School uniforms and dress codes

Fuinseog

what is it with teenagers deliberately disobeying school rules, available to read in black and white, by colouring their hair purple and not wearing a school uniform to school and then expecting sympathy.
they will usually do this around exam time.

what I find worrying is that in most cases their parents back them up, although it is a clear breech of school rules.



from todays indo

Patrick Kirby (17), from Bruff, Co Limerick, was told he could not complete his state exams with his fellow students at Ard Scoil Mhuire after finishing his first exams last Wednesday. The teenager's hairline has a pinkish/red streak which was dyed the week before the exams began.
"I came out the door after the first exam and Mr Clifford (the principal) was there waiting for me," Patrick said.
The student said he was brought to the principal's office where he claims he was ordered to shave his head before returning to school.
The following day, a supervisor was waiting for him and brought him to an empty classroom where he sat the subsequent exams in the company of only a supervisor. A spokesperson for Ard Scoil Mhuire said the issue was an internal school matter and that it had been dealt with within the school code of discipline. Patrick's mother, Veronica, said she was extremely upset following the incident.
"He didn't go around waving a gun or he wasn't on drugs or anything. He has a colour in his hair, that's about it," she said.
- Barry Duggan
Irish Independent

Nevyn

The thing is they are finished school term time is over, the school building is being used by the dept of education to run the state exams in.

I had the same crap doing my leaving cert 18 years ago when I didn't come in to sit them in my uniform.

Fuinseog

Thaedydal wrote: »

The thing is they are finished school term time is over, the school building is being used by the dept of education to run the state exams in.

I had the same crap doing my leaving cert 18 years ago when I didn't come in to sit them in my uniform.

the school is still responsible for them. rules are the rules. they will pull the same stunt during term.

Nevyn

The student is 17 sitting thier leaving cert, they have graduated from the school already and have finished thier schooling in the school, they are only using the school building to sit thier state exams.

Fuinseog

Thaedydal wrote: »

The student is 17 sitting thier leaving cert, they have graduated from the school already and have finished thier schooling in the school, they are only using the school building to sit thier state exams.

if I am using a building, any building, then I still have to abide by the rules. its politeness if nothing else.

these kind of people have nothing better to do, probably did not study and will use this kind of thing as an excuse for poor performance. it is to the best of my knowledge a very Irish thing. the media seems to be entertaining it.

looksee

It does seem ridiculous, and I personally have no problem with coloured hair, or any other expressions of individuality (though I can't get enthusiastic about piercings, but that's just me).

However the students signed up to the school rules, and the last place you need distraction and exhibitionism is in the exam hall, so just wait the couple of weeks till after the exam and you can do anything you like with your hair or anything else. And you can go on to college decorated in any way you wish.

On the whole I think school uniform and appearance rules are a good idea. They maintain an equality that helps to avoid dress and jewellery competitions and focusses on learning. It also means that students don't feel the peer pressure to have piercings and tattoos, It is possible to get hair colour that will wash out, for social occasions.

Nevyn

Fuinseog wrote: »

if I am using a building, any building, then I still have to abide by the rules. its politeness if nothing else.

So anyone who used the school building out side of term time who is not an enrolled student of the school should wear the school uniform while doing so?

Fuinseog wrote: »

these kind of people have nothing better to do, probably did not study and will use this kind of thing as an excuse for poor performance. it is to the best of my knowledge a very Irish thing. the media seems to be entertaining it.

What kind of people are those?

Are you seriously saying that a person who has a streak of colour in their hair
can't be a diligent student or do well in exams?

looksee wrote: »

It does seem ridiculous, and I personally have no problem with coloured hair, or any other expressions of individuality (though I can't get enthusiastic about piercings, but that's just me).

However the students signed up to the school rules, and the last place you need distraction and exhibitionism is in the exam hall, so just wait the couple of weeks till after the exam and you can do anything you like with your hair or anything else. And you can go on to college decorated in any way you wish.

On the whole I think school uniform and appearance rules are a good idea. They maintain an equality that helps to avoid dress and jewellery competitions and focusses on learning. It also means that students don't feel the peer pressure to have piercings and tattoos, It is possible to get hair colour that will wash out, for social occasions.

