Cowen - Brazen, stupid or both?

Sizzler

Cowen's performance on Prime Time tonight coupled with his hourly soundbytes since the banking report was leaked by The Indo on Tuesday, seriously is he really so stupid that he thinks he did a good job and its OK now to look forward and accept zero responsibilty for napping on the job?

As the saying goes "neck like a jockeys bollix" - never seen a saying so suitably apt for someone, all the more gauling that he is the bloody taoiseach! The clown sat on prime time tonight and STILL claimed Lehman bros was the trigger to Ireland's woes...FFS! Spare me !

Absolutely ZERO accountability, in what other career could you make a dogs dinner of your area of responsibility and then claim you actually did a grand job and effectively walk away with no reprucussions or worse still stay in it?:eek:

He said tonight nobody could have forseen X,Y & Z, perhaps to this extent Brian but the fact is you are clueless, out of your depth, were happy to ride the gravy train and really had no idea or did not care what was actually going on your watch.

I'm sick of him and his sneery attitude, "I wont walk away, I'm here for the full term". Sorry Brian but I for one have had enough, I didn't ****ing vote for you, nobody did so give it a rest and get out.

fontanalis

Or alot of stupid people will vote FF no matter what.

Liam Byrne

I'm by no means going to defend Cowen, because his delusion and selectivity (only referencing about 1% of the reports since) is beyond comprehension.

He was, after all, Minister for Finance for a lot of this, having taken over from McCreevy.

I will, however, remind people that we were a long way up ****'s creek when Cowen was handed a certain position by his former boss...."the most cunning and devious of them all", who has since swanned off laughing his hole off while he gets chauferred around at our expense while he's meant to be at work.

And the question remains whether Cowen was just following his boss' orders (in the same way that - apparently - Ahern had signed blank cheques for Haughey).

Not questioning your boss and doing something regardless of how wrong it is ?

History repeats itself, maybe ?

BehindTheScenes

fontanalis wrote: »

Or alot of stupid people will vote FF no matter what.

Yep

I'm going with brazen and stupid. Now in what proportion I'm not to sure.

wicklowwonder

The man accepts responsibility for his mistakes! He explained time and again how he made the decisions he made, different agencies consulted etc, apologised that they were wrong decisions and now wants to move on and fix things. Fianna Fail and him have a mandate from the people and if they continue on the path we are currently on things will turn around. Growth is slowly coming back.

Let the man do his job how often does he have to apologise? The opposition is on record as saying they would have done alot more in terms of money spent duringthe good times and tax incentives. I for one applaud Mr Cowen and encourage him and Mr Lenihan to continue the work they have started doing. We can judge them on their successes and failings come election time but at the present time let them do the job they are doing.

dlofnep

I missed it. Will give it a watch later on RTE player.

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

how often does he have to apologise?

Once might do, if he bothered to. :rolleyes:

rovert

If anything he has got big balls.

Coillte_Bhoy

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The man accepts responsibility for his mistakes! He explained time and again how he made the decisions he made, different agencies consulted etc, apologised that they were wrong decisions and now wants to move on and fix things. Fianna Fail and him have a mandate from the people and if they continue on the path we are currently on things will turn around. Growth is slowly coming back.

Let the man do his job how often does he have to apologise? The opposition is on record as saying they would have done alot more in terms of money spent duringthe good times and tax incentives. I for one applaud Mr Cowen and encourage him and Mr Lenihan to continue the work they have started doing. We can judge them on their successes and failings come election time but at the present time let them do the job they are doing.

How on earth can you say he has a mandate from the people?? From who, apart from the voters of Offaly?

Kristopherus

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The man accepts responsibility for his mistakes! He explained time and again how he made the decisions he made, different agencies consulted etc, apologised that they were wrong decisions and now wants to move on and fix things. Fianna Fail and him have a mandate from the people and if they continue on the path we are currently on things will turn around. Growth is slowly coming back.

Let the man do his job how often does he have to apologise? The opposition is on record as saying they would have done alot more in terms of money spent duringthe good times and tax incentives. I for one applaud Mr Cowen and encourage him and Mr Lenihan to continue the work they have started doing. We can judge them on their successes and failings come election time but at the present time let them do the job they are doing.

When did he say "I apologise for the mess I have got this country in ?"

Barname

rovert wrote: »

If anything he has got big balls.

great, that will take care of his €100 Billion mistake

wicklowwonder

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

How on earth can you say he has a mandate from the people?? From who, apart from the voters of Offaly?

