Untouchables

dmcc13

There seems to be a culture within Irish sport of picking people based not on quality or talent but on loyalty and giving it their 'all', whatever that means. The list of players picked by irish teams who should not have been playing for ireland because of lack abillity are; Kevin Kilbane, Peter Stringer ( his pass is a fling people!!a fling), Girvan Dempsey ( being solid under a high ball and being able too kick is not enough), Mick O'Driscoll, Leo Cullen, Tomás O'Leary (maybe has abillity but absoluetly no rugby intelligence) Simon Easterby, Paul McShane, Alan Kernaghan, Glenn Whelan. This disease in irish sports has hindered the careers of some of our most talented players- David Wallace, Denis Hickie, Geordan Murphy, Andy Reid, Eoin Reddan (prob past his best now)...stop making exuses,stop rewarding loyalty over talent and please god irish people wake up and realise the talent we have!!!!

mr_edge_to_you

stringer is an incredibly talented player. i think he is a class act and is still a better player than o'leary and reddan.

bleg

I completely and utterly disagree with every single point you make in that post.

bacon&cabbage

dmcc13 wrote: »

There seems to be a culture within Irish sport of picking people based not on quality or talent but on loyalty and giving it their 'all', whatever that means. The list of players picked by irish teams who should not have been playing for ireland because of lack abillity are; Kevin Kilbane, Peter Stringer ( his pass is a fling people!!a fling), Girvan Dempsey ( being solid under a high ball and being able too kick is not enough), Mick O'Driscoll, Leo Cullen, Tomás O'Leary (maybe has abillity but absoluetly no rugby intelligence) Simon Easterby, Paul McShane, Alan Kernaghan, Glenn Whelan. This disease in irish sports has hindered the careers of some of our most talented players- David Wallace, Denis Hickie, Geordan Murphy, Andy Reid, Eoin Reddan (prob past his best now)...stop making exuses,stop rewarding loyalty over talent and please god irish people wake up and realise the talent we have!!!!

with the exception of Paul Mc Shane, I also disagree

d'Oracle

dmcc13 wrote: »

There seems to be a culture within Irish sport of picking people based not on quality or talent but on loyalty and giving it their 'all', whatever that means. The list of players picked by irish teams who should not have been playing for ireland because of lack abillity are; Kevin Kilbane, Peter Stringer ( his pass is a fling people!!a fling), Girvan Dempsey ( being solid under a high ball and being able too kick is not enough), Mick O'Driscoll, Leo Cullen, Tomás O'Leary (maybe has abillity but absoluetly no rugby intelligence) Simon Easterby, Paul McShane, Alan Kernaghan, Glenn Whelan. This disease in irish sports has hindered the careers of some of our most talented players- David Wallace, Denis Hickie, Geordan Murphy, Andy Reid, Eoin Reddan (prob past his best now)...stop making exuses,stop rewarding loyalty over talent and please god irish people wake up and realise the talent we have!!!!

I think this is nonsense.

Arrogance

Dempsey, the 4th highest try scorer in Irish rugby history and widely regarded as having one of the most intelligent positioning in world rugby is only there because hes good under high ball and kicking?

CatFromHue

girvan dempsey is our 4th all....ah i see arrogance has got there before me
simon easterby sure looked out of his depth in the 2005 lions tour...oh wait!

Arrogance

Since when is Leo Cullen untouchable?

If anything he was criminally excluded from the 6N after 2 incredible performances in the opening games.

anonymous_joe

Your idea has a bit of merit, but some of the lads you mentioned were a bit questionable...

wonton

although i disagree, you did get it your all, so fair play to you op.

Amazotheamazing

Arrogance wrote: »

Since when is Leo Cullen untouchable?

If anything he was criminally excluded from the 6N after 2 incredible performances in the opening games.

The only thing incredible about his performances in the six nations is that they seem to have grown in stature as the weeks pass. He was ok, not awful, not better than either POC or DOC, hence, he was dropped for them.

While there is some sort of merit in the OP's post, (why is Hayes on this tour for example?) a lot of the players mentioned shouldn't be there.

Blobby George

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Your idea has a bit of merit, but some of the lads you mentioned were a bit questionable...

Ya, true enough. He should have included D'arcy.

profitius

The OP has a point.

Young players in this country have to wait for the older players to retire or get injured before they get a chance. Theres no such thing as judging them on their talent. Thats what Australians do for example. They pick players out at a young age - like James O'Connor - and develop them. In Ireland the young players have to que up and wait for their turn.

Its bad habit that Irish rugby has and its something the tri nation teams wouldn't do. We put too much emphasis on experiance and not enough on talent. Look at Munster the team are on the decline now and they'll have to blood alot of younger players at once because they failed to read the signs.

anonymous_joe

Blobby George wrote: »

Ya, true enough. He should have included D'arcy.

D'Arcy's had a good season. Final of the ML. Semi-final of the HC. He's not a passenger.

