Moving Alarm Panel

GreeBo

Hey guys,

Im getting a new cylinder and need to move the panel in the hot press.
What sort of price should I be expecting to pay for this? The wires are not long enough to simply move the box itself, so there will be electrical/alarm work required. (otherwise Id do it myself)

Cheers!

KoolKid

It really depends on the time involved. Where are you planning to move it to?

GreeBo

koolkid wrote: »

It really depends on the time involved. Where are you planning to move it to?

Sorry I should have given more info, it just needs to move about 2 feet up the wall.
Its at about 4foot now and I need it at 6 to allow for the larger cylinder.

Cheers!

KoolKid

Easy enough. Possibly 2 hours if cables need joining . I'd say around €150 .

GreeBo

Hmm more than I expected to be honest, you reckon I'd need an alarm company or any sparks?
Arent alarms "regulated" now?

indie armada

is it not against the regs to have it in the hot press? or is it ok to leave it there because it was installed prior to the regs comming into force.

KoolKid

Only for new systems. Retrofits or upgrades can be signed off by the customer. If the system has not been serviced in over a year its not going to be up to the standard anyway.
@Greebo All alarm company's must be licenced by the PSA . You are legally obliged to employ a PSA licenced company. How much were you expecting for a couple of hours work?

GreeBo

koolkid wrote: »

Only for new systems. Retrofits or upgrades can be signed off by the customer. If the system has not been serviced in over a year its not going to be up to the standard anyway.
@Greebo All alarm company's must be licenced by the PSA . You are legally obliged to employ a PSA licenced company. How much were you expecting for a couple of hours work?

The alarm is about 3 years old. I didnt think it would take more than an hour to be honest, there are only 4 cables that need to be lengthened, everything else comes from above anyway so has plenty of slack.

I will give the original installers a ring and see what they say!

Out of interest, is the attic a suitable new location?

KoolKid

GreeBo wrote: »

The alarm is about 3 years old. I didnt think it would take more than an hour to be honest, there are only 4 cables that need to be lengthened, everything else comes from above anyway so has plenty of slack.

I will give the original installers a ring and see what they say!

Out of interest, is the attic a suitable new location?

i would allow 2 hours for this. Remember everything has to be disconnected & marked, joins done as required, panel remounted , rewired & tested. If I were pricing I would agree 2 hours & discount if less.

altor

GreeBo wrote: »

it just needs to move about 2 feet up the wall.
Its at about 4foot now and I need it at 6 to allow for the larger cylinder.

Cheers!

If it is only being moved 2 foot it would take less than an hour to do, but you should be looking at moving it out of the hot press.

altor

indie armada wrote: »

is it not against the regs to have it in the hot press? or is it ok to leave it there because it was installed prior to the regs comming into force.

It is against the regulations to have it in the hot press but if installed before this it is ok.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

Only for new systems. Retrofits or upgrades can be signed off by the customer.

To my knowledge if it is to be upgraded it has to be moved out of the hot press as it is against the ETCI regulations to have it in the hot press ?

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

To my knowledge if it is to be upgraded it has to be moved out of the hot press as it is against the ETCI regulations to have it in the hot press ?

Had one on my last inspections. It was signed off as requested by the customer, as they did not want additions wiring/works etc.
It was accepted & passed with no non-conformance.

2011

To my knowledge if it is to be upgraded it has to be moved out of the hot press as it is against the ETCI regulations to have it in the hot press ?

Correct. If the alarm panel is moved out of the hotpress then it should be supplied from a spur outlet that is local to it and not the one that is in the hotpress.

indie armada

also if fitted in the attic it is technically outside of the protected zone so a dual tech fitted in the attic is an option but a better option would be to move it out onto ne of the bedroom walls or onto the landing. alternitivly if there is a closet below the hotpress the extend the cables down and fit the panel there

Jnealon

Have done this type of job a few times, quickest was an hour but usually takes two. Again no need to move out of hot-press.
Greebo, it's totally up to you who does the work but your average sparks would be out of his depth here

Tim M-U

Jnealon wrote: »

Have done this type of job a few times, quickest was an hour but usually takes two. Again no need to move out of hot-press.
Greebo, it's totally up to you who does the work but your average sparks would be out of his depth here

Hi jnealon,

If you have previously installed an alarm yourself (diy jobby) would it be possible for an licensed installer to do a job?, e.g. outdoor sabb even though it is not originally certified since it was a diy.
Can it be signed off or something? what are the steps to this?

altor

koolkid wrote: »

Had one on my last inspections. It was signed off as requested by the customer, as they did not want additions wiring/works etc.
It was accepted & passed with no non-conformance.

