Finally, Saville report issued.

ejmaztec

I wonder what the next step is?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/10/bloody-sunday-inquiry-northern-ireland

Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

Soldiers face prosecution over fatal civilian shootings after 12-year inquiry publishes findings



The long-awaited report into the Bloody Sunday massacre will conclude that a number of the fatal shootings of civilians by British soldiers were unlawful killings, the Guardian has learned.
Lord Saville's 12-year inquiry into the deaths, the longest public inquiry in British legal history, will conclude with a report published next Tuesday, putting severe pressure on the Public Prosecution Service in Northern Ireland to prosecute soldiers.
Lord Trimble, the former leader of the Ulster Unionists and one of the architects of the Good Friday agreement, revealed to the Guardian that when Tony Blair agreed to the inquiry in 1998, he warned the then prime minister that any conclusion that departed "one millimetre" from the earlier 1972 Widgery report into the killings would lead to "soldiers in the dock".

OutlawPete

Soldiers I might add, that refused to travel to the court and put the families through unnecessary torment for years making them jump through hoops that they should never have had to.

dlofnep

It's about time the truth came out. This is a great result for the families.

Dudess

Whoever ordered the opening of fire is more accountable than those who did the actual shooting.

ciano1

Thought it was a Brummytom thread from the title

rovert

Im not interested in a history lesson

dlofnep

Dudess wrote: »

Whoever ordered the opening of fire is more accountable than those who did the actual shooting.

That would be Colonel Wilford, who was awared an OBE for his work in Derry.

dlofnep

rovert wrote: »

Im not interested in a history lesson

The report hasn't even been released yet. How is it history?

My name is URL

The sad thing is that such a prolific and intense debate took almost 30 years for a reasonable agreement on what happeed to be reached. Will it be another 30 years before the war crimes being carried out today are decided upon?

gurramok

If its true, it will probably the first time British soldiers will be held accountable for shooting unarmed civilians in NI.

OutlawPete

rovert wrote: »

Im not interested in a history lesson

This isn't "history".

It's current affairs.

Get over yourself.

KevinVonSpiel

Dudess wrote: »

Whoever ordered the opening of fire is more accountable than those who did the actual shooting.

So those who did the actual shooting were just following orders?

rovert

OutlawPete wrote: »

This isn't "history".

It's current affairs.

Get over yourself.

Too funny

dlofnep

KevinVonSpiel wrote: »

So those who did the actual shooting were just following orders?

Nah, they were responsible too. I doubt Wilford said to his men - "Hey, if you see a man waving a white flag trying to bring a dieing man to safety, shoot him in the back of the head".

Dudess

KevinVonSpiel wrote: »

So those who did the actual shooting were just following orders?

Yes. Not saying they hold no accountability whatsoever, but I don't agree with objections to the "following orders" defence. Very easy to say you'd just walk away on a matter of principle and to hell with the consequences, but you don't know until you're actually in that situation where everything is happening so quickly.

dlofnep

rovert wrote: »

Too funny

It's actually not funny. You're just looking like a smug old sock. It would have been history if the original report had of been a valid account of what happened. But it wasn't. it's of no fault to the bereaved families that it's taken this long for them to see justice. I've personally spoken to them - and can comment that they were still profoundly hurt by the response by the British Government. Not only did the soldiers get away with what they done - their leader was awarded an OBE for his trouble.

But then again - what's it to you, so long as you get to make your cheap comment, right?

rovert

dlofnep wrote: »

It's actually not funny. You're just looking like a smug old sock. It would have been history if the original report had of been a valid account of what happened. But it wasn't. it's of no fault to the bereaved families that it's taken this long for them to see justice. I've personally spoken to them - and can comment that they were still profoundly hurt by the response by the British Government. Not only did the soldiers get away with what they done - their leader was awarded an OBE for his trouble.

But then again - what's it to you, so long as you get to make your cheap comment, right?

*facepalms at the ignorance of this post*

oh someone lecture me on current affairs in response to my first post again. CLASSIC

Micky Dolenz

This is an interesting topic so lets not ruin it with needless messing,please.

Splendour

Dudess wrote: »

Whoever ordered the opening of fire is more accountable than those who did the actual shooting.

Those who fired the shots had a choice-whatever the consequences. All were equally accountable...

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Splendour wrote: »

Those who fired the shots had a choice-whatever the consequences. All were equally accountable...

But soldiers are trained to follow orders and not question them. Such questioning could lead to a court martial. And they act on the information and orders they are given.

Of course if it's proven that they acted outside of their orders then they should rightly be damned

Sharpshooter

rovert wrote: »

Im not interested in a history lesson

Stop reading so!

rovert wrote: »

Too funny

.

rovert wrote: »

*facepalms at the ignorance of this post*

oh someone lecture me on current affairs in response to my first post again. CLASSIC

Stop trolling!

