Rail Freight & Western Rail Corridor

Empire o de Sun

What is that status of the Western rail corridor in terms of usage by rail freight?

If there is none, was it rebuilt with the loading gauge of railfreight in mind?
Can it take the 201 loco?

DWCommuter

It can take a 201 loco. There was one over it in April on a rail tour. As for freight, I don't know of any potential flows between Galway and Limerick.

Hoof Hearted

And at over 110 tonnes the 201 class would probably be heavier than the heaviest freight car.
If the link to Claremorris is completed, only then might there be some business case for running from Ballina to Waterford. But even then it might be still faster and cheaper running freight through Kildare. So short of major coal or mineral discovery on the West coast near the line, I would think the freight levels will be low to non-existant.

corktina

there is no western rail corridor...its a secondary route from Limerick to near Galway..freight potental zero ( dont believe me? how much frieght runs from Tralee or Sligo or Derry or Belfast or Cork?

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

there is no western rail corridor...its a secondary route from Limerick to near Galway..freight potental zero ( dont believe me? how much frieght runs from Tralee or Sligo or Derry or Belfast or Cork?

Saying there is zero freight potential is a bit extreme, as said already, at the very least if Claremorris is reopened then the Ballina freight is a possibility.

There are big plans for Galway port including a rail head so somebody better tell them quickly not to bother if what you are saying is correct.

The Ballina operation seems to indicate that moving boxes around the country by rail is viable if managed correctly, and surely there is potential there, especially given the tolls on the roads for trucks.

Empire o de Sun

I think that the Claremoris link is the Key, and may be the savior of the Limerick Waterford Railway.

Godge

rainbowdash wrote: »

Saying there is zero freight potential is a bit extreme, as said already, at the very least if Claremorris is reopened then the Ballina freight is a possibility.

There are big plans for Galway port including a rail head so somebody better tell them quickly not to bother if what you are saying is correct.

The Ballina operation seems to indicate that moving boxes around the country by rail is viable if managed correctly, and surely there is potential there, especially given the tolls on the roads for trucks.

There is little potential and the little there is doesn't justify the Western Rail Corridor. This is not a Hollywood movie where "build it and they will come" applies.

DWCommuter

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

I think that the Claremoris link is the Key, and may be the savior of the Limerick Waterford Railway.

Whats the weather like on that planet?:D

dowlingm

DW - which rail tour was that? The Mark III railtour was an 071.

I'd be more worried about whether the Cahir viaduct would take a 201. What's the heaviest load it's taken since the repair?

Victor

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

If the link to Claremorris is completed, only then might there be some business case for running from Ballina to Waterford.

But this already exists. I'd much rather spend €2m adding a shot bit of track for running around at Kildare than spend tens, if not hundreds of millions on the WRC.

Hoping that super ships will operate to Galway is delirious - is well away from normal shipping lanes. In any case, rail only works over long distance. Mayo-Galway isn't long distance.

corktina

exactly.Diverting existing traffic over the route as an exercise in saying "look what a great idea it was to spend millions on this line " is pure lunacy.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

DW - which rail tour was that? The Mark III railtour was an 071.

I'd be more worried about whether the Cahir viaduct would take a 201. What's the heaviest load it's taken since the repair?

OOpps!

My mistake. It was indeed an 071. Further proof that Im just not in the enthusiast club.:D

westtip

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

I think that the Claremoris link is the Key, and may be the savior of the Limerick Waterford Railway.

Yeh right, Claremorris the new Clapham Junction of our fair isle.....keept taking the pills.

dowlingm

Claremorris-Athenry would open up some slots on Athlone-Westport/Ballina, Athlone-Portarlington, Portarlington-Kildare and Kildare-Waterford for movements currently blocked, although it wouldn't affect the North Wall traffic. Given IE's throwing shapes at improvements on Kildare-Waterford passenger, Belview traffic could find itself unwelcome soon. It would also offer a massive cut in the deadheading distance of the current Ballina-Limerick maintenance shuttle.