As an example though, this 6 Nations, Paul O'Connell should have been dropped, and Cullen and O'Callaghan allowed play together. O'Connell was not playing as well as either of that pair. We need to make sure we're capable of dropping and recalling.

profitius wrote: »

The OP has a point.

Young players in this country have to wait for the older players to retire or get injured before they get a chance. Theres no such thing as judging them on their talent. Thats what Australians do for example. They pick players out at a young age - like James O'Connor - and develop them. In Ireland the young players have to que up and wait for their turn.

Its bad habit that Irish rugby has and its something the tri nation teams wouldn't do. We put too much emphasis on experiance and not enough on talent. Look at Munster the team are on the decline now and they'll have to blood alot of younger players at once because they failed to read the signs.

In the Tri-Nations you play multiple games. So if you've been fcuked around, you can take risks, etc.

We always try and win games. It's not always the right approach.

In fairness though, guys like Kearney, Fitz, Earls, McLaughlin, Sexton and so on have gotten game time for us in recent seasons. We're improving in this regard, but still have work to do.

thehighground

profitius wrote: »

The OP has a point.

Young players in this country have to wait for the older players to retire or get injured before they get a chance. Theres no such thing as judging them on their talent. Thats what Australians do for example. They pick players out at a young age - like James O'Connor - and develop them. In Ireland the young players have to que up and wait for their turn.

Its bad habit that Irish rugby has and its something the tri nation teams wouldn't do. We put too much emphasis on experiance and not enough on talent. Look at Munster the team are on the decline now and they'll have to blood alot of younger players at once because they failed to read the signs.

Any player who has been good enough has been picked out. Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe (who flopped initially) and has now turned into a fine player. Tomas O'Leary is another one who was more or less thrown in at the deep end. Only one who got a bit blocked is Sexton at Leinster.

I can't think of anyone for Munster who deserves to progress who is being blocked by anyone else. Most of them get their chance through injury and sink or swim anyway.

LeeroyJones

dmcc13 wrote: »

There seems to be a culture within Irish sport of picking people based not on quality or talent but on loyalty and giving it their 'all', whatever that means. The list of players picked by irish teams who should not have been playing for ireland because of lack abillity are; Kevin Kilbane, Peter Stringer ( his pass is a fling people!!a fling), Girvan Dempsey ( being solid under a high ball and being able too kick is not enough), Mick O'Driscoll, Leo Cullen, Tomás O'Leary (maybe has abillity but absoluetly no rugby intelligence) Simon Easterby, Paul McShane, Alan Kernaghan, Glenn Whelan. This disease in irish sports has hindered the careers of some of our most talented players- David Wallace, Denis Hickie, Geordan Murphy, Andy Reid, Eoin Reddan (prob past his best now)...stop making exuses,stop rewarding loyalty over talent and please god irish people wake up and realise the talent we have!!!!

I think you undermined your argument by listing Stringer, Dempsey, Cullen, O'Leary, Easterbuy and, in football terms, Whelan. Therefore you have four players to back up your argument, 3 of which are footballers. So in this forum, I don't think your argument holds.

dmcc13

Arrogance wrote: »

Dempsey, the 4th highest try scorer in Irish rugby history and widely regarded as having one of the most intelligent positioning in world rugby is only there because hes good under high ball and kicking?

Name a fullback who is not good positionally?? This is a misnomer. Dempsey was good positionally because he never risked entering the line unless it was outside a winger flopping over the line. Don't get me wrong at provincial level he was acceptable but a full back who never cut a line through the centres or who attacked the blind side as first receiver should never have started ahead of Geordan Murphy EVER!! And can you remember one of his trys that was created by himself? Not one because he didn't have the abillity.

dmcc13

LeeroyJones wrote: »

I think you undermined your argument by listing Stringer, Dempsey, Cullen, O'Leary, Easterbuy and, in football terms, Whelan. Therefore you have four players to back up your argument, 3 of which are footballers. So in this forum, I don't think your argument holds.

Your correct, but it was just a general wandering i had regarding football and rugby while watching o'leary starting before reddan again. Watching irish rugby and football has continually left me bemused towards the publics patience with journeymen who are not good enough to represent our country.

dmcc13

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

stringer is an incredibly talented player. i think he is a class act and is still a better player than o'leary and reddan.

Stringer is a trier i will give him that, but he is not a good rugby player. His decision making is extremely flawed, his running game non existant, his box kicking is good but rarely used correctly, his pass is a fling and very hit and miss and his defence is adequate but because of his size people seem to think its amazing.

dmcc13

CatFromHue wrote: »

girvan dempsey is our 4th all....ah i see arrogance has got there before me
simon easterby sure looked out of his depth in the 2005 lions tour...oh wait!