Splendour

Camilo Gentle Wildlife wrote: »

But soldiers are trained to follow orders and not question them. Such questioning could lead to a court martial. And they act on the information and orders they are given.

Of course if it's proven that they acted outside of their orders then they should rightly be damned

Not question them outloud but I'm sure there are many who know deep down at times that the orders they are given go against humanity. They are first and foremost people and secondly soldiers.

Dudess

Splendour wrote: »

Those who fired the shots had a choice-whatever the consequences. All were equally accountable...

Certainly accountable, but I wouldn't agree that they were all equally accountable. After all, if it wasn't for the orders, the solders wouldn't have done the shooting.

gurramok

It says in the link that 'Soldier F' shot 4-6 unarmed people. Thats mass murder by the soldier and if following orders also mass murder by the superior officer. A soldier should know right from wrong and clearly this is a wrong.

WindSock

dlofnep wrote: »

The report hasn't even been released yet. How is it history?

It is ongoing until someone is made accountable for the murder of civillians in a civil rights demo.

Son Of A Vidic

It's truly hard to believe that the families of the Bloody Sunday victims, are still waiting for justice all these years later. Yet ironically, it comes as no surprise really.

KrazeeEyezKilla

I'm amazed the victims have got this much. Hopefully someone will be made accountable.

Morlar

It will be interesting to see how this pans out, if they are convicted I wonder will 'the sun' have a petittion campaign for their release like they did with lee clegg.

K-9

Much remembered around these parts. Indeed, I had a conversation just a few weeks ago about this. Many people from where I am from, remember the funerals and the abuses they suffered to attend them.

Whatever your beliefs or feelings on it, it cast a long, dark shadow on future events in Northern Ireland. Prolonged the "Troubles" by a few years, at the very least, resulting in more needless deaths.

Dudess

K-9 wrote: »

Many people from where I am from, remember the funerals and the abuses they suffered to attend them.

:mad:

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

:mad:

I know, but it's coming up to the 40 year anniversary now.

People should never forget but learn to forgive, learn and move on. Reminds me of a few posters (Real posters not Boards.ie ones!) I seen last year from that day. Shivers down the spine stuff!

Dudess

I personally could never forgive without an apology though. I know some people are capable of forgiving without anything to prompt it - and that's really strong - but I don't have that in me. Genuine remorse though, different story. I think there needs to be demonstrations of genuine remorse here...

Then again, it would be important not to let yourself be overcome by bitterness and rage - extremely damaging to yourself and those around you... Easier said than done though. I can't begin to imagine what this has done to members of the families in terms of depression, turning to alcohol etc. The atrocity itself, then the ensuing indifference - talk about a double whammy...

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

I personally could never forgive without an apology though. I know some people are capable of forgiving without anything to prompt it - and that's really strong - but I don't have that in me. Genuine remorse though, different story. I think there needs to be demonstrations of genuine remorse here...

I don't now, has there not been apologies, maybe not from the particular individuals, but from British Government sources?

Look, I remember Shoot to Kill too, Castlereagh etc and on the other side Enniskillen, Warrenpoint, Bloody Friday etc.

We need "genuine remorse" on both sides.

Never mind the Shankhill Butchers, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and other Loyalist atrocities.

m@cc@

Dudess wrote: »

I personally could never forgive without an apology though. I know some people are capable of forgiving without anything to prompt it - and that's really strong - but I don't have that in me. Genuine remorse though, different story. I think there needs to be demonstrations of genuine remorse here...

Then again, it would be important not to let yourself be overcome by bitterness and rage - extremely damaging to yourself and those around you... Easier said than done though. I can't begin to imagine what this has done to the members of the families in terms of depression, turning to alcohol etc.

Apology from who though? The British government could apologise but it would seem pretty hollow considering those in power had nothing to do with it.

K-9 wrote: »

We need "genuine remorse" on both sides.

Last time I looked, the British Army weren't supposed to be a terrorist organisation, they're supposed to be an arm of the state. The IRA represent themselves and their supporters, I am neither.

Dudess

m@cc@ wrote: »

Apology from who though? The British government could apologise but it would seem pretty hollow considering those in power had nothing to do with it.

Those who ordered the shootings, those who carried them out...

m@cc@

Dudess wrote: »

Those who ordered the shootings, those who carried them out...

That's never going to happen though.

Dudess

K-9 wrote: »

We need "genuine remorse" on both sides.

Of course. I would say the very same thing about e.g. Enniskillen.

K-9

m@cc@ wrote: »

Apology from who though? The British government could apologise but it would seem pretty hollow considering those in power had nothing to do with it.



Last time I looked, the British Army weren't supposed to be a terrorist organisation, they're supposed to be an arm of the state. The IRA represent themselves and their supporters, I am neither.

