Tony Buckley?

dromdrom

Kinda feels this needs its own thread, a lot of the talk has been about our TH situation, whats the prognosis on Buckley after today, do people feel a little more confident that he can do a job come world cup time?

thomond2006

In the loose, yes.
In the scrum, not sure.

Blobby George

Coming of age performance. Kidney should keep the faith in him.

Taco Corp

He certainly know how to off load in the tackle and is much more mobile around the field than Hayes. Still not sure about him in the scrum though. If he's able he should start on Friday, should definitely start against the Aussies.

themont85

thomond2006 wrote: »

In the loose, yes.
In the scrum, not sure.

Hayes can't scrum either.

Podge_irl

He's no worse in the scrum than Hayes at this point so there is simply no reason not to start him.

d'Oracle

He will have to.
Its now up to the respective managers of munster and Ireland to get people on him some way up to speed at scrum time.

The same could be said for Healy.

Nilther

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's no worse in the scrum than Hayes at this point so there is simply no reason not to start him.

This

Kiwi_knock

Needs a consistent run of performances for both club and country but after that performance he certainly looks a viable alternative to Hayes

wonton

does anyone n else think stewart maguire could be our thight head for the world cup if he gets game time with leinster next year?

i know its a huge step up but he done some great scrumagging in the under 20s.



the sky sports folk seem to bloody love buckley

dromdrom

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Needs a consistent run of performances for both club and country but after that performance he certainly looks a viable alternative to Hayes

Despite being hammered by the all blacks, am actually feeling a bit better after watching that, we know we have the back line that can turn it on when they get ball, think Buckley and Tuohy have added to our options in the pack, add them to a team with the players that were absent today and we should on paper have a stronger team than finished the six nations.

BigBlack2010

He deserves a starting place against the Maori and Australia. Given the type of game it was the scrum didn't get a look in

At the very least we need an alternative at TH

Arrogance

wonton wrote: »

does anyone n else think stewart maguire could be our thight head for the world cup if he gets game time with leinster next year?

i know its a huge step up but he done some great scrumagging in the under 20s.

Too soon unfortunately. 2015 I can see him or McGrath starting tighthead

handsomecake

thomond2006 wrote: »

In the loose, yes.
In the scrum, not sure.

100 percent correct

bleg

Give the bull a rest.

dmcc13

I think our backline is very unbalanced, its packed with strike runners of the highest quality but too unleash them you have to have speed from the halves (which you'll never get with o'leary or stringer who continually box kick and dither at the base) or at least two creative and rugby intelligent players in the backline somewhere. This maybe unpopluar but you have to find a space in this backline for two out of the following- McFadden, Murphy, Sexton or Wallace...with our strike runners we should be ripping teams to shreds even with limited ball our now depleted pack produce but we havent been because there is no creativity for Bowe, O'driscoll, darcy,kearney to dove tail off. Just look at carter with smith today..unbelievable, australia have giteau,genia and cooper...france have poitrenaud, jauzion,and any one of 3 great scrum half generals.....too unleash our potential we have to drop one of our great strike runners...i would rest a tired odriscoll and experiment with reddan 9 sexton 10 wallace at 12 and darcy 13 against maories and then switch darcy with odriscoll against australia just too have look. God iv gone miles off topic my humblest apologies....just had to get it off my chest.

CatFromHue

i think after he gets another full game either against the maori or the aussies then we can make a better decision.

he was by far our best forward for making ground today, he missed a few tackles but did dump mccaw in a lovely tackle, early on when it counted too.

ireland need him in the loose, we dont have anyone else who can actually just plow into people and get through.

as for the scrum, again id like to see him again for a full game

Peter B

Buckley played very well today but as mentioned previous and in the match thread it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if there were more scrums.

Foxtrol

Peter B wrote: »

Buckley played very well today but as mentioned previous and in the match thread it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if there were more scrums.

The worrying thing is that if Kidney had his way we would have only seen 10 minutes of Buckley at the end of the match. Buckley had a solid game barring the odd tackle. Definitely should start against Aus. Hopefully Munster will start him at TH for a solid run next season and we can see what he's made of.

Stev_o

Buckley needs to be starting consecutive games now for Munster and Ireland. He wasn't that bad today though you can't really saying what his scrummaging is due to Heaslips brain fart. He was fairly composed in the loose and was more evident then Healy. We could do worse tbh.

subfreq

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's no worse in the scrum than Hayes at this point so there is simply no reason not to start him.

Sums up my opinion as well.

DylanJM

subfreq wrote: »

Sums up my opinion as well.

Yes but he's younger, has room for improvement scrumage wise and is good in the loose. Look, Hayes is at the end of his career and we need a replacement and that's it. There's no point continuing to play him when there's a better alternative.