I actually wasn't sure about easterby because i have seen him play well a few times, for llianelli he has been immense, but for so long he was completely annonymous for ireland and although it was excused away by his supporters as "dark arts" he was usually seen at pillar one, which is a joke for a number 6. As for dempsey, he is exactly what i dislike in full backs and incapsulates for me the different mindset between ireland and southern hemisphere sides(also possibly france aswell) he couldnt pass a rugby ball!!seriously, how how many people saw dempsey spin a ball out wide whilst running??? Any full back who trails on THE OUTSIDE of a winger is not good positionally, and the fact he is fourth highest try scorer says more about Shane Horgan, Denis Hickie and Brian O'Driscolls creativity then it does about any explosive lines, exceptional step or even maybe any kind of thought to attacking a blind side!! He was a world class defensive full back and the rest was a complete waste. Imagine Murphy,Hickie, O'Driscoll, Darcy,Horgan playing regularly leading up to the last world cup!!

dmcc13

Arrogance wrote: »

Since when is Leo Cullen untouchable?

If anything he was criminally excluded from the 6N after 2 incredible performances in the opening games.

Im sorry but being good in a lineout does not excuse having no impact in the tight....second rows have to have at least a small bit of power. In fairness too Leo he is not the only irish second row who lacks power but he is at the very bottom of the power list.

hardCopy

I'd imagine we would have conceded a lot more tries if Dempsey got less game time

dmcc13

hardCopy wrote: »

I'd imagine we would have conceded a lot more tries if Dempsey got less game time

Its interesting you make that point...it made me wander on murphys short comings...his missed tackles on heymans and others and i just realised although these were glaring errors they were all in the defensive line and dempsey was never in the defensive line...which is fine except i can think of many occasions,against wales and france especially, when our defensive line was dog legged. How many times do you see kearney covering inside our winger in the defensive line, its all the time!!!Dempsey hid in international rugby,its as simple as that, you dont make errors if you hide.

mr_edge_to_you

I think Peter Stringer is one of the finest passers of a rugby ball in international rugby. i remember hearing an interview with BoDs father on Marian Finucane a while back and he made reference to the significance of Stringers absence in relation to how the Irish backs play. The speed of his pass in unreal. When you have players like BoD who are not as fast as they used to be the extra milliseconds that speed buys are vital.

I think Stringer was made a scapegoat by some (BoD playing a major role with his on pitch tantrum/outburst) when a pass was intercepted in France RWC 2007.

I remember as well how he used to command the Munster pack when they undestructable a few years back.

I love the way his size was never an issue. He always put himself on the line. His ankle taps saved Ireland numerous times.

Like I said before an incredibly talented rugby player.

He made two massive breaks in careers which were of MAJOR important to Irish Rugby. One against Biarritz in H Cup final and second against Scotland in 2009 Six Nations.

(Personally I hate the sight of a scrum half box-kicking).

chris85

Strings has been a servant and i believe he should be on the bench for ireland purely because he provides a different style that no one else brings, his quick passing is second none. He controls the pack and reads the game fantastically. TOL and reddan arent as good passing but bring more physicality.

Leo cullen has by no means been untouchable. I think its terrible he wasnt brought on tour yet he has had a great season and is an excellent leader which we need in the pack at the moment especially with Heaslip out now.

Dempsey is an excellent player and has been a servant. great player. Murphy is brilliant also but neither would have been as good without the other to compete so well with.

dmcc13

hardCopy wrote: »

I'd imagine we would have conceded a lot more tries if Dempsey got less game time

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

I think Peter Stringer is one of the finest passers of a rugby ball in international rugby. i remember hearing an interview with BoDs father on Marian Finucane a while back and he made reference to the significance of Stringers absence in relation to how the Irish backs play. The speed of his pass in unreal. When you have players like BoD who are not as fast as they used to be the extra milliseconds that speed buys are vital.

I think Stringer was made a scapegoat by some (BoD playing a major role with his on pitch tantrum/outburst) when a pass was intercepted in France RWC 2007.

I remember as well how he used to command the Munster pack when they undestructable a few years back.

I love the way his size was never an issue. He always put himself on the line. His ankle taps saved Ireland numerous times.

Like I said before an incredibly talented rugby player.

He made two massive breaks in careers which were of MAJOR important to Irish Rugby. One against Biarritz in H Cup final and second against Scotland in 2009 Six Nations.

(Personally I hate the sight of a scrum half box-kicking).

Theres a few things you mention in your reply which highlight for me why stringer is a bad rugby player.

Most glaringly was the very fact that biarritz though so little of him as a rugby player that they didn't bother defendiing the blindside against him!! This has been done by opposition teams for years!!!

Secondly his ankle taps and covering tackles!!! These are highlighted by the irish public BECAUSE of his size, practically evry scrum half makes these sort of defensive tackles as they use sh's as sweepers, the fact he makes ankle taps whilst oleary hammers them highlights his inadequacies again!!

