Edinburgh 2010: a backwards marathon training log

aero2k

After a marathon, many of us find ourselves doing simple things, such as walking down stairs, backwards. I have found it convenient, having run Edinburgh on May 23rd, to write a retrospective training log. I've tried to include all the stuff people might ask about, while keeping it reasonably brief. As I've got so much help and inspiration from reading many of the logs here, I'm posting it here - I'll probably stick it in the sub-3 thread as well.

You'll find it here; all feedback welcome.

tisnotover

Thanks for posting the log, always good to see other people's training logs and it was your one from DCM '09 that gave me the proper motivation to go for Cork this year !

Looks like we're at very similar paces, based on your 10k times and tempo run paces. Mixing the tempo intervals with PMP runs is a good thing I reckon. Also good to see the progression in your tempo pace from 6:15min/mile to 6:10min/mile.

One comment I'd have is that maybe your interval work could be done at a faster pace, what do you think ?
And the other would be on PMP, if I was going again i'd def try and get in a longer PMP run of 13miles straight?

Your def well suited to the longer races...maybe you should do the Ultra

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

..maybe you should do the Ultra

That's fightin' talk - last time I'll give a Corkman a shout!

You're definitely right about the PMP miles. When I signed up for Edinburgh I had a goal of 2:55, so I decided to do similar training as per DCM '09 but with a PMP pace of 6:40. When I had done a few runs, and also raced the kilomathon on March 14th, I realised I could go a bit faster. I think more PMP miles would have lessened the slowdown over the last few miles too; knowing I had done them would have been a psychological boost.

As for the intervals, I think you're a bit quicker than me over the shorter distances, and I notice you like the short sessions, but I really struggled over the shorter, faster intervals, anything around or under 6 min/mile was really hard, and it was only when I started doing longer stuff that 6:10 per mile felt okay. That became my new HMP, prior to DCM '09 HMP was 6:30.

4 days before Edinburgh I did 2 x 1 mile, at around 5:45 and 5:51, and they were the two fastest miles I've ever run in training, also faster than any of my current PB race paces, so I'm hoping when I get back into proper training I'll be able to take it up to a slightly higher level.

RacoonQueen

tisnotover wrote: »

Your def well suited to the longer races...maybe you should do the Ultra

He is, next year. :pac:

tisnotover

aero2k wrote: »

That's fightin' talk - last time I'll give a Corkman a shout!

You're definitely right about the PMP miles. When I signed up for Edinburgh I had a goal of 2:55, so I decided to do similar training as per DCM '09 but with a PMP pace of 6:40. When I had done a few runs, and also raced the kilomathon on March 14th, I realised I could go a bit faster. I think more PMP miles would have lessened the slowdown over the last few miles too; knowing I had done them would have been a psychological boost.

As for the intervals, I think you're a bit quicker than me over the shorter distances, and I notice you like the short sessions, but I really struggled over the shorter, faster intervals, anything around or under 6 min/mile was really hard, and it was only when I started doing longer stuff that 6:10 per mile felt okay. That became my new HMP, prior to DCM '09 HMP was 6:30.

4 days before Edinburgh I did 2 x 1 mile, at around 5:45 and 5:51, and they were the two fastest miles I've ever run in training, also faster than any of my current PB race paces, so I'm hoping when I get back into proper training I'll be able to take it up to a slightly higher level.

You'll have to come out to the 25mile mark next time

Its interesting to see the approaches like. Running intervals at 6min/mile is fine like and does work for you, but you've seen the progression on that now as well with the 2*1mile that ya ran 4days before Edinburgh.

I suppose a goal could be to get the tempo pace down to 6:00min/mile maybe before your next marathon ?

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

I suppose a goal could be to get the tempo pace down to 6:00min/mile maybe before your next marathon ?

I've loads of ideas going round in my head, mainly about avoiding ultras...

I've sort of decided there's no point in doing another marathon unles I can do a 10 in under 60 ( the Frank Duffy in the Phoenix Park in August is a bit hilly so maybe I can say 60:30). That would mean making my 10k pace from the Great Ireland Run on 18th April last another 3.8 miles, or 23 minutes. A bit scary now, but not an outlandish goal.

littlebug

Just for a second (I swear) I thought you'd got fed up with this old fashioned running forwards business........

gol eht htiw kcul dooG

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

He is, next year. :pac:

See how I thanked every post except this:p

In all seriousness, I'd love to do one. Maybe for my 50th? I have a feeling that running for more than 3 hours would be a problem, mentally as well as physically.