Chucky the tree

Most people will agree(Kidney the expectation maybe) that he should start ahead of Hayes, but that's not really the most important issue. The main problem for me is, is Buckley a good enough TH to start in a WC for a team who have ambitions to win it? That for me is still very much in the air.

nicebutdim

He is at least 5 inches too tall to be a prop, but he looks to be the best option we have in at least the short term. He did well today. I would have to say that we need to look at the Second rows as part of the scrummaging problem. This seems to get ignored constantly

profitius

nicebutdim wrote: »

He is at least 5 inches too tall to be a prop, but he looks to be the best option we have in at least the short term. He did well today. I would have to say that we need to look at the Second rows as part of the scrummaging problem. This seems to get ignored constantly

Carl Hayman is about 6ft 4.

anonymous_joe

Two comments;

In terms of scrummaging, Buckley still has a bit to prove. He's clearly as good as anyone else we have though.

Secondly - his performance in the loose today was astonishing. Truly astonishing. I've criticised him before, but he was monumental today. He's shown potential before, this was the closest he's come to realising it.

He needs to start for us from now on.

Jemo

He has absolutely beautiful hands, just seems to have all the time in the world to catch and give passes and does well at bulldozing. We could really do with an offloading forward considering that we lack that at current and he certainly provides that when he chooses to play. Fair play to him Cronin and Healt today, as a 7 man scrum they performed admirably when necessary. Is Buckley the answer longterm? I don't think so, but its too late to worry about that, we need a tighthead for the world cup and he is the best option. Play him please McGahan and Kidney and above all else, employ an acclaimed scrum coach! We have the raw material, they just need experienced instruction.

dromdrom

Jemo wrote: »

. Play him please McGahan and Kidney and above all else, employ an acclaimed scrum coach! We have the raw material, they just need experienced instruction.

I'm sure Paul McCarthy will be delighted with you!

Jemo

dromdrom wrote: »

I'm sure Paul McCarthy will be delighted with you!

who?
Edit: Ah I just found his name on the net there, didn't know that he had come on board, best of luck to him, its badly needed!

OAOB

Buckley has shown flashes of quality enough times but consistency is his big problem. Hopefully if he gets a run of games he can convince us he's reliable enough to start ahead of Hayes.

danthefan

I really really hope Buckley starts against Aus, he should do, but it remains to be seen if he can put two decent games together back to back.

He did more around the pitch than Hayes has in the last season combined, and his scrummaging isn't any worse.

Arrogance

danthefan wrote: »

I really really hope Buckley starts against Aus, he should do, but it remains to be seen if he can put two decent games together back to back.

He did more around the pitch than Hayes has in the last season combined, and his scrummaging isn't any worse.

He has to start but I wont be suprised if Kidney selects Hayes ahead of him which would be a disgrace.

danthefan

Arrogance wrote: »

He has to start but I wont be suprised if Kidney selects Hayes ahead of him which would be a disgrace.

I wouldn't be surprised either, sadly.

thomond2006

danthefan wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised either, sadly.

+1

mrboswell

profitius wrote: »

Carl Hayman is about 6ft 4.

But he can scrummage - very well

Benny Cake

mrboswell wrote: »

But he can scrummage - very well

Which shows his height isn't the problem...... its a combination of inexperience and questionable attitude that are the issue....

Pishogue

It's a pity Buckley is so much under the spotlight - we are not talking this way about Fergus McFadden replacing Drico.....but tighthead is probably the most important position in the modern game.
Buckley has had a good game today. Probably rested against the Maoris and then will face the Aussie front row, who are no great shakes. He'll probably come out of this tour with his head held high. Let's hope he can push on and get more chances next year.

Pishogue

...and another thing....why can't Ireland produce props. The Celts are the perfect shape race to produce good raw material props. Walk down any street in Ireland and you'll see many potential props. We need to trawl the Southern hemisphere and find props under the parentage rule....until we get the right coaching.

thomond2006

Pishogue wrote: »

It's a pity Buckley is so much under the spotlight - we are not talking this way about Fergus McFadden replacing Drico.....but tighthead is probably the most important position in the modern game.
Buckley has had a good game today. Probably rested against the Maoris and then will face the Aussie front row, who are no great shakes. He'll probably come out of this tour with his head held high. Let's hope he can push on and get more chances next year.

IMO he should be the first name on the team sheet for the Maoris, let's see if he can back up his performance against the ABs and get tested at scrum time.

wonton

Pishogue wrote: »

It's a pity Buckley is so much under the spotlight - we are not talking this way about Fergus McFadden replacing Drico.....but tighthead is probably the most important position in the modern game.
Buckley has had a good game today. Probably rested against the Maoris and then will face the Aussie front row, who are no great shakes. He'll probably come out of this tour with his head held high. Let's hope he can push on and get more chances next year.

one thing people need to remember buckley is nearly 30, not exatly a long term replacement

buck65

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Most people will agree(Kidney the expectation maybe) that he should start ahead of Hayes, but that's not really the most important issue. The main problem for me is, is Buckley a good enough TH to start in a WC for a team who have ambitions to win it? That for me is still very much in the air.

Are you serious?
Getting out of the group would be an achievement at this stage.

anonymous_joe

Pishogue wrote: »

...and another thing....why can't Ireland produce props. The Celts are the perfect shape race to produce good raw material props. Walk down any street in Ireland and you'll see many potential props. We need to trawl the Southern hemisphere and find props under the parentage rule....until we get the right coaching.

