Changes to the new 25B bus route in Lucan

Lucan123

I’ve noticed that Dublin Bus have made changes to the route that the new 25B will make.

According to their website: http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Network-Direct/

This feedback from customers has been very informative and following this period of consultation, Dublin Bus has revised some of the proposed service changes. These adjustments are highlighted below and are changes from the original proposals.

The consultation period for this first phase will end on Friday June 18th 2010. All comments received prior to this will be assessed before final changes are decided.

• Route 25b will operate from Adamstown via Foxborough to Leeson Street.
• Routes 25a and 25b will be combined from the junction of Griffeen Avenue / Griffeen Road giving a 5 minute peak and 15 minute off peak service to and from Leeson Street. (The unique sections on these routes will offer services of 10 minutes peak and 30 minutes outside peak times).
• Route 151 will be extended to Foxborough and connections can be made at this point with Routes 25a and 25b.
• Frequencies on some routes have changed as a result of the above.

This is the link to their revised map
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/5996/Lucan5.pdf

This is a link to the original proposed map
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/6133/Lucan%204.pdf

greengraz

This proposed change is a disgrace and I'm aware of a number of people who feel likewise.

Here's the problem as I see it:

The original proposed changes were met with general satisfaction so the small minority of people who have a problem with it only attended the public meeting that was called to discuss it. Why would people who understood and accepted the changes attend? They wouldn't.

So the dissent of the minority was taken as the general view.

The way Dublin Bus have gone about this is disgraceful and the quality of their research is shocking:

• I only found out about this because my brother in law happened to see it on the DB site
• Why aren't leaflets etc. being given out on the busses?
• Why hasn't the view of regular commuters been canvassed? The public meeting is the wrong forum to take in isolation because you will only get the few dissenters turning up.
• On ringing DB to enquire, I was told the new loop would only add 6 minutes journey time!! Nonsense!! Those of you who use this route will attest that it can very often take 20 minutes to go from the junction of the Outer Ring Road at Griffeen Avenue, through Foxborough and back onto the Outer Ring Road at Ballyowen (Penny Hill). This journey along the Outer Ring Road as per the original proposed 25B route would take less then 2 minutes and there is also a bus lane.This is totally at odds with the first benefit DB list on their site for these changes regarding more direct routes.
• The 6 minutes quoted to me is clearly someone from Dublin bus simply driving the extra loop at off-peak times.

The existing EFFICIENT AND WELL USED SERVICE (the 25X's that come down Griffeen Avenue are full at or before Superquinn Lucan so is a FULLY SUBSCRIBED service) was to be superseded by an acceptable change which has now been changed again to an utterly unacceptable change - all seemingly for a very small minority of commuters. However with the recent proposed change to the 151 changing the terminus from Grange Castle/Kishogue to Foxborough they will have a better bus service then they currently have even if they are not served by the 25B. Further, the 25A & B routes practically overlap now and don't serve the various areas of Lucan equitably.

The buses will be full by the time they reach Foxborough anyway, so these guys won't be able to get on regardless

The 25A route continues to serve Foxborough and at more frequent intervals so I'm not sure why they feel they're losing out particularly with the enhanced 151 service for them also.


Many of the users from early in the 25A route will actually be better served by using the new 25B under the old proposed route. Under the new proposals, they are practically the same so utterly defeating the purpose of the changes DB are instigating generally

The vast majority of the 25B users under the original proposed new route are now being penalised to appease a small minority.
Given that the morning 25X's that run down Griffeen Avenue and out to the N4 via the Newcastle Road are going to be gone, the logical assumption is that people will transfer from this to the originally proposed 25B route as being the most direct for them and not going 'all around the world.' As above, the current 25X is full by Superquinn on the Newcastle Road so together with the Adamstown commuters which are now in the mix, it's fair to say that the 25B under the original proposed route would be full long before reaching Foxborough.

To reiterate too, the majority of commuters are unaware of these latest changes unless they log into the Dublin Bus site which many people have no inclination to do as a) frequent bus users know their route and are not checking timetables etc. and b) people were under the impression that the proposed route would not be change, certainly not for the worse which this route has now done.
The communication and consultation process has been poor.


I personally will be doing all I can to stop this propoased change. I know others who are going to do likewise and I would urge all 25A & 25X commuters to check the proposals and if unhappy with them (and I would be amazed if people are happy with them) lobby to get the original route change reinstated.

Cookie_Monster

greengraz wrote: »

This proposed change is a disgrace and I'm aware of a number of people who feel likewise.
...
I personally will be doing all I can to stop this propoased change. I know others who are going to do likewise and I would urge all 25A & 25X commuters to check the proposals and if unhappy with them (and I would be amazed if people are happy with them) lobby to get the original route change reinstated.

well said & a well thought out arguement. You certainly should get on to DB with that post and maybe your local representatives stating how the sensible proposed changes have now been ruined by a minority. Even getting one of the papers to carry the story may be worthwhile, so at least people are made aware how this costly far reaching review is being watered down by a minority who have been put out slightly.


I stated in the DB review thread that this would likely happen somewhere within the network, pity I was proved correct. This change doesn't really have any benefits over the previous, slower longer more indirect. not really the aim of the review

greengraz

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well said & a well thought out arguement. You certainly should get on to DB with that post.

I certainly will, I have a mail prepared and I'll be sending tomorrow night. There's no point in sending it over the weekend as DB won't pick it up.

I'll be contacting the local representatives also.

Everyone affected who disagrees (and I'm sure most commuters will disagree with the proposed changes) needs to do their bit also. This silly change can only be reversed if enough people oppose it. DB have said they will leave this proposal open to the end of June to see the response it gets.

Tomtdowling

greengraz wrote: »

This proposed change is a disgrace and I'm aware of a number of people who feel likewise.

Here's the problem as I see it:

The original proposed changes were met with general satisfaction so the small minority of people who have a problem with it only attended the public meeting that was called to discuss it. Why would people who understood and accepted the changes attend? They wouldn't.