There are so many things I'd love to do, like this, or even this - it's hard to find time, and energy. (not to mention money...)

Think I'll sign up for the Raheny 5k on the 20th!:D

tisnotover

aero2k wrote: »

I've loads of ideas going round in my head, mainly about avoiding ultras...

I've sort of decided there's no point in doing another marathon unles I can do a 10 in under 60 ( the Frank Duffy in the Phoenix Park in August is a bit hilly so maybe I can say 60:30). That would mean making my 10k pace from the Great Ireland Run on 18th April last another 3.8 miles, or 23 minutes. A bit scary now, but not an outlandish goal.

But its great to give yourself that goal. Its like what Gringo said on the sub-3 thread about getting to your goal(e.g. <60, 10miles) before commencing a new marathon training programme. Its not that outlandish. Youre already at 6:10 tempo pace !

Abhainn

Good man aero2K. Don't worry about the hills on that 10 miler. Should be no bother to you
Try also the book "Survival Of the Fittest " by Mike Shroud.

Will be reading your log with interest

aero2k

Abhainn wrote: »

Good man aero2K. Don't worry about the hills on that 10 miler. Should be no bother to you
Try also the book "Survival Of the Fittest " by Mike Shroud.

Will be reading your log with interest

Thanks Abhainn,

I actually like that course - I train on parts of it at least once a week - I was just a bit disappointed with the time last year. Looking back I was purely focused on marathon training, so it actually wasn't a bad run. Like yourself, I think it's just that the bar has been raised a bit...

Funnily enough I think if those hills were in a marathon I wouldn't regard them as hard, but in a 10 mile, or worse a 10k, they're awful. It's all about the pace I suppose.

I'll certainly have a look at that book.

I'll probably just add to the log whenever I race, and try to figure out what gives me the most benefit in terms of preparation.

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

I've sort of decided there's no point in doing another marathon unles I can do a 10 in under 60 ( the Frank Duffy in the Phoenix Park in August is a bit hilly so maybe I can say 60:30). That would mean making my 10k pace from the Great Ireland Run on 18th April last another 3.8 miles, or 23 minutes. A bit scary now, but not an outlandish goal.

Don't sell yourself short....I've looked through your edinburgh training and you have no tempo running at LT pace hence the 60min 10 miler is going to seem daunting just like a marathon would seem dautning if you'd no long runs.

The don't sell yourself short bit...no reason why you don't have a sub 60 10 miler in you. 6 mile tempos, starting this week at 6:15 pace and knock off 1 or 2 seconds each week >10 weeks to the frank duffy...no bother to you. I love the 6 mile tempos in a sadistic type of way...they never get easy, because you up the pace all the time. but they get you tremendous stamina that stands to you during the race. And I love 10 mile races, pure racing on the limit, pacy running where you empty the tank entirely over the course of an hour.

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

..you have no tempo running at LT pace..

Yeah, that's a gap alright. I was tempted to try and insert a tempo run on Thursdays between my Tues intervals and Sat long run, but I felt I was better off with the rest.
Do you think I'd be better starting with a full 6 miles @6:15 or something like 3x2?

Gringo78 wrote: »

...no reason why you don't have a sub 60 10 miler in you..

I'm inclined to agree, it's just that getting it out might be a challenge!

Gringo78 wrote: »

And I love 10 mile races, pure racing on the limit, pacy running where you empty the tank entirely over the course of an hour.

In my cycling days I did a few 25 mile time trials, all about 12 bpm over LT heart rate, tough but very satisfying. I find running flat out more difficult.

Thanks for the input. I was going to go over to your log and ask a few questions - I was very impressed to see what you achieved over the last few months on relatively little mileage. Now that you're here maybe you can help with the following:

I'm thinking of training by HR rather than pace. What kind of HRM do you use, how did you determine your LT HR, and where can I find out more about HRR (Daniels??)

Thanks!

aero2k

Okay, I originally intended this to be a single post log, with perhaps a few questions or comments. Then I began to think that maybe I'd use it for race reports, and give a little retrospective training log for each one, like I did for Edinburgh. All the training would be on one page, and we'd have the finish time to judge how successful it was. However, I feel it's beginning to spread beyond that, and here's why.

