AIRGUNS YOUR VIEWS ON THEM.

guns4fun

Iwas wondering what your views are on airgun licencing here.
Was in the U.K. a few weeks ago and went into a shop that sold them and was surprised to see that they are available up to 12 ftlb for rifles and 6 ftlbs pistol without a licence.
The only thing we can get without licence is those low powered airsoft guns,however airsoft guns in the uk have to be brightly colored so as not to look like a real firearm.
Even though the laws there in relation to airguns are fairly strict they are licence free to anyone over 18 years old.
Would you like to see that here or do you agree with our laws???
I would like to see them available with just permission from the super,the same as replicas and blank firers and not have to go through the hassle of club membership and full licence fees.
What are you thoughts on this??

Sparks

We've asked for deregulation of airguns before, and have it to a degree (the legal mechanism that allows for airsoft over here is the same mechanism that allows for airguns to be bought without licence in the UK, the sole difference is the limit on muzzle energy).

The 12 ft/lb for air rifles in the UK is a tad high as a limit perhaps; but the standard 7.5 joule limit that seems to apply in most other EU states would be perfect for our needs. It would allow the Pony club, the Modern Pentathlon and the ISSF sports to take off as a first step into target shooting for youngsters, it would give us a far larger base for the sport, and just about every other sporting discipline in target shooting would also benefit as their takeup rates would increase a few years after the deregulation as people moved from airgun shooting into other forms of shooting.

There would be an argument for a higher limit though - in that paintball markers are basicly 15 joule airguns. But to be honest, I think they should have a special clause of their own as they're so different in design from other kinds of firearm.

guns4fun

The owner of that shop told me that airgun competition is very big in the uk because of the law and there are loads of indoor ranges/clubs available also.
I do know that most shooters here just go for a .22 rimfire instead of the air rifles because of the laws and most airgunners who want to just do casual target shooting will not pay the range fees for the sole use of airguns.
Most people here who do shoot airguns have other target firearms and are club members but joining a club or range for an airgun only seems to be very rare indeed.
Would love to see those indoor airgun ranges here,great for starting off or keeping up airguns and going on to some of the bigger diciplines.
Something the F.C.P. should keep chasing.

Sparks

guns4fun wrote: »

joining a club or range for an airgun only seems to be very rare indeed

Except for those in the Pony Club (who shoot tetrathlon with airguns) and the Modern Pentathlon association (who shoot with air pistols) and the UCD rifle club (who shoot airguns almost exclusively) and WTSC (who also shoot airguns almost exclusively) and DURC (who are split about 50-50 between airguns and smallbore). Collectively, those aren't small numbers but they're often overlooked for some reason.

daveob007

I was in the UK a few years ago with the family,pontins holiday camp in wales and they had an indoor air rifle range that residents could use.
It was all done under the supervision of a range intructor and was very safe.
Just goes to show the difference in attitude we have towards anything that looks like a gun.
I would like to see them licence free here but instead of garda permission the gun would be registered to the buyer and these details kept on a database,,that would rule out the gurriers and idiots buying them.
Its a great sport and pastime,,pity about our oppressive laws here.

Mits

I have nothing against the air guns them self. But I don't think they should be freely available or unlicensed as the majority of people interested in these items will abuse them.

They should be kept for sport only.

I had a bad experience last year when my 7year old daughter was shot in the back by an air gun. There was a group of 12year old taking shots with it. I don't see any reason for this items to be available except for sport and under supervision.

daveob007

Mits wrote: »

I have nothing against the air guns them self. But I don't think they should be freely available or unlicensed as the majority of people interested in these items will abuse them.

They should be kept for sport only.

I had a bad experience last year when my 7year old daughter was shot in the back by an air gun. There was a group of 12year old taking shots with it. I don't see any reason for this items to be available except for sport and under supervision.

Agree with you on that but we are talking about genuine users here and not gurriers and thats why there should be some control over them, but not class them as firearms the same as a shotgun or rifle.
The permission from the super or a registered system would sort that.
The laws in the uk do not allow under 18s to own them and if you are seen in public with one the penalties are severe.
Because of these new laws the misuse of airguns has dropped by a large percentage.

