Pulled with out of date tax/insurance

FeetMagicII

Just got pulled over in my sister's car which is very rarely used. Guards seized the car and I have 10 days to produce insurance which I don't possess. I have a full licence for whatever little it matters. What sort of repercussions am I looking at here? I've told them the car hasn't been used in months and I presumed the tax/ins was in date. Unfortunately both are out by about 6 months. Is there anything I can do here, like purchasing insurance right away?

johnos1984

6 points, car crushed and a fine

Even if the car was insured your probably not covered anyway unless you were named or else had your own

I don't have sympathy as it would of been a mess had you been in a crash for yourself and the other party

FeetMagicII

johnos1984 wrote: »

6 points, car crushed and a fine

Even if the car was insured your probably not covered anyway unless you were named or else had your own

I don't have sympathy as it would of been a mess had you been in a crash for yourself and the other party

Is this 100% the case?
I have to pay E125 tomorrow to get the car back apparently. Can they take it again to crush it?

R.O.R

FeetMagicII wrote: »

Is this 100% the case?
I have to pay E125 tomorrow to get the car back apparently. Can they take it again to crush it?

Will you have insurance to pick up the car? They'll only release it to someone who can prove they are insured, or on the back of a pick up truck.

If you can't get it out tomorrow they'll continue to charge storage.

FeetMagicII

R.O.R wrote: »

Will you have insurance to pick up the car? They'll only release it to someone who can prove they are insured, or on the back of a pick up truck.

If you can't get it out tomorrow they'll continue to charge storage.

They said I have 10 days to produce the insurance (which I do not have) but said the 125 must be paid tomorrow.

johnos1984

They can't take it again to crush it unless you are stopped a second time or else you don't collect it and pay your fine and storage

You will need someone with insurance to pick it up. They will need a certificate to prove it.

The points and fine correct, I'm almost 100% the car is crushed if its not picked up and fine paid

FeetMagicII

johnos1984 wrote: »

They can't take it again to crush it unless you are stopped a second time

You will need someone with insurance to pick it up. They will need a certificate to prove it.

The points and fine correct, I'm almost 100% the car is crushed if its not picked up and fine paid

Is there any hope that purchasing insurance would help?

johnos1984

Your policy start sate would be AFTER you drove without it.

It will only help if you are going to continue driving. However I'm not sure about the legalities or even if you will be able to get it now that you have been caught. You may have to inform them first about what has happened

tommyhaas

I got my car taken off me by the guards a few years back for not having tax, once the car was taxed I showed them the cert, paid the 125 + 50 per day it was there and that was that. If you get insured you should be able to get the car back alright, but you'l probley still get done over driving without insurance

bigjohnny80

Getting insurance now won't help.

I hope they throw the book at you.

CosmicJay

bigjohnny80 wrote: »

I hope they throw the book at you.

Nice. :pac:

Unfortunately it came down to the fact that you were driving without tax or insurance. There really isn't any way of squirming out of that one. Surely you would of copped that the tax and insurance disc was out of date?

Even if you get a policy now it will have the start date and time, which is after you were pulled. So you will be done for driving without insurance.

Good luck in getting the car back.

ottostreet

6 months out?

that was smart.

Big Nasty

Look lads,

The chap knows he did wrong and has openly admitted so.

He was in the wrong and knows it but all he's asking is there any way he can be helped out of the situation or retrieve his sisters car without increasing penalties.

If you can provide helpful advice do so - that's what this forum is all about. If all you can do is slate him for his admitted mistakes you're not much help.

(insert name)

If you're insured with Quinn on another car, i believe you may be covered under "driving other cars".

Quinn do not require the car you drive to be insured itself.

read your policy and you may be able to get out of it

CosmicJay

(insert name) wrote: »

If you're insured with Quinn on another car, i believe you may be covered under "driving other cars".

Quinn do not require the car you drive to be insured itself.

read your policy and you may be able to get out of it

That requires the car to be taxed and nct'd. If not they dont cover him on the car. Maybe you could say that you had third party extension (providing its in your policy of course) They might not realise the car needs to be taxed to be covered and just let you away with no road tax?

Tefral

Failure to have motor insurance or driving without insurance in Ireland is generally punishable by:

-A fine of up to €2,500
-Disqualification of one year or more for a first offence and two years or more for a second offence, and
-At the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.

