Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/

Do we moan too much about bailing out the banks?

  • 05-06-2010 11:40AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭


    Ok,
    So here's a thought. The state pays about 80 billion to bail out the banks.
    Say the state never recoups any of this and it is only people alive who now pay it. That's about 20,000 per capita.

    I'd argue in the grand scheme of things that that's not's too much.

    1. Anyone who bought property before 2000 has made way more than 20,000 on that property for doing nothing other than buying a property "at the right time".
    2. Anyone who bought "at the wrong time" has arguably lost way more than 20,000.
    3. Whether you bought at the wrong time or the right time, you'll be paying way more than 20,000 in interest.
    4. If you didn't buy or never want to buy you'll be paying a lot more than 20,000 in rent.

    So relatively speaking I don't think it's that much.

    Another thing that really annoys me is that for all this mess as a society we haven't really changed. For example, Fingal CC have a development plan for 2011 to 2017. They are taking public submissions now and as usual the public are apathetic. There have very few submissions. And some of them are rants from people who haven't even bother reading the plan.

    This means we'll keep making the same mistakes. The public should be demanding the highest standards so that when the council have to vote on things, the councillors will know they are being watched this time.

    Instead all we are doing is coming up with pretty poor macro economic analysis and somehow deluding ourselves that some magic wand will fix everything.

    Discuss...


«1345

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    The state pays about 80 billion to bail out the banks.

    3. Whether you bought at the wrong time or the right time, you'll be paying way more than 20,000 in interest.

    I find it curious that you were detailed enough to include interest in the personal loan, but none on the 80 billion.....

    Borrowing that 80 billion will cost, and it will also increase the interest on every other type of borrowing.

    So while 80 billion divided by 4 million people (which includes kids, OAPs and unemployed) is indeed 20,000......it's not the full story.

    And that's ignoring the fact that kinds and a lot of OAPs no longer "contribute", thereby passing that cost onto others.

    Ireland's average workforce is about 2 million, rolling at either end as people graduate and retire.

    So that would make 40,000 each.

    In addition, people are already paying those different 20,000 amounts to greedy & corrupt banks and developers and other people who ensured that the prices were too high.....so you could easily argue that they're paying 10,000 too much because of the ridiculously inflated prices.

    So the total cost per person of the boom and resulting bailout could equally "logically" be viewed at 50,000 plus interest.

    And given that Greece is currently borrowing @ approximately 10% (Source : http://blog.taragana.com/business/2010/04/26/greece-sees-market-borrowing-costs-jump-despite-assurances-that-rescue-loans-will-come-soon-54156/) even if we were half of that (and therefore - say - double a "standard" interest rate) it will add significantly to the overall bill to the tune of 2 billion per annum, or another 1,000 a year - each! :mad:

    So, over an average 35-year working cycle, every individual in this country could have paid a grand total of €85,000 for this madness! :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,639 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    he may not be taking into account the above, but he was also ignoring the fact that we'll get most of it back, if not all + more with the various discounts and interest returns.

    I didn't buy but have rented. But the 20k you imagine I have put into rent I have gotten a return on, ie a place to live. I could never afford another 20k on top of that to pay the state, and I could no longer afford to rent... leaves me needed a further bailout :D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,062 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    Yes we do

    At the moment people are bitching because banks won't give out loans/mortgages
    Imagine back in the day of the celtic tiger the banks took the same approach, people would be blasting the banks.

    The banks gave us what we wanted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Yes we do because that's what the Irish do. Listen to Liveline on any give day and you don't hear problems being discussed, you hear people whining over often absurd things.

    Anyway, it's not the bank bailout that people should be really worried about, it's the fact that we're spending 5 euro for every 3 we bring in. If we weren't in such a frightening deficit, then NAMA wouldn't be so bad as we could pay it back over the next few years and possibly get some of the 80 billion back. The thing is, when cuts are made, people just think that it's the state putting bankers before people which would naturally grind gears when in actually fact, cuts are made because we don't have any money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Anyone who bought property before 2000 has made way more than 20,000 on that property for doing nothing other than buying a property "at the right time".

    Anyone who bought property before 2000 and sold in 2007 has made way more than 20,000 on that property for doing nothing other than buying a property "at the right time".

