hover board room

Xios

So watching bttf (back to the future) the other day, and was thinking.
If you filled a room floor with magnets with polarities pointing north towards the ceiling, and got a board, with north polarities facing towards the floor, would the board hover with good stability or will it just flip as the south polarities are pulled round?

Is this possible?
Has it been done?

It'd make a friggin sweet funfair ride.

Owen

Google hoverboard, and you'll find a recent implementation as an art piece. They had to regulate the boards position using lasers and electromagnets.

There is something you've suggested done similarly, a levitating bed. It had to be kept in place by tethers at each corner.

Mr. Incognito

This is pretty much how the high speed trains in Europe operate- by magnets

FarmerGreen

How about a Jetpack?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-KczCp0OQ4&feature=fvw

Capt'n Midnight

it's very hard to do with static magnetic fields

moving magnetic fields is much easier , magnetic levitation



of course you could cheat and use a material that is repelled by magnets, like very thin slices of bismuth. ( thin because bismuth is used in place of lead for some applications )

Professor_Fink

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

it's very hard to do with static magnetic fields

Actually, there is a theorem. Turns out it is impossible with ferromagnets.

Offy

Professor_Fink wrote: »

Actually, there is a theorem. Turns out it is impossible with ferromagnets.

Is it possible using diamagnetic materials? Could enough force be generated to lift the weight of a human?

SOL

What's the theorem called? I'm now kind of fascinated... I can imagine a number of probable scenarios that you could make it work with ferromagnets... what are the constraints of the theorem?

Capt'n Midnight

Offy wrote: »

Is it possible using diamagnetic materials? Could enough force be generated to lift the weight of a human?

It''s already been done with a frog

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_levitation

for a human you would just need a much stronger magnet

Offy

SOL wrote: »

What's the theorem called? I'm now kind of fascinated... I can imagine a number of probable scenarios that you could make it work with ferromagnets... what are the constraints of the theorem?

Is it Littlewood's Tauberian theorem?

gentillabdulla

I just thought I would throw this out there...

Why not use a ring shaped object with magnets on it to push another ring shaped object, which is hollow, that has large openings for air?

These air openings could hold the air and send it through tubes that are on the side of the object but curve downward. These tubes could get increasingly smaller allowing the intensity to increase due to the limited opening and the excessive amount of air.

Providing an uplifting force that could use several of these objects placed below a board.

Similar to the board used in bttf.

I have a drawing of it let me see if I can bring it here.(If you guys are still interested. Will be waiting further reply for continuation.)

Offy

gentillabdulla wrote: »

I just thought I would throw this out there...

Why not use a ring shaped object with magnets on it to push another ring shaped object, which is hollow, that has large openings for air?

These air openings could hold the air and send it through tubes that are on the side of the object but curve downward. These tubes could get increasingly smaller allowing the intensity to increase due to the limited opening and the excessive amount of air.

Providing an uplifting force that could use several of these objects placed below a board.

Similar to the board used in bttf.

I have a drawing of it let me see if I can bring it here.(If you guys are still interested. Will be waiting further reply for continuation.)

Im interested, please post the picture.

gentillabdulla

Here it is...

http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad20/g_mobster2/timemachinepictures.jpg

Someone tell me if this link does or doesn't work.

Offy

gentillabdulla wrote: »

Here it is...

http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad20/g_mobster2/timemachinepictures.jpg

Someone tell me if this link does or doesn't work.

The link works but I can not see from the diagram how the device works. A diamagnetic material will repulse magnetic forces whether they be north facing or south facing. The diagram and description you have given seems to descripe a magnetic air pump, perhaps with the right materials the 'pump' might lift itself but could it lift a human?

Offy

Xios wrote: »

So watching bttf (back to the future) the other day, and was thinking.
If you filled a room floor with magnets with polarities pointing north towards the ceiling, and got a board, with north polarities facing towards the floor, would the board hover with good stability or will it just flip as the south polarities are pulled round?