In the case of a first offence of driving without insurance, the court may decide in special cases not to impose a period of disqualification or to impose a period of disqualification of less than a year.

Since 1 June 2003, where the courts in Ireland decide not to impose a disqualification, drivers convicted of a first offence of driving without insurance will incur 5 penalty points on their licence record in addition to any other penalty imposed by the court.

If you commit a second offence for driving without insurance, you will be automatically disqualified from driving.


If you hold an insurance policy for another car, you will most likely be covered to drive other cars under the 3rd party extension, for which is standard in alot of policys.

Eoin

FeetMagicII - do you or your sister have any sort of motor insurance policy?

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Look lads,

The chap knows he did wrong and has openly admitted so.

He was in the wrong and knows it but all he's asking is there any way he can be helped out of the situation or retrieve his sisters car without increasing penalties.

If you can provide helpful advice do so - that's what this forum is all about. If all you can do is slate him for his admitted mistakes you're not much help.

Please don't back-seat moderate.

Edit - don't anyone start posting any "high horse brigade" crap please. It's really old at this stage.

robtri

nothing you do now will help in any shape of form when the case goes to court..

if you want to pick up car, you will need to have proof of insurance in place
or
putting it on a tow truck
or
having somebody else who has proof of insurance that they are covered to drive your car pick it up..

usually 125 to pick up next day, but i believe for every extra day you leave it there in the impound lot, it costs extra per day....

no offence 6 months... thats dumb but you will pay for it now in court....

Big Nasty

eoin wrote: »

Please don't back-seat moderate.

Edit - don't anyone start posting any high horse crap please.

Wasn't!

There was no help being posted, only high horse statements hence my post!

rebel.ranter

Hi OP, similar to what eoin has asked, are you a named driver on any other insurance policy? If you are then there may be a chance that you have "driving of other cars" on that policy. That might remove the most serious charge here.

johnos1984

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Wasn't!

There was no help being posted, only high horse statements hence my post!

There was one unhelpful post.

The rest had informed the OP that they face points, a fine and a possible ban.

Your horse was well over 17 hands

Eoin

Can we please stop with all the stupid high horse comments and get back on topic

johnos1984

eoin wrote: »

Can we please stop with all the stupid high horse comments and get back on topic

sounds funny. especially when I see your 'Location' :D

SV

ottostreet wrote: »

6 months out?

that was smart.

regarding the tax..ya can't talk!


but yeah OP, you're fecked!

CharlieCroker

car was siezed under S.41 of the Road Traffic Act 1961-2006. €125 towing charge and €35 per day storage until the car is collected. Car must be taxed and insured OR be recovered on a towtruck/trailer before it will be released.

If you fail to produce within 10 days, you'll be summonsed for:
-no insurance
-fail to produce insurance within 10 days
-fail to display valid insurance disc.
and any NCT/driving licence offences if applicible.

The summons will take a few months to go to court, when it does the penalties above will apply. Bare in mind that most judges I've seen show very little leniency for driving without insurance. Its up there with drink driving in terms of seriousness in most peoples opinion.

Eoin

johnos1984 wrote: »

sounds funny. especially when I see your 'Location' :D

I actually put that as my location because I always thought it was a stupid idea that just because someone admits to acting like a dick on the road means that nobody is allowed tell them that.

Anyway, back on topic

CharlieCroker

CharlieCroker wrote: »

The summons will take a few months to go to court, when it does the penalties above will apply. Bare in mind that most judges I've seen show very little leniency for driving without insurance. Its up there with drink driving in terms of seriousness in most peoples opinion.

I'm going to strongly resist the urge to bring this thread off topic

Back to the OP, absolutely no point in now getting insurance as the cert will show you were not covered. Best thing is to admit to the Gardai that you were not insured, it matters little if you stick to the I thought the car was insured story or not. As mentioned don't dream of turning up at the station with €125 and the intention of driving off in the car.

poodles

eoin wrote: »

FeetMagicII - do you or your sister have any sort of motor insurance policy?



Please don't back-seat moderate.

Edit - don't anyone start posting any "high horse brigade" crap please. It's really old at this stage.

LOL

Are you for real man?