    Fixed that for you.

    Most people who bought property before 2000 did not profit in any way from the "boom" as they still live in their house. OK they had a few wage increases, but these are now long gone and they have to pay off the banks for those who showed bad judgement in the "boom".


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    he may not be taking into account the above, but he was also ignoring the fact that we'll get most of it back, if not all + more with the various discounts and interest returns.

    I didn't buy but have rented. But the 20k you imagine I have put into rent I have gotten a return on, ie a place to live. I could never afford another 20k on top of that to pay the state, and I could no longer afford to rent... leaves me needed a further bailout :D:D
    In our case, we are down 100K on what we paid for. We are also down one fulltime job.

    However, we both got:
    - 3 / 4s of our education for free. In other countries you wouldn't get this.
    - Got jobs out of college and lived in an economy for 5+ years with low tax - i.e here. If you graduate now you probably have to emigrate.
    - A nice tracker mortgage.

    I am sick of listening to moaners who probably bought in 1991, 1981 or 1971 and despite the worst economic recession ever have still made a fortune on their property. I am also sick of these moaners because none of them ever do anything about it. Why don't they go and write a decent submission for the next draft development plan for their area. Or join a political party. Do something.

    Yes, we may be handing a debt onto the next generation but show me one generation that didn't do that. We are also handing them much bigger problems. Climate change for example.

    We are a nations of moaners. Not doers. Simple as.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 693 ✭✭✭douglashyde


    And don't forget that alot of our highly educated young work force will not be paying tax in Ireland - because they wont live here.

    Is it me - or is Ireland becoming a more and more depressing place to live in everyday!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    However, we both got:
    - 3 / 4s of our education for free. In other countries you wouldn't get this.
    - Got jobs out of college and lived in an economy for 5+ years with low tax - i.e here. If you graduate now you probably have to emigrate.
    - A nice tracker mortgage.


    These are actually very good points but it reminds me of the saying "a loaf of bread is soon forgotten".

    The reason I bolded that one line is because it's an over statements. Some graduates will have to emigrate to find work in what they graduated in, like construction, but if you're did computing or something similar you'll likely find a job. I did at least.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    he may not be taking into account the above, but he was also ignoring the fact that we'll get most of it back, if not all + more with the various discounts and interest returns.

    We might get something back, but how much and at what stage is pure guesswork. To get "most of it back", we'd have to pretty much have another boom.

    NAMA is "banking" on this, of course, because otherwise we would have had "fire-sale" by the banks : the laws of supply and demand would have applied.

    As for interest returns, or even capital returns......well, if a development company goes bankrupt, then that won't apply.

    Like I said, proper,responsible evaluation involves looking at the worst-case scenario and seeing if that can be stomached.

    I'll admit mine is the "worst case" scenario, but it's based on the facts, and it's both scary and sickening ! And it's a lot worse than 20,000 each!

    The truth will lie somewhere in-between, but anyone who claims that it's 20,000 is pretty much - while maybe not actually there, in a plane to - cloud cuckoo land; even if you look solely at the "working population" it's immediately doubled (and then some, if FF don't get their act together and start stimulating jobs and making businesses viable again).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,742 ✭✭✭dirtyden


    No we do not do enough compalining. We are as of yet not holding anyone accountable for making the lives of every citizen in this country more difficult.

    Why are we bailing out the banks? Where is the benefit to us? Why bail out Anglo?


    For all of the money we have given the banks what if any changes have been made?

    Until the bankers who defrauded the state are held accountable and changes are made to the banking system I will whinge, not mere window dressing.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    dirtyden wrote: »
    No we do not do enough compalining. We are as of yet not holding anyone accountable for making the lives of every citizen in this country more difficult.

    Why are we bailing out the banks? Where is the benefit to us? Why bail out Anglo?


    For all of the money we have given the banks what if any changes have been made?

    Until the bankers who defrauded the state are held accountable and changes are made to the banking system I will whinge, not mere window dressing.
    Ok - I hear you moaning but what are you going to do about it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Anyone who bought property before 2000 and sold in 2007 has made way more than 20,000 on that property for doing nothing other than buying a property "at the right time".

    Fixed that for you.