So the dissent of the minority was taken as the general view.

The way Dublin Bus have gone about this is disgraceful and the quality of their research is shocking:

• I only found out about this because my brother in law happened to see it on the DB site
• Why aren't leaflets etc. being given out on the busses?
• Why hasn't the view of regular commuters been canvassed? The public meeting is the wrong forum to take in isolation because you will only get the few dissenters turning up.
• On ringing DB to enquire, I was told the new loop would only add 6 minutes journey time!! Nonsense!! Those of you who use this route will attest that it can very often take 20 minutes to go from the junction of the Outer Ring Road at Griffeen Avenue, through Foxborough and back onto the Outer Ring Road at Ballyowen (Penny Hill). This journey along the Outer Ring Road as per the original proposed 25B route would take less then 2 minutes and there is also a bus lane.This is totally at odds with the first benefit DB list on their site for these changes regarding more direct routes.
• The 6 minutes quoted to me is clearly someone from Dublin bus simply driving the extra loop at off-peak times.

The existing EFFICIENT AND WELL USED SERVICE (the 25X's that come down Griffeen Avenue are full at or before Superquinn Lucan so is a FULLY SUBSCRIBED service) was to be superseded by an acceptable change which has now been changed again to an utterly unacceptable change - all seemingly for a very small minority of commuters. However with the recent proposed change to the 151 changing the terminus from Grange Castle/Kishogue to Foxborough they will have a better bus service then they currently have even if they are not served by the 25B. Further, the 25A & B routes practically overlap now and don't serve the various areas of Lucan equitably.

The buses will be full by the time they reach Foxborough anyway, so these guys won't be able to get on regardless

The 25A route continues to serve Foxborough and at more frequent intervals so I'm not sure why they feel they're losing out particularly with the enhanced 151 service for them also.

Hi greengraz,

I fully agree with you this is a revision from the original displayed by Dublin Bus at Supequinn some weeks ago.

The new changes to the 25B means we now have a duplication of routes with the 25A which is something the Deloitte report had highlighted on many Dublin Bus routes and recommended change.

You are perfectly right Dublin Bus have made no effort to make they travelling public aware of these changes and why the have been amended?.

This is not an acceptable changes to the 25B route, you have my support and I will be contacting Dublin Bus this morning about these changes.

Tom Dowling www.tomdowling.ie

KC61

Tomtdowling wrote: »

Hi greengraz,

I fully agree with you this is a revision from the original displayed by Dublin Bus at Supequinn some weeks ago.

The new changes to the 25B means we now have a duplication of routes with the 25A which is something the Deloitte report had highlighted on many Dublin Bus routes and recommended change.

You are perfectly right Dublin Bus have made no effort to make they travelling public aware of these changes and why the have been amended?.

This is not an acceptable changes to the 25B route, you have my support and I will be contacting Dublin Bus this morning about these changes.

Tom Dowling www.tomdowling.ie

From what I'm gathering these changes are as a result of the feedback that the company has been getting from customers.

They have been completely open with their plans from the start, and in fairness they appear to be prepared to listen to customers. How can you say they've told no-one? It clearly states that on the website, which is the main manner of communication with the customers. If people aren't happy then I'd suggest that they get in touch with the Network Direct office and put their views forward.

There is a consultative process underway and if people don't put their views forward formally then they can hardly complain. The best thing that people can do is get in touch with the company and convince them to reverse the decision.

Incidentally, from looking at the map, the 25a/25b are an integrated route in terms of scheduling so there is no clash with the Deloitte recommendations. The problem that they alluded to was buses operating on similar routes with no timetable co-ordination.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well said & a well thought out arguement. You certainly should get on to DB with that post and maybe your local representatives stating how the sensible proposed changes have now been ruined by a minority. Even getting one of the papers to carry the story may be worthwhile, so at least people are made aware how this costly far reaching review is being watered down by a minority who have been put out slightly.


I stated in the DB review thread that this would likely happen somewhere within the network, pity I was proved correct. This change doesn't really have any benefits over the previous, slower longer more indirect. not really the aim of the review

The 25a/25b will now avoid Chapelizod all day - that is a saving of at least 10 minutes on every journey. Is that not a benefit?

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

The 25a/25b will now avoid Chapelizod all day - that is a saving of at least 10 minutes on every journey. Is that not a benefit?

yes, it is but it is mostly offset by the above mentioned diversion. 6 minutes minimum...

lord lucan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yes, it is but it is mostly offset by the above mentioned diversion. 6 minutes minimum...

And that's only 6 minutes at off peak times. Foxborough is a disaster in the morning and evening,buses get backed up badly. I'm not sure who DB were listening too but it's an awful decision to revise the original draft.:mad:

greengraz

KC61 wrote: »

From what I'm gathering these changes are as a result of the feedback that the company has been getting from customers.

They have been completely open with their plans from the start, and in fairness they appear to be prepared to listen to customers. How can you say they've told no-one? It clearly states that on the website, which is the main manner of communication with the customers. If people aren't happy then I'd suggest that they get in touch with the Network Direct office and put their views forward.

There is a consultative process underway and if people don't put their views forward formally then they can hardly complain. The best thing that people can do is get in touch with the company and convince them to reverse the decision


Incidentally, from looking at the map, the 25a/25b are an integrated route in terms of scheduling so there is no clash with the Deloitte recommendations. The problem that they alluded to was buses operating on similar routes with no timetable co-ordination.

Sorry - how can you say they've been completely open? Anytime there's a fare increase they have inspectors on the buses giving out details.

The original proposals were flagged in the media. These latest ones were not. Given regular commuters know their timetables etc., what reason is there for them to log into the site? The communication has been totally inadequate.

Re the changes based on feedback, think about it - who would feedback? Those who feel they're losing out i.e. Foxborough/Earlsforth residents. The majority of affected users were satisfied with the original change so would not have felt the need to provide feedback.