Fianna Fail got a mandate from the people at last election and every dog in the street know Bertie Ahern would not be leader of the party for the full term. Fair enough most expected him to stay until after the local elections but still the voters knew Cowen would be leader once Bertie Ahern stepped aside. Thus a mandate.....

Kristopherus wrote: »

When did he say "I apologise for the mess I have got this country in ?"

He admitted he made mistakes, said sorry and know wants to fix him. Again not all the mistakes were in his making and did get go some way to try fix them up evidently not fast enough!

Liam Byrne

rovert wrote: »

If anything he has got big balls.

"all the better to ride you with, my dear" (with apologies to the Brothers Grimm)

Kristopherus

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Fianna Fail got a mandate from the people at last election and every dog in the street know Bertie Ahern would not be leader of the party for the full term. Fair enough most expected him to stay until after the local elections but still the voters knew Cowen would be leader once Bertie Ahern stepped aside. Thus a mandate.....



He admitted he made mistakes, said sorry and know wants to fix him. Again not all the mistakes were in his making and did get go some way to try fix them up evidently not fast enough!

He has NEVER said "Sorry"

Mr.Micro

Cowen is just the Gordon Brown of Irish Politics... an unelected Prime Minister and Brown thought he would ride his luck as well and only called an election when he absolutely had to, and his party was punished.

wicklowwonder

Kristopherus wrote: »

He has NEVER said "Sorry"

Cowen admitted the mistakes and Lenihen apologised for the role Fianna Fail played in the banking crisis on the 15th of April this year I think. All in all an apology from Fianna Fail.

Laminations

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The man accepts responsibility for his mistakes!

What does 'accepting' responsibility mean?

Pronunciation: \ri-ˈspän(t)-sə-bəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Anglo-French responsable, from respuns
Date: 1643
1 a : liable to be called on to answer b (1) : liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent <a committee responsible for the job> (2) : being the cause or explanation <mechanical defects were responsible for the accident> c : liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties
2 a : able to answer for one's conduct and obligations : trustworthy b : able to choose for oneself between right and wrong
3 : marked by or involving responsibility or accountability <responsible financial policies> <a responsible job>
4 : politically answerable; especially : required to submit to the electorate if defeated by the legislature —used especially of the British cabinet

Take your pick from them, he hasn't accepted responsibility in any meaningful way, they are just words he pushes past his lips

wicklowwonder

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Cowen is just the Gordon Brown of Irish Politics... an unelected Prime Minister and Brown thought he would ride his luck as well and only called an election when he absolutely had to, and his party was punished.

Laminations wrote: »

What does 'accepting' responsibility mean?

Pronunciation: \ri-ˈspän(t)-sə-bəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Anglo-French responsable, from respuns
Date: 1643
1 a : liable to be called on to answer b (1) : liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent <a committee responsible for the job> (2) : being the cause or explanation <mechanical defects were responsible for the accident> c : liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties
2 a : able to answer for one's conduct and obligations : trustworthy b : able to choose for oneself between right and wrong
3 : marked by or involving responsibility or accountability <responsible financial policies> <a responsible job>
4 : politically answerable; especially : required to submit to the electorate if defeated by the legislature —used especially of the British cabinet

Take your pick from them, he hasn't accepted responsibility in any meaningful way, they are just words he pushes past his lips

As I said in my first post on this thread judge him at election if you are not happy.

gleep

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The man accepts responsibility for his mistakes! He explained time and again how he made the decisions he made, different agencies consulted etc, apologised that they were wrong decisions and now wants to move on and fix things. Fianna Fail and him have a mandate from the people and if they continue on the path we are currently on things will turn around. Growth is slowly coming back.

Let the man do his job how often does he have to apologise? The opposition is on record as saying they would have done alot more in terms of money spent duringthe good times and tax incentives. I for one applaud Mr Cowen and encourage him and Mr Lenihan to continue the work they have started doing. We can judge them on their successes and failings come election time but at the present time let them do the job they are doing.

Mandate my arse!

Laminations

wicklowwonder wrote: »

As I said in my first post on this thread judge him at election if you are not happy.

I will, will you?

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Cowen admitted the mistakes and Lenihen apologised for the role Fianna Fail played in the banking crisis on the 15th of April this year I think. All in all an apology from Fianna Fail.

That's not what you claimed earlier.