    Most people who bought property before 2000 did not profit in any way from the "boom" as they still live in their house. OK they had a few wage increases, but these are now long gone and they have to pay off the banks for those who showed bad judgement in the "boom".
    No you have made money even if you haven't sold. You have an asset that has gone way up in value.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,742 ✭✭✭dirtyden


    Ok - I hear you moaning but what are you going to do about it?

    Ill exercise my civic duty at the polling both if I get a chance soon.

    Do you think it was a reasonable course of action to out as much as 18 billion into anglo with no chance of return.

    I am only asking the question as to why we are doing this. It is understandable to help BOI and maybe AIB to an extent as there is chance of some return, and it is possibly necessary for the state but the dead banks should have been let die.

    Can you explain why we are shovelling money into Anglo, Irish Pernament etc.? Noone as yet had explained this logically to me anywhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    Ok - I hear you moaning but what are you going to do about it?


    First Im going to qualify as an astronaut, then I will become taoiseach and change all the economic policies, then Im going to become an opthalmologist and a train driver.
    Why do we the people have to DO somthing? I was under the foolish impression we had regulators and elected representatives for that sort of thing. I love this - "all ye do is moan":confused::confused: What else are we meant to do?? Storm the bastille??? Set up a guillotine?? Im too tired and I cant find my "storming the bastille"gloves. So, Im going to moan. It makes me feel better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    dunsandin wrote: »
    Why do we the people have to DO somthing? I was under the foolish impression we had regulators and elected representatives for that sort of thing.
    So we absolve ourselves of all responsibility because we have elected representatives? Even though we're the ones responsible for electing said representatives? Responsibility begins and ends in the polling booth?
    dunsandin wrote: »
    I love this - "all ye do is moan":confused::confused: What else are we meant to do??
    Propose an alternative course of action? It's all very well complaining about the fact that vast sums of money are being pumped into banks and the state is being saddled with debt through NAMA (I don't like it either), but has anyone suggested a realistic alternative?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So we absolve ourselves of all responsibility because we have elected representatives? Even though we're the ones responsible for electing said representatives? Responsibility begins and ends in the polling booth?
    Propose an alternative course of action? It's all very well complaining about the fact that vast sums of money are being pumped into banks and the state is being saddled with debt through NAMA (I don't like it either), but has anyone suggested a realistic alternative?


    I have till i'm blue in the face. Banking is a business. Business make profits and losses. Note that bit-LOSSES. Life is hard, tough. Guarantee deposits up to say 50k, the joe soaps. Use a few of the billions we have to throw down holes to start up an enterprise fund, businesses apply to it for W.Cap, etc. Private enterprises such as PRIVATE banks, deal with their Debt issues privatly. Now, is everything fixed? No? Well thats why we elect governments, sadly, we didnt elect this taoiseach, and I for one, don't agree with him. What a silly question to ask-what do you want to do Dunsandin? Who cares what I want to do? Im a nobody like most others on here, my voice counts for precisly nothing. If I want to whinge and say I dont agree with Nama, thats my right, I dont need an alternative, nobody ever voted for me, and I run no banks, Why the hell should I come up with a solution? I get it hard enough to run my own life, never mind everyone elses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭johnmcdnl


    I'm 18 years old... I've only ever worked a few summer jobs and I'm happy with the 200 euro a week I'd get for my weeks work... i doubt I'm gonna be able to get any job anywhere this summer now either so that's just gonna be great isn't it for me... wonder how I'm gonna be able to earn some money to have just a few euro's spending money for myself... not looking for anything excessive.. just a few euro so I can go out at the weekend and enjoy myself now and then...

    I'm going to college next September but I really can't see what job I'm gonna get when I'm leaving college.. Neither of my parents invested in this property boom even though they had enough money that they could have if they wanted to but they didn't because they seen themselves that there was gonna come a big collapse some day...

    now you tell me that my mother, my father, my sister, myself, my grandmother should all pay 20,000 to bail out the few bankers and builders that never once stopped to think about "what happens if this goes badly" 100,000 for my household to bail you's out... that 100,000 for just my household... what could that do for my house if you gave it to us.... but no... you say "DO WE MOAN TOO MUCH"

    we've done absolutely nothing that caused this mess... why should I be asked to pay...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 284 ✭✭LavaLamp


    The thing that annoys me most is that there seems to be endless money to throw at the banks to bail them out for the "mistakes" they made.