Sparks

Agreed - we control things like alcohol the same way.

johngalway

Too many muppets would use them to shoot anything that moved if they were unlicenced. That is leaving aside the vast majority who would use them responsibly.

Mits

Sorry lads I think the muppets are in the majority and not the responsible users.

I used to shoot rifles myself in the FCA and a gun club and I think it is a great sport. Would also love to see more archery in Ireland. But it has to be controlled.

But unlicensed air guns would worry me.

Sparks

And yet we managed to not bother calling any form of airgun a firearm until 1964, regardless of muzzle energy...

Mits

Sparks wrote: »

Agreed - we control things like alcohol the same way.

I don't think our track record on controlling alcohol will win you a lot points.

guns4fun

Mits wrote: »

Sorry lads I think the muppets are in the majority and not the responsible users.

I used to shoot rifles myself in the FCA and a gun club and I think it is a great sport. Would also love to see more archery in Ireland. But it has to be controlled.

But unlicensed air guns would worry me.

Me too some sort of basic control is needed but not the overkill we have.
Permission from your super would rule out the idiots getting them and causing havoc.
I am surprised that compound bows escaped the new laws,one of those with a metal tip can cause serious damage.
Was in a shop in Limerick a while back and 3 scumbags were buying one of these with aluminium tips.
The owner asked no questions,just wanted to make a quick sale.
If he was required by law to take their names they probably would not have bought it.

Sparks

Mits wrote: »

I don't think our track record on controlling alcohol will win you a lot points.

Actually, the point was that if all we require to control alcohol is a simple (and often unenforced) age limit on sales, despite the tremendous amount of damage it does every year, then forcing people who want to shoot airguns (which are enormously safer by comparison) to go through the full rigors of the current firearms licencing system is, bluntly, daft.

Besides which, it's not like we don't have a dozen proven systems to copy if we wanted to - take France or Germany or almost any EU state as your example.

guns4fun

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, the point was that if all we require to control alcohol is a simple (and often unenforced) age limit on sales, despite the tremendous amount of damage it does every year, then forcing people who want to shoot airguns (which are enormously safer by comparison) to go through the full rigors of the current firearms licencing system is, bluntly, daft.

+1 also tobacco control and traffic offences,,ie mobile phone use while driving is rampant.

daveob007

guns4fun wrote: »

Me too some sort of basic control is needed but not the overkill we have.
Permission from your super would rule out the idiots getting them and causing havoc.
I am surprised that compound bows escaped the new laws,one of those with a metal tip can cause serious damage.
Was in a shop in Limerick a while back and 3 scumbags were buying one of these with aluminium tips.
The owner asked no questions,just wanted to make a quick sale.
If he was required by law to take their names they probably would not have bought it.

were these guys ROBIN HOOD or ROBBING HOODIES????

Odysseus

Personally I would like to see the UK model over here. I have a .22 air rifle it was my first one, then got a shotgun and a .17hrm. TBH the licence procedure put me off for years. I would have had one a long time ago if it wasn't for that. I know of lots of cases of them being brought in the North.

So like all firearms those who want them and are likely to use them for other than sporting reasons have them or can get them if they want them.

mallards

It's not easy to get an Airgun in the North. It is classed as a firearm also and my certificate has been away four months now waiting for one to be added.
I wanted it to control small vermin around the release pens and by this rate the pheasants will already have been raised and flown the coop!
I wouldn't be comfortable with every 18 year old being able to pick one of the shelf and start using it but there should at least be a registration and fee including a garda/police check for an air rifle shooting under 12ft/lbs and those who have an existing firearms certificate can get an unmodified one (18ft/lbs) simply written onto their cert by the dealer.

Mallards

johngalway

Careful what ye wish for lads. The UK model also includes police checks on lands to determine if they're suitable for a certain calibre, or not, if you have a closed ticket.

Odysseus

johngalway wrote: »

Careful what ye wish for lads. The UK model also includes police checks on lands to determine if they're suitable for a certain calibre, or not, if you have a closed ticket.

I know what you mean John, I was speaking only in relation to air guns. Its through my work not personal friends, but in the area I work in a good number of lads have air rifles and no license. It would not be difficult to pick one up, if a person wanted, though the same can be said about anything going from heroin to a glock if you where so inclined.

