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Rail Freight & Western Rail Corridor

  • 11-06-2010 5:10pm
    #1
    Empire o de Sun
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭


    What is that status of the Western rail corridor in terms of usage by rail freight?

    If there is none, was it rebuilt with the loading gauge of railfreight in mind?
    Can it take the 201 loco?


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Comments

  • #2
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    It can take a 201 loco. There was one over it in April on a rail tour. As for freight, I don't know of any potential flows between Galway and Limerick.


  • #3
    Hoof Hearted
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Hoof Hearted


    And at over 110 tonnes the 201 class would probably be heavier than the heaviest freight car.
    If the link to Claremorris is completed, only then might there be some business case for running from Ballina to Waterford. But even then it might be still faster and cheaper running freight through Kildare. So short of major coal or mineral discovery on the West coast near the line, I would think the freight levels will be low to non-existant.


  • #4
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    there is no western rail corridor...its a secondary route from Limerick to near Galway..freight potental zero ( dont believe me? how much frieght runs from Tralee or Sligo or Derry or Belfast or Cork?


  • #5
    rainbowdash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    corktina wrote: »
    there is no western rail corridor...its a secondary route from Limerick to near Galway..freight potental zero ( dont believe me? how much frieght runs from Tralee or Sligo or Derry or Belfast or Cork?

    Saying there is zero freight potential is a bit extreme, as said already, at the very least if Claremorris is reopened then the Ballina freight is a possibility.

    There are big plans for Galway port including a rail head so somebody better tell them quickly not to bother if what you are saying is correct.

    The Ballina operation seems to indicate that moving boxes around the country by rail is viable if managed correctly, and surely there is potential there, especially given the tolls on the roads for trucks.


  • #6
    Empire o de Sun
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Empire o de Sun


    I think that the Claremoris link is the Key, and may be the savior of the Limerick Waterford Railway.


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  • #7
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    rainbowdash wrote: »
    Saying there is zero freight potential is a bit extreme, as said already, at the very least if Claremorris is reopened then the Ballina freight is a possibility.

    There are big plans for Galway port including a rail head so somebody better tell them quickly not to bother if what you are saying is correct.

    The Ballina operation seems to indicate that moving boxes around the country by rail is viable if managed correctly, and surely there is potential there, especially given the tolls on the roads for trucks.


    There is little potential and the little there is doesn't justify the Western Rail Corridor. This is not a Hollywood movie where "build it and they will come" applies.


  • #8
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Empire o de Sun wrote: »
    I think that the Claremoris link is the Key, and may be the savior of the Limerick Waterford Railway.

    Whats the weather like on that planet?:D


  • #9
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    DW - which rail tour was that? The Mark III railtour was an 071.

    I'd be more worried about whether the Cahir viaduct would take a 201. What's the heaviest load it's taken since the repair?


  • #10
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,236 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Hoof Hearted wrote: »
    If the link to Claremorris is completed, only then might there be some business case for running from Ballina to Waterford.
    But this already exists. I'd much rather spend €2m adding a shot bit of track for running around at Kildare than spend tens, if not hundreds of millions on the WRC.

    Hoping that super ships will operate to Galway is delirious - is well away from normal shipping lanes. In any case, rail only works over long distance. Mayo-Galway isn't long distance.


  • #11
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    exactly.Diverting existing traffic over the route as an exercise in saying "look what a great idea it was to spend millions on this line " is pure lunacy.


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  • #12
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    dowlingm wrote: »
    DW - which rail tour was that? The Mark III railtour was an 071.

    I'd be more worried about whether the Cahir viaduct would take a 201. What's the heaviest load it's taken since the repair?


    OOpps!

    My mistake. It was indeed an 071. Further proof that Im just not in the enthusiast club.:D


  • #13
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Empire o de Sun wrote: »
    I think that the Claremoris link is the Key, and may be the savior of the Limerick Waterford Railway.

    Yeh right, Claremorris the new Clapham Junction of our fair isle.....keept taking the pills.


  • #14
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Claremorris-Athenry would open up some slots on Athlone-Westport/Ballina, Athlone-Portarlington, Portarlington-Kildare and Kildare-Waterford for movements currently blocked, although it wouldn't affect the North Wall traffic. Given IE's throwing shapes at improvements on Kildare-Waterford passenger, Belview traffic could find itself unwelcome soon. It would also offer a massive cut in the deadheading distance of the current Ballina-Limerick maintenance shuttle.