Most people in Ireland have slim builds. They might be fat, but they're rarely barrel chested.

What you might get is tall and broad shouldered, but we get f all people who are short wide squat and powerful.

Arrogance

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Most people in Ireland have slim builds. They might be fat, but they're rarely barrel chested.

What you might get is tall and broad shouldered, but we get f all people who are short wide squat and powerful.

Irish genetics are most apt for producing backrow players (which we have an abundance of) Prop builds are mostly seen in eastern european countries (Georgia being an example), South Africa (because they shovel down tons of animal fat in their diet), Italy (not sure why), Argentina (could be to do with all the steak they eat) and countries such as Fiji, Samoa, Tonga etc. (pure genetics).

Countries like England, France and Australia find props because of their huge playing populations whilst NZ have their Pacific island friends to rely on and an incredible coaching system that turns those who dont have natural prop builds (Haymans) into world class props.

redroar1942

thomond2006 wrote: »

IMO he should be the first name on the team sheet for the Maoris, let's see if he can back up his performance against the ABs and get tested at scrum time.

I'd be tempted to rest him and give Court a go. See if he can play TH or not.
I know your thinking rest him he was our best player
but he's hardly played any back to back games this season and two against to ultra physical teams may be a bit much. The last thing you want is Buckley getting injured and the head dropping again. As was pointed out above more then anything he needs a confidence boost. I'd rest him and have him fresh for the weakened Australian front row.

heybaby

redroar1942 wrote: »

I'd be tempted to rest him and give Court a go. See if he can play TH or not.
I know your thinking rest him he was our best player
but he's hardly played any back to back games this season and two against to ultra physical teams may be a bit much. The last thing you want is Buckley getting injured and the head dropping again. As was pointed out above more then anything he needs a confidence boost. I'd rest him and have him fresh for the weakened Australian front row.

Yes either play court or buckley, just as long as Kidney puts the mighty servant Hayes out to pasture once and for all. I firmly believe Hayes shouldnt be allowed suffer any longer at the coal face for Ireland, he has done trojan work over the years, let him retire with his dignity and 100 plus caps. If Kidney even considers looking at hayes again with us a year out from a world cup, then you really have to question what kidney is doing. Personally I began to question Kidney after the capitulation to the french in this years 6 nations, dont get me wrong, he has some honours on his cv but Irelands failure to build on the momentum of a grandslam is Kidneys fault in my opinion. Twelve months out from a world cup, we go down to the 4th defeat (all blacks, baa baa's, scotland, France) in recent months, and with two defeats likely against the maori and the aussies staring us in the face, this is unacceptable,

Chucky the tree

buck65 wrote: »

Are you serious?
Getting out of the group would be an achievement at this stage.

Steady no. We've a first 15 who should be able to compete with the best teams, our problem is poor management though which is really hampering us.

bugler

Don't really have time to read through the whole thread right now. But, in summary, Buckley proved to the management that he is a better option than Hayes now. He carried more ball and made more tackles than Hayes ever could.

The scrummaging is going to be an issue against the stronger sides. but Hayes is no better than him at this stage, and if your'e going to pick a ropey scrummager then why not make it the one that has good hands and can carry ball?

Kidney is faced with a choice. If he wants to shore the scrum up then he goes to Mike Ross, and takes the lack of mobility, carrying and tackling that is inherent in that. If he wants mobility then go with Buckley and accept that the scrum will suffer. He has shown he doesn't rate Ross, so that won't happen. But the absolute worst thing he could do is persist with Hayes, who offers none of the attributes of the others. Unfortunately I think he will continue with him.

Starting Buckley at TH and having Ross on the bench in case of an Australian type demolition is for me the best option. Alternatively, have Court on the bench (I was impressed with his brief cameo at TH against the French this 6N, if he could maintain that he'd be the best option).

Hayes continued inclusion is hindering us though, and I say that knowing full well how good the man was and the debt the Irish team owes him over the professional era.

danthefan

bugler wrote: »

Don't really have time to read through the whole thread right now. But, in summary, Buckley proved to the management that he is a better option than Hayes now. He carried more ball and made more tackles than Hayes ever could.

I take issue with this. He has to back the performance up before we can start talking like that. It was a good performance, but it was just one game.

outwest

i agree with dan,

buckley need to perform to this level more often, he has a history of having the odd great game followed by average games

Foxtrol

danthefan wrote: »

I take issue with this. He has to back the performance up before we can start talking like that. It was a good performance, but it was just one game.

Where has Hayes recently proved he is a better option than Buckely? Buckley is not only now the guy in possession of the shirt but he's also younger (not by too much I know), in need of a run of games and a much more viable option than Hayes for the World Cup.

spoon

I think Mushy has been pretty good since the 6 nations, compared to the way he was before. His scrummaging is now better than Hayes, who as deteriorated in every aspect of the game over the last season. It's a crazy decision to put Hayes on ahead of him. The guy needs to be rested and used as back up to Buckley at Munster.