Is this possible?
Has it been done?

It'd make a friggin sweet funfair ride.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/6166507/Nasa-scientists-levitate-mice-with-magnet.html

I suspect that the forces required for levitating a human or a device carrying a human are beyond our abilities to generate at present.

gentillabdulla

Offy wrote: »

The link works but I can not see from the diagram how the device works. A diamagnetic material will repulse magnetic forces whether they be north facing or south facing. The diagram and description you have given seems to describe a magnetic air pump, perhaps with the right materials the 'pump' might lift itself but could it lift a human?

I was thinking about using ferromagnetic materials, but diamagnetic materials would work too.

Again at the time I was focused on ferromagnetic materials.

I believe after a certain speed for the rotating hollow is reached that the apparatus could lift a human significantly high off of the ground.

gentillabdulla

See there is one outer ring, which has 3 rows of magnets on them all the same polarity.But slanted in a certain direction.Middle row straight, top row slanted downward, and bottom row slanted upward.

Then there is a hollow ring with slits that take in the air.

The ring stated right above, which will now be known as the hollow ring, also has rows of magnets, whereas these rows are aligned so the magnets aren't slanted.These magnets all repel themselves along with the magnets from the outer ring.

Now as I stated the hollow ring has openings to take in the air.
These openings are located on the sides where the magnets are not located.

In other words this means the top and bottom faces of the hollow ring.

Now these slits take in the air. The air is then released through tubes that get increasingly smaller and descend to the center of the apparatus.

The pressure increases due to the amount of intake increasing and the amount of out put being limited.

Creating an enhanced push for the board and lifting the apparatus upward.

Again these are ferromagnetic materials.

FarmerGreen

Ummmm
How do the magnets affect the air flow?

Why is the air flowing ?

Your post makes no sense at all.

I have a cunning plan. It involves six surfboards and six leaf blowers.
The details are obvious.
Then you, gentillabdulla stand in the middle of it and throttle up.
Let us know how you get on.

It may be a good idea to have a 'collective', all throttles together and a 'differential' ie cyclic, back/forward/left/right.

Not sure how to implement a yaw contol, but it probably wont matter that
much if you actually get it off the ground. Just push it back on the deck if it
gets out of hand.
Gently abdulla gently.

I am so looking forward to seeing the results of your work kiddo.
It is achievable, I'm not making fun of your imagination.

gentillabdulla

FarmerGreen wrote: »

Ummmm
How do the magnets affect the air flow?

Why is the air flowing ?

Your post makes no sense at all.


I am so looking forward to seeing the results of your work kiddo.
It is achievable, I'm not making fun of your imagination.

The air is going into the hollow ring because the hollow ring catches the air due to the slits, the problem is this is done very inefficiently.

You see lets say you have a cone and you are tying to scoop ice cream. The ice cream is moving clockwise.You can't scoop the ice cream if it you also move clockwise. You have to move counter clockwise.

It goes against the air to catch the air.

Then the air is pressurized through the tubes and you know the rest.

Offy

gentillabdulla wrote: »

The air is going into the hollow ring because the hollow ring catches the air due to the slits, the problem is this is done very inefficiently.

Kind of like how a helicopter operates? Arent helicopter blades a simpler version of what you are thinking of? Are you suggesting the blades might be turned using magnetic force rather than a combustion engine?

gentillabdulla

Offy wrote: »

Kind of like how a helicopter operates? Arent helicopter blades a simpler version of what you are thinking of? Are you suggesting the blades might be turned using magnetic force rather than a combustion engine?

Yes they are a simpler version.

Well I use rings rather than blades. But the blades could be done through magnetism but I doubt that would be very efficient the magnets would lose their magnetic fields but you have a better environment.

Which would you rather use?

Offy

gentillabdulla wrote: »

Yes they are a simpler version.