The process DB have used is wrong - the affected users on the mornign rush hour routes should all have been informed - for such a significant change, it is DB's duty to do so.

The new changes will add potentially 20 minutes in each direction onto the journey of all commuters before Foxborough. By routing through Foxborough/Earlsforth, DB have effectovely turned this into the 25A which defeats the purpose of Network Direct.

And the 25X via Griffen Avenue option is gone so there is no way of now avoiding the unnecessary 25B Foxborough/Earlsforth loop.

KC61

greengraz wrote: »

Sorry - how can you say they've been completely open? Anytime there's a fare increase they have inspectors on the buses giving out details.

The original proposals were flagged in the media. These latest ones were not. Given regular commuters know their timetables etc., what reason is there for them to log into the site? The communication has been totally inadequate.

Re the changes based on feedback, think about it - who would feedback? Those who feel they're losing out i.e. Foxborough/Earlsforth residents. The majority of affected users were satisfied with the original change so would not have felt the need to provide feedback.

The process DB have used is wrong - the affected users on the mornign rush hour routes should all have been informed - for such a significant change, it is DB's duty to do so.

The new changes will add potentially 20 minutes in each direction onto the journey of all commuters before Foxborough. By routing through Foxborough/Earlsforth, DB have effectovely turned this into the 25A which defeats the purpose of Network Direct.

And the 25X via Griffen Avenue option is gone so there is no way of now avoiding the unnecessary 25B Foxborough/Earlsforth loop.

My point is that people need to express their opinions one way or the other.

By doing nothing they can't then come along to complain.

Dublin Bus stated at the outset that there would be a consultative process - surely that implies that the plans may actually change?

Lucan123

Dublin Bus has been very open with their plans ... at the start. They have made changes that most people would not be aware of (even if they attended the road show) until they get on the 25B on the first morning and it takes the long detour through Foxborough, which they would not expect.

They have been completely open with their plans from the start, and in fairness they appear to be prepared to listen to customers. How can you say they've told no-one? It clearly states that on the website, which is the main manner of communication with the customers.

The main point of reference on their website "Lucan/North Kildare April Changes" do no make reference to changing the route to go through Foxborough. Their FAQ's section has not been updated and still says the 25B will go the Outer Ring Road.

The only page that lists the changes was an update to an existing page that has tags telling Search Engines like Google only to check the page for every 4 weeks. The only reason Google will now show it now in their results are the links from this site! This was my main reason for posting in the first place ... people don't know.

r3nu4l

Just to let you know that there is more discussion on this topic here in the Dublin County West forum

Tomtdowling

KC61 wrote: »

From what I'm gathering these changes are as a result of the feedback that the company has been getting from customers.

They have been completely open with their plans from the start, and in fairness they appear to be prepared to listen to customers. How can you say they've told no-one? It clearly states that on the website, which is the main manner of communication with the customers. If people aren't happy then I'd suggest that they get in touch with the Network Direct office and put their views forward.

There is a consultative process under-way and if people don't put their views forward formally then they can hardly complain. The best thing that people can do is get in touch with the company and convince them to reverse the decision.

Incidentally, from looking at the map, the 25a/25b are an integrated route in terms of scheduling so there is no clash with the Deloitte recommendations. The problem that they alluded to was buses operating on similar routes with no timetable co-ordination.

Dublin Bus held an information day at Superquinn in Lucan which was very informative. As an active member in the community on balance most of the commuters I have been in contact were happy with the proposed changes.

1.The Deloitte report made it very clear that there were duplication of many routes. The latest changes to the 25B route clearly duplicates the 25A route for all but the first section.
2. The Deloitte report also stated the need to for more direct routes....hence the name given to your given to your suggested changes 'Network Direct' to now claim that re routing the 25B is 'Network Direct' is a joke. This is the slowest part of the 25A journey. Why on earth would you subject a new route to follow the path of an existing route. It makes no sense.
3. If Dublin Bus are going to engage with the public at events like Superquinn, it should at least have the decency to come back to those same people and put on display any proposed changes. There are many I know who would not support the changes to the 25B in fact some would say they are daft. Simply putting it up on your website is not enough, the least you could do was have flyers on the Lucan buses to alert people. Do you think commuters go on Dublin Bus website every evening looking for updates?.
4. The new route for the 25B will add another 6 minutes on the journey time according to Dublin Bus. I would clearly dispute that but even if it were only 6 minutes, why on earth do Dublin Bus want to inflict this on commuters?
5. Even Bus drivers in the area suggest the new 25B plans is a bad idea.
6. I full agree with the extension of the 151 to Foxborough giving other connection possibilities.

My understanding that this proposed change only came about last Thursday. I seriously suggest Dublin Bus bring it back to the people of Lucan for further consultation. In my opinion this is a retrograde step.

Mental Mickey

How does these changes affect Palmerstown?? I'm a wheelchair user, and i dont fancy having to push across that bloody footbridge to get to the other side of the road if I want to get the bus into town?

Tomtdowling

KC61 wrote: »

My point is that people need to express their opinions one way or the other.

By doing nothing they can't then come along to complain.

Dublin Bus stated at the outset that there would be a consultative process - surely that implies that the plans may actually change?

I did ask that at the information day at Superquinn was this the final plan? I was told more or less, but if there are any changes we will come back to you. I took from this that Dublin Bus would hold a similar information day.

The latest proposals to the 25B are not Network Direct but Network Duplication.
We in Lucan were hoping for change instead we having the same.

www.tomdowling.ie

greengraz

KC61 wrote: »

My point is that people need to express their opinions one way or the other.

By doing nothing they can't then come along to complain.

Dublin Bus stated at the outset that there would be a consultative process - surely that implies that the plans may actually change?

Agreed with expressing either view, I have no issue with that. My problem is the process undertaken in doing this has not been correct. The only logical to gather a valid and representative view would have been for Dublin Bus to survey people on the buses in the morning on the affected route.

