's from Munster.

    It is the context of the selection that is the issue. Young Munster player performs decent to well over a short period they're fast tracked - Young player from another province performs very well over a longer period the excuses of "they need more experience", "they aren't rounded", "there's a flaw in their game", "it's too important a game", "the combination should be selected together" are trotted out.

    I'm going to take a leaf out of molloyjh's book and leave this for now. It's all about Ireland for the rest of the evening. Hopefully everyone performs well.


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    #8723
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Comparing Kilcoyne now to Healy when he was first capped is ****ing ludicrous.


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    #8724
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Anyone think that young Munster players have been getting a shot because they've been producing and giving gametime to the most young players over the last two years. Now that Ulster are producing the best young lads, they are getting a shot.

    Most of the complaining has been coming from Leinster fans and it can be easily iexplaned. Leinster don't have the young players coming through.


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    #8725
    ed7890
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ed7890


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The year before Gilroy was the top try scorer and he didn't get a cap.

    It's not a problem with Zebo, it's a problem with the inconsistencies that favour Musnter players.

    There was no summer tour that year, Gilory wasn't starting HEC games yet and Bowe and Fitz were injured this year which allowed Zebo to be brought. It's not necessarily a Munster bias thing, people reach for that way too much on here.


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    #8726
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Anyone think that young Munster players have been getting a shot because they've been producing and giving gametime to the most young players over the last two years. Now that Ulster are producing the best young lads, they are getting a shot.

    Most of the complaining has been coming from Leinster fans and it can be easily explained. Leinster don't have the young players coming through.


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    #8727
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,031 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Anyone think that young Munster players have been getting a shot because they've been producing and giving gametime to the most young players over the last two years. Now that Ulster are producing the best young lads, they are getting a shot.

    So there should be no comparison made between how slow Kidney was in dropping the old Munster guard for the younger Leinster players? Also, young Leinster, Connacht and Ulster players are still being brought through slower than their Munster counterparts.
    Most of the complaining has been coming from Leinster fans and it can be easily explained. Leinster don't have the young players coming through.

    The under 20's teams from the last few years tell a different story.


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    #8728
    goreyguy
    Registered Users Posts: 526 ✭✭✭goreyguy


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    .

    Leinster don't have the young players coming through.

    cute little theory you have there.


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    #8729
    Tomtom364
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭Tomtom364


    Foxtrol wrote: »


    The under 20's teams from the last few years tell a different story.


    Whos played in the Leinster Under 20's in the last few years thats broken into the Leinster team now and should be knocking on the Irealand door?


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    #8730
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    The under 20's teams from the last few years tell a different story.

    Can't put people into the national team on the back of U20s football though.

    Capt has a point - and its not really Leinster players that are getting overlooked. A few Ulster players have understandable grievances. Today's selection is pretty good though (Hurley aside) - it will be interesting to see if anyone is rewarded for a good performance next week.


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    #8731
    Glass Prison 1214
    Registered Users Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Glass Prison 1214


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Anyone think that young Munster players have been getting a shot because they've been producing and giving gametime to the most young players over the last two years. Now that Ulster are producing the best young lads, they are getting a shot.

    Most of the complaining has been coming from Leinster fans and it can be easily explained. Leinster don't have the young players coming through.

    Do you honestly believe Leinster dont have any young players coming through? Its widely accepted that Leinster have the best academy of all four provinces, what about Madigan? Every time i have seen him play he certainly has been producing the goods, and he has 59 appearences for Leinster. Alot more then Munsters youngsters....


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