Keen followers of my posts (I know that's plural, I'm trying to make this a positive thinking log) will have read about my efforts to resist the siren calls of RQ and HM, not to mention tisnotover, who would have lured me to my destruction on the rocks of an ultramarathon. In veering one way to excape their clutches, I ended up falling under the influence of the evil Gringo78, and that is why, despite struggling to manage a sub 8 min mile for the past three weeks, I found myself lacing up my Hyperspeeds (my lightest shoes) this morning, and heading to the park for my first proper tempo run.

4 miles warm-up: 8:31, 7:35, 7:38, 7:15, followed by 6 @ 6:15 - actual splits: 6.13, 6.15, 6.14, 6.12, 6.13, 6.12. and a warmdown of .74 miles. (I'd have done more but I was passing close to home at that point.)
Probably my best ever training session - I had started out wondering if I'd even manage the pace for the first mile, then thinking "I'll try to hang on for another couple" before finally having to ease up on the last rep as I was at 6:07 halfway through. Breathing was hard but relatively comfortable, and the legs weren't (too) wobbly.

Plan now is another one of these midweek, a race next Sunday, and the Dunshaughlin 10k on Sat 26th.

Gringo78, thanks for the suggestion - any chance of you coming on here to post along the lines of "aero, how about running 2:45 for DCM '10?:D

aero2k

aero2k wrote: »

Probably my best ever training session

I've just realised today marks 365 consecutive days running.....

tunguska

I dont believed you cracked and started a log aero!! Youre betraying the non-log brigade no end I tell ye.
Whats the story, is it Raheny next sunday? Ive been eyeing up my hyperspeeds lately aswell, even though the last outing ended in disaster. I still think I could be making a long outing in them, sometime in october perhaps............

tisnotover

great running there aero, quality training !!

delighted your dipping into the training logs too !

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

I'm thinking of training by HR rather than pace. What kind of HRM do you use, how did you determine your LT HR, and where can I find out more about HRR (Daniels??)

I have a spreadsheet which I'll dig out and attach in a few days...calculates the daniels HR's for you. Its just a rough guide really, after looking at your HR data for a few tempos's and races you'll know yourself what are the correct ones.

I use the HR strap for the forerunner 305...its basic really, takes 1 or 2 miles before you start to get reasonably accurate readings but I have a field set up avg lap HR which is what I use...helps run the tempos a little more accurately pace wise especially on windy days or on uphills...this pace adjustment by HR would stand to you in undulating races.

aero2k wrote: »

Gringo78, thanks for the suggestion - any chance of you coming on here to post along the lines of "aero, how about running 2:45 for DCM '10?:D

maybe not, you might actually benefit more from concentrating on 10 mile PB in frank duffy and then starting a half program targeting waterford ac HM in december....you could hit a 1:17:xx there by skipping dublin marathon and you'd then be in very good shape to hit the endurance training for a spring marathon at least 2:45 and maybe even <2:40.

Do Dublin, and you may miss the 2:45 target, and then you'll soldier on a scrape it in a spring marathon...maybe...now wouldn't 2:39:xx be so much better?

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

I dont believed you cracked and started a log aero!! Youre betraying the non-log brigade no end I tell ye.
Whats the story, is it Raheny next sunday? Ive been eyeing up my hyperspeeds lately aswell, even though the last outing ended in disaster. I still think I could be making a long outing in them, sometime in october perhaps............

Hi tunguska,

Sorry for the sellout. I reckon I'll be ok as long as I don't mention.....

Undecided about Raheny yet - I might go to Kilcoole for the 5 mile with a mate.

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

I have a spreadsheet which I'll dig out and attach in a few days...calculates the daniels HR's for you. ?

Cheers, no rush as I'm trying to fix my HRM at the moment.

Gringo78 wrote: »

I use the HR strap for the forerunner 305...its basic really, takes 1 or 2 miles before you start to get reasonably accurate readings but I have a field set up avg lap HR which is what I use

I have the same one and it has never seemed as good as my old Polar. I'll try that average lap HR field, it's bound to have less spikes.

Gringo78 wrote: »

maybe not, you might actually benefit more from concentrating on 10 mile PB in frank duffy and then starting a half program targeting waterford ac HM in december....you could hit a 1:17:xx there by skipping dublin marathon and you'd then be in very good shape to hit the endurance training for a spring marathon at least 2:45 and maybe even <2:40.

Do Dublin, and you may miss the 2:45 target, and then you'll soldier on a scrape it in a spring marathon...maybe...now wouldn't 2:39:xx be so much better?