I don't agree with your point that 'doing nothing and then come along to complain' - if people were satisfied with the changes, you're saying the onus was on them to make this known? Why did they 'do nothing?' Because they were satisfied with the original change!!

Out of curioisity, where along the route do you live and are you affected by it because I find it hard to beleive you're happy with a 20 minute extra each way commute - unless of course you're not affected?

Tomtdowling

KC61 wrote: »

The 25a/25b will now avoid Chapelizod all day - that is a saving of at least 10 minutes on every journey. Is that not a benefit?

The big benifit to people using the 25B was to have a service to do as Dublin Bus state on its website is have Network Direct, duplication of the 25A route adds additional journey time to the 25B service when its not required.

www.tomdowling.ie

greengraz

The Foxborough/Earlsfort loop will add up to 20 minutes journey each way at peak times and there is no 25X anymore. Missing out Chapelizod doesn't offset this, not even close.

As Tom says, the 25B is now effectively another 25A and makes the overall Lucan 25 bus service way more inefficient than it currently is or would be under the original proposal. This defeats the whole purpose of Network Direct and shows a lack of research on the part of Dublin Bus.

Tomtdowling wrote: »

The big benifit to people using the 25B was to have a service to do as Dublin Bus state on its website is have Network Direct, duplication of the 25A route adds additional journey time to the 25B service when its not required.

www.tomdowling.ie

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC61
The 25a/25b will now avoid Chapelizod all day - that is a saving of at least 10 minutes on every journey. Is that not a benefit?

Tomtdowling

greengraz wrote: »

Agreed with expressing either view, I have no issue with that. My problem is the process undertaken in doing this has not been correct. The only logical to gather a valid and representative view would have been for Dublin Bus to survey people on the buses in the morning on the affected route.

I don't agree with your point that 'doing nothing and then come along to complain' - if people were satisfied with the changes, you're saying the onus was on them to make this known? Why did they 'do nothing?' Because they were satisfied with the original change!!

Out of curiosity, where along the route do you live and are you affected by it because I find it hard to believe you're happy with a 20 minute extra each way commute - unless of course you're not affected?

I fully endorse Greengeaz's position.

KC61

Tomtdowling wrote: »

Dublin Bus held an information day at Superquinn in Lucan which was very informative. As an active member in the community on balance most of the commuters I have been in contact were happy with the proposed changes.

1.The Deloitte report made it very clear that there were duplication of many routes. The latest changes to the 25B route clearly duplicates the 25A route for all but the first section.
2. The Deloitte report also stated the need to for more direct routes....hence the name given to your given to your suggested changes 'Network Direct' to now claim that re routing the 25B is 'Network Direct' is a joke. This is the slowest part of the 25A journey. Why on earth would you subject a new route to follow the path of an existing route. It makes no sense.
3. If Dublin Bus are going to engage with the public at events like Superquinn, it should at least have the decency to come back to those same people and put on display any proposed changes. There are many I know who would not support the changes to the 25B in fact some would say they are daft. Simply putting it up on your website is not enough, the least you could do was have flyers on the Lucan buses to alert people. Do you think commuters go on Dublin Bus website every evening looking for updates?.
4. The new route for the 25B will add another 6 minutes on the journey time according to Dublin Bus. I would clearly dispute that but even if it were only 6 minutes, why on earth do Dublin Bus want to inflict this on commuters?
5. Even Bus drivers in the area suggest the new 25B plans is a bad idea.
6. I full agree with the extension of the 151 to Foxborough giving other connection possibilities.

My understanding that this proposed change only came about last Thursday. I seriously suggest Dublin Bus bring it back to the people of Lucan for further consultation. In my opinion this is a retrograde step.

I would agree with your last comments. That is the least that could happen.

My point is that there are going to be changes to the plans as they canvass opinion and I am merely encouraging everyone to put their view forward - that is the only way to be heard.

greengraz

KC61 wrote: »

I would agree with your last comments. That is the least that could happen.

My point is that there are going to be changes to the plans as they canvass opinion and I am merely encouraging everyone to put their view forward - that is the only way to be heard.

Why weren't the changes properly publicised to the commuters? Slipping it into the DB web page and giving people 2 weeks to respond is just not good enough. It was not the correct medium to make such a fundamental change that will affect so many people adversely.

Looking at the other thread referenced above, I ask you again, what is your involvement in this? Are you part of Dublin Bus/Netowrk Direct as your posts on the other thread read as if you are 'we're holding a road show' etc.? If so, I am disappointed with your earlier stance as it wasn't exactly open to an opposing view - and if you are representative of DB, well then we have a problem.

Please come clean on your position so we are clear. I have made mine clear as an adversely affected commuter.

KC61

greengraz wrote: »

Why weren't the changes properly publicised to the commuters? Slipping it into the DB web page and giving people 2 weeks to respond is just not good enough. It was not the correct medium to make such a fundamental change that will affect so many people adversely.

Looking at the other thread referenced above, I ask you again, what is your involvement in this? Are you part of Dublin Bus/Netowrk Direct as your posts on the other thread read as if you are 'we're holding a road show' etc.? If so, I am disappointed with your earlier stance as it wasn't exactly open to an opposing view - and if you are representative of DB, well then we have a problem.

Please come clean on your position so we are clear. I have made mine clear as an adversely affected commuter.

I have nothing to do with Dublin Bus - I posted the webpage updates from Dublin Bus website here and on other boards exactly so that more people would see them!!!

The "we" was on the actual page that I copied from their site.

I am a fare paying customer who happens to have a long interest in public transport (as I have stated in many threads here before).

My only agenda is seeing an improved bus service across the entire city as I am a long term advocate of the bus.

greengraz

KC61 wrote: »

I have nothing to do with Dublin Bus - I posted the webpage updates from Dublin Bus website here and on other boards exactly so that more people would see them!!!

The "we" was on the actual page that I copied from their site.