"Don't back seat moderate"?

sorry but that comes across as very losery

Demonon

If you have no insurance that covers you 3rd party only on other vehicles then there is nothing more you can do now. Wait for the court summons and talk to a good solicitor who deals with motor offences. Meanwhile start saving for the fine, could be anything from €300 to €2000 (just estimates, don't take my word!)

dublinguy2004

FeetMagicII wrote: »

Is there any hope that purchasing insurance would help?

ROFL

Cabaal

(insert name) wrote: »

If you're insured with Quinn on another car, i believe you may be covered under "driving other cars".

Only if that "other car" also has insurance...which it didn't so thats no good to the OP

CosmicJay

Cabaal wrote: »

Only if that "other car" also has insurance...which it didn't so thats no good to the OP

Quinn don't require the other car to have an insurance policy on it.

Just that its roadworthy and has tax and nct.

-Chris-

poodles wrote: »

LOL

Are you for real man?

"Don't back seat moderate"?

sorry but that comes across as very losery

a) Back seat modding is a real thing, and is banned by every Charter on boards

b) Disputing mod decisions on-thread is also banned because it derails the thread

c) Directly insulting other users (i.e. you're a loser) is also against the Charter


Take 3 days off to familiarise yourself with the charter (the link's in my sig), and post a bit more maturely when you come back.

Thanks

Jo King

Whatever you do, do not admit to the guards there was no insurance. There is a potential defence available given that it was not your own car. You need a good motoring lawyer, and some good luck, to get out of this situation.

MagicMarker

Jo King wrote: »

Whatever you do, do not admit to the guards there was no insurance. There is a potential defence available given that it was not your own car. You need a good motoring lawyer, and some good luck, to get out of this situation.

facepalm

R.O.R

Jo King wrote: »

Whatever you do, do not admit to the guards there was no insurance. There is a potential defence available given that it was not your own car. You need a good motoring lawyer, and some good luck, to get out of this situation.

MagicMarker wrote: »

facepalm

I'm sure he's only JoKing................



see what I did there?

tooler7

ottostreet wrote: »

6 months out?

that was smart.

we have all made mistakes in the past

Tefral

Jo King wrote: »

Whatever you do, do not admit to the guards there was no insurance. There is a potential defence available given that it was not your own car. You need a good motoring lawyer, and some good luck, to get out of this situation.

Ignorance isnt a defence in court, its the drivers responsibility to ensure that the car is taxed, insured and nct'd (where applicable)

cursai

I can tell you exactly. The vehicle will not be released until the registered owner of the vehicle somebody with insurance turns up to drive it. Once that has been established. the towing and storage charge has to be paid. Usually €110 + (€35 per night calculated until midnight of the night) Seems to be different at every station or else i just forget.
Then you will be summonsed to court for driving with no insurance, non display of insurance. you didnt say whether you had tax or not, if not the same will apply for the vehicle road tax.
If convicted you could face a fine (determined by the judge- €250+ and up to six penalty points or disqualification for a period determined by the judge or imprisonment for a period(will only happen if you tell the judge to fudge off).

You will not be able to back date insurance although i have heard stories where Quinn will backdate if there was no accident involved but they will charge you for it.

What you can do for the moment is to get the car back quickly as you will pay storage every day until you do and to be polite to the Guard who seized the vehicle from you. Explain your case and this will make court easier. Most guards don't want to bear heavy on decent people who screw up and will guide you through the process. Anybody who says different are usually rude or obnoxious to the guard.....

Dont pay heed to the advice pleading ignorance, there is no defence for this, you can get a solictor but they usually cost more than the court fine itself.
Lastly what the fudge were you thinking.

Gophur

FeetMagicII wrote: »

Just got pulled over in my sister's car which is very rarely used. Guards seized the car and I have 10 days to produce insurance which I don't possess. I have a full licence for whatever little it matters. What sort of repercussions am I looking at here? I've told them the car hasn't been used in months and I presumed the tax/ins was in date. Unfortunately both are out by about 6 months. Is there anything I can do here, like purchasing insurance right away?

You cannot be serious?


BTW, you will not have your full licence for too much longer. The likes of you (uninsured drivers) are a blight on our roads and the removal of such from the roads is welcomed.