Well I use rings rather than blades. But the blades could be done through magnetism but I doubt that would be very efficient the magnets would lose their magnetic fields but you have a better environment.

Which would you rather use?

I wouldnt use either, both defeat the purpose of the OP.

FarmerGreen

I would love to live in an alternative universe where magnets attract air
through a venturi providing propulsion.
Or shining a blue laser between magnets results in time travel.
Unfortunately some people are full of crap.

gentillabdulla

FarmerGreen wrote: »

I would love to live in an alternative universe where magnets attract air
through a venturi providing propulsion.Unfortunately some people are full of crap.

I never said magnets attract air.

There is air all around us that causes us to breathe.

The magnets are used to help take in the air, into the hollow chamber.

So when it moves it catches the air due to the trapezoid shaped slits.

Let me give you an analogy...

Your driving and a dog thats in the car sticks his head out the window.

Now tell me is the dog attracting air?

The dog is just accelerating and the air is coming towards the dog.

This is what is happening with the trapezoid shaped slits.

They are moving and the air goes into the chamber and pressurizes.

The magnets are just accelerating the hollow chamber.

Yes unfortunately some people are full of crap.
"It pays to keep an open mind but not so open that your brain falls out." - Carl Sagan

Offy

I think with electromagnets made up with semiconductor coils lining the floor and a flat 'board' coated in a diamagnetic material like Phosphorus it might be possible to do but why would you do it? The cost of manufacturing such a room would be high, probably to high to make money from it as a funfair ride. IMO Semiconductor wire isnt cheap and the cores would also have to be made of an expensive material, SS430fr or NickelIron or some thing similar. The bigger the room the more coils you would need. It all adds up but using this method you would keep the board simple and light.
As to an air propulsion system hover board, Im not sure a power source of permanent magnets would generate enough rotary force to lift anything near the size of the hover board in BTTF. Its about the size of a skateboard, even if you could generate enough lift it would need to be stable. This would require control circuits which require electricity to operate. More weight added to the requirements of the magnets and now you need two power sources, thats twice as many things that could go wrong. Designs are best kept as simple as possible.
With the hover board coated in a diamagnetic material every point on the board would automatically seek a stable point. No electrics are required. It would sit on the magnetic forces from the electromagnets like a surf board sits on the sea. *I think!*

Offy

Another solution might be to use chemicals as the power source. As I recall jetpacks operate by using the energy produced in a chemical reaction to create lift. Its possible to redesign and miniaturise the jetpack design to produce something like the hover board in BTTF. With some pressurised bottles of the right chemicals connected to some kind of flat frame its technically possible. Im sure you would get some lift that could be controlled to a certain extent but by miniaturising the pressurised bottles you would reduce the amount of time you could hover for. It might require a lot of refills!

gentillabdulla

Offy wrote: »

As to an air propulsion system hover board, Im not sure a power source of permanent magnets would generate enough rotary force to life anything near the size of the hover board in BTTF. Its about the size of a skateboard, even if you could generate enough lift it would need to be stable. This would require control circuits which require electricity to operate. More weight added to the requirements of the magnets and now you need two power sources, thats twice as many things that could go wrong. Designs are best kept as simple as possible.

Yeah I have problems with the power source.

I think I should use both permanent magnets and electromagnets.

Permanent magnets could be used if the electromagnets fail.(Because it would lead to the descending of the hover board so it wont kill you.)


I was thinking to use a 3 layer system on the hover board.Where each layer has each of these "propellers" and they are angled differently.

I.e. the middle layer will be straight, the left layer would be slanted to the left, and the right layer slanted to the right.

So it could allow for some steering through your legs.Like a normal skateboard.

Or a steering wheel to turn all propellers at once.

Offy

gentillabdulla wrote: »

Yeah I have problems with the power source.

I think I should use both permanent magnets and electromagnets.