I am a fare paying customer who happens to have a long interest in public transport (as I have stated in many threads here before).

So where along the route are you?

If your agenda is seeing an improved bus service then this is at odds with the latest change which worsens the Lucan service...

KC61

Mental Mickey wrote: »

How does these changes affect Palmerstown?? I'm a wheelchair user, and i dont fancy having to push across that bloody footbridge to get to the other side of the road if I want to get the bus into town?

The 26 will start at Palmerstown Cemetery and operate via Ballyfermot and Kylemore Road to/from the city - it will not serve the section of Kennelsfort Road from the cemetery to the village.

The 25a/25b will operate via the Chapelizod bypass.

The 25, 66/a/b and 67/a will operate the same route as at present.

KC61

greengraz wrote: »

So where along the route are you?

If your agenda is seeing an improved bus service then this is at odds with the latest change which worsens the Lucan service...

Sigh - I am not arguing with you on whether it is better or not. In fact I did not express any opinion on that. I am just saying that it is a process from what I can see, and that plans will change based on feedback.

I am then encouraging everyone to get in touch with them and express your opinion.

greengraz

KC61 wrote: »

Sigh - I am not arguing with you on whether it is better or not.

I am just saying get in touch with them and express your opinion.

I have done as well as 7 or 8 local reps.

I ask again - if you're not in DB, where along the affected route do you live? I want to know what your interest in this is so your comments can be taken in the correct context.

KC61

greengraz wrote: »

I have done as well as 7 or 8 local reps.

I ask again - if you're not in DB, where along the affected route do you live? I want to know what your interest in this is so your comments can be taken in the correct context.

As I have said above I have a long term interest in public transport across the city. I am a daily user and advocate of public transport.

Any comments that I make here are in that capacity. You can go through all my posts on boards over the years and you'll see that I've posted on transport across Dublin.

From that perspective I often do put things onto boards so that people (such as yourself) who may not look at the transport company websites might see them, and to try and bring things to a wider audience.

My posts were not made in the context of arguing/debating with you as to whether they are an improvement or not, but rather pointing out that there is a process here.

brick tamland

Yep I agree with most on here, I think the new changes are awful. While I wasnt mad on the new proposals I could live with them but the change adds on more time to my morning commute and as mentioned above it just a duplication of service isnt it. The perfect solution in my book would be to keep the 4 ( or 5 cant remember ) 25x's in the morning that run via Griffeen - Superquinn - n4. There is nothing at all wrong with that service so i dont see why it needs to change.

I've sent a mail to Dublin bus saying so.

I email info@dublinbus.ie. This seems to be a general inbox, is there a better address for this?

KC61

brick tamland wrote: »

Yep I agree with most on here, I think the new changes are awful. While I wasnt mad on the new proposals I could live with them but the change adds on more time to my morning commute and as mentioned above it just a duplication of service isnt it. The perfect solution in my book would be to keep the 4 ( or 5 cant remember ) 25x's in the morning that run via Griffeen - Superquinn - n4. There is nothing at all wrong with that service so i dont see why it needs to change.

I've sent a mail to Dublin bus saying so.

I email info@dublinbus.ie. This seems to be a general inbox, is there a better address for this?

The website gives the follwoing address:
networkdirect@dublinbus.ie

average_runner

So now instead if decreasing our journey to work they have increase them.

25x along griffin avenue and out by superquinn is alot faster than this alternative route.

It will now be quicker to cycle/drive to city centre than get the bus, due to that route, as 25a/b makes loads of stops anyhow

Foxborough does not need two bus services going thru it.

AlekSmart

5. Even Bus drivers in the area suggest the new 25B plan is a bad idea.

TomDowling has made quite a pertinent point here and one which is of importance in a broader context.

The changes involved in the Network Direct programme are immense in their scope,both internally for staff and externally,for the passenger (I do not believe the term "customer" provides an accurate representation of a Public Transport user).

I personally believe the thrust of the ND plan to be positive and to have many benefits for both elements.

However,this being Ireland,there are now emerging from the depths,the sadly all-too-familiar elements which can quite easily derail the entire process,leaving it a tangled innefficient mess for all to struggle with.

I would suspect that this little wheeze probably results from perhaps even a single well-connected individual with a strongly held ambivallance to change.

As KC61 rightly points out,the only recourse those effected by the new-improved (revised) alterations have is to get in contact with the Organ Grinder rather than the numerous Monkeys dotted about the place.

However,I would be very careful as to how this is approached.

TomDowling`s posts are clear and accurate rebuttals of this revision and it is this approach which should win out in the end.

Be calm,and get specific about the elements which pose the greatest threat to the Network DIRECT principle.

Remember the Deloitte Report was commissioned by Minister Noel Dempsey and funded directly by the Public Purse.

The Minister`s reasoning was his "suspicion" that Dublin Bus & Bus Eireann were not providing the maximum return to "The Taxpayer" for their investment.

Whilst Deloitte failed to uncover any such situation within the CIE Road Passenger companies,it did make recommendations to maintain and improve the operational effectivity of the companies,and in Dublin Bus`s case that is what Network Direct is.

Therefore any unwarranted dilution of,tinkering with,or abandonment of the Network Direct recommendations is surely a matter of some seriousness ?

The decision to embark upon a Public Consultation phase so late in the process was always one fraught with danger and thus it is proving.

Unless this is nipped in the Bud immediately,the remainder of Network Direct`s phases will suffer a similar divisive and expensive fate.

What this approach guarantees,is a substantial lengthening of the timeframe for the overall ND implimentation and with that comes a substantial risk of alienating existing passengers and any potential new business which might have accrued from the original ND proposals.

It might also be interesting to seek the views of the National Transport Authority,which after all,now has a rather substantial role in the planning and provision of Public Transport Infrastructure,but....one wonders if any of that august body actually use the 25/a/b ......

Tomtdowling

AlekSmart wrote: »

TomDowling has made quite a pertinent point here and one which is of importance in a broader context.