However, the reality is that there are few slots available Athenry-Galway and IE's crosshairs are lining up on Limerick Junction-Waterford. Unless Mayo and Galway County Councils were going to do an aboutface and co-fund this section (and with what money? The Co. Co.s are broke!) it just won't happen. IE say that the freight trains from Mayo take 3,000 trucks off the road, but neither the government, the NRA or the county councils remunerate IE for that.

corktina

that three thou is probably 1500 each way per annum....or 6 vehicles in total.... those statistics are so woolly that you can make them say anything. There is no doubt in my mind that there would NOT be 3000 extra trucks appear should these services stop running.

dowlingm

52 weeks a year x 4 x 2 (ways) is 416 train movements, probably a few less around Christmas etc. Obviously it should have read "truck movements" rather than trucks but that's not how press releases are written. Each truck would run about 320km in each direction to Belview or 250km to North Wall.

corktina

its not a lot of truck movements when you break it down though is it....

wild handlin

corktina wrote: »

its not a lot of truck movements when you break it down though is it....

On average of 9,000 per year if my maths is correct........

Godge

dowlingm wrote: »

Claremorris-Athenry would open up some slots on Athlone-Westport/Ballina, Athlone-Portarlington, Portarlington-Kildare and Kildare-Waterford for movements currently blocked, although it wouldn't affect the North Wall traffic. Given IE's throwing shapes at improvements on Kildare-Waterford passenger, Belview traffic could find itself unwelcome soon. It would also offer a massive cut in the deadheading distance of the current Ballina-Limerick maintenance shuttle.

However, the reality is that there are few slots available Athenry-Galway and IE's crosshairs are lining up on Limerick Junction-Waterford. Unless Mayo and Galway County Councils were going to do an aboutface and co-fund this section (and with what money? The Co. Co.s are broke!) it just won't happen. IE say that the freight trains from Mayo take 3,000 trucks off the road, but neither the government, the NRA or the county councils remunerate IE for that.

Is that 3,000 truck journeys a day or a year?

If it is a year, for the expenditure it would be like saying buy me a helicopter and you take my car journeys off the road.

More lunacy.

wild handlin

Godge wrote: »

Is that 3,000 truck journeys a day or a year?

If it is a year, for the expenditure it would be like saying buy me a helicopter and you take my car journeys off the road.

More lunacy.

How?

The companies pay for the use of the trains for freight, not the tax payer!! (Whats left of) Railfreight turns a profit.

corktina

i doubt it turns a profit if you add in the real costs of the extra signalling and mangement time etc....

Empire o de Sun

Well a fully loaded HGV can do as much damage as almost 10,000 cars.

Yes ten thousand.

So one trains load is what, about 18 cars, 18 x 10000 = 180,000 car equivalents, capacity of the M50, so now you know what trucks do to our roads.

Now even if the train isn't fully loaded, it is still at 100,000 or more.

So Rail freight is saving us a fortune on road maintenance.

corktina

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Well a fully loaded HGV can do as much damage as almost 10,000 cars.

Yes ten thousand.

So one trains load is what, about 18 cars, 18 x 10000 = 180,000 car equivalents, capacity of the M50, so now you know what trucks do to our roads.

Now even if the train isn't fully loaded, it is still at 100,000 or more.

So Rail freight is saving us a fortune on road maintenance.

evidence please! if this were true every truck would be leaving a wake of broken tarmac and potholes...

Victor

corktina wrote: »

evidence please! if this were true every truck would be leaving a wake of broken tarmac and potholes...

It is disproportionate, but I'm not sure if its that disproprotionate.

Godge

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Well a fully loaded HGV can do as much damage as almost 10,000 cars.

Yes ten thousand.

So one trains load is what, about 18 cars, 18 x 10000 = 180,000 car equivalents, capacity of the M50, so now you know what trucks do to our roads.

Now even if the train isn't fully loaded, it is still at 100,000 or more.

So Rail freight is saving us a fortune on road maintenance.

Firstly, I find that number hard to believe. HGVs are heavier than cars, I can understand but 10,000 times the damage?

Secondly, if the weight of the HGV proportionally does that much damage to the roads, it also does it to rail. So the money saved in road maintenance is wasted on rail maintenance (as well as the money wasted on building the thing and keeping it open for the 23 passengers).

Empire o de Sun

Godge wrote: »

Firstly, I find that number hard to believe. HGVs are heavier than cars, I can understand but 10,000 times the damage?

Secondly, if the weight of the HGV proportionally does that much damage to the roads, it also does it to rail. So the money saved in road maintenance is wasted on rail maintenance (as well as the money wasted on building the thing and keeping it open for the 23 passengers).