I am not anti school uniform at all, I agree with them for all the reasons you have listed but during term time and for those who are students of the school.

Leaving cert students have graduated, the exams are outside of term time,
and the school is being used by the dept of education as an exam hall it's that simple.

Ickle Magoo

Fuinseog wrote: »

if I am using a building, any building, then I still have to abide by the rules. its politeness if nothing else.

Next time you go to vote at a school, I expect to see you in full uniform...

Fuinseog wrote: »

these kind of people have nothing better to do, probably did not study and will use this kind of thing as an excuse for poor performance. it is to the best of my knowledge a very Irish thing. the media seems to be entertaining it.

Nonsense. The people with nothing better to do are the ones getting their knickers in a twist about what colour peoples hair is, as if that has any bearing whatsoever on their ability to complete an exam...I got my tongue and nose pierced and had a pink streak in my hair when I sat my school exams - I got seven credits - crass generalisation fail.

Permabear

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AudreyHepburn

Thaedydal wrote: »

The thing is they are finished school term time is over, the school building is being used by the dept of education to run the state exams in.

I had the same crap doing my leaving cert 18 years ago when I didn't come in to sit them in my uniform.

Schools have rules and until you are no longer a student, which to me is when your exams are over, you have to obey them as you agreed to do when first entered the school.

If it's only a colour why do people get so het up when asked to remove or change.

Honestly is it that much of a problem change for the duration of the exam and then change it back again after?

The things people complain about!

Fuinseog

mobile phones are another issue. most schools categorically state that they are not to be used during class and if they are they will be confiscated. it has happened that parents threatened to sue when the phones were confiscated. what part of the rules do these people not understand?

prinz

Fuinseog wrote: »

what is it with teenagers deliberately disobeying school rules, available to read in black and white, by colouring their hair purple and not wearing a school uniform to school and then expecting sympathy.they will usually do this around exam time.

This links in with your other thread about over-protective parents. They will automatically jump to take the side of little Johnny/Mary.

What on earth is a hairgate?

Fuinseog

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Schools have rules and until you are no longer a student, which to me is when your exams are over, you have to obey them as you agreed to do when first entered the school.

If it's only a colour why do people get so het up when asked to remove or change.

Honestly is it that much of a problem change for the duration of the exam and then change it back again after?

The things people complain about!

the parents very often have nothing better to do or are trying to get revenge because they themselves had problems in school.

it not just working class people who are at this but nouveau riche as well.

there was a school in galway last year where the pupil was told to get a haircut as it did not conform to the school rules. rather than do this the pupil changed school and the parents brought the school to court. I think the haircut would have been cheaper.

Starburst85

donegalfella wrote: »

If the school has a stated policy requiring students to observe the school dress code for the duration of exams, that seems quite reasonable to me.

I agree, all students sitting exams must abide by school policy. Even some company's have dress codes which most ppl sign into by entering a contract which means they must abide by this dress code, if not, they are subject to be spoken to and if ignored can lead to warnings, disciplinary...etc

It's not going to hurt anyone including the person themselves if there hair isnt dyed for the exam, they should wait till after it is over.

Fuinseog

bluewolf wrote: »

What on earth is a hairgate?

something I just coinned in relation to the indo article. its a problem nearly every year. the other classic example is when the pupils are told to wear their uniforms and some decide to disobey and then quick up a fuss.
some people don't want to obey simple rules and then try to depict themselves as victims.only in ireland.

Fuinseog

prinz wrote: »

This links in with your other thread about over-protective parents. They will automatically jump to take the side of little Johnny/Mary.

it does, but what have they got to achieve? maybe the parents are not doing so well in life and want to strike out to show they have some power.

people go to court over this and fork out thousands. Is it really worth it?

Fuinseog

Starburst85 wrote: »

donegalfella wrote: »

If the school has a stated policy requiring students to observe the school dress code for the duration of exams, that seems quite reasonable to me.