And lastly his pass!!! long before odriscolls outburst i have been tearing my hair out in regards to his pass, a good scrum half will put a ball a foot in front and just below chest height of first reciever at a horizontal angle to help the reciver revert into passing position straight away. Stringer has no back swing, meaning he generates his speed (and it is very fast) by fling the ball straight from the ground at a vertical postion, this is why his pass is so inaccurate and hit and miss. But the reason why father odriscolls argument does not stack up (and i remeber the same interview funnily enough) is beacuse it ships pressure, how many times have you seen ogara run latterally (arse facing camera) trying to firstly control stringers fling and then trying to realign to a passing position?? Its one of the reasons for the irish back line miss fired on more then one occasion.

yimrsg

dmcc13 wrote: »

There seems to be a culture within Irish sport of picking people based not on quality or talent but on loyalty and giving it their 'all', whatever that means.

The list of players picked by irish teams who should not have been playing for ireland because of lack abillity are; Kevin Kilbane, Peter Stringer ( his pass is a fling people!!a fling), Girvan Dempsey ( being solid under a high ball and being able too kick is not enough), Mick O'Driscoll, Leo Cullen, Tomás O'Leary (maybe has abillity but absoluetly no rugby intelligence) Simon Easterby, Paul McShane, Alan Kernaghan, Glenn Whelan.

This disease in irish sports has hindered the careers of some of our most talented players- David Wallace, Denis Hickie, Geordan Murphy, Andy Reid, Eoin Reddan (prob past his best now)...stop making exuses,stop rewarding loyalty over talent and please god irish people wake up and realise the talent we have!!!!

Firstly I think you fail to distinguish between "lack of ability" and lack of decent players in certain positions. If you have no-one better than you in your position should you be singled out and vilified for you being the best in your position whilst being the weakest in the team?

You slag off all those mentioned above without naming viable replacements for each one. Injuries often force managers into decisions they wouldn't normally take. Also perhaps you should focus on one sport for your examples.

Geordan Murphy vs Girvan Dempsey is pointless as they both offer something different; Murphy is the better attacker whilst Dempsey is defensively better, so neither totally ticking all the boxes you would want from a fullback. So you only like players who are attack minded and talented?

Slagging off MOD and Leo C as no talent is ridiculous as they both have been called upon time and again and have been valuable servants for ireland and their provinces. What do you expect from second rows to make them worthy of an Ireland call up?

As for calling Stringer (who many people on this forum myself included) think has the best pass of any scrum half for ireland currently "a flinger" is strange seeing how he has accomplished so much for a scrum half with such a debilitating and previously undiagnosed condition. Perhaps you could enlighten us?

On the subject of players who don't have the talent of others but who work harder (giving it their 'all') to make up for their shortcomings then fair play to them on their call up. Hard work and graft can achieve greater things than pure talent alone. Also shouldn't loyalty be considered an admiral trait and be repaid in kind?

I'll leave it at that.

mr_edge_to_you

You think that Hickie could've had a more fulfilling career with Ireland. I don't recall anyone "less talented" taking his place/position on the Irish team. He was Irelands top try scorer as he approached the end of his career.

I also think that you over estimate Reddan's skills/talent. In my opinion Leinsters decision to bring in Issac Boss speaks volumes.

dmcc13

yimrsg wrote: »

Firstly I think you fail to distinguish between "lack of ability" and lack of decent players in certain positions. If you have no-one better than you in your position should you be singled out and vilified for you being the best in your position whilst being the weakest in the team?

You slag off all those mentioned above without naming viable replacements for each one. Injuries often force managers into decisions they wouldn't normally take. Also perhaps you should focus on one sport for your examples.

Geordan Murphy vs Girvan Dempsey is pointless as they both offer something different; Murphy is the better attacker whilst Dempsey is defensively better, so neither totally ticking all the boxes you would want from a fullback. So you only like players who are attack minded and talented?

Slagging off MOD and Leo C as no talent is ridiculous as they both have been called upon time and again and have been valuable servants for ireland and their provinces. What do you expect from second rows to make them worthy of an Ireland call up?

As for calling Stringer (who many people on this forum myself included) think has the best pass of any scrum half for ireland currently "a flinger" is strange seeing how he has accomplished so much for a scrum half with such a debilitating and previously undiagnosed condition. Perhaps you could enlighten us?

On the subject of players who don't have the talent of others but who work harder (giving it their 'all') to make up for their shortcomings then fair play to them on their call up. Hard work and graft can achieve greater things than pure talent alone. Also shouldn't loyalty be considered an admiral trait and be repaid in kind?

I'll leave it at that.

My whole point on this post was the fact that there were many alternatives the the time for each player....invariably they are younger aswell. Dan Tuohy for O'Driscoll...Bob Casey for eons!!!

My previous reply also explains stringers fling!!and for the love of god man next time you see him play have a good look! The reason he never went on a lions tour is pretty is probably more to do with physicallity but might have something to do with the fact that there is no control over that fling!!