Got the number originally from Highway Design when i was in college years ago. The 10,000 was a gestimate, as I couldn't remember the exact number.

Found this web site, it states 9600 cars. It's an american web site, and is based on a 36 tonne HGV,

http://www.saferoads.org/issues/fs-trucks.htm

Just because a Lorry weighs the same as 40 cars doesn't mean that the damage is equivalent to 40 cars.

Trucks cos us allot of money. Regional roads can't take their weight. From experience regional roads have very little in them for a foundation, and the road pavement is thin. This is fine if traffic is just cars, but lorries will grind it down

Just look at O'Connell Street. The surface has to be replaced already cos of the volume of bus traffic in the bus lane. Where as the car lane is fine. But this was more to do with the spec of the material that it didn't last.

Empire o de Sun

corktina wrote: »

evidence please! if this were true every truck would be leaving a wake of broken tarmac and potholes...

They do, look at any regional road with high volumes of HGVs.

L1011

Godge wrote: »

Firstly, I find that number hard to believe. HGVs are heavier than cars, I can understand but 10,000 times the damage?

Secondly, if the weight of the HGV proportionally does that much damage to the roads, it also does it to rail. So the money saved in road maintenance is wasted on rail maintenance (as well as the money wasted on building the thing and keeping it open for the 23 passengers).

Rail is designed for heavier loads than roads which in many cases were never "designed" at all (just being gradual sucessions of tarmac thrown down on old cart tracks). Consider how much a passenger train weighs to begin with!

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

i doubt it turns a profit if you add in the real costs of the extra signalling and mangement time etc....

And the trucks pay a motor tax of €2000 (not sure exactly) does this cover the cost of road maintenance, traffic lights, the guards to police the roads, etc. etc. I doubt it.

wild handlin

corktina wrote: »

i doubt it turns a profit if you add in the real costs of the extra signalling and mangement time etc....

So I presume Navan - Drogheda is entirely funded by the tax payer?

I read that in 2008 railfreight accounted for 1.3% of all IE's train movements, yet it accounted for 10% of it's revinue. Seems like a no brainer to use railfreight....

Also, I can't see how a freight train would "damage" tracks any more than a passenger train. Remember, all trains, be it passenger/freight have to stick to an axle loading and not exceed it.

Regarding lorries doing more damage to roads than car's. Yes I agree. One only has to look at a road which has a serious volume of HGV traffic per day - which has not been rebuilt in the past 15 years.

Jim Martin

corktina wrote: »

there is no western rail corridor...its a secondary route from Limerick to near Galway..freight potental zero ( dont believe me? how much frieght runs from Tralee or Sligo or Derry or Belfast or Cork?

Yes, there is potential for freight to & from the Clare county town, Ennis. They cut it out & withdrew to Limerick & then had to road it, they've probably lost it all together now!

This time of the year, I used to see The IR lorry come from Ennis loaded with Guiness for the Willie Clancy Week. It probably comes all the way from Dublin now - disgraceful!

Judgement Day

Jim Martin wrote: »

Yes, there is potential for freight to & from the Clare county town, Ennis. They cut it out & withdrew to Limerick & then had to road it, they've probably lost it all together now!

This time of the year, I used to see The IR lorry come from Ennis loaded with Guiness for the Willie Clancy Week. It probably comes all the way from Dublin now - disgraceful!

Yes, this was the typical pattern for CIE withdrawal of freight services. When they withdrew the general goods (sundries) from the South Wexford line it was replaced with a road service from Wexford railhead, but when the general goods sevice was withdrawn from the Connolly/Rosslare line stations they were then served from Carlow!! You can really see the economics of bring goods by road to the North Wall then by rail to Carlow then by road back to stations on the DSER coastal route.

Then there was the Guinness liner which passed through Thurles on its way to Limerick, where the Guinness for Thurles was then sent back by private haulier to Thurles. In the case of Galway the Guinness was being sent by road on a Saturday night and an Irish Rail forklift driver being rostered to unload on a Sunday! I could go on but what's the point. No doubt some apologist for CIE/IE will soon be on here to give perfectly rational explanations for this sort of carry-on. :rolleyes:

corktina

Jim Martin wrote: »

Yes, there is potential for freight to & from the Clare county town, Ennis. They cut it out & withdrew to Limerick & then had to road it, they've probably lost it all together now!