    However, the reality is that there are few slots available Athenry-Galway and IE's crosshairs are lining up on Limerick Junction-Waterford. Unless Mayo and Galway County Councils were going to do an aboutface and co-fund this section (and with what money? The Co. Co.s are broke!) it just won't happen. IE say that the freight trains from Mayo take 3,000 trucks off the road, but neither the government, the NRA or the county councils remunerate IE for that.


  • #15
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    that three thou is probably 1500 each way per annum....or 6 vehicles in total.... those statistics are so woolly that you can make them say anything. There is no doubt in my mind that there would NOT be 3000 extra trucks appear should these services stop running.


  • #16
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    52 weeks a year x 4 x 2 (ways) is 416 train movements, probably a few less around Christmas etc. Obviously it should have read "truck movements" rather than trucks but that's not how press releases are written. Each truck would run about 320km in each direction to Belview or 250km to North Wall.


  • #17
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    its not a lot of truck movements when you break it down though is it....


  • #18
    wild handlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭wild handlin


    corktina wrote: »
    its not a lot of truck movements when you break it down though is it....


    On average of 9,000 per year if my maths is correct........


  • #19
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Claremorris-Athenry would open up some slots on Athlone-Westport/Ballina, Athlone-Portarlington, Portarlington-Kildare and Kildare-Waterford for movements currently blocked, although it wouldn't affect the North Wall traffic. Given IE's throwing shapes at improvements on Kildare-Waterford passenger, Belview traffic could find itself unwelcome soon. It would also offer a massive cut in the deadheading distance of the current Ballina-Limerick maintenance shuttle.

    However, the reality is that there are few slots available Athenry-Galway and IE's crosshairs are lining up on Limerick Junction-Waterford. Unless Mayo and Galway County Councils were going to do an aboutface and co-fund this section (and with what money? The Co. Co.s are broke!) it just won't happen. IE say that the freight trains from Mayo take 3,000 trucks off the road, but neither the government, the NRA or the county councils remunerate IE for that.


    Is that 3,000 truck journeys a day or a year?

    If it is a year, for the expenditure it would be like saying buy me a helicopter and you take my car journeys off the road.

    More lunacy.


  • #20
    wild handlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭wild handlin


    Godge wrote: »
    Is that 3,000 truck journeys a day or a year?

    If it is a year, for the expenditure it would be like saying buy me a helicopter and you take my car journeys off the road.

    More lunacy.


    How?

    The companies pay for the use of the trains for freight, not the tax payer!! (Whats left of) Railfreight turns a profit.


  • #21
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i doubt it turns a profit if you add in the real costs of the extra signalling and mangement time etc....


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  • #22
    Empire o de Sun
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Empire o de Sun


    Well a fully loaded HGV can do as much damage as almost 10,000 cars.

    Yes ten thousand.

    So one trains load is what, about 18 cars, 18 x 10000 = 180,000 car equivalents, capacity of the M50, so now you know what trucks do to our roads.

    Now even if the train isn't fully loaded, it is still at 100,000 or more.

    So Rail freight is saving us a fortune on road maintenance.


  • #23
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Empire o de Sun wrote: »
    Well a fully loaded HGV can do as much damage as almost 10,000 cars.

    Yes ten thousand.

    So one trains load is what, about 18 cars, 18 x 10000 = 180,000 car equivalents, capacity of the M50, so now you know what trucks do to our roads.

    Now even if the train isn't fully loaded, it is still at 100,000 or more.

    So Rail freight is saving us a fortune on road maintenance.

    evidence please! if this were true every truck would be leaving a wake of broken tarmac and potholes...


  • #24
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,236 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    corktina wrote: »
    evidence please! if this were true every truck would be leaving a wake of broken tarmac and potholes...

    It is disproportionate, but I'm not sure if its that disproprotionate.


  • #25
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Empire o de Sun wrote: »
    Well a fully loaded HGV can do as much damage as almost 10,000 cars.

    Yes ten thousand.

