England vs Australia June 12th, kick-off 18.05 local time (11am Irish Time)

Judgement Day

Venue: Subiaco Oval, Perth

Australia: 15 James O'Connor, 14 Digby Ioane, 13 Rob Horne, 12 Berrick Barnes, 11 Drew Mitchell, 10 Quade Cooper, 9 Luke Burgess, 8 Richard Brown, 7 David Pocock, 6 Rocky Elsom (c), 5 Nathan Sharpe, 4 Dean Mumm, 3 Salesi Ma'afu, 2 Saia Faingaa, 1 Ben Daley.
Replacements: 16 Huia Edmonds, 17 James Slipper, 18 Mark Chisholm, 19 Matt Hodgson, 20 Will Genia, 21 Peter Hynes, 22 Kurtley Beale.

England: 15 Ben Foden, 14 Mark Cueto, 13 Mike Tindall, 12 Shontayne Hape, 11 Chris Ashton, 10 Toby Flood, 9 Danny Care, 8 Nick Easter, 7 Lewis Moody (c), 6 Tom Croft, 5 Tom Palmer, 4 Simon Shaw, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Steve Thompson, 1 Tim Payne.
Replacements: 16 George Chuter, 17 David Wilson, 18 Courtney Lawes, 19 James Haskell, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Jonny Wilkinson, 22 Mathew Tait.

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Vinny Munro (New Zealand)

More information and preview here: http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_6200867,00.html

Should be a cracker and never mind what the ABE brigade say, Jonny Wilkinson's England are on the way back. England to win @ 3/1 and to win by more than 9 (possibly suicidal) look tempting.

danthefan

Is it not 11am Irish time?

And your Wilkinson obsession is strange. He really isn't anywhere near as good as you think he is.

redroar1942

You'd be better off burning your money JD. At least then it would keep you warm for a few seconds.

Hate Burgess at 9 but Genia will cause havoc when he comes on.

Judgement Day

danthefan wrote: »

Is it not 11am Irish time?

And your Wilkinson obsession is strange. He really isn't anywhere near as good as you think he is.

Sorry about that you're dead right - 11am Irish Time - can a Mod please alter title. Thanks.

As for my Jonny Wilkinson obsession well I know Wikipedia isn't 100% reliable but when you look at his statistics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonny_Wilkinson and then take into account the amount of game time that he has missed due to injury he is ****ing incredible - by far the greatest player to ever put on an England jersey and one of the greatest that I have ever had the pleasure of watching. My only concern is that when he retires (at 40+) will my interest in rugby evaporate as my interest in cricket did when Ian Botham hung up his bat.

danthefan

Judgement Day wrote: »

Sorry about that you're dead right - 11am Irish Time - can a Mod please alter title. Thanks.

As for my Jonny Wilkinson obsession well I know Wikipedia isn't 100% reliable but when you look at his statistics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonny_Wilkinson and then take into account the amount of game time that he has missed due to injury he is ****ing incredible - by far the greatest player to ever put on an England jersey and one of the greatest that I have ever had the pleasure of watching. My only concern is that when he retires (at 40+) will my interest in rugby evaporate as my interest in cricket did when Ian Botham hung up his bat.

He kicked a lot of points, obviously. Stephen Larkham kicked basically none, he was still a better 10 than Wilkinson. Kicking stats are not everything. He didn't win all the penalties or score all the tries he converted.

redroar1942

danthefan wrote: »

He kicked a lot of points, obviously. Stephen Larkham kicked basically none, he was still a better 10 than Wilkinson. Kicking stats are not everything. He didn't win all the penalties or score all the tries he converted.

I dont think you can compare the two they were such different style players. Larkham was a beautiful distributor and running 10 where as Wilko was the ultimate percentage player. Both had great defence too but in terms of importance to their respective teams at the time I think Oz could have survived without Bernie but England would have been dead without Wilkinson.

danthefan

redroar1942 wrote: »

I dont think you can compare the two they were such different style players. Larkham was a beautiful distributor and running 10 where as Wilko was the ultimate percentage player. Both had great defence too but in terms of importance to their respective teams at the time I think Oz could have survived without Bernie but England would have been dead without Wilkinson.

That's a fairly bold claim. He was a wonderful player and to the best of my knowledge reach 100 caps. He was part of the Aus team for a very long time. Who could have replaced him?

redroar1942

danthefan wrote: »

That's a fairly bold claim. He was a wonderful player and to the best of my knowledge reach 100 caps. He was part of the Aus team for a very long time. Who could have replaced him?

No no its not a slight against Bernie, fabulous player who was continually under rated, just that Englands game was so built around Wilkinson that they couldn't live without him.