Pkiernan

My opinion is that licenses should not be required for firearms of any type (nor do I think that an airgun is a firearm).

If a person can prove themselves responsible, they should be granted a general license allowing them to own any calibre or type of gun, from pistol to .50 BMG rifle.

I don't need a different license for each car I own, nor do I need a different type of license for a 1 litre engined Micra or a 6 litre Aston Martin DB9.

daveob007

Pkiernan wrote: »

My opinion is that licenses should not be required for firearms of any type (nor do I think that an airgun is a firearm).

If a person can prove themselves responsible, they should be granted a general license allowing them to own any calibre or type of gun, from pistol to .50 BMG rifle.

I don't need a different license for each car I own, nor do I need a different type of license for a 1 litre engined Micra or a 6 litre Aston Martin DB9.

To say that firearms should not be licenced is crazy
how do you prove that you are a responsible person without garda checks safety records and so on.
If that were the case how many people would get firearms just for the craic and abuse them?? I shudder to think of the outcome if that were the case.
However I do agree that airguns are not firearms but still need some basic control over who has them.
As for any calibre or type of gun,,what reason do you need to own a .50cal bmg or full auto ak47 etc.
The mind boggles.

tac foley

Well, here in UK no archery tackle store would sell a compound bow to anybody without seeing club membership. In fact, most dealers have a discount agreement with local clubs, so that producing your club membership card gets you a bit off - well worth it when the price of an average competition compound bow - without sights and all the doo-dads - is around £800-900.

Betcha the example quoted here was NOT a FITA or FTAA-approved dealership....

tac
Supporter of The Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoraion Fund

Grizzly 45

am surprised that compound bows escaped the new laws,one of those with a metal tip can cause serious damage.
Was in a shop in Limerick a while back and 3 scumbags were buying one of these with aluminium tips.
The owner asked no questions,just wanted to make a quick sale.
If he was required by law to take their names they probably would not have bought it.

For the simple reason a bow &arrow ,does not store the force to be released on demand by a mechanical action.IOW unlike a crossbow or gun the mechanism needed to propel the arrow or bullet is absent on a B&A.
So ,how will you rob a bank ??The moment you reach for the money,you have disarmed yourself,by releasing the tension on the bowstring!
Nor is a B&A very concealable for nefarious deeds.Unless you are either Robin Hood,Rambo or the brothers from the Dukes of Hazzard TV seris,it isnt a very practical proposition as weaponary for the up and coming scumbag in the 21st century.:rolleyes:
It will proably aldo fail the 4Joule test,as I reported once here in Limerick a head shop that was flogging pistol Xbows to a contact in the Gardai.The Gardai said they had raided the shop about these and had to return them,as they were below the 4 joule regulation.Despite them being classified as firearms under our gun laws.
Go figure..

Pkiernan

daveob007 wrote: »

To say that firearms should not be licenced is crazy
how do you prove that you are a responsible person without garda checks safety records and so on.
If that were the case how many people would get firearms just for the craic and abuse them?? I shudder to think of the outcome if that were the case.
However I do agree that airguns are not firearms but still need some basic control over who has them.
As for any calibre or type of gun,,what reason do you need to own a .50cal bmg or full auto ak47 etc.
The mind boggles.

I dont see a reason why an individual gun needs to be licensed, surely just the gun owner.

As to "the outcome", I have 19 pistols, rifles and shotguns in my safe in my house in California. I have never even gotten a speeding ticket.

I have one rifle here in Ireland, and pose no more of a safety threat to anyone than my 80 year old auntie.

Having a seperate piece of paper for each firearm does not make anyone more or less "safe". I realise that Ireland is not the US, but my argument is still valid.

As to why anyone would own a .50 BMG, they are fun to shoot, but to be honest too pricey for me.
To quote the guy on Sky News - "what do people need shotguns for - to shoot bunny rabbits??"

daveob007

Pkiernan wrote: »

I dont see a reason why an individual gun needs to be licensed, surely just the gun owner.

As to "the outcome", I have 19 pistols, rifles and shotguns in my safe in my house in California. I have never even gotten a speeding ticket.