This all sounds very appealing. Much as I love Dublin, I think it's going to come round too quick. I think my VO2 max is okay, but LT as a % of VO2 max is a bit low, as is LT pace. (I've no evidence to substantiate this other than gut feeling - haven't done a test since 2001).

Many thanks for all the feedback, I'll take it all on board.

Git101

I stayed away from reading training logs as I thought the potential for my head to go into meltdown with all the information was too great.

I did go looking for a certain posters log on your recommendation and how surprised was I to discover that aero2k had started a log of his own.

Fair play to you, your log makes interesting reading and I suspect may inspire me to train smarter in the future.

misty floyd

Deadly stuff Aero, this is really useful. See you at the race series and then DCM. You know you'll do DCM All the best.

aero2k

misty floyd wrote: »

You know you'll do DCM

Cheers, Misty,

No way I'm doing DCM '10.

Of course, I told Git101 "no way am I writing a log":D

However, it is an unconventional log. I'll post up some musings from time to time, and a backwards look at training. If I tried to follow other peoples' formats, most of my posts would be along the lines of "did 4 (or 8) today. Felt slow and tired, but really enjoyed being in the park."
Now that might be good for my mental health, but not for motivating me, or anyone else, to go fast.

An update:

I went a bit mad on Monday (no RQ, HM, tno, oh, and you too xebec, not mad enough to do an ultra) and ordered 7 running books online. It would have been 8 but the Mike Stroud book mentioned by Abhainn was out of stock - I'll look for it in the library.

Time to start taking this running thing seriously.:)

aero2k

So, a couple of brief race reports. I signed up for the Dunshaughlin 10k a few weeks before heading off for Edinburgh - I figured it would give me a target to make sure I didn't fall by the wayside if I did a very good - or very bad - marathon. Then I heard about the Tommy Lynam 5k in Raheny last Sunday. Ok, it was a bit sooner than I'd planned to return to racing, but I reckoned "how much harm can I do in 5k?!".

Raheny 5k

Nice course on closed roads within the beautiful St Annes Park.
A hectic start, then settled in for splits of 5.40, 5.55, 5.52 and finishing in a PB of 17:53. I felt I was dying for the second half, but the splits show otherwise (it was a 2 lap course). The course may have been a little short....

Dunshaughlin 10k.

I felt really tired all week leading up to this. In each of the previous weeks I'd done a tempo run of 6@ 6:12, but I wasn't able for it this week so just did 3 x 1m @ 6:10 on Thursday, and a short run with some strides on Friday.
The plan was to go for 36:30, and to start of at 36:00 pace and hold it for as long as possible. I had a good warm-up and settled into a good rhythm soon after the start - I had to ease a bit from the 5:35 pace I was dragged along at. There was a teeny bit of weaving needed but by the time I hit the 1k marker, I had a nice clear run all the way. Halfway came round in 18:11, a little slower than I wanted but not too bad. I noticed Patricia-unprouncable-surname from Raheny ahead so I caught and passed her, and went in pursuit of the guy in front of her. I passed him on the hill in mile 5, only for him to blaze by me in the last 200. That 5th mile was a killer, and my attempt at having a drink around midway didn't help either, I reckon it cost me 5-10 secs (my mouth was very dry and I thought I'd be able to rinse it and spit out - epic fail!).
Splits were 5:49, 5.49, 5.59, 5.55, 6.11, 5.55 and an average of 5.56 per mile for the last .2, to finish in 36:53 by my watch. I felt like my legs were falling off for the last mile or so, so I was pleased to see that the splits show I matched my race average (5:56) for this section.
Average HR 180 - also good as I did 6:12 per mile in the Adidas half last year, with an average HR of 184.
I'm hoping I can go sub 36 on a good course if I do some VO2 max training - to date my only real VO2 max stuff has been a couple of 5 k races, almost one year apart.
I'm still wading through the books - planning to award myself an honorary doctorate over the next week or so.:)

The bad thing about running a PB last night, despite a poor week leading up to it, is it makes me wonder about what might have been in Edinburgh if I'd been a little bit more aggressive between miles 5 and 10. I think I let a sub 2:50 get away.....

Git101

Great running aero, well done

aero2k wrote: »

The bad thing about running a PB last night, despite a poor week leading up to it, is it makes me wonder about what might have been in Edinburgh if I'd been a little bit more aggressive between miles 5 and 10. I think I let a sub 2:50 get away.....