    So one trains load is what, about 18 cars, 18 x 10000 = 180,000 car equivalents, capacity of the M50, so now you know what trucks do to our roads.

    Now even if the train isn't fully loaded, it is still at 100,000 or more.

    So Rail freight is saving us a fortune on road maintenance.


    Firstly, I find that number hard to believe. HGVs are heavier than cars, I can understand but 10,000 times the damage?

    Secondly, if the weight of the HGV proportionally does that much damage to the roads, it also does it to rail. So the money saved in road maintenance is wasted on rail maintenance (as well as the money wasted on building the thing and keeping it open for the 23 passengers).


  • #26
    Empire o de Sun
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Empire o de Sun


    Godge wrote: »
    Firstly, I find that number hard to believe. HGVs are heavier than cars, I can understand but 10,000 times the damage?

    Secondly, if the weight of the HGV proportionally does that much damage to the roads, it also does it to rail. So the money saved in road maintenance is wasted on rail maintenance (as well as the money wasted on building the thing and keeping it open for the 23 passengers).


    Got the number originally from Highway Design when i was in college years ago. The 10,000 was a gestimate, as I couldn't remember the exact number.

    Found this web site, it states 9600 cars. It's an american web site, and is based on a 36 tonne HGV,

    http://www.saferoads.org/issues/fs-trucks.htm

    Just because a Lorry weighs the same as 40 cars doesn't mean that the damage is equivalent to 40 cars.

    Trucks cos us allot of money. Regional roads can't take their weight. From experience regional roads have very little in them for a foundation, and the road pavement is thin. This is fine if traffic is just cars, but lorries will grind it down

    Just look at O'Connell Street. The surface has to be replaced already cos of the volume of bus traffic in the bus lane. Where as the car lane is fine. But this was more to do with the spec of the material that it didn't last.


  • #27
    Empire o de Sun
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Empire o de Sun


    corktina wrote: »
    evidence please! if this were true every truck would be leaving a wake of broken tarmac and potholes...

    They do, look at any regional road with high volumes of HGVs.


  • #28
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Godge wrote: »
    Firstly, I find that number hard to believe. HGVs are heavier than cars, I can understand but 10,000 times the damage?

    Secondly, if the weight of the HGV proportionally does that much damage to the roads, it also does it to rail. So the money saved in road maintenance is wasted on rail maintenance (as well as the money wasted on building the thing and keeping it open for the 23 passengers).

    Rail is designed for heavier loads than roads which in many cases were never "designed" at all (just being gradual sucessions of tarmac thrown down on old cart tracks). Consider how much a passenger train weighs to begin with!


  • #29
    rainbowdash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    corktina wrote: »
    i doubt it turns a profit if you add in the real costs of the extra signalling and mangement time etc....

    And the trucks pay a motor tax of €2000 (not sure exactly) does this cover the cost of road maintenance, traffic lights, the guards to police the roads, etc. etc. I doubt it.


  • #30
    wild handlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭wild handlin


    corktina wrote: »
    i doubt it turns a profit if you add in the real costs of the extra signalling and mangement time etc....

    So I presume Navan - Drogheda is entirely funded by the tax payer?

    I read that in 2008 railfreight accounted for 1.3% of all IE's train movements, yet it accounted for 10% of it's revinue. Seems like a no brainer to use railfreight....

    Also, I can't see how a freight train would "damage" tracks any more than a passenger train. Remember, all trains, be it passenger/freight have to stick to an axle loading and not exceed it.

    Regarding lorries doing more damage to roads than car's. Yes I agree. One only has to look at a road which has a serious volume of HGV traffic per day - which has not been rebuilt in the past 15 years.


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  • #31
    Jim Martin
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Jim Martin


    corktina wrote: »
    there is no western rail corridor...its a secondary route from Limerick to near Galway..freight potental zero ( dont believe me? how much frieght runs from Tralee or Sligo or Derry or Belfast or Cork?

    Yes, there is potential for freight to & from the Clare county town, Ennis. They cut it out & withdrew to Limerick & then had to road it, they've probably lost it all together now!

    This time of the year, I used to see The IR lorry come from Ennis loaded with Guiness for the Willie Clancy Week. It probably comes all the way from Dublin now - disgraceful!


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