I dont know how it passed as the standards clearly say the alarm must comply with EN50131 to be certified. Upgrading the alarm and leaving it in the hot press is against the ETCI regulations which installers have to comply to.

KoolKid

Who am I to say the NSAI might be wrong? :rolleyes:

Jnealon

Tim M-U wrote: »

Hi jnealon,

If you have previously installed an alarm yourself (diy jobby) would it be possible for an licensed installer to do a job?, e.g. outdoor sabb even though it is not originally certified since it was a diy.
Can it be signed off or something? what are the steps to this?

Yes a licensed company could take over your system and bring it up to standard

GreeBo

Just rang the orignal installers and he quoted €80 call out charge including the first hour or work, so looks like €150 was pretty close to the mark.

No mention of having to move the panel from the HP either.

Thx.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

Who am I to say the NSAI might be wrong? :rolleyes:

Your the installation company :rolleyes:

altor

GreeBo wrote: »

Just rang the orignal installers and he quoted €80 call out charge including the first hour or work, so looks like €150 was pretty close to the mark.

No mention of having to move the panel from the HP either.

Thx.

To move the panel 2 foot would take less than an hour. If he was moving the alarm out of the hot press it would take him 2 hours.

It is a fire hazard having it in the hot press, dry area. The standards for EN50131 plus the ETCI regulations say it should not be in there.

GreeBo

altor wrote: »

It is a fire hazard having it in the hot press, dry area. The standards for EN50131 plus the ETCI regulations say it should not be in there.

Out of interest why is the hot press any more of a firehazard than a bedroom?

indie armada

GreeBo wrote: »

Out of interest why is the hot press any more of a firehazard than a bedroom?

a lot more kindling in the form of clothes/towels ect. usually stock up against the panel might cause it to overheat especially if the immersion is on........i would imagine this is the reason anyway.

altor

GreeBo wrote: »

Out of interest why is the hot press any more of a firehazard than a bedroom?

It is classed as a dry area at risk of fire. 2011 might be able to add something in with regard the electrical safety concerns from the ETCI.

My advice is if your getting it moved 2 foot for €80 - €150 get the installer to move it out of the hot press.

GreeBo

altor wrote: »

It is classed as a dry area at risk of fire. 2011 might be able to add something in with regard the electrical safety concerns from the ETCI.

My advice is if your getting it moved 2 foot for €80 - €150 get the installer to move it out of the hot press.

Thx.

Other than the attic (where there is already a junction box) there is no where else thats suitable/available Im afraid.

KoolKid

TBH this is a big fuss over nothing. In reality the hot press is fine. Mine is in a hot press & there is no way I'm putting in the landing or on a bedroom wall for no good reason. Use the lowest possible fuse rating for the mains & the power supply if you are really concerned. In all my years in the business I have not come across a single incident of an alarm panel starting a fire in a hot press. I have , however seen junctions on an immersion burnt out. Maybe we should move them out of the hot press.:rolleyes:
I don't want to get away from the OPs questions & into the rights & wrongs of the standards. We've done all that before. If I have a system passed by NSAI or any other certification body then thats good enough for me. It also tells me its a very low priority for them also/

2011

Electrical apparatus is designed to operate under certain conditions. Installing something such as an alarm panel in a hot press has several disadvantages such as:



1) *****High ambient temperature - Possible fire hazard

2) *****The possibility of clothing surrounding the panel further increasing the possibility of the panel overheating. -Possible fire hazard

3) *****Generally alarm panels would have a very low IP rating (if any). The hot press can become quite humid due to wet clothing drying.

4) *****From a servicing point of view most hot presses would make it quite difficult to be able to work on the panel properly. I am sure that there are exceptions to this. However it is interesting to note that the ETCI now insist that distribution boards are to be installed in a more accessible manner.



Personally I have seen an alarm panel that went on fire in a hot press, so I would not install one there myself and I would suggest to people that have them there to remove them. The ETCI did not come up with that rule just to be difficult, it was as result of lessons learnt.

KoolKid

As I said I do not want to go off topic & turn this thread into an argument re the standards.
I 'll quickly address your points & then end off.
Ill happily discuss further in a seperate thread if anyone want to,

2011 wrote: »

1) *****High ambient temperature - Possible fire hazard

Sheds, cabins & garages & conservatories would have much higher temp in warm weather, not to mention utility rooms with a dryer and more on the go.