The changes involved in the Network Direct programme are immense in their scope,both internally for staff and externally,for the passenger (I do not believe the term "customer" provides an accurate representation of a Public Transport user).

I personally believe the thrust of the ND plan to be positive and to have many benefits for both elements.

However,this being Ireland,there are now emerging from the depths,the sadly all-too-familiar elements which can quite easily derail the entire process,leaving it a tangled innefficient mess for all to struggle with.

I would suspect that this little wheeze probably results from perhaps even a single well-connected individual with a strongly held ambivallance to change.

As KC61 rightly points out,the only recourse those effected by the new-improved (revised) alterations have is to get in contact with the Organ Grinder rather than the numerous Monkeys dotted about the place.

However,I would be very careful as to how this is approached.

TomDowling`s posts are clear and accurate rebuttals of this revision and it is this approach which should win out in the end.

Be calm,and get specific about the elements which pose the greatest threat to the Network DIRECT principle.

Remember the Deloitte Report was commissioned by Minister Noel Dempsey and funded directly by the Public Purse.

The Minister`s reasoning was his "suspicion" that Dublin Bus & Bus Eireann were not providing the maximum return to "The Taxpayer" for their investment.

Whilst Deloitte failed to uncover any such situation within the CIE Road Passenger companies,it did make recommendations to maintain and improve the operational effectivity of the companies,and in Dublin Bus`s case that is what Network Direct is.

Therefore any unwarranted dilution of,tinkering with,or abandonment of the Network Direct recommendations is surely a matter of some seriousness ?

The decision to embark upon a Public Consultation phase so late in the process was always one fraught with danger and thus it is proving.

Unless this is nipped in the Bud immediately,the remainder of Network Direct`s phases will suffer a similar divisive and expensive fate.

What this approach guarantees,is a substantial lengthening of the timeframe for the overall ND implimentation and with that comes a substantial risk of alienating existing passengers and any potential new business which might have accrued from the original ND proposals.

It might also be interesting to seek the views of the National Transport Authority,which after all,now has a rather substantial role in the planning and provision of Public Transport Infrastructure,but....one wonders if any of that august body actually use the 25/a/b ......

Thanks for your kind words. This is the first real opportunity to reform Dublin Bus routes in its history. It would be nice if a serious effort was made to deliver change. Latest proposals suggests that some well intentioned finger is trying to undo what was a reasonable proposal for commuters in Lucan.

Keep the emails going to networkdirect@dublinbus.ie

average_runner

I have emailed dublin bus over this and I cant believe they done this. Just makes commute inwards 15 mins longer

average_runner

What i cant really understand is why the 25a, 25b and 151 goes to foxborough.

Why noy link 151 down the ballyowen rd and to the village and back round by superquinn or something

greengraz

KC61 wrote: »

My posts were not made in the context of arguing/debating with you as to whether they are an improvement or not, but rather pointing out that there is a process here.

Forget the 'process' (for now), which most affected users will agree is flawed.

The prime issue to resolve first is to reverse the wrong and silly route change which disadvantages the majority of 25B users under the original proposal - fact.

Do you agree with the latest proposed route change and if so, why?

Tomtdowling

average_runner wrote: »

What i cant really understand is why the 25a, 25b and 151 goes to foxborough.

Why noy link 151 down the ballyowen rd and to the village and back round by superquinn or something

Our main concern for now should be to reverse the idiotic duplicating route for the 25B, just go back to the original plan.

They are shooting themselves and more importantly commuters in the foot with this latest plan.

KC61

greengraz wrote: »

Forget the 'process' (for now), which most affected users will agree is flawed.

The prime issue to resolve first is to reverse the wrong and silly route change which disadvantages the majority of 25B users under the original proposal - fact.

Do you agree with the latest proposed route change and if so, why?

The reason that I made that point regarding the consultation process is that this is the first time that I can actually remember anyone other than the bus drivers, the unions or the bus company having any input into the network design. Routing and timetable changes have always been imposed with no consultation with the actual users of the bus service. To have the chance to offer input is something we the customers have never had, and I was just highlighting that.

Broadly speaking, most of the ideas from the network redesign have been good. With respect to the Lucan QBC, I think the fact that the 25a/25b will bypass Chapelizod all day every day is a huge improvement, as it can take up to 10 minutes to get through in the off-peak. This will deliver a big improvement to people travelling to/from Palmerstown, Liffey Valley, Fonthill and south Lucan.

The fact that there will no longer be situations where up to 3 Lucan Road QBC buses leaving Pearse Street simultaneously (e.g. 25a, 66 and 67) and then a 15/20 minute gap until the next bus of any number will be a massive improvement.

I can't really comment on the rush hour implications of re-routing the 25b around Foxborough as I am not familiar with the traffic conditions along that section of the route - hence I did not offer an opinion on it in any of my posts. Based on what everyone here is saying so far it would appear to be a strange decision if it is significantly increasing journey time over the existing commute.

I imagine (and this is pure guesswork on my part) that part of the reason for the change is that the combined 25a/25b off peak frequency has changed from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes. This change means that Foxborough would only have a bus every 30 minutes (rather than every 20 minutes as under the original proposal) if the original routings were retained. By changing the routing of the 25b, it means that most of South Lucan has a 15 minute off-peak frequency. Why the off-peak combined 25a/25b frequency was cut from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes I don't know. It does seem to remove the appropriateness of the "high frequency" moniker. If that were restored then I think that the original routings would be viable on an all day basis.

There is obviously a desire to keep the route variations to a minimum, and to have standard peak and off-peak routings. The key to attracting users to the bus is to keep it simple with standard routings and no oddball unusual variations. At the moment there are 8 different variations of the 25x which results in a timetable that is ludicrously complicated.

The 25a and 25b are an integrated route for the majority of the route, and it looks like they will be timetabled as such (from looking at the map diagram) - that means that in both the peak and off-peak that there ought to be a constant headway between each 25a and 25b between Ballyowen Road and the city.