You claimed that Cowen had apologised. For his actions.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

He admitted he made mistakes, said sorry

Are you retracting that ?

Mr.Micro

wicklowwonder wrote: »

As I said in my first post on this thread judge him at election if you are not happy.

Its a pity, no a disgrace that the voters in the 3 outstanding by-elections cannot vote at the minute to judge Cowen.

gleep

[QUOTE=
Take your pick from them, he hasn't accepted responsibility in any meaningful way, they are just words/lies he pushes past his lips[/QUOTE]

Fixed that for you

wicklowwonder

Laminations wrote: »

I will, will you?

I will judge the government at the next general election on how well they have performed through out their whole term. And I will only judge at the end of the term.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's not what you claimed earlier.

You claimed that Cowen had apologised.

Are you retracting that ?

No I am not retracting anything I have said, what I consider an apology and others do obviously is different so I found you an example of someone in power uttering the word "sorry"...

As I said he is leading his government at the minute and they are taking the right steps the country is turning a corner growth is slowly returning and let them continue and let us punters judge them at election time.

Kristopherus

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Cowen admitted the mistakes and Lenihen apologised for the role Fianna Fail played in the banking crisis on the 15th of April this year I think. All in all an apology from Fianna Fail.

I dont know what fabulous fantasy land you live in if you think FF will ever apologize for anything. The sun will rise in the West first.

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

No I am not retracting anything I have said, what I consider an apology and others do obviously is different so I found you an example of someone in power uttering the word "sorry"...

You said - and I quote - that "he said sorry". You used the word yourself.

Now you're "finding of an example of someone [ else entirely ] in power uttering the word 'sorry'"

Ridiculous back-pedalling, but in keeping with the topic.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

let us punters judge them at election time.

Firstly, if he wasn't subverting democracy, that election time would be now.

Secondly, will your kind self allow us to judge him based on his entire track record, or will we only be allowed to judge from now onwards ?

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Firstly, if he wasn't subverting democracy, that election time would be now.

Secondly, will your kind self allow us to judge him based on his entire track record, or will we only be allowed to judge from now onwards ?

How is he subverting democracy? Once he has a majority in the Dail he is entitled to be in power for five years, so he has two years to run before our democratic constitution insists he calls an election. Even if he lost the two by-elections he would still have a majority in the Dail so no subverting justice my good friend...

Yes judge the government on the performance for its full length in power I would expect nothing less from the educated man i assume you are?

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

How is he subverting democracy? Once he has a majority in the Dail he is entitled to be in power for five years, so he has two years to run before our democratic constitution insists he calls an election. Even if he lost the two by-elections he would still have a majority in the Dail so no subverting justice my good friend...

In addition to the two by-elections, he refused to hold the vote of confidence today.

As for judging on full performance, well since you completely avoided replying to the fact that he didn't say sorry, I have doubts about whether you'll be judging him on what he said and did versus what you want to pretend that he said or did.

Mr.Micro

wicklowwonder wrote: »

How is he subverting democracy? Once he has a majority in the Dail he is entitled to be in power for five years, so he has two years to run before our democratic constitution insists he calls an election. Even if he lost the two by-elections he would still have a majority in the Dail so no subverting justice my good friend...

Yes judge the government on the performance for its full length in power I would expect nothing less from the educated man i assume you are?

Why is Cowen then scared to let the by-elections take place? These constituencies have a right to be represented in a democracy. Cowen et al are denying them this right for the sake of keeping him in power.

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In addition to the two by-elections, he refused to hold the vote of confidence today.

As for judging on full performance, well since you completely avoided replying to the fact that he didn't say sorry, I have doubts about whether you'll be judging him on what he said and did versus what you want to pretend that he said or did.

It was agreed last week no major votes or Leaders questions would take place this week. Thus delaying it till Tuesday, if anything this is an advantage to Fine Gael who can try muster some support amound FF backbenchers or Greens to support the motion.

This whole obsession with the word "sorry", the man admitted he made mistakes, he admitted the advice he got was wrong. I will judge Fianna Fail on the their performance like I am sure you will. I will also judge them on the fact the whole world is in recession and how well we recover, if we do before the next general election.

wicklowwonder

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Why is Cowen then scared to let the by-elections take place? These constituencies have a right to be represented in a democracy. Cowen et al are denying them this right for the sake of keeping him in power.

The by-elections will take place in time, at the minute FF are trying to guide us out of recession and all time and money is going into that. Scared?? Thats a FG slur, give FG two extra votes and they still haven't overturned the government....