I also think its complete rubbish when saying dempsey is a much stronger defender than murphy, he is marginally better - Murphy one on one tackling isnt superb and is highlighted to ridiculous proportions- but this myth about his great positional sense is lazy analysis....name a full back that isnt good positionally???Murphy was embarassingly better then dempsey all round!!

As for the rest i didnt want to get into boring lists but here we go Kevine kilbane- any irish footballer with a decent left leg.
Peter Stringer- Eoin Reddan, Tomás O'Leary,
Girvan Dempsey- Geordan Murphy(in fact its a long list)
Mick O'driscoll- Dan Tuohy, Ryan Caldwell(two tours ago)Bob Casey
Leo Cullen- see above but also can add Devon Toner( gives you more around the park)
Simon Easterby- Alan Quinlan, Denis Leamy(a better 6 than 8) Neil Best(even with all the penalties)
Paul McShane- please enter any suggestion here
Alan Kernaghan- oing back a few years here but phil babb(who as bad but not as bad) at the time
Glenn Whelan- andy reid, darren gibson,keith fahy

Loyalty is a great trait but for godsake why not reward talent AND loyalty!!At inernational level hard wok will get you so far...but you need quality and fair enough if we dont have better well then thats fair enough but invariably we have better options in Dempseys case a far better option.

dmcc13

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

You think that Hickie could've had a more fulfilling career with Ireland. I don't recall anyone "less talented" taking his place/position on the Irish team. He was Irelands top try scorer as he approached the end of his career.

I also think that you over estimate Reddan's skills/talent. In my opinion Leinsters decision to bring in Issac Boss speaks volumes.

Reddan too be honest im not 100% sure about as a top player but he has got talent...its his desion making im not sure about. And if you look through hickies career he went throught two spells of being dropped for far less talented players( justin bishop and girvan dempsey).

Hickie is what ireland has really missed...if you want to see an example of what ireland have missed just look at a rerun of odriscolls hat trick match in paris apart from the tackle on delmaso hickie was unplayable that day...as a winger he created so much as well as being an amazing finisher!!

FridaysWell

The OP is right, it is a distinctly Irish thing-to-do, to pick people because 'ah sure, he was the best in the world'

Until we learn from the likes of New Zealand, we will never have a consistently great side. They seem to be able to throw anyone into their jersey, and a fine performance comes out of that player. Some mediocre players in New Zealand are like the best we have here!

Change your mentality, and you will see the benefits.
Ok Kidney has done a great job in, but get a foreign coach in to chake things up a little...

Irish rugby, yeah some bits of it are good, but bloody hell its all boring, especially this year. So lackstutre and mleh ughhhliness...

Stick to GAA or something...

sock puppet

FridaysWell wrote: »

The OP is right, it is a distinctly Irish thing-to-do, to pick people because 'ah sure, he was the best in the world'

Until we learn from the likes of New Zealand, we will never have a consistently great side. They seem to be able to throw anyone into their jersey, and a fine performance comes out of that player. Some mediocre players in New Zealand are like the best we have here!

Change your mentality, and you will see the benefits.
Ok Kidney has done a great job in, but get a foreign coach in to chake things up a little...

Irish rugby, yeah some bits of it are good, but bloody hell its all boring, especially this year. So lackstutre and mleh ughhhliness...

Stick to GAA or something...

It isn't a distinctly Irish thing. Look how long Wales have stuck with Jones even though Biggar has been better this season. It was only Burger getting banned that got Brussouw into the South African side. Graham Henry persisted with McAlister last season even though he was absolute garbage. Plenty of coaches do it.

anonymous_joe

sock puppet wrote: »

It isn't a distinctly Irish thing. Look how long Wales have stuck with Jones even though Biggar has been better this season. It was only Burger getting banned that got Brussouw into the South African side. Graham Henry persisted with McAlister last season even though he was absolute garbage. Plenty of coaches do it.

Martin 'Steve Borthwick can captain England' Johnson. For the record.

FridaysWell

It is a distinctly Irish thing to do because we seem to be the best at it...

yimrsg

dmcc13 wrote: »

My whole point on this post was the fact that there were many alternatives the the time for each player....invariably they are younger aswell. Dan Tuohy for O'Driscoll...Bob Casey for eons!!!

MOD is 32, LC is 31 and Bob Casey is 30. All 3 of them have never been gifted the starting positions for Ireland on reputation alone. They had POC, DOC and MOK to compete with for starts so you can hardly complain about them getting occasional game time.

Dan Tuohy has played 2 seasons for Ulster and you want him to start against New Zealand. He was on the bench and came on. Not a major complaint really. Devin Tonner hasn't developed much and challenge for a starting berth at Leinster let alone Ireland.