2011 wrote: »

2) *****The possibility of clothing surrounding the panel further increasing the possibility of the panel overheating. -Possible fire hazard

I have also seen this in other areas like with coats under stairs etc.

2011 wrote: »

3) *****Generally alarm panels would have a very low IP rating (if any). The hot press can become quite humid due to wet clothing drying.

As above

2011 wrote: »

4) *****From a servicing point of view most hot presses would make it quite difficult to be able to work on the panel properly. I am sure that there are exceptions to this. However it is interesting to note that the ETCI now insist that distribution boards are to be installed in a more accessible manner.

With a few arkward exceptions I find hot press very accessible & at easy height.

2011 wrote: »

The ETCI did not come up with that rule just to be difficult, it was as result of lessons learnt.

There are plenty of standards that make little or no sense. One example would be why a telecom fault is not allowed generate an alarm, There are loads of silly issues like that. If you want you can look at most application & find some obscure possibility that may , in extreem cases be dangerous.
But like I said thats for another thread.
Maybe after a bad day I'll start one with a long list.:D

altor

2011 wrote: »

Electrical apparatus is designed to operate under certain conditions. Installing something such as an alarm panel in a hot press has several disadvantages such as:



1) *****High ambient temperature - Possible fire hazard

2) *****The possibility of clothing surrounding the panel further increasing the possibility of the panel overheating. -Possible fire hazard

3) *****Generally alarm panels would have a very low IP rating (if any). The hot press can become quite humid due to wet clothing drying.

4) *****From a servicing point of view most hot presses would make it quite difficult to be able to work on the panel properly. I am sure that there are exceptions to this. However it is interesting to note that the ETCI now insist that distribution boards are to be installed in a more accessible manner.



Personally I have seen an alarm panel that went on fire in a hot press, so I would not install one there myself and I would suggest to people that have them there to remove them. The ETCI did not come up with that rule just to be difficult, it was as result of lessons learnt.

Thanks 2011..

I was on to the NSAI today and they confirmed that if the alarm is to be upgraded then it needs to be moved out of the hot press as per the EN50131 standard for alarms plus ETCI regulations.

KoolKid

2011,Altor.. Can we get back to the OPs original request? Which was for a quote to move the panel up 2 ft.. I am not disputing it is the standard. It is! Ofcourse the NSAI are going to confirm that.
It can still be signed off at the customers request. I have done this, so either accept it can be done or call me a liar.
After all the customer can decide after a year not to have thier alarm serviced, in which case the system is no longer up to the standard either. The OP was asking about an electricain doing the job as well. The system would not be up to standard then either. To say its dangerous is an overstatement IMO. Remember at the end on the day this forum is about us , who know, helping others here to either do things themselves or how to get things done. A panel in the hot press is no more dangerous than us advising someone to change a battery themselves or go up a ladder to a bell box or maybe to change a bulb in a halogen lamp.
You could argue all of these could be fatal in the extreem. If there was a standard issued that a home owner could not do DIY because it may be dangerous, what do you think would happen?
To summerise this.. The OP needs to move his panel up the wall & wanted a quote for same. I rekoned 2 hours , you rekoned one & we quoted accordingly. The issue of panels in the hotpress was pointed out to the OP. His reply was

there is no where else thats suitable/available Im afraid.

On that basis I advise the options accordingly. I am not going to ram unnecessary work down his (or any other customers) throat.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

I am not disputing it is the standard. It is!

Yes it is the standard but why cut corners for the sake of moving the panel.

koolkid wrote: »

I am not going to ram unnecessary work down his (or any other customers) throat.

Neither am i but if he is going to pay some installer "not me" to move his panel why not get it moved to a proper location away from any danger and brought up to the EN50131 standard ? I am sure the engineer would have no problem rerouting the cables to an agreed location.

KoolKid

It s not a case of cutting corners. I thought you knew me better than that.
The OP was clearly looking for the best price and also stated he had no other place he wanted it moved to.

meercat

lads the current electrical regulations state
555.6.1
electrical equipment in domestic airing cupboard only allow
an immersion heater and its associated wiring but excluding switches
auxiliary equipment associated with water heating systems

a switching device controlling an immersion heater shall not be located inside an airing cupboard555.6.2

i think altor has a point.if you are going to move it you may as well do it to the regs.i also dont think the client should decide if he should ignore the regulations either.these were introduced to prevent fires in the hotpress.