Jo King

cronin_j wrote: »

Ignorance isnt a defence in court, its the drivers responsibility to ensure that the car is taxed, insured and nct'd (where applicable)

I never said ignorance was a defence! It is not the defence I was suggesting. There is a defence available which has worked from time to time in the courts. I am not going to say what it is on this thread. People can and do plead guilty of insurances offences which they might have got out of on a daily basis. Some people fight and escape. I would rate the o/ps chances at better than 50% of getting off, if he is properly advised.

djimi

Jo King wrote: »

I never said ignorance was a defence! It is not the defence I was suggesting. There is a defence available which has worked from time to time in the courts. I am not going to say what it is on this thread. People can and do plead guilty of insurances offences which they might have got out of on a daily basis. Some people fight and escape. I would rate the o/ps chances at better than 50% of getting off, if he is properly advised.

Im not really sure what kind of defense he has tho. What are you suggesting that the OP say in his defense? Whatever they might try and say, it comes down to the car and driver not having any insurance on the car, and considering it is up to the driver to ensure that they are insured properly before getting behind the wheel, Id say there is little that they can say to get themselves out of this one. Like has been said, no matter what route you take, ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law ("I didnt know the car wasnt insured your honor"), and assumptions do not hold up in court ("I assumed it was insured your honor").

Jo King

djimi wrote: »

Im not really sure what kind of defense he has tho. What are you suggesting that the OP say in his defense? Whatever they might try and say, it comes down to the car and driver not having any insurance on the car, and considering it is up to the driver to ensure that they are insured properly before getting behind the wheel, Id say there is little that they can say to get themselves out of this one. Like has been said, no matter what route you take, ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law ("I didnt know the car wasnt insured your honor"), and assumptions do not hold up in court ("I assumed it was insured your honor").

I am not getting into giving legal advice to the o/p on the thread. I have already said his defence is not based on ignorance. Giving advice on a public forum is highly prejudicial to the o/p. I have seen the defence I am thinking of work on a number of occasions. I have also seen idiot solicitors and barristers ignore it and advise the client to plead guilty.

BeardyGit

cursai wrote: »

I can tell you exactly. The vehicle will not be released until the registered owner of the vehicle somebody with insurance turns up to drive it. Once that has been established. the towing and storage charge has to be paid. Usually €110 + (€35 per night calculated until midnight of the night) Seems to be different at every station or else i just forget.
Then you will be summonsed to court for driving with no insurance, non display of insurance. you didnt say whether you had tax or not, if not the same will apply for the vehicle road tax.
If convicted you could face a fine (determined by the judge- €250+ and up to six penalty points or disqualification for a period determined by the judge or imprisonment for a period(will only happen if you tell the judge to fudge off).

You will not be able to back date insurance although i have heard stories where Quinn will backdate if there was no accident involved but they will charge you for it.

What you can do for the moment is to get the car back quickly as you will pay storage every day until you do and to be polite to the Guard who seized the vehicle from you. Explain your case and this will make court easier. Most guards don't want to bear heavy on decent people who screw up and will guide you through the process. Anybody who says different are usually rude or obnoxious to the guard.....

Dont pay heed to the advice pleading ignorance, there is no defence for this, you can get a solictor but they usually cost more than the court fine itself.
Lastly what the fudge were you thinking.

If you're going to state that you "can tell you exactly", at least be accurate when you state specifics in terms of fines, points and so on. CharlieCroker is a man 'in the know' and what he has stated is correct in terms of the penalties which may be applied to the OP.

There's a difference between an insurer agreeing to renew a policy which may have lapsed for a period of a few days, on the basis the policy holder had understood it would renew automatically (I've personal experience of this happening with Quinn), and agreeing to back date a policy where the original policy had expired months beforehand.

Quinn Direct will not back date insurance for a new policy application. No insurer will, despite whatever pubtalk you might have heard. Insurance companies won't provide anyone with a way to get around the illegality of having driven with no insurance in place - it's not in their interest to facilitate people that are clearly prepared to take unacceptable risks, which is what the OP did. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

There's no way to avoid a court appearance in your case OP, and it really comes down to the court now to apply whatever penalties they believe appropriate. If the cover on the vehicle was only a few days out, you might have stood a chance of some understanding from the judge in terms of how heavy handed they'd have been, perhaps even avoiding a disqualification if you were suitably represented and had put cover in place immediately. A period of 6 months out of cover is too much though, and I'm pretty sure you realise that yourself.