Permanent magnets could be used if the electromagnets fail.(Because it would lead to the descending of the hover board so it wont kill you.)


I was thinking to use a 3 layer system on the hover board.Where each layer has each of these "propellers" and they are angled differently.

I.e. the middle layer will be straight, the left layer would be slanted to the left, and the right layer slanted to the right.

So it could allow for some steering through your legs.Like a normal skateboard.

Or a steering wheel to turn all propellers at once.

How much force do you want it to generate?

gentillabdulla

Offy wrote: »

How much force do you want it to generate?

Do I have a specific number? No.


Approximately how much force do I want? I want each one to have approximately 20 kilograms of upward force each.

So when the skateboard part comes in it would use about 8 of these in each row.

And with 3 rows that would be 480 kilograms of upward force.

Xios

gentillabdulla wrote: »

Do I have a specific number? No.


Approximately how much force do I want? I want each one to have approximately 20 kilograms of upward force each.

So when the skateboard part comes in it would use about 8 of these in each row.

And with 3 rows that would be 480 kilograms of upward force.

Average male weight, 82kgs, are you trying to lauch them into the ceiling?
Also, your plans for making a magnetic helicopter have no play in this thread, this boards needs to be magnetically lifted, no using downward flowing air, if that's what was needed then i'd just buy one of these

which would be many times more efficient than your wacky little gizmo idea. They can be electric powered too, for saving our precious planet.

Offy

gentillabdulla wrote: »

Do I have a specific number? No.


Approximately how much force do I want? I want each one to have approximately 20 kilograms of upward force each.

So when the skateboard part comes in it would use about 8 of these in each row.

And with 3 rows that would be 480 kilograms of upward force.

1 Kg = 1 Newton app. so if a person weighs 100Kgs then 100 Newtons of force are required plus the force required to life the board itself. Double this figure as not all humans weigh the same. 480 Kgs would result in a very big hover board, I suspect half of 480Kgs would be more than enough. Eight air blowers would be four times the cost of two air blowers. Are eight necessary? Trying to stabilise eight air blowers would also be required to keep the board level.
20Kgs of upward force would not be cheap to manufacture. I dont see any way with present technology of fitting eight such devices into something the size of a skateboard tbh.

gentillabdulla

Xios wrote: »

Average male weight, 82kgs, are you trying to lauch them into the ceiling?
Also, your plans for making a magnetic helicopter have no play in this thread, this boards needs to be magnetically lifted, no using downward flowing air, if that's what was needed then i'd just buy one of these
which would be many times more efficient than your wacky little gizmo idea. They can be electric powered too, for saving our precious planet.

Yeah but it would be magnitudes less fun.

I am trying to get a sustained force.

Ah but what causes the flowing of the air?That's right magnets.

Well mine can be electrically powered too!

Mine is more fun.

gentillabdulla

Offy wrote: »

1 Kg = 1 Newton app. so if a person weighs 100Kgs then 100 Newtons of force are required plus the force required to life the board itself. Double this figure as not all humans weigh the same. 480 Kgs would result in a very big hover board, I suspect half of 480Kgs would be more than enough. Eight air blowers would be four times the cost of two air blowers. Are eight necessary? Trying to stabilise eight air blowers would also be required to keep the board level.
20Kgs of upward force would not be cheap to manufacture. I dont see any way with present technology of fitting eight such devices into something the size of a skateboard tbh.

I wanted smaller more pressurized rings to create better flow.

Making them smaller but requiring more power.

I am going to draw how it looks and post it if you are still interested.

I am going to wait until your reply to do so.

I don't really NEED 8 it was just an estimate.

I would just use 5.(1 for each direction including upwards)

gentillabdulla

The Hover board has been invented.Too bad you can't stand on it.

VIDEO of it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNX1hTEI_W8&feature=player_embedded

Link to article about it....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1283754/The-real-Back-Future-hoverboard-shame-stand-it.html

How it works....