What happened to the "positive thinking log"
Not to put it too bluntly but get over it and look to future races

RacoonQueen

Well done last night. Shame I missed out I opted for a very slow 7ish miler instead.

aero2k

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Well done last night. Shame I missed out I opted for a very slow 7ish miler instead.

Thanks RQ. You could have done that run with 520 others!
I just realised that in my pre-race focused state it never occured to me that I could have collected your number and mini-dresslarge t-shirt for you, not to mention the factor 30 suncream!
Was it hot enough for you in Eniscorthy?:D

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

What happened to the "positive thinking log"
Not to put it too bluntly but get over it and look to future races

Don't worry Git, it's all positive here.

I was at that Ronnie Delany talk in City Hall a few weeks back, and one of his (many) remarks that made an impression was "you learn more from your defeats than your victories". (I have to substitute good and not-so good performances here, as I'm unlikely to win anything).

I'm looking back at Edinburgh fairly dispassionately; I allowed fear of the unknown (i.e. how hot would it get and what affect would that heat have on me) to inhibit my running in the early stages of the race when it was critical to set down the pace for later. I didn't have a well defined goal.

Two mistakes I won't make again - that's progress.

RacoonQueen

aero2k wrote: »

Was it hot enough for you in Eniscorthy?:D

The weather was teasing me. It was lashing rain 20 minutes before the start, cue my happy face, then the sun came out... :rolleyes:

Krusty_Clown

Great running, and a pity we didn't get a chance to say hello. How did Tunguska get on (seeing as he doesn't have a log of his own!).

tisnotover

Great going aero, well done !
That tempo pace is very strong, any plans to do a half anytime soon ?

Git101

aero2k wrote: »

Don't worry Git, it's all positive here.

I was at that Ronnie Delany talk in City Hall a few weeks back, and one of his (many) remarks that made an impression was "you learn more from your defeats than your victories". (I have to substitute good and not-so good performances here, as I'm unlikely to win anything).

I'm looking back at Edinburgh fairly dispassionately; I allowed fear of the unknown (i.e. how hot would it get and what affect would that heat have on me) to inhibit my running in the early stages of the race when it was critical to set down the pace for later. I didn't have a well defined goal.

Two mistakes I won't make again - that's progress.

Glad to hear that...
Always good to learn from mistakes ... because I make more mistakes than most I do it all the time
Just worried that you were getting bogged down in the "what might have been" syndrome.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Great running, and a pity we didn't get a chance to say hello. How did Tunguska get on (seeing as he doesn't have a log of his own!).

Thanks Krusty, I'm just glad I wasn't in your shoes!:D I don't know how you managed to speed up towards the end...
tunguska did 34:17, about 90 secs faster than his (already very impressive) Great Ireland run time. Just between you and me, I saw him having a sneaky gel before the start;)

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

Great going aero, well done !
That tempo pace is very strong, any plans to do a half anytime soon ?

Thanks tno, I need to learn to push a bit harder in the middle third of the race when I felt (relatively) okay.
I've signed up for the Adidas series - 5m on 17th July, 10m 5 weeks later, and 1/2 5 weeks after that. I haven't even done out a proper program yet, but it will have more tempo running, and a bit of VO2 max stuff. I might throw in the odd 2 mile or 5k race instead of a training session if it makes sense.
I'd also like to do the Liberties run (6.5k), I think it's the week after the 5m. I grew up near the route, plus it's a guaranteed PB!
You did well in your race too, good going only 3 weeks after your heroics in Cork!

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

Just worried that you were getting bogged down in the "what might have been" syndrome.

Well, it's hard to avoid that completely, but on the other hand it's a shame to waste a good mistake, especially when it's fairly easy to analyse.
Last night's race was similar conditions to Edinburgh, on a much tougher course, without the "free" 40-60 secs from the downhill start, and one online predictor gives an average marathon time of 2:49:37 over 3 different formulas using last night's 10k time. Given that I trained specifically for the marathon and not for the 10k, I'm inclined to believe the calculators. Definitely an opportunity missed.
Funny, when things go to plan it's often more difficult to figure out why.

DCM '08 was also a wasted opportunity, though in that case I did the best I could on the day, and I had got the training wrong. Thinking about "what might have been" motivated me to put that right next time.

tunguska

aero2k wrote: »

Thanks Krusty, I'm just glad I wasn't in your shoes!:D I don't know how you managed to speed up towards the end...
tunguska did 34:17, about 90 secs faster than his (already very impressive) Great Ireland run time. Just between you and me, I saw him having a sneaky gel before the start;)

These are outlandish allegations and my legal department will be in touch........