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

It was agreed last week no major votes or Leaders questions would take place this week. Thus delaying it till Tuesday, if anything this is an advantage to Fine Gael who can try muster some support amound FF backbenchers or Greens to support the motion.

Sorry, but that's just bull. The Ceann Comhairle could have overruled this in extenuating circumstances, and two reports pointing out how our current Taoiseach contributed severely surely qualifies as that.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

This whole obsession with the word "sorry", the man admitted he made mistakes

You said that he said sorry. I quoted your exact post. You were actually the first to mention the word in this thread, so there is no "obsession" with it - you're the one who used the word.

You cannot now back that up.

If you cannot back up that claim, then retract it.

gbee

Liam Byrne wrote: »

cheques for Haughey).History repeats itself, maybe ?

Not exactly, it's part of the master plan, a continuation rather than a repeat. Ahern was the brains behind Haughey, and he the reason Jack Lynch had to lose his memory and the reason Reynolds was flabbergasted to see how easily the office could be manipulated and Ahern's tentacles go a long way.

The present eejit is truly the saddest character ever, economists were screaming at him to implement policies three years ago. He said he was the person responsible and he duly implemented the correct policy ~~ but far far too late and seemingly deliberately ~ I personally cannot understand a well educated man like this doing such stupid things, driving our economy to destruction, doing the right thing but at the wrong time so the effect was the exact opposite of the publicly stated intended results.

Not once, not twice, not even three times ... it continues to this day.

To be kind and not hang someone for treason, it's total incompetence, but I'm a conspiracy activist and I'm delighted to see more and more Irish people with their eyess wide open, as opposed to eyes wide shut.

Even old people are realising that their God like figures that they elected have been mistakes and we are not in a democracy or a low tax economy .

jmayo

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The man accepts responsibility for his mistakes! He explained time and again how he made the decisions he made, different agencies consulted etc, apologised that they were wrong decisions and now wants to move on and fix things.

Ehh when did he apologise ????

Let me ask you this...
you have an accountant he makes a major f*** up of your accounts, costs you millions, endangers your future livelihood and you would keep him on as your accountant, right ?

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Fianna Fail and him have a mandate from the people and if they continue on the path we are currently on things will turn around. Growth is slowly coming back.

Let the man do his job how often does he have to apologise?

Ehh once woule be nice :rolleyes:

And I would let him do his job if he had any fu**ing idea how to actually do it.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The opposition is on record as saying they would have done alot more in terms of money spent duringthe good times and tax incentives.

BS
Richard Bruton was lambasting the government for benchmarking and in budget speech in 2006 said the govrnment were basing their spending on a short term industry that was going to go into slow down as some stage.
AFAIK Joan Burton was asking why the section grants for continued for so long.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I for one applaud Mr Cowen and encourage him and Mr Lenihan to continue the work they have started doing. We can judge them on their successes and failings come election time but at the present time let them do the job they are doing.

joe behan is that you doing a spot of ar**licking ?

rovert wrote: »

If anything he has got big balls.

No mary harney is the one with those

wicklowwonder wrote: »

...
He admitted he made mistakes, said sorry and know wants to fix him. Again not all the mistakes were in his making and did get go some way to try fix them up evidently not fast enough!

Again where has he done all this apologising ????

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Cowen is just the Gordon Brown of Irish Politics... an unelected Prime Minister and Brown thought he would ride his luck as well and only called an election when he absolutely had to, and his party was punished.

That's an insult to Gordon Brown.
biffo is in a world all of his own.
Well maybe wicklowwonder inhabits it as well, since he seems to have heard him apologising a lot :rolleyes:

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Cowen admitted the mistakes and Lenihen apologised for the role Fianna Fail played in the banking crisis on the 15th of April this year I think. All in all an apology from Fianna Fail.

Stop thinking, it's going to give you a headache.

Kristopherus wrote: »

I dont know what fabulous fantasy land you live in if you think FF will ever apologize for anything. The sun will rise in the West first.

Forget it Kristopherus...
he is a soldier of dysentery who probably believes that they shouldn't have to apologise anyway.
After all biffo was annointed by the sun king bertie and thus has a God given right like all ffers to rule us as they see fit.

EDIT
bloody hell Wicklowwonder thanked me, strange indeed.
oh no he thought a bit more about and removed his thanks again.