So in practical terms you're most likely going to have some fines to pay, points on your license and a ban of unspecified duration plus the associated endorsement on your license for 3 years from the disqualification dates. For most people that'll rule out obtaining any kind of affordable insurance, as the loading is pretty severe in terms of premium. Failure to disclose an endorsement or disqualification can be used to void your insurance (and it would, make no mistake) in the event of an accident, so you just have to consider the fact you'll not be driving for a good while after your court appearance, unless you've money to burn.

Again in practical terms this means you've to start considering your own situation. Think about how you get to college/work, the nature of your work in terms of whether you've to travel and how you'll get around, along with the possible impact in terms of limiting your job choices for the short to medium term.

It's a tough situation to face into, but it's not the end of the world. Make a few practical plans now to limit how much of an impact it has on your day to day plans.

In relation to the car being impounded, get it out today if you can. You'll either need to back tax the car and have a properly insured driver collect it for you, or you can have a recovery company take it home for you. The costs can mount up quickly if you don't act now.

Hope that's some practical help and advice for you.

And I know it goes without saying, but don't ever take the chance again. You're being penalised now on the basis of the very real hardship and damage you could have caused and done to other people on the roads.

Mary Hairy

RoverCraft wrote: »

I
There's no way to avoid a court appearance in your case OP, and it really comes down to the court now to apply whatever penalties they believe appropriate.

the o/p has to be convicted before the question of penalties arises.

Driving of servant not covered by insurance - Complaint against servant dismissed - Whether master guilty of offence - Road Traffic Act, 1933, s. 56 (3).

P.R., a servant of the defendant, on the orders of the defendant, drove the defendant's motor car into the town of Boyle. At that time P.R. was not the holder of a driving licence, and had never been the holder of such a licence, and the driving of the motor vehicle was not covered by insurance. The defendant, having permitted the said vehicle to be driven at a time where there was not in force an approved policy of insurance, contrary to section 86 of the Road Traffic Act, 1933, was charged with an offence under the provisions of sub-section 3 of the same section. Held: R. having driven the vehicle at a time when it was not covered by insurance, had acted in contravention of the prohibition contained in section 56 of the Act, even though he was entitled to the benefit of the special defence provided by sub-section (6) of the section, and that, accordingly, the defendant, in permitting the driving of the vehicle when it was not covered by insurance, had acted in contravention of the section and had committed an offence under the provisions of sub-section 3 of section 56 of the Act.
Attorney-General (Hayes) v. Downes
(H.C.)
93 I.L.T.R. 121 93 I.L.T.R. 121

FeetMagicII

RoverCraft wrote: »

If you're going to state that you "can tell you exactly", at least be accurate when you state specifics in terms of fines, points and so on. CharlieCroker is a man 'in the know' and what he has stated is correct in terms of the penalties which may be applied to the OP.

There's a difference between an insurer agreeing to renew a policy which may have lapsed for a period of a few days, on the basis the policy holder had understood it would renew automatically (I've personal experience of this happening with Quinn), and agreeing to back date a policy where the original policy had expired months beforehand.

Quinn Direct will not back date insurance for a new policy application. No insurer will, despite whatever pubtalk you might have heard. Insurance companies won't provide anyone with a way to get around the illegality of having driven with no insurance in place - it's not in their interest to facilitate people that are clearly prepared to take unacceptable risks, which is what the OP did. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

There's no way to avoid a court appearance in your case OP, and it really comes down to the court now to apply whatever penalties they believe appropriate. If the cover on the vehicle was only a few days out, you might have stood a chance of some understanding from the judge in terms of how heavy handed they'd have been, perhaps even avoiding a disqualification if you were suitably represented and had put cover in place immediately. A period of 6 months out of cover is too much though, and I'm pretty sure you realise that yourself.