Two electromagnets are located in the plinth onto which the hoverboard is placed. The board itself has two electromagnets inside it, and the two repel each other.


A laser inside the hoverboard links the two and makes sure they remain stable enough to keep it 'afloat'.


It can carry a weight up to 2kg and can only move up and down, but Mr Guadagnin said it was a 'good start'.

Offy

gentillabdulla wrote: »

The Hover board has been invented.Too bad you can't stand on it.

VIDEO of it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNX1hTEI_W8&feature=player_embedded

Link to article about it....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1283754/The-real-Back-Future-hoverboard-shame-stand-it.html

How it works....

Two electromagnets are located in the plinth onto which the hoverboard is placed. The board itself has two electromagnets inside it, and the two repel each other.


A laser inside the hoverboard links the two and makes sure they remain stable enough to keep it 'afloat'.


It can carry a weight up to 2kg and can only move up and down, but Mr Guadagnin said it was a 'good start'.

Have a look at this: http://www.physics.ucla.edu/marty/diamag/
and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOt-rYBu0gg

I prefer this way of doing it. The hover board would not need a power supply with diamagnetic materials.

gentillabdulla

Nice vid Offy!;)

(I still like mine. More fun, at least for me anyway.:rolleyes:)

Capt'n Midnight

'tis a pity that bismuth is so heavy

is there like a Faraday cage effect with magnetisim ?
or is it a skin depth thing like RF ?

could you coat something / someone with a thin coating of bismuth and next thing you know we have landspeeders



does the earth's magnetic field mean that bismuth atoms are being pushed into space

Offy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

'tis a pity that bismuth is so heavy

is there like a Faraday cage effect with magnetisim ?
or is it a skin depth thing like RF ?

could you coat something / someone with a thin coating of bismuth and next thing you know we have landspeeders



does the earth's magnetic field mean that bismuth atoms are being pushed into space

Im not sure if there is a Faraday case effect, my area is mechanical engineering so I work with magnetism from the material properties point of view rather than the traditional electromagnetic end of things. With electromagnetic fields the magnetic strength is concentrated near the energy source. As you go further away from the source the strength of the field reduces so it is not uniform. With electromagnets the core (metal bar that is been magnetised) is only a magnet as long as the coil has electricity flowing through it. As I recall magnetic forces work like electrical forces on an atomic level. Its the spin of electrons in (I think) the 3s and 4d shells that allow a material to fall into the category of magnetic. Electrical flow aligns the spin of the electrons and creates magnetic forces. A better explanation can be found here:
http://www.coolmagnetman.com/maghow.htm
Permanent magnets are a different beast, the magnetic forces are constant from north pole to south pole so you could say the force is uniform throughout the magnet. Once you magnetise a iron bar the magnetic strength is distributed evenly throughout the iron bar all the domains are all aligned but if you attach another iron bar to the magnetic one the field in the second iron bar is not as strong.
I think that the earths magnetic field isnt strong enough to effect diamagnetic materials in the way you described but Im not sure about that. The repulsion forces from a diamagnetic material are small but in some cases can have a very negative effect on magnetic forces. For example if you plate a solenoids iron core with 1-2 microns of a diamagnetic material and try to use it with the same device that was designed for an un-plated core of iron the device more than likely wont work. To get it working again you would have to increase the electrical supply by perhaps up to twice what it was originally.
Have a look here:
http://www.instructables.com/answers/Magnetic-LevetationA-Magnet-Levitating-between-t/
and here:
http://www.physics.ucla.edu/marty/diamag/ajp601.pdf
if your interested in bisumth levetation.

gentillabdulla

FarmerGreen wrote: »

I would love to live in an alternative universe where magnets attract air
through a venturi providing propulsion.
Or shining a blue laser between magnets results in time travel.
Unfortunately some people are full of crap.

May I ask what the point of this comment was?

(I had already mentioned to you there was no attraction of air.)