Great run on saturday Sean, you and Krusty must've been neck and neck. I'll do a little log hijacking here if you dont mind. Thought this was a great race. Not an easy course at all. Good support out on the roads, a real sense of community about the whole thing which is brilliant. Definitely will be back next year.

Anyway you're steadily making ground at every race and Im sure that 2:45 isnt far away. Whats the target for addidas 5miler?

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

Anyway you're steadily making ground at every race and Im sure that 2:45 isnt far away. Whats the target for addidas 5miler?

Thanks, there's a lot of hard work between here and 2:45, but we'll see.

It's hard to say what the target is for the 5-miler. I did 31:30 last year (31:18 without the stop to tie my lace!) and 29:25 in Jan '10 in the Raheny 5, though that's a much easier course. Coming off marathon training and just getting back into a proper routine, 29:30 wouldn't be too bad, but I'm tempted to give 29:00 a bash...

Gringo78

Gringo78 wrote: »

I have a spreadsheet which I'll dig out and attach in a few days...calculates the daniels HR's for you. Its just a rough guide really, after looking at your HR data for a few tempos's and races you'll know yourself what are the correct ones.

Sorry, away on holidays etc so a little late but eventually as promised. Found this excel program on the net someplace so not sure of everything it does but I found the HR's to be close enough to what I've recorded in races. As you get faster, the formulas adjust to have you running at a higher intensity. Just fill in resting HR, MHR, weight, age and a recent race time.

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

Average HR 180 - also good as I did 6:12 per mile in the Adidas half last year, with an average HR of 184.

Did you run the addidas HM even paced at an avg HR of 184? or did you fall dramatically off the pace in the last few miles? Just seems funny to me that you could maintain such a high HR for the HM but not maintain as high in the 10k?? e.g my HR's are say 168 for HM / 171 for 10 miles / 176 for 10km. What was your avg HR for the Raheny 5k?

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

Did you run the addidas HM even paced at an avg HR of 184? or did you fall dramatically off the pace in the last few miles? Just seems funny to me that you could maintain such a high HR for the HM but not maintain as high in the 10k?? e.g my HR's are say 168 for HM / 171 for 10 miles / 176 for 10km. What was your avg HR for the Raheny 5k?

As always Gringo, you're on the ball. I meant the Adidas 5m. (I wouldn't have done it even paced as it's very hilly.) I averaged 180 for the half, at ave. 6:30 per mile, though there were some spikes in there that might have thrown off the calculation. (The flip side of that coin is that there are some hard hills at the end where I definitely slowed down, and my HR dropped to about 175 - at that stage I knew I was going to make my target time and I'd been ill in the weeks leading up to it, so I saved a little for the big day to come) My ave HR for the last section of the 10k was 185, which was the highest of the race. It was only 5 weeks since Edinburgh and I was feeling a bit tired for the week coming up to it - I wouldn't have bet anything on doing that time when I was driving out to it, though I had a faster target.
My HRM died in the lead-up to Edinburgh and I didn't get organised to get a replacement until recently - it arrived on the day of the 10k, so no info for Raheny, which would have been interesting, or Edinburgh, which would have made a good comparison with DCM '09.
Thanks for the spreadsheet, it'll be a hard taskmaster....

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

Just seems funny to me that you could maintain such a high HR for the HM but not maintain as high in the 10k??

Subjectively, 5:48ish pace felt as comfortable at the start of the 10k as 6:10-6:15 felt in the HM. The breathing was surprisingly comfortable throughout, it was just the legs that went a bit wobbly near the end.

As you correctly prescribed, more tempo running needed.

In 2000/2001 I had a series of VO2 max tests where my LT was identified variously as 169-184 bpm, and max HR approx 200. I'm not sure if I've lost a few beats since - the highest reading I've seen from the Garmin that I trust is 195. (working from memory)

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

I went a bit mad on Monday and ordered 7 running books online. It would have been 8 but the Mike Stroud book mentioned by Abhainn was out of stock - I'll look for it in the library.

What are your thoughts on the books you bought? Its time I bought a few and am looking for some recommendations.

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

What are your thoughts on the books you bought? Its time I bought a few and am looking for some recommendations.