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry, but that's just bull. The Ceann Comhairle could have overruled this in extenuating circumstances, and two reports pointing out how our current Taoiseach contributed severely surely qualifies as that.



You said that he said sorry. I quoted your exact post. You were actually the first to mention the word in this thread, so there is no "obsession" with it - you're the one who used the word.

You cannot now back that up.

If you cannot back up that claim, then retract it.

The report said the government contributed but third in the list after the Banks and the regulator. Thats here or there the Ceann Comhairle didn't overrule vote Tuesday, it will still be the same result BC will be our Leader come Wednesday morning. Truthfully I am a little disappointed in FG because if they had of waited a week, this awful story about the miscarriages has a lot more chance of bringing down the government than the banks, the reports told people nothing new that Shane Ross and Matt Cooper have not already published in books but the disgraceful cases we are hearing from our hospitals could see the fall of the government, I fill Ms Harney will definitely pay with her head. Buts thats a different topic and one I really don't want to be dragged into.

As I said I feel he apologised, I admit he may not have uttered the word sorry but he addmitted he made mistakes and wants to fix these mistakes.

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The report said the government contributed but third in the list after the Banks and the regulator.

Banks are answerable only to their shareholders.

The regulator was appointed by the government.

That gives the government 2nd and 3rd place, and which becomes 1st and 2nd place in terms of those who are supposedly representing our interests.

It also gives them an average 66% contribution to the crisis.......

.....and they got it so wrong that it's beyond comprehension.

The bank heads and the regulator gets a golden handshake, and Cowen stays in power.

No-one was fined or reprimanded for any corruption or incompetence.

Sickening. :mad:

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I admit he may not have uttered the word sorry but he addmitted he made mistakes and wants to fix these mistakes.

Thanks for finally retracting your incorrect assertion from earlier.

Now if Cowen was as easily convinced to tell the truth and accept responsibilty - not just in words, but in actions and in actual responsibility - then we might actually start to get out of this mess.

But I suspect that we'll need a pig-friendly airport hangar before we see that day arrive.

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Banks are answerable only to their shareholders.

The regulator was appointed by the government.

That gives the government 2nd and 3rd place, and which becomes 1st and 2nd place in terms of those who are supposedly representing our interests.

It also gives them an average 66% contribution to the crisis.......

.....and they got it so wrong that it's beyond comprehension.

The bank heads and the regulator gets a golden handshake, and Cowen stays in power.

No-one was fined or reprimanded for any corruption or incompetence.

Sickening. :mad:



Thanks for finally retracting your incorrect assertion from earlier.

Now if Cowen was as easily convinced to tell the truth and accept responsibilty - not just in words, but in actions and in actual responsibility - then we might actually start to get out of this mess.

But I suspect that we'll need a pig-friendly airport hangar before we see that day arrive.

Firstly as I said I feel the man apologised and get that hangar ready we are returning to growth, things will never be as good as they were but if we get to unemployment back down the country will really be in good shape within two years ONCE we as a whole learn from our mistakes.

Secondly the Regulator may be appointed by the government but the government can be seen to interfere with the regulators work or risk been told they are interfering because the banks are having a word in their ear which you know well the Irish Press would of jumped on. The regulator was given a job to regulate he didn't he paid with his job. Currently the Gardai still have open cases against numerous ex bank leaders so we may yet see them in front of a court.

The banks also should be answerable to their customers who they have let down over the past few months, the guys who have had their OD withdrawn and can not pay wages etc. The banks have ruined numerous small businesses so the customers ie you and me should hold them answerable to us. Be that withdrawing your custom etc.

jmayo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Banks are answerable only to their shareholders.

The regulator was appointed by the government.

That gives the government 2nd and 3rd place, and which becomes 1st and 2nd place in terms of those who are supposedly representing our interests.

It also gives them an average 66% contribution to the crisis.......

.....and they got it so wrong that it's beyond comprehension.

The bank heads and the regulator gets a golden handshake, and Cowen stays in power.

No-one was fined or reprimanded for any corruption or incompetence.

Sickening. :mad:



Thanks for finally retracting your incorrect assertion from earlier.

Now if Cowen was as easily convinced to tell the truth and accept responsibilty - not just in words, but in actions and in actual responsibility - then we might actually start to get out of this mess.

But I suspect that we'll need a pig-friendly airport hangar before we see that day arrive.

Liam give up.
Life is too short.

Wicklowwonder will believe in biffo no matter what.

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The regulator was given a job to regulate he didn't he paid with his job.