    Yes, people were willing to accept money offered to them during the tiger by banks, why? because they foolishly belived that banks were responsible, regulated financial institutions that were partaking in sensible lending, not humping fractional reserve to within an inch of it's life. Have we not been taught all our lives that we can trust banks, that if you need financial advice that you can go to your bank, that they are able to make informed financial decisions?!?

    The banks screwed up big time, yet they have not been punished for their mistakes. People who trusted the banks are now left carrying the can, is there a bail out package for those people who have as a consequence of the global recession lost their jobs and now cannot afford to pay their mortgage? No chance! Are the banks that have been bailed out by these very people, and those that are lucky enough to still have a job hounding those who are now falling behind on their mortgage payments? Of course they are!

    This money doesn't really exist - people are having their lives ruined over numbers that appear on a computer screen. We are going to have to pay taxes as are our children, our children's chidren and even their children in order to pay back the money for these bail outs, when in reality it never existed.

    OK, rant over!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    But John, simple soul, do you not realise that we are all collectively responsible for the banking crisis? By your very existance and drawing of breath, you are one of the culpable ones. Do you have a better idea for a solution? No, then shut up and pay up. Sure if we didn't bail out anglo, we were all going to die by dragon fire and have to eat grass for 75 years. What can be done? It is as it is and we have to make the best of it. You contributed to the debacle by not witholding your support for the system by killing yourself at the age of 5. Sure didn't you help create the problem by overpaying for food and your braces? Nama is great and will create a surplus for the exchequer of at least 259.98456%. Here is a colourful pie chart with 9million statistics to show how wrong you are. David Mcwilliams is a boll1x.

    Prepare for a variation of the above sh1te being flung at you.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 284 ✭✭LavaLamp


    dunsandin wrote: »
    Who cares what I want to do? Im a nobody like most others on here, my voice counts for precisly nothing.

    Oh, and while I'm at it, if all you "nobody's" actually bothered to get together and do something about anything, you'd find you are actually a very big somebody that would be listened to!


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 Ahem!


    Yeah - finally someone has the guts to say it!!!!!!!!

    Personally I'm sick of all those special needs kids, carers with terminally ill loved ones, blind people, pensioners on trollies, unemployed lay-abouts and young emigrating traitors moaning and groaning about having to deal with the consequences of the the banks greed and stupidity.

    Greed is good remember!!! It needs to be encouraged. Free-market and all that!!! And everyone knows you can't have a free-market and expect people to take risks if there's the slightest possibility they might end up losing any of their enormous wealth.

    I've got my 40 grand here. Well actually it was my children's college fund and my late mother's life-savings but hey?!?! Do you have an address we can send it to? I just can't wait to do my patriotic duty.............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    Yeah Lava, probably involving battens, tear gas and a quick ride in a mondeo. I'd have a new title though, I'd be one of the "Radical formentors" or "Lawless radicals", or I'd be an "economic terrorist", be branded an anarchist and sidelined, or else just be ignored. Like I said, I cant find my radical gloves, and I'd just be outmanoevered anyway. I'll just gather up my 20 grand so. How hard can it be, sure its a pittance. (In S.Dublin) Just to fill you in on reality, I was in Dublin not so long ago, and a large group of protesters were protesting about Israels treatment of the palestinians. The security staff in Jervis st(where it was happening) started to get very rough with these (peaceful) protesters. I tried to stop them arm-locking one of them, and was told what was what. Within minutes, the worlds supply of Gardai arrived and the protest came to an abrupt end. I have never seen so many cops in my life, arrive so quickly. Go try unrest, the best of luck with that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    dunsandin wrote: »
    First Im going to qualify as an astronaut, then I will become taoiseach and change all the economic policies, then Im going to become an opthalmologist and a train driver.
    Why do we the people have to DO somthing? I was under the foolish impression we had regulators and elected representatives for that sort of thing. I love this - "all ye do is moan":confused::confused: What else are we meant to do?? Storm the bastille??? Set up a guillotine?? Im too tired and I cant find my "storming the bastille"gloves. So, Im going to moan. It makes me feel better.