I had great intentions of doing detailed reviews here, but there's such a lot of reading I don't feel it would be fair at this stage. However, let me give some first impressions. Just some general remarks though: Firstly, I think it's very hard to avoid some bias - if you find a book that recommends a similar training approach to what you've been following, then you're automatically well disposed towards it. Secondly, you seem to be very scientific about things, and I personally love stuff that is evidence based and can be experimentally proven; however I think it's best to maintain a healthy air of scepticism when reading any running books. It appears that most experimental studies involve groups where it's hard to have an adequate control group, and it's more or less impossible to have a double blind experiment - except maybe with energy drinks, but still, how would you prove someone hadn't done a sneaky bit of training, or was ill, etc.

Anyway:

The Complete Guide to Sports Nutrition by Anita Bean, and Food for Fitness by the same author. €13.14 & €10.57 respectively

Both very well laid out, easy to read, good info on calculating required calorie intake, and amounts of protein / carbs/ fats required. Very good on supplements. Lots of tasty snack recipes - I bought them for this reason as I'm trying to cut down on refined sugar...
Good hints and tips on preparing for particular events.

Lore of Running 4th Edition by Tim Noakes €17.42

This is a huge (950 pages, smallish print) and very comprehensive book. It is laid out in such a way that you can go to the section that most interests you - you don't need to start at page 1 and work forward. There are several articles looking at some of the top athletes and their training schedules - I found that really interesting. The author doesn't include his own training programs but reviews those from others.
One thing that comes across is that the author is really curious, and he has even questioned his own previous writings to the extent that he now gives the brain a much more important role in training and performance.
It is a bit like a college textbook with the level of detail, but none the worse for that.

I wish I'd read the chapter on the effects of temperature before running Edinburgh!

This is a great book, but probably no good on its own.

Daniels Running Formula.

An excellent book, with programs from 800m to marathon. He also gives a thorough explanation of how to structure your own program depending on goals. Noakes would dispute some of the science, especially around aerobic threshold etc, but he does admit the training methods work. There's also some conflict on the topic of hydration. I like the way his marathon programs give two quality workouts per week to be arranged to suit your own schedule.
I also like the athlete profiles.

Advanced Marathoning and Road Racing for Serious runners by Pfitzinger and Douglas, €13.08 each.

I've had a look through both, the first a bit more thoroughly than the second. Both easy to read, again some profiles of runners included. Less detail in terms of pace tables than Daniels, but the training programs are quite prescriptive: Monday do x, Tuesday do y etc. I suppose it's nice to read something written by someone who has performed at the highest level.
The books are similar, but the second one deals with a range of events including XC.

I'd slightly favour Daniels over P&D, but that might be bias on my part.

Brain Training for Runners by Matt Fitzgerald.

This is a really interesting book. It outlines the idea that rather than lactic acid overload, glycogen depletion, cardiovascular limitation etc, the brain / body has some sort of central governor that acts to prevent damage through overexertion. I haven't tried any of the exercises yet. I'm a bit hesitant to give the time to something unproven, but it is something in the back of my mind.

The prices I've quoted are what I paid on Amazon.co.uk, delivery was free. The total price of almost €90 is about the price of a pair of racing flats, and they won't wear out as quick!

aero2k

Ok, so maybe it was only 4.88, but I'm going by the Garmin for the distance (I'm happy to take the chip time as it's 2 sec quicker than the Garmin!)

I was a bit apprehensive about this. I've been training well the last few weeks, more aiming at 10 miles than 5, but I've been feeling a bit tired too, to the extent that I was contemplating a complete break for a week or two, and I'd probably have taken that break by now if I hadn't entered the race series.

I had an enjoyable 8 mile easy run on Thursday with 8 x 100m strides at the end, and I was pleased to ckeck the Garmin later and see that I'd gone a little quicker than usual for the strides. I did a very easy 3-and-a-bit yesterday and though the legs felt a bit sluggish I thought they'd come round by today. I had the usual pre-race night disturbed sleep, but tumbled out of bed at 6.30 without too much difficulty. The upper body was very tight, particularly the shoulders, due to some ambitious woodwork in recent days. I've been even more hungry than usual for the past two days, and I had to struggle not to stuff my face when this feeling persisted this morning. A big mug of tea, some toast, and a strool down to the shop for the paper. The body loosened up nicely after this and I wasn't conscious of any niggles.