I have one rifle here in Ireland, and pose no more of a safety threat to anyone than my 80 year old auntie.

Having a seperate piece of paper for each firearm does not make anyone more or less "safe". I realise that Ireland is not the US, but my argument is still valid.

As to why anyone would own a .50 BMG, they are fun to shoot, but to be honest too pricey for me.



I took you up wrong on your post. apologies, thought you meant that firearms of all types should be licence free.
as for the one piece of paper,would be better to licence the user and not each gun,just like in the uk where a firearm cert covers all available firearms and lasts for 5 years.

Grizzly 45

as for the one piece of paper,would be better to licence the user and not each gun,just like in the uk where a firearm cert covers all available firearms and lasts for 5 years.

OR the other option..Is we make it very stringent with written,oral and practical tests to own ANY type of firearm here,and then however you can liscense any and as many as you want ,and you have the liscense for LIFE! You can only lose it then thru reckless stupidity.IE endangering somone else,DUI for as long as your ban lasts.If you cant be entrusted to drive a car while drunk,can you really be entrusted with a gun??

Would that be a better option,to arbitary decisions by a person in power,who might or might not know anything about firearms and have a personal grudge against them,with shifting legal goalposts and a revenue gathering exercise every three years for the state??
Personally the former is becoming a good option these days.So long as the Irish Govt isnt involved in setting it up!:eek:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So ,how will you rob a bank ??The moment you reach for the money,you have disarmed yourself,by releasing the tension on the bowstring!

It's a good thing bank robbers never ever ever work in teams of two or more then!

Grizzly 45

NITPICKER!!!Always have to find fault with things dontya??:D
Anyways,it is not going to be that easy to hide an english longbow under your hoodie top and walk down the street is it?Or a compound bow either.
Be better off building a half decent zip gun out of some pipe and plumbing fittings,to hide under your coat,than be struggling with a awkward yoke that stands out like a sore thumb.

Sparks

True, but hiding an air rifle is about as hard.
Besides, if the worry is accidents or people misusing sports equipment to hurt others, I'd be more worried about archery than target shooting, and frankly, I don't worry about archery.

Grizzly 45

Well, considering there has been more mayhem,GBH and death done with ,cricket bats,baseball bats,hockey sticks,,barbell weights and rods,gaff hooks,and golf clubs than air rifles or firearms,maybe those sports equipment should be liscensed??

Sam I Am

While I see the point and like the idea of licencing the user rather than licencing the firearm. It would mean that someone who is only interested in air rifle has to pass the same level of scrutiny, club membership, lands to shoot on, home security (monitored alarm etc etc) as someone who wants to own 1 of everything, from air rifle to, I dunno, an AK47 (or some other super duper excessive something or other).
This is of course all hypothetical, if only discussion, but how about a system whereby you are licenced to own/use a particular class of firearm - as with the driving licence... just cos I'm able to drive a car, doesn't mean I should head off in an artic.

juice1304

just like in the states you mean

Grizzly 45

Err,No??Certain types of irearms in the US are liscensed on a federal level.It is a myth that everything is freely available over there.
Well coming back to dealing with air rifles.Most of the world sees them as in the non firearm category too,as they dont use a powder charge to propel the bullet.We just had to be one better here in the 1960s I guess...,have heard the story that the "Usual suspects" were converting them to fire .22 LR ammo..If they were doing that...why not just build yourself a homemade SMG it is just as complicated and more effective.
So by rights,air guns should be off ticket items..But because of Moron abuse,it wont happen.

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

Careful what ye wish for lads. The UK model also includes police checks on lands to determine if they're suitable for a certain calibre, or not, if you have a closed ticket.

You should study the guidelines again :eek:

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

You should study the guidelines again :eek:

I've read them, not my fault you've no mountains

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

I've read them, not my fault you've no mountains

I have they're just not in my immediate area My point would be that is this not the beginning of the Gardai "checking" the proposed area for the firearm sought as they do in UK?

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

I have they're just not in my immediate area My point would be that is this not the beginning of the Gardai "checking" the proposed area for the firearm sought as they do in UK?