    We live in a democracy. Anyone can run for public office, join a political party or join one of the thousands of activists groups that focus on specific issues. That's how things change.

    Unfortunately the majority of the planet, still doesn't have the luxury we have. But, yet rather than get up of his *ss the Irish man will prefer to sit on his *ss and just moan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    johnmcdnl wrote: »
    I'm 18 years old... I've only ever worked a few summer jobs and I'm happy with the 200 euro a week I'd get for my weeks work... i doubt I'm gonna be able to get any job anywhere this summer now either so that's just gonna be great isn't it for me... wonder how I'm gonna be able to earn some money to have just a few euro's spending money for myself... not looking for anything excessive.. just a few euro so I can go out at the weekend and enjoy myself now and then...

    I'm going to college next September but I really can't see what job I'm gonna get when I'm leaving college.. Neither of my parents invested in this property boom even though they had enough money that they could have if they wanted to but they didn't because they seen themselves that there was gonna come a big collapse some day...

    now you tell me that my mother, my father, my sister, myself, my grandmother should all pay 20,000 to bail out the few bankers and builders that never once stopped to think about "what happens if this goes badly" 100,000 for my household to bail you's out... that 100,000 for just my household... what could that do for my house if you gave it to us.... but no... you say "DO WE MOAN TOO MUCH"

    we've done absolutely nothing that caused this mess... why should I be asked to pay...
    Why don't you do something constructive?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    dunsandin wrote: »
    Go try unrest, the best of luck with that.
    I am not suggesting all the moaners should take to the streets, I am saying they should just do something constructive instead of their moaning. That could involve joining a political party, be more active in your community or else join an activist group for example - there are plenty of good ones to just from.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    Unfortunately the majority of the planet, still doesn't have the luxury we have. But, yet rather than get up of his *ss the Irish man will prefer to sit on his *ss and just moan.

    Heres the rub Tim. 1. I'm rich. 2.No mortgage 3.Dont give a damn what the banks do. 4.Still think it a crime what's happening 5.I work my *ss off day in and day out, including today, tomorrow and bank holiday monday.
    6.Not everybody has 20k to spare, or 2k, or 2 hundred. 6.Lots have negative equity, overdrafts, childcare or the dole. 7.Nobodys gonna bail me or them out if hard times or if we mess up 8.Care to suggest your course of action. If its good, we'll all follow you, honest.Well, maybe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭johnmcdnl


    Why don't you do something constructive?

    as in spend the last 6 years in secondary school studying so when I finish up I can get a good college course and maybe get a job for myself near enough to home...

    wait can't see that happening now can I - now I'm going to college hoping that when I finish there'll be a job somewhere in the country because if there's not I'm gonna have to up ship and leave the country and leave all behind me here...



    and can you tell me - wtf do you mean do something constructive.. I'm just like pretty much every other under 25 year old in this country... been made consider out futures because of the actions of the select few bankers who roll round in there big mercs and million dollar suits and live in their mansions...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 284 ✭✭LavaLamp


    Dunsandin, protesting isn't our only option, it's what the "powers that be" have prepared for and expect us to do.

    They are prepared for violent protest. However if EVERYONE refused to go to work for one day, and refused to consume for one day they would soon start paying attention.

    Well done though for going to the protest, more people need to stand up for what they believe in, Israel are nothing but bullies, but that is for another thread!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    Lava, I wasn't at the protest, I was having a burger with my kids. I admired the protesters guts, and went over for a look. I couldn't believe how badly they were treated and stepped in to help them, and by default, became one of them. Ended up on Youtube. I think protesting is the last right of the people and would stand full square behind anybodys right to protest, wether I agree with them or not. I was AMAZED at the Garda responce- they were literally everywhere within minutes, in seriouse force - the kids and me slipped out a side door seconds before they were sealed. A real eye-opener at what the state can do when it wants to. Hard to feck with. Really shows what the powers to be think of "their" people


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭dunsandin


    No you have made money even if you haven't sold. You have an asset that has gone way up in value.

    No offence Tim, but this shows your economic naivety. A persons home is not an asset, it is a liability, if you don't see how, you can read up on it. If you have no real grasp of what is an asset and what is a liability, how can you tell me what should be done with the wider economy.


Advertisement