I agree, all students sitting exams must abide by school policy. Even some company's have dress codes which most ppl sign into by entering a contract which means they must abide by this dress code, if not, they are subject to be spoken to and if ignored can lead to warnings, disciplinary...etc

It's not going to hurt anyone including the person themselves if there hair isnt dyed for the exam, they should wait till after it is over.

unfortunately the tone of the Indo article suggests that the principal was OTT.

Nevyn

donegalfella wrote: »

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The last day of school, the last day of term it's clearly defined.

donegalfella wrote: »

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If the school policy explicted spells out that to sit state exams as student of the school you need to wear you uniform fair enough.

In my day we argued we had finished school were no longer currently students and it was upheld.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Can't say I agree with the comments either they are spurious.

Fuinseog wrote: »

mobile phones are another issue. most schools categorically state that they are not to be used during class and if they are they will be confiscated. it has happened that parents threatened to sue when the phones were confiscated. what part of the rules do these people not understand?

Phones should be checked in at the start of school and checked out afterwards.

Fuinseog wrote: »

the parents very often have nothing better to do or are trying to get revenge because they themselves had problems in school.

:rolleyes:

Fuinseog wrote: »

there was a school in galway last year where the pupil was told to get a haircut as it did not conform to the school rules. rather than do this the pupil changed school and the parents brought the school to court. I think the haircut would have been cheaper.

There is a case for that under gender discrimination and equality laws several schools have had this happen over the years and I made sure that the school my children are attending will not seek to expel my son if he grows his hair long which he has expressed an interest in doing so as they would not seek to expel my daughter for the same thing.

Starburst85

Another one that springs to mind when I was at school was you were only allowed wear runners during PE which was ignored and no excessive jewelery such as big gold/ silver hoopy ear rings (which you could easily swing out of), knuckleduster type rings, more than 2 ear rings in one ear...aww im sure the list goes on. However, the aim was to have a neat appearance...this was diobeyed by some and they were hauled in...if it was there second offence in the same day, the jewelery was taken off them and a fee for each piece had to be paid to retrieve it...wonder where all that money was spent

prinz

Thaedydal wrote: »

The last day of school, the last day of term it's clearly defined..

Except that's not the case in a lot of schools. I know my school had an official graduation date after the exams.

Fuinseog

Starburst85 wrote: »

Another one that springs to mind when I was at school was you were only allowed wear runners during PE which was ignored and no excessive jewelery such as big gold/ silver hoopy ear rings (which you could easily swing out of), knuckleduster type rings, more than 2 ear rings in one ear...aww im sure the list goes on. However, the aim was to have a neat appearance...this was diobeyed by some and they were hauled in...if it was there second offence in the same day, the jewelery was taken off them and a fee for each piece had to be paid to retrieve it...wonder where all that money was spent

some schools are strict on this some are not. if they crack down on minor tihings major problems will not be an issue.
after school they will go for a job interview and if they go in looking like something the cat dragged in then its curtains.
pink hair may be a sign of their individuality but many employers won't entertain it.

Ickle Magoo

Fuinseog wrote: »

some schools are strict on this some are not. if they crack down on minor tihings major problems will not be an issue.
after school they will go for a job interview and if they go in looking like something the cat dragged in then its curtains.
pink hair may be a sign of their individuality but many employers won't entertain it.

The majority of students go onto further education rather than work after school so employers aren't relevant...my best pal had a nose ring and dreadlocks, didn't seem to bother Oxbridge whom he had the pick of and he's certainly never had an issue with employment, neither has my other punky friend who went on to med school.

I think uniforms for senior pupils is a bit of an outdated concept, tbh, we don't have university uniforms and there is some pretty hot and heavy self discipline and learning going on there.

Fuinseog

Phones should be checked in at the start of school and checked out afterwards.



:rolleyes:


There is a case for that under gender discrimination and equality laws several schools have had this happen over the years and I made sure that the school my children are attending will not seek to expel my son if he grows his hair long which he has expressed an interest in doing so as they would not seek to expel my daughter for the same thing.[/QUOTE]

I do not know what you expect to say about the smiley. it simply wins every argument.


who do you propose check in the phones? its not prison and people have better things to be doing.

the gender equality issue is something that people lose a lot of sleep over because boys and girls are supposed to be treated the same.
it cropped up with the issue of bling ( a status symbol above the CHAV community) where parents claimed it was sexual inequality as the girls were alowed to wear earrings. in the end it was decreed that they could wear bling but had to have one in each year so they looked even more ridiculous.

prinz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think uniforms for senior pupils is a bit of an outdated concept, tbh....