Which wasn't enough, especially considering the payoff that he got. But if you think that's fair, why are you against the same criteria applying to Cowen ?

Based on your posts so far, you'd have been in favour of leaving the regulator there because he was willing to undo all of his mistakes, no ?

Conversely, if you believe that it was right for the regulator to pay with his job, you should agree that Cowen should pay with his job too.

Which is it ?

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Currently the Gardai still have open cases against numerous ex bank leaders so we may yet see them in front of a court.

We may. We can only hope. But again, why don't you want to see the same process applied to Cowen for his part in the crash ?

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The banks have ruined numerous small businesses so the customers ie you and me should hold them answerable to us. Be that withdrawing your custom etc.

Thanks to Cowen & Lenihan, it doesn't matter if we withdraw our custom, because we have to pay to maintain the banks one way or the other.

Liam Byrne

jmayo wrote: »

Liam give up.
Life is too short.

Wicklowwonder will believe in biffo no matter what.

I believe you might be right, but I'm not giving up.

People who believe in FF no matter what they do have to be challenged.

As soon as they acknowledge the facts (and, as per the post above, are consistent when allocating blame and consequences) then I'll see it as progress and maybe start believing in some credibility.

But until then, everyone should challenge the notion that FF are beyond justice and valid criticism.

I might not be able to undo the damage, or avoid paying the gamblers that used to visit the Galway Tent, but I'm damned if I'm giving up pointing out the whole truth and challenging this somewhat deluded notion that FF are good for the country.

edellc

BehindTheScenes wrote: »

Yep

I'm going with brazen and stupid. Now in what proportion I'm not to sure.

arrogant and condescending i think towards the irish people but if the people keep voting them in what else can he be when he is allowed to get away with what ever he likes and we just take it on the chin moan a bit and vote them in again and again :eek::eek::eek::eek::mad:

BlaasForRafa

edellc wrote: »

arrogant and condescending i think towards the irish people but if the people keep voting them in what else can he be when he is allowed to get away with what ever he likes and we just take it on the chin moan a bit and vote them in again and again :eek::eek::eek::eek::mad:

Isn't it ironic that the Japanese Prime Minister resigned just a couple of weeks ago over not being able to deliver on election promises yet Cowen (as minister of Finance and then Taoiseach) presided over the most disasterous government in the history of the state sending this country rocketing to the poorhouse and then been condemned by the current Central Bank chief and 2 outside experts in scathing reports yet he thinks he's qualified to still lead this country?

If the man had one atom of decency in his body he would do the decent thing and resign and take his government of incompetent yes-men and women with him.

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Which wasn't enough, especially considering the payoff that he got. But if you think that's fair, why are you against the same criteria applying to Cowen ?

Based on your posts so far, you'd have been in favour of leaving the regulator there because he was willing to undo all of his mistakes, no ?

Conversely, if you believe that it was right for the regulator to pay with his job, you should agree that Cowen should pay with his job too.

Which is it ?



We may. We can only hope. But again, why don't you want to see the same process applied to Cowen for his part in the crash ?



Thanks to Cowen & Lenihan, it doesn't matter if we withdraw our custom, because we have to pay to maintain the banks one way or the other.

the regulator had a lot more to do with the crisis than Cowen and the independent report says that. As I have said Cowen made the mistake and admitted that but he also shows us how he made the mistakes. Showed us whos advice he followed, what the main opinion eas at the time and why he went down the route he went.

Are you trying to tell me Brian Cowen should be investigated by the Gardai? FFS not even you can say Brian Cowen is part of some golden circle of eitlistes? He made mistakes but noway did he profit off these mistakes.

so you would rather see the banks collapse? See our savings disappear over night? All parties bar the Labour backed the Bank Guarantee Scheme. We could not let the bank collapse it would ruin us totally.

Laim Byrne you do have to admit we are turning a corner? We hopefully have seen off the worst of this recession, but don't worry there will be another one in ten years time or so and I am sure you will still be here blaming Cowen and FF etc.

loldog

In the absence of a credible opposition, Cowen can do whatever the hell he likes.

.

Fuhrer

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Isn't it ironic that the Japanese Prime Minister resigned just a couple of weeks ago over not being able to deliver on election promises yet Cowen (as minister of Finance and then Taoiseach) presided over the most disasterous government in the history of the state sending this country rocketing to the poorhouse and then been condemned by the current Central Bank chief and 2 outside experts in scathing reports yet he thinks he's qualified to still lead this country?