Considering it was under a Northern Ireland Government and not direct Westminster rule, they should be looking for apologies from the Stormont Govt, of that time.

In many ways, Bloody Sunday was the last straw for Westminster, that is, the British Govt. Enough was enough for them and all and they couldn't trust Stormont in anyway, anymore.

Gunsfortoys

This is too little too late as far as i'm concerned, lets hope the families can move on after whatever little justice comes from the joke of an inquiry. They should have been accountable years ago but instead they dragged it on and on causing devastation and divide between the people of Northern Ireland.

RIP to the victims and I hope this finally closes another ugly chapter of the troubles.

K-9

m@cc@ wrote: »

Last time I looked, the British Army weren't supposed to be a terrorist organisation, they're supposed to be an arm of the state. The IRA represent themselves and their supporters, I am neither.

Indeed, that would be why I mentioned shoot to kill. RUC officers bravely acknowledged they were arms of state and above terrorism, well, supposedly, above it.

Unfortunately the IRA and SF did not see themselves as just representing themselves then. They seen themselves as freedom fighters and fighting wars. You may not agree with that, they did.

m@cc@

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, that would be why I mentioned shoot to kill. RUC officers bravely acknowledged they were arms of state and above terrorism, well, supposedly, above it.

Unfortunately the IRA and SF did not see themselves as just representing themselves then. They seen themselves as freedom fighters and fighting wars. You may not agree with that, they did.

I just don't see Bloody Sunday as comparable to anything else in the Troubles - it can't be looked at in isolation, I know that. If it had been carried out by the B-Specials or UVF, I'd understand it. It would really have more in common with Tiananmen Square with the state carrying out killings of protesters.

K-9

m@cc@ wrote: »

I just don't see Bloody Sunday as comparable to anything else in the Troubles - it can't be looked at in isolation, I know that. If it had been carried out by the B-Specials or UVF, I'd understand it. It would really have more in common with Tiananmen Square with the state carrying out killings of protesters.

Indeed and a huge recruiting mechanism for the Provos.

It wasn't me!

The soldiers who fired bear the ultimate responsibility. There's been some waffle said already about soldiers being trained not to question orders. This is not true. A soldier who doesn't think is absolutely useless and has no place in a modern army. Soldiers are not entitled to the defence of following orders and bear full responsibility for their actions. The colonel may be disciplined (and bloody well should be if he gave a direct order to open fire) but he is not responsible for the killings. In any case, I welcome this clarity. It's about time.

m@cc@

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed and a huge recruiting mechanism for the Provos.

True enough, it and the Enniskillen bombing I see as 2 of the defining moments of the campaign. One fuelling the public appetite, the other dampening it.

Degag

Splendour wrote: »

Those who fired the shots had a choice-whatever the consequences. All were equally accountable...

I personally don't think so.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The soldiers who fired bear the ultimate responsibility. There's been some waffle said already about soldiers being trained not to question orders. This is not true. A soldier who doesn't think is absolutely useless and has no place in a modern army. Soldiers are not entitled to the defence of following orders and bear full responsibility for their actions. The colonel may be disciplined (and bloody well should be if he gave a direct order to open fire) but he is not responsible for the killings. In any case, I welcome this clarity. It's about time.

I'm sorry, but this is bull****. Soldiers ARE trained to follow orders. There is no two ways about it.

digme

Degag wrote: »

I personally don't think so.



I'm sorry, but this is bull****. Soldiers ARE trained to follow orders. There is no two ways about it.

dam robots

rovert

I guess my comment really did go over people's heads. Ill make sure to make my current affairs less current next time for the rabble rabblers...

gurramok

rovert wrote: »

I guess my comment really did go over people's heads. Ill make sure to make my current affairs less current next time for the rabble rabblers...

Its a sensitive issue for the 'rabble rabblers' as the topic relates to alot of people that died, immature comments would not go down well.

rovert

gurramok wrote: »

Its a sensitive issue for the 'rabble rabblers' as the topic relates to alot of people that died, immature comments would not go down well.

Explain how it was immature and the reference I was making as well.

gurramok

rovert wrote: »

Explain how it was immature and the reference I was making as well.

Comments like "Im not interested in a history lesson" and "Too funny". Insensitive as if they came from the schoolyard.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Splendour wrote: »

Those who fired the shots had a choice-whatever the consequences. All were equally accountable...

At the time, if orders were not carried out they may have been courtmarshaled and faced consequences of not following orders...

rovert wrote: »

I guess my comment really did go over people's heads. Ill make sure to make my current affairs less current next time for the rabble rabblers...

rovert wrote: »

Explain how it was immature and the reference I was making as well.

Would you ever just fcuk off??? Same shít different thread...