A few mates arrived around 9am, then a quick jump into the gear and off for the warm-up. I couldn't seem to get going much quicker than 8 min/mile, however I felt fine and told myself it was probably down to the wind. I did a few strides and lined up near the front. I got chatting to a friend and this helped me relax a lot. I hoped to be able to keep up with her on the way round as I figured this would guarantee me a PB. Before I knew it the siren was going off and we were away.

The start was fine, over the timing mat in 3 secs, and other than being elbowed (unnecessarily I thought) a couple of times, after 200m or so I was running freely. At this stage I was still pretty close behind tunguska, so I reckoned that was a bit quick, as the 5.2x on the Garmin confirmed. I throttled back to around 5.35, about 10 seconds quicker than planned but I felt comfortable and we had a tailwind, so I decided to bank a few seconds.

I hit the mile marker around 5:15 so I knew it was short, but I didn't make the mental connection with my earlier observation that the start was a bit too far East. I decided to trust the Garmin and sure enough it beeped a short time later, 5:37 for mile 1. Off down the Khyber where I encountered some slight congestion - nothing serious but I had to weave gently. My friend from the start line was 150m ahead at this point, but I felt I was going fast enough so I didn't give chase. I got up the hill at Military road without too much of a struggle - I hid from the wind behind some big guys - apart from avoiding the guy who decided to stop on the right, and limp across to the left to stretch his calf on the kerb.

I covered mile 2 in 5:55 and got a bit of much needed support from the folk at the water station. Upper Glen Road didn't seem as hard as it sometimes is and mile 3 was a 6:01 effort.

Mile 4 is the hardest in this race for reasons I don't fully understand. Although the first part of it where the road meanders through the trees is slightly uphill, that in itself wouldn't explain the 6:24 pace my watch was showing. Looking across the bends ahead I spied my friend through the trees, and resolved to catch her. This helped a lot and by the time I got to the Ordinance Survey HQ and the 3.9 (:D) mile marker I was on 6:07 pace.

The breeze seemed to die down as we approached the turn onto Chesterfield Avenue, and I managed to get the legs going. I passed my friend around 800m to go, and managed to average 5:47 for that .9 miles. I was very happy with the time, 28:51 official, which translates to about 29:25 assuming I could have kept going for another 175m.

Great to see tunguska doing a cracking run, and great PBs from Git101 and RQ. Misty Floyd had a great return from injury to finish just outside 30.

Average 5:54 / mile, ave HR 179, max HR 189.

Shame about the distance.:mad:

Racman

Well done Aero2k. As I said after Edinburgh, you have faster times in you. Even though you were a long way ahead of me there, I was just under 28 minutes today. So, either your speed or my stamina can be improved - or both!

aero2k

Racman wrote: »

I was just under 28 minutes today. So, either your speed or my stamina can be improved - or both!

That's a cracking time, 2nd in your category too. Hope you got a prize for that!
Yes, hopefully we can both improve. Last year I did 31:18 (not including 12 secs to tie my laces) with av/max HR of 184/192, so 5 bpm less this year. Even though I couldn't get the legs to go any faster, the pace felt reasonably comfortable, so I'm hoping with more strides, tempo and VO2 max work I'll be able to get the pace up a bit more.

Git101

Well done Aero2k, a great start for the 10 mile target.

I have to admit I'm totally pissed that the course was seemed short, although even if they had extended it by a few hundred metres I would still have had a PD . Aren't drugs great Ted......only joking

aero2k

Git101 wrote: »

Well done Aero2k, a great start for the 10 mile target.

I have to admit I'm totally pissed that the course was seemed short, although even if they had extended it by a few hundred metres I would still have had a PD . Aren't drugs great Ted......only joking

Cheers Git, you did a smashing time too, you're improving a lot quicker than me and I know there's more to come.

Yeah, drugs ftw! (Yes, I do have a TUE)

tisnotover

Great stuff aero, well done, very ncie splits !

Real pity about the course being short...can't believe that in this age like !

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

Great stuff aero, well done, very ncie splits !

Cheers tno, the splits seem to match the Garmin elevation gain/loss fairly well. and there was a nice steady increase in HR all the way - I think I got the effort fairly even, which was the goal. I enjoyed it more than any other 5mile/8k/4.88 mile race and not just for the time, I think I felt better after this than any other one.

Looking forward to the 10 in 5 weeks time.

RacoonQueen

Good to see you again at the finish line and another great result for you. Are you in for the 10k in Parkwest?