But as I say the key to the whole process is that people do make their views felt and that if DB have got it wrong, that they get that message!

Tomtdowling

KC61 wrote: »

I imagine (and this is pure guesswork on my part) that part of the reason for the change is that the combined 25a/25b off peak frequency has changed from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes. This change means that Foxborough would only have a bus every 30 minutes (rather than every 20 minutes as under the original proposal) if the original routings were retained. By changing the routing of the 25b, it means that most of South Lucan has a 15 minute off-peak frequency. Why the off-peak combined 25a/25b frequency was cut from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes I don't know. It does seem to remove the appropriateness of the "high frequency" moniker. If that were restored then I think that the original routings would be viable on an all day basis.

There is obviously a desire to keep the route variations to a minimum, and to have standard peak and off-peak routings. The key to attracting users to the bus is to keep it simple with standard routings and no oddball unusual variations. At the moment there are 8 different variations of the 25x which results in a timetable that is ludicrously complicated.

The 25a and 25b are an integrated route for the majority of the route, and it looks like they will be timetabled as such (from looking at the map diagram) - that means that in both the peak and off-peak that there ought to be a constant headway between each 25a and 25b between Ballyowen Road and the city.

But as I say the key to the whole process is that people do make their views felt and that if DB have got it wrong, that they get that message!

Lets keep it very simple and please less of the spinning.

This is the first major changes to routes in the history Dublin Bus - God knows how long before it happens again, It should offer people of the greater Lucan area a better Dublin Bus service not more of the same. Dublin Bus offered us Network Direct, this latest proposal is more of the the same.

I was very please with Dublin the Bus information day at Superquinn in Lucan it very informative. As an active member in the community on balance most of the commuters I have been in contact with since were happy with the original changes proposed, now you propose to done a U-turn.

1.The Deloitte report made it very clear that there were duplication of many routes. This was Dublin Bus opportunity to address theses issues instead the latest changes to the 25B route clearly duplicates the 25A route for all but the first section.

2. The Deloitte report also stated the need to for more direct routes....hence the name given to your given to your suggested changes 'Network Direct' to now claim that re routing the 25B is 'Network Direct' is a joke. This is the slowest part of the 25A journey at present. Why on earth would you subject commuters on a new route to follow the path of an existing route. it makes no sense. This is a real opportunity with the addition of the new 25B route to get both there more quickly and direct with the splitting of the route.

3. The new route for the 25B will add another 6 minutes on the journey time according to Dublin Bus. I would clearly dispute that but even if it were only 6 minutes. The point been pushed upon us here, about greater frequency through Foxboough does not stack up. A speedier 25B service is to be sacrificed for this purpose, subjecting commuters from other estates to go where they don't go there in the first place.

4. Dublin Bus please stick to the brief you were given provided quicker more direct routes for commuters, and less saying you commuters are been given options when it's quite clear a particular point of view is been thrust on us.

I seriously suggest Dublin Bus go back to the original plan which actually made sense Don't mess up this opportunity the consequence's could be with Lucan for the next 30 years..

KC61

Tomtdowling wrote: »

Lets keep it very simple and please less of the spinning.

This is the first major changes to routes in the history Dublin Bus - God knows how long before it happens again, It should offer people of the greater Lucan area a better Dublin Bus service not more of the same. Dublin Bus offered us Network Direct, this latest proposal is more of the the same.

I was very please with Dublin the Bus information day at Superquinn in Lucan it very informative. As an active member in the community on balance most of the commuters I have been in contact with since were happy with the original changes proposed, now you propose to done a U-turn.

1.The Deloitte report made it very clear that there were duplication of many routes. This was Dublin Bus opportunity to address theses issues instead the latest changes to the 25B route clearly duplicates the 25A route for all but the first section.

2. The Deloitte report also stated the need to for more direct routes....hence the name given to your given to your suggested changes 'Network Direct' to now claim that re routing the 25B is 'Network Direct' is a joke. This is the slowest part of the 25A journey at present. Why on earth would you subject commuters on a new route to follow the path of an existing route. it makes no sense. This is a real opportunity with the addition of the new 25B route to get both there more quickly and direct with the splitting of the route.

3. The new route for the 25B will add another 6 minutes on the journey time according to Dublin Bus. I would clearly dispute that but even if it were only 6 minutes. The point been pushed upon us here, about greater frequency through Foxboough does not stack up. A speedier 25B service is to be sacrificed for this purpose, subjecting commuters from other estates to go where they don't go there in the first place.

4. Dublin Bus please stick to the brief you were given provided quicker more direct routes for commuters, and less saying you commuters are been given options when it's quite clear a particular point of view is been thrust on us.

I seriously suggest Dublin Bus go back to the original plan which actually made sense Don't mess up this opportunity the consequence's could be with Lucan for the next 30 years..

Just let me reiterate this - I did not propose anything. I have nothing to do with Dublin Bus - I am a customer of theirs too.

Someone asked what I thought about it and I am providing my opinion as a long term observer of public transport in Ireland. That is what my post above is doing.

I am only giving my opinion, which I am as entitled to do as you are.

KC61

Just to make a couple of further points:

From where I sit there are several winners and losers here.

Your posts are focussing on certain areas and services (I am assuming the 25x services at peak hour that operate via the Newcastle Road) and you may well have a valid point with regard to those areas. I am not disputing that.

I was trying to highlight in that post above that the proposed off-peak frequency is reduced from every 20 minutes for both 25a and 25b to every 30 minutes on each. That to me is a retrograde step. As a result off-peak much of Lucan south (Griffeen Road, Esker Manor and Superquinn) is losing out with a serious reduction in service to every 30 minutes.

Anyone however, using the bus on the Lucan QBC between Palmerstown and the Ballyowen Road is gaining with the all day service, every 5 minutes at peak and every 15 minutes off-peak along the bypass, together with a more co-ordinated service through Chapelizod than at present. For anyone using the service along that section it is immensely frustrating to see a 25a, 66, 66a and 67a all go at the same time and then have nothing for 15/20 minutes.