I do agree that we are painfully slow at bringing in young talent compared to other countries but for every debut like James O'Connor there is a Mathew Tait. An injury ravaged tour to NZ is about as horrid a start to international rugby as I can imagine.

dmcc13 wrote: »

My previous reply also explains stringers fling!!and for the love of god man next time you see him play have a good look! The reason he never went on a lions tour is pretty is probably more to do with physicallity but might have something to do with the fact that there is no control over that fling!!

That's your opinion and is entirely subjective like mine so we can just disagree on that. I was writing my reply whilst you were explaining. O'leary missed out on a lions tour also, what nugget of information can we glean from that? That somewhere in britain and ireland a man thinks that there are 3 other players better than him?

dmcc13 wrote: »

I also think its complete rubbish when saying dempsey is a much stronger defender than murphy, he is marginally better - Murphy one on one tackling isnt superb and is highlighted to ridiculous proportions- but this myth about his great positional sense is lazy analysis....name a full back that isnt good positionally???Murphy was embarassingly better then dempsey all round!!

Embarassingly better all round except in the try scoring department where Dempsey has 19 to Murphy's 18 for Ireland. I never said Girv was a much stronger defender than Murphy, I said he better defensively and Murphy had the advantage offensively. All international full backs have good positional sense, just some have better.

dmcc13 wrote: »

As for the rest i didnt want to get into boring lists but here we go
Peter Stringer- Eoin Reddan, Tomás O'Leary,
Girvan Dempsey- Geordan Murphy(in fact its a long list)
Mick O'driscoll- Dan Tuohy, Ryan Caldwell(two tours ago)Bob Casey
Leo Cullen- see above but also can add Devon Toner( gives you more around the park)
Simon Easterby- Alan Quinlan, Denis Leamy(a better 6 than 8) Neil Best(even with all the penalties)

Easterby was an injury replacement call up to the lions and forced his way into a starting bearth with the test side. Leamy was behind Axel in munster for a while and was used at 8 internationally. Quinlan has and is being underutilised and could still do a job at an international level. Also back row is one area where Ireland has serious competition and isn't lacking in strength and depth.

dmcc13 wrote: »

Loyalty is a great trait but for godsake why not reward talent AND loyalty!!At inernational level hard wok will get you so far...but you need quality and fair enough if we dont have better well then thats fair enough but invariably we have better options in Dempseys case a far better option.

Loyalty should also not blind a coach from trying other options which has and still occurs with DK and other coaches worldwide. Like the ROG/ Sexton debate we had two different options at 15 with EOS preferring the pragmatic approach of Dempsey over the more mercurial Murphy. I would hardly call Murphy a far better option, just a different one. One we should be grateful for.

danthefan

Is someone making the point Easterby was one of these 'untouchables'? Simon Easterby was a superb player right up until the 2007 6N, he deserved every cap he won up to the end of that tournament. He should have been allowed retire afterwards, and I'm pretty sure Italy in 2008 was his last start for Ireland.

dmcc13

yimrsg wrote: »

MOD is 32, LC is 31 and Bob Casey is 30. All 3 of them have never been gifted the starting positions for Ireland on reputation alone. They had POC, DOC and MOK to compete with for starts so you can hardly complain about them getting occasional game time.

Dan Tuohy has played 2 seasons for Ulster and you want him to start against New Zealand. He was on the bench and came on. Not a major complaint really. Devin Tonner hasn't developed much and challenge for a starting berth at Leinster let alone Ireland.

I do agree that we are painfully slow at bringing in young talent compared to other countries but for every debut like James O'Connor there is a Mathew Tait. An injury ravaged tour to NZ is about as horrid a start to international rugby as I can imagine.


That's your opinion and is entirely subjective like mine so we can just disagree on that. I was writing my reply whilst you were explaining. O'leary missed out on a lions tour also, what nugget of information can we glean from that? That somewhere in britain and ireland a man thinks that there are 3 other players better than him?


Embarassingly better all round except in the try scoring department where Dempsey has 19 to Murphy's 18 for Ireland. I never said Girv was a much stronger defender than Murphy, I said he better defensively and Murphy had the advantage offensively. All international full backs have good positional sense, just some have better.



Easterby was an injury replacement call up to the lions and forced his way into a starting bearth with the test side. Leamy was behind Axel in munster for a while and was used at 8 internationally. Quinlan has and is being underutilised and could still do a job at an international level. Also back row is one area where Ireland has serious competition and isn't lacking in strength and depth.



Loyalty should also not blind a coach from trying other options which has and still occurs with DK and other coaches worldwide. Like the ROG/ Sexton debate we had two different options at 15 with EOS preferring the pragmatic approach of Dempsey over the more mercurial Murphy. I would hardly call Murphy a far better option, just a different one. One we should be grateful for.