Possibly could be alright. I'd question how well they could implement such a system given the complete lack of checkpoints for drink driving etc I see in this part of the world since budget/over time cutbacks. If they can't do that job, they surely can't spare people to check land. I won't go near having an informed opinion on what calibres that land would be fit for as it may well ruin my day thinking about it.

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

Possibly could be alright. I'd question how well they could implement such a system given the complete lack of checkpoints for drink driving etc I see in this part of the world since budget/over time cutbacks. If they can't do that job, they surely can't spare people to check land. I won't go near having an informed opinion on what calibres that land would be fit for as it may well ruin my day thinking about it.

I agree with you 100% BUT look you hardly expect common sense to be a part of it though

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

I agree with you 100% BUT look you hardly expect common sense to be a part of it though

Expecting common sense is often a bridge too far.

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

Expecting common sense is often a bridge too far.

Ya, unfortunately

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If they were doing that...why not just build yourself a homemade SMG it is just as complicated and more effective.
.

They did :eek:

Grizzly 45

An "Ulster funnygun" or "Harland&Wollf Special";) Crude,homemade,and 100% more effective than some monkeyd together single shot .22 air rifle converted to fire .22lr rounds.:rolleyes:

cavan shooter

I thought about getting a 22 air rifle but at €1000 for weiruch went for a 22 rimfire instead. Dont get me wrong I used a top of the range pneumatic, but I found that a very good one with decent accuracy and range couldnt stand side by side to even a inexpensive rimfire. Yes I know Im not comparing like for like, however in the end I stuck to rimfires.

IMO all firearms except for airsoft toys should be licenced, I dont believe in being able to buy over the counter firearms without some "control". This annoys some people and I am sure I'll be slapped into my box shortly,

You cant ignore the fact that some plick will buy an air rifle etc and act the maggot with it etc etc shooting cats, dogs and even cars as has happened in the UK.

a licence acts as a deterent in many instances, you have to show you have a good reason,
some spare cash,
and an interest (member of a club) or at least you went to an effort to get farmers signatures.

ivanthehunter

Look if you're into vermin control in a hobby way, you're let down by not having access to an air rifle--
All too often the rimfires are simply too powerful to be considered around farmyards and "house locked fields".. To be an all-rounder at the vermin control you need to be able to meet land owners requests to deal with vermin under any circumstances....
Here the inherently Irish unavailability of air rifles due to our indifferent licencing policies regarding air rifles verses reg rifle, has left safe shooters at a disadvantage, unsafe shooter are taking risky shots..




Also
IMO it should be common practice that any rifle hunter should be allow hold one 12ft/lb air-rifle against their name. The control could be set by registration as it is in Spain by any 16 year old kid..

I would not like to see the system that allows for uncontrolled sales to any body over 18.... I'd feel as if i should go out walking wearing safety glasses:eek:....

The powers that be are not going to allow individuals to buy all their guns on one licence but some common sense might seep through and allow the addition of an air rifle to an existing standard rifle licence..

To be able to deal with vermin one should have access to
an air rifle, a rimfire, a shotgun and a foxing grade rifle.

Grizzly 45

IMO all firearms except for airsoft toys should be licenced, I dont believe in being able to buy over the counter firearms without some "control". This annoys some people and I am sure I'll be slapped into my box shortly,

You cant ignore the fact that some plick will buy an air rifle etc and act the maggot with it etc etc shooting cats, dogs and even cars as has happened in the UK.

Trouble is an air rifle is only seen as a "firearm " here in Ireland.The PTB anywhere else classify it as a non firearm,as they do spear guns,crossbows and anything else that does not use a powder propellant in an enclosed cartridge case.In some cases even muzzle loaders that are single shot can be bought no problem.You need to liscense the powder component.So in Europe in some parts,you can have rakes of different types of BP single barrel muskets or rifles,or pistols no problem as wall hangers,as you wont get the powder for them without a seperate liscense.[Germany]
Others ,you can buy any BP firearm and ammo over the counter,provided you are a resident without any registration [France]
Poland sells over the counter air rifles that are well over the12ftlb limit,Ditto ASFIK Spain
Both countries sell airguns freely and yet you NEVER hear of them being abused by Numpties over there,and there are plenty of muppetts over there as well.With more opportunities to create problems.. So why is it that we seem to either have [a] a growing pouplation of idiots and morons who ruin it for everyone else?? a more totalitarian govt in both Ireland and the UK on this [c] maybe because we have unarmed police forces,and the continent they are armed,so the chance of some fool mucking around with an air rifle might attract a leathl response from the copper on the beat?? Think it is a combo of all three.:(

ivanthehunter

The problem here from the get-go is that rifles are not divided in to classes for the purpose of licencing.