Australia played a much less structured game plan and had such serious talent from 9 to 15 that they could have compensated for Larkhams absence. They could have played the very young Matt Giteau and still made the final.

My point wasn't about who the better player was just that Wilkinson was more important to England then Larkham to Australia.

Judgement Day

danthefan wrote: »

He kicked a lot of points, obviously. Stephen Larkham kicked basically none, he was still a better 10 than Wilkinson. Kicking stats are not everything. He didn't win all the penalties or score all the tries he converted.

Jonny has certainly kicked a lot of points and just how often has an English win depended solely on his form with the boot. The 2003 WC final being a case in point.
Anyway some of us need our heroes to help carry us through the vale of tears.

subfreq

1999 Bernie did exactly the same thing to win the WC for the Aussies. He is still one of the players I enjoyed watching play the most.

danthefan

subfreq wrote: »

1999 Bernie did exactly the same thing to win the WC for the Aussies. He is still one of the players I enjoyed watching play the most.

Pretty sure his DG was in the semi, they hammered France then in the final.

subfreq

Absolutely sorry. I am totally wrong there. Still a vital drop and I think it was his only drop goal as a wallaby.

danthefan

subfreq wrote: »

Absolutely sorry. I am totally wrong there. Still a vital drop and I think it was his only drop goal as a wallaby.

I've just had a look on Wikipedia, it says no Aus player on the field at the time had ever scored a DG in international rugby. He was near the halfway line and he could barely run at the time with his knee, it really was incredible.

thomond2006

Judgement Day wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonny_Wilkinson and then take into account the amount of game time that he has missed due to injury he is ****ing incredible - by far the greatest player to ever put on an England jersey and one of the greatest that I have ever had the pleasure of watching.

Ah here, that's ridiculous. Johnson, Leonard, Hill and Dallaglio are all ahead of Wilkinson.

Are you sure you're not Alistair Campbell? Because your opinions on Jonny spin me right round baby right round like a record baby....;)

redroar1942

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ah here, that's ridiculous. Johnson, Leonard, Hill and Dallaglio are all ahead of Wilkinson.

Are you sure you're not Alistair Campbell? Because your opinions on Jonny spin me right round baby right round like a record baby....;)

Jason Leonard :pac::pac:

Before someone throws a bag of stats at me I know he had a thousand caps and played in every tournament for 15 years.

funky penguin

He's entitled to idolise who he wants.

Perhaps we should discuss the game? I think it'll be close, but cannot see past an Aussie win.

Judgement Day

Finding somewhere to watch the game is my first concern. Just returned from a scout around Enniscorthy to find somewhere open at 11am with a TV not commandeered by soccer supporters. Hayes in Court Street is looking good if anyone is interested. However, it seems that there is an overlap with South Korea vs Greece which starts at 12.30, so even with 3 screens there's no guarantee. Sadly there's nobody opening in time for the Ireland match so it's search for a stream.

Anyway, it's a big ask for England who in my opinion are a bit like Ospreys, plenty of talented players but not gelling as a team. Is it too much to hope that, like Ospreys, things will come right for them when it matters.

thomond2006

funky penguin wrote: »

He's entitled to idolise who he wants.

Perhaps we should discuss the game? I think it'll be close, but cannot see past an Aussie win.

All in jest of course.

England will be looking at dominating the set piece IMO. Hartley's lineout throwing was poor in the Six Nations so maybe his absence is a blessing in disguise.
I don't know much about the Aussie front row but it's very inexperienced (enforced with Robinson, Alexander, Moore and Polota-Nau all out). They have 2/3 caps between them. For England, Tim Payne is an average player, I can't believe MJ didn't give Golding a run after his performance against the Baa Baas.

I doubt England will try to play expansive rugby, their two centres are built for getting over the game line. They will be reliant on Shaw as a ball carrier, I don't rate Palmer much.

I'd say Australia will go out and try to play some rugby. Burgess at 9 could hinder that plan, his passing is very slow. Wouldn't be surprised if Deans hauled him off early if he underperforms, he did it to Al Baxter last year.

Giteau's absence is a big loss, I don't think Barnes is in his class (yet). If Cooper continues his Queensland form, I don't think England will be able to live with him.

Judgement Day

Thomond2006 - are you deliberately overlooking the talent on the England bench?

thomond2006

Judgement Day wrote: »

Thomond2006 - are you deliberately overlooking the talent on the England bench?

Oh yeah, Jonny Wilkinson God's Reincarnation to come off the bench and score a try like below to win the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBHjSnPfEyY

subfreq

Bit of a shame that Giteau had to pull out as, although I highly rate Barnes in general, 12 is not where he excels.

handsomecake

Judgement Day wrote: »

Sorry about that you're dead right - 11am Irish Time - can a Mod please alter title. Thanks.