You'd be suprised. In places were traditionally there haven't been uniforms for schools they are considering introducing them.

Fuinseog

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The majority of students go onto further education rather than work after school so employers aren't relevant...my best pal had a nose ring and dreadlocks, didn't seem to bother Oxbridge whom he had the pick of and he's certainly never had an issue with employment, neither has my other punky friend who went on to med school.

I think uniforms for senior pupils is a bit of an outdated concept, tbh, we don't have university uniforms and there is some pretty hot and heavy self discipline and learning going on there.

I was referring more to part time jobs and to this country, Oxbridge presumably being in the UK.
a 17 year old wants a job in a reatuarant, supermacs or newsagent. is neat, 'normal' dress a good idea for the interview or not?

Ickle Magoo

prinz wrote: »

You'd be suprised. In places were traditionally there haven't been uniforms for schools they are considering introducing them.

Just for senior pupils?

Fuinseog

prinz wrote: »

You'd be suprised. In places were traditionally there haven't been uniforms for schools they are considering introducing them.

kids want something to identify themselves with their school. i know a school where there is no uniform but absolutely everyone wears the school hockey, rubgy polo or hoody, which is a type of uniform.

soem schools have a summer uniform consisting of slacks and a polo.

Permabear

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Ickle Magoo

Fuinseog wrote: »

I was referring more to part time jobs and to this country, Oxbridge presumably being in the UK.
a 17 year old wants a job in a reatuarant, supermacs or newsagent. is neat, 'normal' dress a good idea for the interview or not?

Yes, cambridge and oxford are in the UK.

Why are you moving the goal posts to jobs now, whether someone want to have a particular look for interview is up to them, I had a part-time job while at school and worked all through uni & never had an issue - strangely enough, employers seemed to be far more concerned with my ability to do the job than whether I had a pink streak in my hair. It seems to be more a thing that the ultra conservatives or older generations take issue with.

Ickle Magoo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Fishnet stockings? Not to take it to extremes or anything, eh? It is possible not to have compulsory uniform and still have a dress code - that's what my school had. Uniform for the first four years, smart casual within the dress code for the last two.

Permabear

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Valmont

My secondary school had a great system. From first to transition year a partial uniform was required and after that it was up to the student. The rationale being that the fifth and sixth year students were of the age that they could dress themselves. I moved to this non-uniformed all gender school from a strict catholic boys school and it was a very liberating experience.

Side note: I found that male students (including myself) tended to misbehave less when there were girls in the classroom.

Eve_Dublin

Fuinseog wrote: »

if I am using a building, any building, then I still have to abide by the rules. its politeness if nothing else.

these kind of people have nothing better to do, probably did not study and will use this kind of thing as an excuse for poor performance. it is to the best of my knowledge a very Irish thing. the media seems to be entertaining it.

No other country that I´ve encountered is as strict with the uniform dress code for teenagers boarding on adulthood. I´d just turned 19 doing my Leaving and I felt like an idiot wearing a kilt down to my ankles (school policy) and a woolly jumper everyday.

I know I´m making a massive generalisation here but it was the students who tried to stand out at school with pink hair, piercings, fellas with long hair were the ones who were the hard working "nerdy" types at school and generally kept their heads down and caused very little trouble, who were the ones who went on to the best unis and are the most successful now career-wise. Not saying there is a direct correlation but that was just a personal observation.

Perhaps Irish school need to concentrate on the REAL trouble makers (the popular bullies who stick to the conservative dress code) instead of focusing on something so trivial and silly.

Permabear

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wonderfulname

The issue here, as I see it is not the students disregard for school rules. He broke them, end of, he should receive some form of punishment.

However that punishment should not be in anyway related to State examinations.

Remember in 2006 Tullamore College prevented two of their students from sitting the junior cert for cutting their hair, wait for it, too short? It should not have been the schools right to do so.