So in practical terms you're most likely going to have some fines to pay, points on your license and a ban of unspecified duration plus the associated endorsement on your license for 3 years from the disqualification dates. For most people that'll rule out obtaining any kind of affordable insurance, as the loading is pretty severe in terms of premium. Failure to disclose an endorsement or disqualification can be used to void your insurance (and it would, make no mistake) in the event of an accident, so you just have to consider the fact you'll not be driving for a good while after your court appearance, unless you've money to burn.

Again in practical terms this means you've to start considering your own situation. Think about how you get to college/work, the nature of your work in terms of whether you've to travel and how you'll get around, along with the possible impact in terms of limiting your job choices for the short to medium term.

It's a tough situation to face into, but it's not the end of the world. Make a few practical plans now to limit how much of an impact it has on your day to day plans.

In relation to the car being impounded, get it out today if you can. You'll either need to back tax the car and have a properly insured driver collect it for you, or you can have a recovery company take it home for you. The costs can mount up quickly if you don't act now.

Hope that's some practical help and advice for you.

And I know it goes without saying, but don't ever take the chance again. You're being penalised now on the basis of the very real hardship and damage you could have caused and done to other people on the roads.

Thanks very much for the advice. Just with regards the tax, is it likely that they will back-tax the car? Was trying to ring all day but no answer so I will go into the office tomorrow.

BeardyGit

This isn't a legal discussion Hairy Mary, but the question of penalties is most certainly open for discussion and comment before a court may find the OP guilty of whatever charges he faces. He's in trouble and wanted to know how best to deal with it in practical terms.

So, what's your point? That someone got off before because they as a servant were ordered by their master to drive the car? Do you think that sets legal precendent that would actually apply to the OP? Do you think that'll suffice to get him off whatever charges he may face?

I hate to burst your bubble Hairy, but that's not going to cut it. The district court is where the case will be heard, judgement made and penalties applied. The OP can of course appeal it, take it to a higher court and so on where a barrister may argue his case referring to precedent (and at not inconsiderable cost), but even that's a bit thin, all things considered, isn't it? He wasn't a servant. He wasn't ordered to drive the car. He was driving the car of his own free will, on his own terms, without adequate insurance..... That's nothing like the case to which you refer.

Those are the facts. He knows it. The Gardaí know it. And the judge will know it. You might want to encourage him to pursue some form of legal defense, and he might indeed want to do so.

And if the OP's paying attention, he'll go speak with a solicitor for the legal advice bit, rather than pinning his hopes on your particularly weak suggestion of a defense.

The rest of us, your good self excluded I reckon, will give the laypersons guide based on our own experiences.

Best of luck OP, I'm done.

BeardyGit

FeetMagicII wrote: »

Thanks very much for the advice. Just with regards the tax, is it likely that they will back-tax the car? Was trying to ring all day but no answer so I will go into the office tomorrow.

The one thing you'll never have trouble doing in this country is getting revenue to take your money That said, you will need an insurance certificate covering the vehicle to allow you tax it I believe - The motor tax office will advise you I'm sure....

If the car has been off the road for the interim period, and I mean that - ONLY if it's been off the road, get a declaration filled in and signed in your local Garda station for the complete months during which it wasn't on the road. If it was out and about at all during that time, either in your hands or anyone elses, don't get yourself in further trouble by making a false declaration....

liamodr

FeetMagicII wrote: »

Thanks very much for the advice. Just with regards the tax, is it likely that they will back-tax the car? Was trying to ring all day but no answer so I will go into the office tomorrow.

You need an insurance policy number in order to get motor tax. The insurance must be current on the first day of the tax renewal period. You may then pay motor tax arrears for the 6 months. Looks like you need to get insurance sorted first in order to get the car taxed so you can get the car released (AFAIK).

Mary Hairy

Precedent can be argued in the District Court. I quoted that precedent to show rthat it is not automatic for the driver of an uninsured car to be convicted. The o/p should of course go to a solicitor and get one who will instruct a competent barrister. I know a guy who drove hios mothers car uninsured and got off in the District Court using the servant argument.

CharlieCroker

Hairy Mary, get it right. He will be summonsed for an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1961 -2006!!! That supercedes anything before that, such as the Road Traffic Act 1933.

All the proofs are there for a conviction
-driving
-mechanically propelled vehicle
-public place.
- failure to provide proof of insurance.


It is (i think) the only offence where the proof of innocence rests with the alleged offender. (i.e. production of insurance cert)