This time of the year, I used to see The IR lorry come from Ennis loaded with Guiness for the Willie Clancy Week. It probably comes all the way from Dublin now - disgraceful!

One lorry load and you'd run a train for that? It probably does come all the way from Dublin for the very good reason that it would be cheaper and would be delivered right to the door instead of being transhipped twice. Rail freight only makes sense in large quantities over long distances.

wild handlin

corktina wrote: »

One lorry load and you'd run a train for that? It probably does come all the way from Dublin for the very good reason that it would be cheaper and would be delivered right to the door instead of being transhipped twice. Rail freight only makes sense in large quantities over long distances.

What about Claremorris, Kilkenny, Limerick and Cork keg trains? They were regularly anything from 8-18 wagons, with 5/6 crates on per wagon.

Hardly "more economical" to bring it by road................

Also, what ever happened to all them fertilizer trains which used to visit Ennis? All the Fert still comes in by road......

SeanW

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

I think that the Claremoris link is the Key, and may be the savior of the Limerick Waterford Railway.

If this were a game of Texas hold 'em poker, I could imagine you raising with hole cards of an unsuited pair of 2 and 4 (one of the worst hands possible).

Pointless malinvestment in railways that have no purpose (WRC) is like a worthless hand in poker - cut your losses and run, every time.

corktina

wild handlin wrote: »

What about Claremorris, Kilkenny, Limerick and Cork keg trains? They were regularly anything from 8-18 wagons, with 5/6 crates on per wagon.

Hardly "more economical" to bring it by road................

Also, what ever happened to all them fertilizer trains which used to visit Ennis? All the Fert still comes in by road......

well were it more economical they'd still be running...why else would everything have been transferred to road...lets make a list....newspapers, parcels, post, oil, cement, need I go on? Rail freight is not viable because of the costs and inflexiibility of it.

think about it...if you started loading the same items on to road and rail at the same time, the first lorry would be half way there before you loaded the 18th wagon, which when it was loaded would have to be unloaded on to a truck at the other end for delivery with more delay.Its a fact of life.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

well were it more economical they'd still be running...why else would everything have been transferred to road...lets make a list....newspapers, parcels, post, oil, cement, need I go on? Rail freight is not viable because of the costs and inflexiibility of it.

think about it...if you started loading the same items on to road and rail at the same time, the first lorry would be half way there before you loaded the 18th wagon, which when it was loaded would have to be unloaded on to a truck at the other end for delivery with more delay.Its a fact of life.

corktina - I sometimes wonder if it is worth arguing with your posts, no matter how outrageous, as we are both so entrenched in our views but I can't let the above go unchallenged. Does it follow from your first paragraph that because CIE can't operate the railway effectively that railways are bad per se? I think not. Newspapers - I don't know the problems here but probably to do with CIE hiking up the rates and, from my experience, careless handling of the products concerned. Everybody's business being nobody's business.
Parcels - well no point in going over old ground here but suffice to say that the run down and abandonment of Fastrack was outrageous and somebody should lose their job over it - preferably John LYnch. Post - well given An Post's record of dicking about with the postal service and the SDS fiasco I don't think we can put much store in their commercial nous can we?
Oil - I don't have the facts but it wasn't a very substantial traffic. Cement - many factors and if the recession ever lifts we may well see some of it return to rail - of course factors like Sean Quinn's breaking of the Irish Cement monopoly also played a part in the demise in cement traffic.

Your analogy with loading wagons and lorries simultaneously is too daft to comment on and there were plenty of freight customers happy to use the rail service until CIE/IE either withdrew it or priced themselves out of the market.
Rail freight is environmentally friendly in terms of carbon emissions, damage to roads, accidents involving trucks and cars, reducing our oil imports etc.etc. All that said, rail freight no more than rail passenger has any future as operated by CIE/IE where the staff mark time as best they can while waiting for the lump.

corktina

agree or disagree i dont mind (and I agree with a lot of what you say), but the basic fact is trains dont go where people want them to and lorries do.

Whats daft about loading 18 lorries for 18 destinations rather than 18 rail wagons at least 17 of which will need their loads transhipped at the end of the journey onto a lorry for final delivery and probably the cargo arrived at the point of departure on a truck in the first place.

Oh and as for enviromentally friendly carbon-footprint type nonsense, does that arguement have any credence left at all when a certain volcanoe spewed out enough carbon to cover most of the North Atlantic and Europe?