Give them detention, make them sit in a classroom during breaks or exams in subjects they don't study, but don't mess with something of actual importance, its only hair!

Nevyn

The thing is the school has fúck all hold over them as they are finished with the school and are doing the leaving cert and can not implent those types of punishment.

The school can only seperate them using the excuse that they are a distraction or as was treathed to me refuse to let you use the school to sit the exams and the dept of education as to then find a place in another exam centre in the area.

Permabear

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metrovelvet

Doesn't one have to finish and pass exams to finish with school? If you do not aren't you still in school?

Permabear

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Eliot Rosewater

Back when I was in secondary school, one of the my peers got a "step" haircut whereby the bottom of his head was shaved in a kind of "hair tattoo" design. From the opposite end of a room one might have mistaken it for the product of a shoddy barber; it didn't really stand out at all. He was still reprimanded for it though, and told not to get it again.

When students are going to school in uniform (as I did) and doing the exact same course work, there's very little room for individuality. The system of secondary school suited me because it was focused on academics and routine, but I think I'm in a minority. I don't think the current "one size fits all" system does justice to many adolescents. Quite simply, everyone has different strengths. Just because your forté is dancing or drawing and not maths or literature does not diminish you as a human being. But in an educational system geared primarily towards academia, I feel that that perception is out there.

Sir Ken Robinson has a brilliant video on TED in which he discusses this kind of thing. Though not about uniforms, it discusses the lack of individual potential in our schools.

Chuchoter

Because the rules are stupid. Its not distracting anyone and its you're own hair. If you're sitting in the middle of an maths class and you can't do it because you're staring at someones blue hair the problem is with you not the person with the hair. I think for junior cycle fine, because you're a child, but senior cycle, come on like we're big enough and bold enough to look the way we want to. Especially when the uniforms are impractical (heavy wool skirts/jumpers in June, I mean come on). You look ridiculous.

Permabear

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metrovelvet

donegalfella wrote: »

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I dunno. Uniforms take the pressure off parents to buy their daughters juicy couture and the risk off their son's lives if they show up in Nike's and coming home barefoot because he got mugged.

Nevyn

If a student goes back to resit the leaving cert they really do not slot back into a regular 6th year class, they either do a condensed program in the school if it offers a repeat class and most of them do not expect a school uniform or they do it in another educational facility like youthreach or a fee paying private school like the institute where again there is no uniform required.

Last day of term before the exams begin is the last day of 'school' for 6th years and my school had a graduation ceremony and so do all the local schools here abouts.

prinz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Just for senior pupils?

No. For all students. It's actualy becoming a popular initiative in parts of Germany for example. In my OH's home town they are bringing in uniforms with widespread support in the community. Uniforms in schools in Germany would be very rare, yet they are seen as a progression. It's just another example of the Irish people trying to be 'liberal and progressive' by following a course of actions that many societies have tried before us and are actually rowing back on.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It seems to be more a thing that the ultra conservatives or older generations take issue with.

This is increasingly the default argument line with many on boards these days. I do not work with or for 'ultra conservatives or older generations' yet a professional 'look' is expected and required by my employers. It's getting tiresome that every single issue seems to come down to almost teenage rebellion generalisations because life is far more complex than that.

Ickle Magoo

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dunno. Uniforms take the pressure off parents to buy their daughters juicy couture and the risk off their son's lives if they show up in Nike's and coming home barefoot because he got mugged.

I never buy that argument for uniforms. Even while wearing uniform it's abundantly clear who is or isn't affluent from the state of their uniform to the name on their coat, their bag, shoes, hair, the car the folks drop them off in or indeed, some pupils drive themselves to school in. I think it's a total myth that uniform = class equality or class anonymity.

A dress code covers the whole mugged for trainers thing (Yikes! Thankfully, I've never known anyone that happened to :eek: ). We weren't allowed to wear trainers outside of gym class - I wore ox-blood or purple steel toe cap doc boots if I remember correctly.

prinz

Thaedydal wrote: »

Last day of term before the exams begin is the last day of 'school' for 6th years and my school had a graduation ceremony and so do all the local schools here abouts.