A first time licence shooter can successfully apply for a 223 or a 270 without ever building up any skill with a little rimfire first..:eek:

And i hear you about the BP muzzle loader issue-- hobbys are being severely curtailed if your an average earner. If you filthy rich you can go buy any amount of original BP muzzle loading rifles at 10-15K a pop with out licence. But if you want a skillfully crafted working reproduction then its licence time plus 2-3k???.. wheres the extra danger that warrants such a policy??? FIIK?..

A vermin shooters needs at least four guns IMO and if the government thought one caliber would suit all then we'd only be allowed one..

daveob007

It all comes down to the fact that airguns are not classed as such here but classed as firearms which is a joke if you look at other countries who do not even licence them.
We can use far more powerful firearms for hunting/vermin but have to join a range for the use of a .177 air pistol or air rifle which has hugely less lethal power than even a .22 rimfire.
Even if they still insisted on a licence they could at least allow the use of airguns on private land for target shooting or even on your own property.
We do seriously need a new system where all guns are broken down into their various categories unlike the new system that declares a firearm/airgun as restriced or not.
I don't want them licence free because there will be ass___es who will shoot you dog or break your windows,or injure you child,but would like to the laws been relaxed in relation to airguns that go up to a certain power limit.
Some people are afraid that yobbos will abuse them but the fact is that there are plenty of them around because they are simple to bring into this country form the uk/france/spain by people who go on hols.
Even before airsoft was allowed here loads of young fellas were bringing them home from spain and little trouble was caused,the same goes for airguns.but theres always one that will do the stupid thing.
The novelty wears off pretty quickly unless you are a shooter and many sheds and attics around the country have these things rusting away after the novelty has worn off.

ivanthehunter

daveob007 wrote: »

The novelty wears off pretty quickly unless you are a shooter

The reality is that vermin shooters here in Ireland can not commit to buy an expensive air rifle, not because of cost but because of the unwritten policy of limiting the number of firearms an individual owns.
IMO most people are put of with the idea of confrontation with the authorities about firearms and will opt out of such confrontation for any number of reasons ranging from financial to fear, but thats just my opinion.

This harsh reality is compounded by the restrictions of use as set out in the wildlife acts with the main issue revolving around bird shooting or its statues as illegal, yet we have all heard of citizens being granted written permission for the local Garda Stn's to carry out that very act.

I'm unsure of the existence of a legislative policy that allows for such permissions to be granted by An Garda but the simple fact remains that this piece of legislation is unworkable and cannot be adhered and the garda could vouch for that if they were all for fair play.

Air rifles IMO should not be counted on the "Security requirements" as long as its under a stated energy value. I'd like to see 12 or 18 ft/lb units available and i even pay the 80euro/(I'd licence it!) and lock it up---but its seems laughable that a shotgun can sit in a house with no safe and that buying a limited power air rifle could put you into the monitored alarm zone or higher:mad:

landkeeper

modern airguns ar far from toys , and are a fantasic way for a young lad to learn how to judge range and distance , it's a shame in my book that it's not possible to get an airrifle here without all the rigmarole , i don't think that they should be uncontrolled but a simple system could licence them if needs be , an air rifle is a versatile and usefull addition to anyones collection , rats in and around buildings etc quietly and safely , i grew up with a succession of air rifles starting with a humble bsa airsporter , through various wiehrauchs and feinwerkbraus in fact i bought my first shotgun nearly 30 years ago with money earned shooting rabbits for the local game dealer @ pound a piece and pigeons coming in to roost ah happy memories
it'd be good to see the airifle as a option for young lads to learn with

ivanthehunter

landkeeper wrote: »

it'd be good to see the airifle as a option for young lads to learn with

This POV is probably noted by the British military machine.. IMO;)