If the man had one atom of decency in his body he would do the decent thing and resign and take his government of incompetent yes-men and women with him.

How is that Ironic?

Het-Field

wicklowwonder wrote: »

the regulator had a lot more to do with the crisis than Cowen and the independent report says that. As I have said Cowen made the mistake and admitted that but he also shows us how he made the mistakes. Showed us whos advice he followed, what the main opinion eas at the time and why he went down the route he went.

Are you trying to tell me Brian Cowen should be investigated by the Gardai? FFS not even you can say Brian Cowen is part of some golden circle of eitlistes? He made mistakes but noway did he profit off these mistakes.

so you would rather see the banks collapse? See our savings disappear over night? All parties bar the Labour backed the Bank Guarantee Scheme. We could not let the bank collapse it would ruin us totally.

Laim Byrne you do have to admit we are turning a corner? We hopefully have seen off the worst of this recession, but don't worry there will be another one in ten years time or so and I am sure you will still be here blaming Cowen and FF etc.

They were different crisis. The insolvency crisis and the banking crisis were caused by different people. The spendthrift policies of the Government have been firmly blamed on Brian Cowen. These are the problems which see us roped in with Greece, Portugal, and Spain. This was caused by unsustainable 10% increases in public expenditure, which encapsulated the expansion of the public sector, the negotiation of the Benchmarking II deal the implementation of the failed P-Par system, the failure to abolish a plethora of useless QUANGOs, and continued adherence to the Unions, which gave them an opportunity have have a big day in the Dail, and posture about engaging in "hard discussion"

Brian Cowen engaged in taht form of public expenditure to appease a media which was gunning for FF in 2003-2004. As I have mentioned the budgets of December 2000 and December 2001 were "giveaway" budgets, which were aimed at giving an ailing party and an ailing government a boost. Once the government was re-elected, it returned to the tried and tested policies of fiscal rectitude, which had made the 1997-2002 government so successful in dealing with debt, solvency, and job creation. Using the 2000 and 2001 budgets, the media started to beat FF and the PDs with it, saying that they were buying votes. Of course this culminated in a cabinet re-shuffle where sounder economic minds like McCreevy and Harney were shifted for Cowen. Bertie was able to use Cowen, on the basis that both are ideologically devoid, and ensure that public expenditure was to be expanded beyond belief, and the way to pay for it was through Capital Gains Tax, VAT, and Stamp Duty. Aided and abetted by the Banks, this gave rise to the property bubble, which David McWilliams foretold, and the Japenese experience in 1991taught us, would burst in an almighty fashion, and would have untold consequences for years to come.

Thus this business of "best advice" etc is ludicrious. We have histroical precedent on the matter. Cowen and his buddies were either ignorant, or put their heads in the sand. He has spent 18 months refuting liability, and only when emperical evidence was put before him, did he become willing to accept liability. That is not credible, nor is it commendable.

I would also question which banks you are talking about ? An indefinate guarantee, to all of the banks may have been reasonable in the very short-term. However, the classification was too broad, and has ensured that Anglo Irish Bank has come within the remit of the public domain. A society must exist whereby banks can fail. Otherwise they will be encouraged to take risky decisions. Although Anglo-Irish Bank is as good as dead, the Government have been propping it up. This is a bailout of a bank which is of no systemic importance, and the difficulties of it's collapse could have bene mitigated by a merger. It is also plauasable that under the guarantee scheme, the state could have said that the bank would be gradually wound down, and this would take the sting out of any collapse. Instead, it appears that for almost ten months the Government tried to get the bank back on it's feet. It then came to the realisation that it was not a viable option and talks acommenced about a gradual wind-down.

The concept of the National Assets Management Agency is completely uncertain. It has only been tried in a country where the banks were already owned by the state (Sweden), and as a result the situations are incomparable. One thing is certain, the assets which have been bought range from Triple A to useless. Many NAMAised loans appear to be secured by other NAMAised loans. Many properties which have been sucked into NAMA are unsellable due to their location and local infrastructure. They will be demolised, and the loans which were given to build the areas will be defaulted on. The same applies to all the sites which were purchased at inflated prices, and were never meant to become private properties/residences. They admit that NAMA will make a huge loss. It just depends on how big a loss it will be.