KD345

It's interesting reading the different views on this thread. I'm a bit surprised that the original plan for the 25B has been changed as it did seem to be more direct, but I can only guess, similar to the changes made to route 84 in Stillorgan, that the change was made because of passenger and community input. Tom, do you know if this is the case? Did locals request route 25B to be rerouted?

I feel Dublin Bus are in a difficult position. Here they are dramatically changing the bus service in Dublin. They want to fix a lot of the problems which currently exist on the route network. Following on from the Deloitte report, they are implementing changes and have been forthcoming with their plans months in advance. The only other time I can remember this being done on such a scale was for the launch of the new route 39 back in 1993.

Dublin Bus have invited locals to consultation days in shopping centres and there now seems to be a few changes made as a result of these meetings. Ironically, if Dublin Bus didn't have these community meetings they would be accused of forcing changes on commuters without any consultation. For example, on the other thread on the Dublin Bus Network Review, some posters made the comment that going to these meetings would be a waste of time as they felt Dublin Bus would not listen. This clearly is not the case and the company is listening.

There are changes being made to almost every bus route in Dublin. That's quite a task. The majority of those changes will be beneficial and an improvement, but sometimes mistakes will be made. I'm sure if locals are not happy with the 25B Dublin Bus will again be open to change.

thomasj

meh, a number of things stick out for me one route/area gets access to a rail station and the other doesn't (at the moment.... Kishogue not yet open)

One route/area (25a/foxborough) gets access to two different qbcs (clondalkin 151, lucan 25a), luas, o2, and the area the clondalkin route and the other doesnt

It seems to me these gaps were exposed possibly and the haphazzardly attempt to seal over the cracks have backfired. Bear in mind also the impact the removal of the 239 at a later stage will have on the lucan area (village connection)

It seems to me that alongwith the gap between ladyswell and the blanchardstown centre, and the 220 route removal impact here is another area where the cracks of network direct are starting to appear.

average_runner

In fairness from ballyowen onwards would of had the peak bus service every 5 mins on the orginal plan they proposed.

Putting 25b thru foxborugh so they have it eveyr 5 mins at peak is really bad because:

- The route times now increase.
- the road thru foxborough will struggle with a bus service every 5 mins
- alot of the houses in foxborugh are open to the main road there, hence there is a lot of kids playing around, this is a major safety issue and I dont think Dublin bus even thought about this part.
- At the consolation process everyone was happy with the new chnages so why change it?
- If they dont reverse it I just get another mode of transport to town.

Also if Dublin bus doesnt reverse this decision I hope the council charge them the cost of removing the bus lane and bus shetlers on the top half of the ballyowen road, as they never be use now.

KC61

thomasj wrote: »

meh, a number of things stick out for me one route/area gets access to a rail station and the other doesn't (at the moment.... Kishogue not yet open)

One route/area (25a/foxborough) gets access to two different qbcs (clondalkin 151, lucan 25a), luas, o2, and the area the clondalkin route and the other doesnt

It seems to me these gaps were exposed possibly and the haphazzardly attempt to seal over the cracks have backfired. Bear in mind also the impact the removal of the 239 at a later stage will have on the lucan area (village connection)

It seems to me that alongwith the gap between ladyswell and the blanchardstown centre, and the 220 route removal impact here is another area where the cracks of network direct are starting to appear.

There is talk of another orbital service linking Liffey Valley with Tallaght via Lucan and the outer ring road which may replace the 239 link with Lucan village in a later phase.

As for the 151 - is it not better to at least have the ability to connect with it rather than terminate it at Kishogue? That to me is a no brainer.

As for Ladyswell we have not seen what changes came from the consultation process as yet. I still think (as I suggested before) that the 270 could be rerouted without any major difficulty to serve that area en route to/from Tyrellstown.

KD345

average_runner wrote: »

.
- At the consolation process everyone was happy with the new chnages so why change it?

How do you know this? I thought the changes were made after the community meetings, which would suggest it was these meetings which brought about the re-routing of the 25B.

brick tamland

Anyone get a reply to they're email?

average_runner

Because I havent heard of one person saying it was a bad thing and in fairness why would people want to have another duplicate bus route especially where kids play on the road.

Also after talking to some councillors last night that I wont name, they said no one in any of the meetings ask for 25b to be re-route

To me it looks like a PR stun by Dublin bus at the start and now its a cost measuring.

You wont hear back from Dublin Bus, you never do when it is to do with a complaint.

Cookie_Monster

average_runner wrote: »

You wont hear back from Dublin Bus, you never do when it is to do with a complaint.

untrue, I've heard back a few times. Nothing ever done about the issue though

KD345

average_runner wrote: »

Because I havent heard of one person saying it was a bad thing and in fairness why would people want to have another duplicate bus route especially where kids play on the road.

Also after talking to some councillors last night that I wont name, they said no one in any of the meetings ask for 25b to be re-route

To me it looks like a PR stun by Dublin bus at the start and now its a cost measuring.

You wont hear back from Dublin Bus, you never do when it is to do with a complaint.

With respect, just because you haven't heard of one person saying it was a bad decision doesn't mean people didn't ask for it to be changed. They were in Lucan for 6 hours and people were also free to contact them through the website. You could be absolutely right and maybe nobody has asked for the 25B to be rerouted, but until we know for certain it's a bit unfair to be accusing Dublin Bus of pulling stunts.

As it happens, I have complained to Dublin Bus several times over the years. They have always replied and handled the various issues very well.

KC61

As Alek stated above, the best course of action is to send the comments in and wait to see what their repsonse is.

Given the vast nature of this project they may wait until after June 18th before deciding anything, giving everyone a chance to respond.

I can personally fully understand the frustration that "going around the houses" rather than via a bus lane on the Ballyowen Road would cause.