As for my Jonny Wilkinson obsession well I know Wikipedia isn't 100% reliable but when you look at his statistics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonny_Wilkinson and then take into account the amount of game time that he has missed due to injury he is ****ing incredible - by far the greatest player to ever put on an England jersey and one of the greatest that I have ever had the pleasure of watching. My only concern is that when he retires (at 40+) will my interest in rugby evaporate as my interest in cricket did when Ian Botham hung up his bat.

he is an average out half. stands miles behind the gain line, poses no threat with ball in hand. excellent defender,excellent boot,ponderous in attack,over rated

redroar1942

subfreq wrote: »

Bit of a shame that Giteau had to pull out as, although I highly rate Barnes in general, 12 is not where he excels.

Giteau's form has been all over this season, if Barnes hadn't been playing so poorly this season himself Giteau wouldn't have been that much of a loss.

thomond2006

Anything happen yet?

Kiwi_knock

Nah, Australia have made a few handling errors and aimless kicks

some_dose

The Aussie commentators are hilarious! Hating on Nigel Owens already!

thomond2006

Elsom puts Ashton on his ass.

Why is JOC kicking for the Wallabies?

thomond2006

Very strong scrum from England.

thomond2006

Saia Faingaa is the spitting image of a young George Smith.

Great Aus try, finished by Elsom. Great break by Mitchell in the build up and beautiful flat passes from Cooper.

Kiwi_knock

The scrum is the only thing going right so far for England, too bad all the scrums are in their 22 so they can not convert their dominance into points

handsomecake

some_dose wrote: »

The Aussie commentators are hilarious! Hating on Nigel Owens already!

they crack me up. they are brilliant. i love when they shout TRY TIME. they love bagging the ref's too. they are biased not in a brian moore way but in a jasper carrot way

pappyodaniel

My God, the Australian rucking game is unreal. Eng are gonna get hammered if they can't retain possession. James O'Connor is looking better the more I see of him. I predict a 25 point win for Aus.

Kiwi_knock

Australia are making some horrendous handling errors

thomond2006

Owens has gotta be thinking cards for Aus front row, that's 3 penalties now.

bleg

Is that the video ref we can hear over the commentary?

Podge_irl

These Aussie commentators are hilarious. They take biased to a whole new level.

Podge_irl

bleg wrote: »

Is that the video ref we can hear over the commentary?

The French dude is the touchie, but I was hearing something else earlier as well.

pappyodaniel

The English front row is killing the inexperienced Aussie front row. I won't be surprised to see early changes, especially the loose head and the hooker Daly.

bleg

Podge_irl wrote: »

The French dude is the touchie, but I was hearing something else earlier as well.

Ah, I thought it might have been some experimental thing where the video ref watches the match, replays etc... and was giving real time advice...

thought it was a really good idea

some_dose

Nice try

Peter B

Great try by Quade "The Situation" Cooper.

some_dose

I wish the commentators on RTE were half as good/funny as the Aussie guys

handsomecake

Peter B wrote: »

Great try by Quade "The Situation" Cooper.

digging the jersey shore reference

corny

Say what you will about Luke Burgess but he's tackling like David Pocock around the fringes.

Podge_irl

England don't even remotely look like scoring.

pappyodaniel

HT score is 14-0 Aus.

Far better skills from Aus, albeit with a few unforced errors. If they had a scrum then the scoreline would be double. The English pack is big and bruising but slow to the breakdown when the ball is spread wide. That means the English are gonna keep it tight, pick and drive.

The only time there is a spark is when the ball is in the hands of a gold jersey. What I'd like to see in the 2nd half is at least one change in the Aus front row. They could slaughter the English if they have a functioning scrum.

Once again Pocock is outstanding.

theboss80

Podge_irl wrote: »

These Aussie commentators are hilarious. They take biased to a whole new level.

The whole population turns like that espically when they play England, i was there back in 2003 during world cup and it was unbelievable the ammount of arrogance every aussie had when it came to the subject of rugby and England. Hilarious stuff.

handsomecake

corny wrote: »

Say what you will about Luke Burgess but he's tackling like David Pocock around the fringes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc-w6GW9EfE

Sherifu

England held up, hard to see if Croft got it down or not.

Didn't bother with the TMO, strange.

Penalty to England from resulting scrum.

Kiwi_knock

England do not deserve to be this close

Risteard

I love seeing a scrum march forward. As long as it's not a Munster or Irish one on the receiving end.