Turning a corner from recession to bottoming out is not much of a corner to turn. We are comparing figures for this year to last year which was Annus Horibillis from an economic viewpoint. As such, it makes it easy to look like we have improved greatly. Look at the live register figures for the past month ? They have increased by thousands. People are emigrating, people are returning to their parents abode as they cannot afford to live out of home through lack of a job. Joblessness remains high, our defecit is one of the largest in Europe, in spite of commendable austerity measures taken by Brian Lenihan in December 2009, and we remain uncompetitive, having been a competitive hub for years. We have turned no corner worth celebrating. Ill be waiting until after the next budget is announced before I make my decision on whether any corner has been turned.

scr123

When it comes to brazen and stupid

Brazen Gilmore - does nothing and says nothing and sits in the Dail bunker sneering and smearing his superiors

Stupid Kenny - we all know the reasons for that


Now look at the two man teams to run the country

Cowen + Lenihan

Kenny + Bruton

Gilmore + Burton

17% of the electorate still recognise intelligence. Another 17% of the intelligent electorate are angry at the moment but will know what way to vote come the election

Brazen and stupid are people who have not won an election for 30 years and have lost the last 6 elections

God bless Cowen and Ahern for giving us 10 years of prosperity we only dreamed of in our turbulent past !

bush Baby

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Cowen admitted the mistakes and Lenihen apologised for the role Fianna Fail played in the banking crisis on the 15th of April this year I think. All in all an apology from Fianna Fail.

So they'll resign effective immediately?

My hole they will. They will continue to infer an apology is all is required of them and by the sound of it, you agree.

Het-Field

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Firstly as I said I feel the man apologised and get that hangar ready we are returning to growth, things will never be as good as they were but if we get to unemployment back down the country will really be in good shape within two years ONCE we as a whole learn from our mistakes.
Secondly the Regulator may be appointed by the government but the government can be seen to interfere with the regulators work or risk been told they are interfering because the banks are having a word in their ear which you know well the Irish Press would of jumped on. The regulator was given a job to regulate he didn't he paid with his job. Currently the Gardai still have open cases against numerous ex bank leaders so we may yet see them in front of a court.

The banks also should be answerable to their customers who they have let down over the past few months, the guys who have had their OD withdrawn and can not pay wages etc. The banks have ruined numerous small businesses so the customers ie you and me should hold them answerable to us. Be that withdrawing your custom etc.

The same mistakes were made under Jack Lynch's government in 1977. They learned nothing from that experience 30 years ago. Otherwise they would never have pandered to the media and embarked on such a spending bing. The same applies to the property bubble. Look to the history of Japan, and it would starkly tell us that such a bubble is not the way to fo.

They will never be seen before the courts. They will need to find criminal charges against them. The best we can hope for is certain company law based sanctions.

It is incumbent on the state to be in constant dialogue with the financial regulator. As has been noted, they appoint him. As a result, they are entitled to discuss with him whatever they wish. And dont tell me that the state were not aware of what was happening. They either were ignorant of what the regulator was doing, or were complicit. Wither way, the Government cannot shirk responsibility for this.

Its incredible, it really appears that you have fallen hook line and sinker for all that has been proffered by the Government

-Lessons Learned
-Regulators Fault
-"We take responsibility"

blah-blah-blah.

Het-Field

scr123 wrote: »

When it comes to brazen and stupid

Brazen Gilmore - does nothing and says nothing and sits in the Dail bunker sneering and smearing his superiors

Stupid Kenny - we all know the reasons for that


Now look at the two man teams to run the country

Cowen + Lenihan

Kenny + Bruton

Gilmore + Burton

17% of the electorate still recognise intelligence. Another 17% of the intelligent electorate are angry at the moment but will know what way to vote come the election

Brazen and stupid are people who have not won an election for 30 years and have lost the last 6 elections

God bless Cowen and Ahern for giving us 10 years of prosperity we only dreamed of in our turbulent past !

This post is a shocking indictment of the intellect which you purport to bring to this discussion.

So its ok to have 10 years of prosperity if it means 10 years of unmitigated hardship. Guess who doesnt have the best interests of the country at heart !

bush Baby

scr123 wrote: »

When it comes to brazen and stupid



God bless Cowen and Ahern for giving us 10 years of prosperity we only dreamed of in our turbulent past !

...............And for pissing it up against the wall at the same time in the sure and certain knowledge that they would have to account for their actions. But they won't be the first to fiddle while Rome burned.

Good to see the Fianna Fail mantra of "don't question us, we know what's good for you" is alive and well.....