We'll have to agree to disagree on manyt topics. Dempsey has had more time on the pitch to score tries then murphy, and hanging outside your winger flopping over a line hardly points to any talent. The man was terrible...a passenger, and how can you possibly be better postionally??your either in the right position or not. A man who never took a line through the centres or attacked the blind side as first reciever is NOT good positionally and is NOT an adequate alternative to the talents of Geordan Murphy.

Bob Casey has been over looked by ireland for years, wether it was LC MOD or even DOC. Its not ONLY young talented players who are over looked....my point is he has been over looked for inferior players through the years.Altho DOC has since proven a fantastic player.

O'Leary missed out on the Lions only by injury...and god i wish i had stats to prove my theory on stringer, amount of floored passes perhaps or spills from pass. it would be interetsting to hear ogara's honest views on his pass....ive heard rumours but rumours are usually BS.

Devin toner has not developed because cheika is even worse than any irish coach...he will pick irish talent only when a gun is placed close to his head ( sean obrien anyone??).

And as for the lions in new zealand....we had the best 6 back row forwards (bar dalliglio) and easterby was 6th best and in fairness he played well in the test, and for awhile i thought maybe i was wrong and then the world cup came around and the subsequent 6 nations and what an an unbelievable disaster that was!!


And finally i will say something to get everyone jumping....Gavin Duffy and Shaun Payne were and are better players then girvan dempsey. Hiding so as not too make a mistake does not make you a good player.

dmcc13

danthefan wrote: »

Is someone making the point Easterby was one of these 'untouchables'? Simon Easterby was a superb player right up until the 2007 6N, he deserved every cap he won up to the end of that tournament. He should have been allowed retire afterwards, and I'm pretty sure Italy in 2008 was his last start for Ireland.

He was not in the same league as quinlan and leamy. he had one good lions tour and thats about it.no power, no pace, no hands but plenty of endeavour but im sorry thats not enough when we had such talent in that department!!

dmcc13

I suppose my whole argument can be summed up by one players career which has been mirrored by so many since his. Eddie Halvey was the most talented footballer i have seen...he ws like david wallace mixed with quinlan, but his career was never fulfilled.and continually had inferior players picked ahead of him for no apparent reason. Now maybe there were other reasons we have nver been made privy too but for me his career is like a microcosim of what happens across irelands sporting teams every year

danthefan

dmcc13 wrote: »

He was not in the same league as quinlan and leamy. he had one good lions tour and thats about it.no power, no pace, no hands but plenty of endeavour but im sorry thats not enough when we had such talent in that department!!

Utter nonsense, you really don't know what you're talking about to put it mildly.

Arrogance

Keith Gleeson was the most criminally overlooked player of Irish rugby.

FridaysWell

Arrogance wrote: »

Keith Gleeson was the most criminally overlooked player of Irish rugby.

Too true, way too true.

Wayyyyyyyy better then Quinlan for one. Gleeson was never really appretiated at Leinster either...

dmcc13

danthefan wrote: »

Utter nonsense, you really don't know what you're talking about to put it mildly.

Im sorry but easterby was a fine servant for his club...but a number 6 who has no power,pace or rugby skill is just not good enough when you have better options.

dmcc13

Arrogance wrote: »

Keith Gleeson was the most criminally overlooked player of Irish rugby.

110% CORRECT i knew there was somone i was missing

dmcc13

dmcc13 wrote: »

110% CORRECT i knew there was somone i was missing

The last world cup should of had gleeson 7 wallace 8 (and a decent run at 8 the years leading up to it) and leamy 6

CatFromHue

its funny i dont remember murphy ever taking this line through the centres you keep going on about.

going into the 2003 world cup i think it was murphy was the man in possesion of the 15 jersey very deservedly, but he broke his leg and never got back to that form for ireland

im not sure the relevance of talking about shaun payne but gavin duffy is not a better player than dempsey and was never as comfortable under the high ball as him either.

he has had a good season this season but with murphy and kearney ahead of him for ireland he isnt going to get a chance unless they get injured.

it'll be interesting to see if he gets game time against the maori

im not quite sure what you mean about cheika ignoring irish talent, even with sean o brien. who had rocky, heaslip, jennings, ahead of as first choice. a fairly formidable back row for anyone.

also what about mcfadden? or even giving kearney and fitzgerald game time when they were only a year or so out of school.

dmcc13

CatFromHue wrote: »

its funny i dont remember murphy ever taking this line through the centres you keep going on about.

going into the 2003 world cup i think it was murphy was the man in possesion of the 15 jersey very deservedly, but he broke his leg and never got back to that form for ireland

im not sure the relevance of talking about shaun payne but gavin duffy is not a better player than dempsey and was never as comfortable under the high ball as him either.

he has had a good season this season but with murphy and kearney ahead of him for ireland he isnt going to get a chance unless they get injured.

it'll be interesting to see if he gets game time against the maori

im not quite sure what you mean about cheika ignoring irish talent, even with sean o brien. who had rocky, heaslip, jennings, ahead of as first choice. a fairly formidable back row for anyone.

also what about mcfadden? or even giving kearney and fitzgerald game time when they were only a year or so out of school.