There is no national official 'last day' applicable to all schools for all 6th years.

Ickle Magoo

prinz wrote: »

No. For all students. It's actualy becoming a popular initiative in parts of Germany for example. In my OH's home town they are bringing in uniforms with widespread support in the community. Uniforms in schools in Germany would be very rare, yet they are seen as a progression. It's just another example of the Irish people trying to be 'liberal and progressive' by following a course of actions that many societies have tried before us and are actually rowing back on.

I have no issue with uniform, I think it's unnecessary for older students - that was what my post referred to and what I'm still referring to. What schools in germany wish to do with regards to introducing uniforms is up to them, I have no idea why you think giving pupils old enough to leave school and home a bit of lee-way with how they dress and some comfortable clothes to sit in for hours while taking exams is nowt but liberal and progressive waffle - I think it's just common sense. *shrug*

prinz wrote: »

This is increasingly the default argument line with many on boards these days. I do not work with or for 'ultra conservatives or older generations' yet a professional 'look' is expected and required by my employers. It's getting tiresome that every single issue seems to come down to almost teenage rebellion generalisations because life is far more complex than that.

Employers aren't school, we could equally state there are no uniforms for uni, so aren't they totally pointless - or perhaps we should introduce uniforms to uni's too? Because surely these people won't know how to dress or act when they try to gain employment?

Regarding conservatism - the only people I hear going on about stuff like pink streaks in hair or uniforms being great, horrified at calling teachers by their first names or any of the general "wah, wah, young people now a days" rants are either fairly well on in life or have a fairly conservative outlook - you may think that's tiresome but I'm afraid it doesn't stop it being my personal experience.

prinz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think it's just common sense. *shrug*

Such 'common sense' that it's actually being reversed in some places? Personally I think uniforms make common sense *shrug*.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Employers aren't school, we could equally state there are no uniforms for uni, so aren't they totally pointless - or perhaps we should introduce uniforms to uni's too?

So it's ok for employers to wish to present a certain image? But not for schools?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Regarding conservatism - the only people I hear going on about stuff like pink streaks in hair or uniforms being great, horrified at calling teachers by their first names or any of the general "wah, wah, young people now a days" rants are either fairly well on in life or have a fairly conservative outlook - you may think that's tiresome but I'm afraid it doesn't stop it being my personal experience.

Funnily enough I had the same experience back in the day when I queried the need for uniforms etc. Then I grew out of it. Incidentally my own hair has been bleached, dyed green and dyed blue. I managed to do it on my own time and I knew full well that it wouldn't be welcomed during school time. Being conservative is irrelevant when it comes to things like abiding by say school rules which are there for everyone to see.

wonderfulname

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I never buy that argument for uniforms. Even while wearing uniform it's abundantly clear who is or isn't affluent from the state of their uniform to the name on their coat, their bag, shoes, hair, the car the folks drop them off in or indeed, some pupils drive themselves to school in. I think it's a total myth that uniform = class equality or class anonymity.

In my first school it was way more obvious who was better off in uniform than out of it. The majority of teens dress out of Pennys on their own time. In school mammy and daddy pay, and you can see the differences, e.g. old white shirt vs. new white shirt vs. white shirt with tiny Tommy Hilfiger logo on the shirt pocket, thats one of many many examples.
With regards to the bullying argument that goes around, everybody knows whos in what click anyway, the clothes they wear isn't going to make a difference.
And the stealing of clothes thing, thats got nothing to do with the nike shoes, thats the child being bullied, it would be a part of a long string of incidents. Said child needs help.. if said child exists.

And the professional look thing.. If i remember rightly the uniform code for 6th years in my first school was simply "appropriate, smart attire", many of those 6th years dressed themselves better than most low ranking office workers, surely learning to dress yourself in that manner makes more sense than a fixed uniform?

On a side note I remember a girl who was a serious punk who used to come in with her kilt slashed and held together with chains, a huge collection of button badges and patches on her jumper, and those knee high boots with all the buckles...
And the school couldn't do a thing because it was perfectly in line with their uniform code, legend!