Murphys trademark is this line and he has done it in nearly ever match he has ever played in..not always making a break but it vary's the point of attack and keeps their defensive line thinking. Gavin Duffy isn't in the class of kearney, fitzgerald, earls, murphy or a host of younger tyro's coming through but my point is when dempsey was in his pomp i think that he was the 4th best irish qualified fb. As for duffy being not 'solid under the high ball' thats rubbish..maybe your thinking of someone else...i dont know any specialist full back who is not good under the high ball not one!!

Kearney forced his way into the leinster team when dempsey was injured and was dropped even when he came back form the lions...not rested but dropped (necewa was originally bought to replace dempsey showing great faith in kearney)
O'Brien was dropped the minute jennings was back from his ban even though he was playing out of his skin and his later injury took the pressure off cheika (jennings is a very good player but obrien deserved his chance and if given the oppurtunity i think he would have been proved to be a better player)
Cheika was forced into giving sexton a chance (he even bought berne, a journeyman, cos he didnt trust him)
McFadden has been incredibly good over the last season, amazing in the churchill cup and earlier in the season and the minute darcy came back from injury he was straight into the side even with his nitial bad form.

Can you imagine if jenings and cullen had not come back....the development of obrien along side rocky would have been amazing...similarly this season if toner had a prolonged partnership with hines...his development would have been massive and ireland would be in a much stronger position today.

CatFromHue

at the start of the season nacewa was offering alot more from full back, he gets other players moving i.e. has nice passing and interlinking with other players compared to kearney.
i wasnt sure if kearney would be able to displace him if fitzgerald hadny got injured and nacewa moved to the wing.

i think berne filled a hole in that he covers 10 and 12. which is what leinster needed.

remember the season before leinster won the heineken cup 2007-08 sexton had 13 starts, contepomi may have been injuered but to say he was forced into giving sexton a chance while not wrong not 100% right either

i still think you are wrong about duffy being better than dempsey, you even say it yourself by saying he was 4th behind dempsey

myflipflops

Ignoring the discussion on how good/bad Stringer is (I think he's pretty damn poor for an international scrum half), his example can be more accurately used to describe how Kidney WILL ignore loyalty and pick on form.

It was an enormous shock (and not popular with Munster fans) when Stringer was dropped for the Gloucester HEC 1/4 final in 2008. It was a big call Kidney made and it was the correct one.

For a long time, Stringer was the only viable scrum half for Ireland. I believe he limited us massively but there was nobody else and he played becuase he was the best 9 available. Pretty much as soon as there was another option good enough to start test matches (O'Leary), Stringer was dropped for province and country. I saw no unnecessary loyalty to him.

dmcc13

CatFromHue wrote: »

at the start of the season nacewa was offering alot more from full back, he gets other players moving i.e. has nice passing and interlinking with other players compared to kearney.
i wasnt sure if kearney would be able to displace him if fitzgerald hadny got injured and nacewa moved to the wing.

i think berne filled a hole in that he covers 10 and 12. which is what leinster needed.

remember the season before leinster won the heineken cup 2007-08 sexton had 13 starts, contepomi may have been injuered but to say he was forced into giving sexton a chance while not wrong not 100% right either

i still think you are wrong about duffy being better than dempsey, you even say it yourself by saying he was 4th behind dempsey

Sorry cat my terrible grammer has failed me again....i meant to point out i felt dempsey was fourth. As for nacewa, he's an extremely good player, but with leinsters talents he wasn't needed. Kearney is a better player thats the end of it and should be trusted. And nacewa was bought last year before the lions tour...because cheika didnt rate kearney enough.

Again when berne was bought he was bought cos contepomi was leaving...and if it wasnt for that semi final and final berne would be the regular out half for leinster.

Leinster have no faith in irish players or irish coaches....they would be unbeatable if they had faith and would be the centre of rugby in europe...and if they stopped ignoring their youth pool and put the same money into youth rugby as they do schools rugby then ireland would have a serious golden generation in a few years.!!

danthefan

dmcc13 wrote: »

Sorry cat my terrible grammer has failed me again....i meant to point out i felt dempsey was fourth. As for nacewa, he's an extremely good player, but with leinsters talents he wasn't needed. Kearney is a better player thats the end of it and should be trusted. And nacewa was bought last year before the lions tour...because cheika didnt rate kearney enough.

Again when berne was bought he was bought cos contepomi was leaving...and if it wasnt for that semi final and final berne would be the regular out half for leinster.

Leinster have no faith in irish players or irish coaches....they would be unbeatable if they had faith and would be the centre of rugby in europe...and if they stopped ignoring their youth pool and put the same money into youth rugby as they do schools rugby then ireland would have a serious golden generation in a few years.!!

What a load of waffle. Not sure I can find a single thing right about this post.