KoolKid

But my point is the customer can. If that were not the case I would be getting a lot more money for upgrading systems. However my policy would be, if it's allowed, to give the customer the options and let them decide.

meercat

thanks koolkid but the customer cant decide.if you cant do the job to current regulations walk away .its not worth the hassle.if a problem arises later he can come back at you through the courts.he could say he didnt realise the consequences.im not getting at you here,im just pointing out the electrical regs for reference.cheers

altor

meercat wrote: »

lads the current electrical regulations state
555.6.1
electrical equipment in domestic airing cupboard only allow
an immersion heater and its associated wiring but excluding switches
auxiliary equipment associated with water heating systems

a switching device controlling an immersion heater shall not be located inside an airing cupboard555.6.2

i think altor has a point.if you are going to move it you may as well do it to the regs.i also dont think the client should decide if he should ignore the regulations either.these were introduced to prevent fires in the hotpress.

Thanks meercat,

The regulations are there for a reason. If moving the panel out of the hot press to the attic is the only other option then installing it there is the thing to do. I know its outside the protected area but a pir installed will cover this issue.

altor

meercat wrote: »

thanks koolkid but the customer cant decide.if you cant do the job to current regulations walk away .its not worth the hassle.if a problem arises later he can come back at you through the courts.he could say he didnt realise the consequences.im not getting at you here,im just pointing out the electrical regs for reference.cheers

Thats what was said to me today by the NSAI.

KoolKid

As I have said I have had jobs like this inspected and passed by the NSAI. It Is allowed. If it wasn't I wouldn't give it as an option.

2011

Koolkid:
I am not saying that you are right or wrong. Altor asked what the regulations are. I said what they are and I gave my opinion as to why the ETCI have that regulation. The regulation is a fact.

If the regulation is a stupid one or not is a very different arguement and we are all entilted to an opinion on that.

In my opinion the regulation is a good one because I have seen an alarm panel that went on fire which was installed in a hot press. The funny thing is the panel was in the home of an alarm installer (before this reg came in). I can PM you his name if you like (well known in the trade).

I agree that Koolkid makes some fair points.

fred funk }{

I recently had a job inspected where the panel was in the hotpress. It was an upgrade and the customer under no circumstances wanted her house rewired in order to relocate her panel.

I rang EQA , who are my certifying body, at the time of the install and they told me that if the customer signs that they are fully aware of the implications of the panel remaining in the hotpress that it can stay there.

When the inspector was out he noted the note on the 'as fitted document' and passed it.

When possible I move the panel to a better location, normally the attic which is the handiest.

2011

Fred I accept your point 100%. I am only stating the ETCI regultion.

altor

The standards read clear to me for the alarm to be certified the panel must be moved out of the hot press. I have as an installer come across this alot over the years and when explained to the customer the risks involved with having the alarm in the hot press they are more than happy for me to move it. If the alarm panel is not being moved it should not be certified as a EN50131 certified alarm, regardless of the inspector signing it off. I am sure the customers insurance company would have a problem with this if the customer is claiming to have a EN50131 alarm installed. There is also implications with regard the ETCI regulations as has being pointed out.

KoolKid

The single point I am making is that it can be done and I have done it. WRT Insurance a claims are being refused for systems not being serviced. Far more people would be affected by this.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

The single point I am making is that it can be done and I have done it.

Point taken but whats the point having standards if the alarm is not installed to them

If an alarm is to be certified to the EN50131 standard i would at lease expect the alarm to be but in reality its not

Makes no sense to me to be honest

KoolKid

Like I said there are lots in the standards that make no sense to me, but thats for another discussion.
Again my point is why would the OP goto the trouble of moving the panel to somewhere he doesn't want it for it to be up to standard for 1 year. Going by the reaction to the quote it doesnt seem he is going to be paying to get it serviced every year. Ofcourse install to the standard thats what they are there for. But sometimes common sense must prevail. Say for examply you service a system for an elderly person who can no longer get about they way they used to. They need the entry/exit time extended to ,say 120 seconds. The standards say that is not allowed. For argument sake moving the keypad is a big job .The customer does not want wiring work carried out to move a keypad etc. Would you just increase the entry exit time? or insist the work must be done?
Now without mentioning names , our inspector is the most black & white person I know, but he is even willing to accept changes like the hot press.

fred funk }{

I've discussed things like the entry/exit time and the armed display with the inspector. He told me that common sense prevails in some circumstances eg. an elderly person or a disabled person would need more time to get in/out of the house.
He also agreed that in some circumstances the armed display can be used as some end users find it difficult to do even the most basic tasks on the keypad and get confused not knowing if the alarm is set or not.

Same as above regarding quick sets, they're OK in some circumstances.

altor

They are there for a reason, especially the ETCI regulations.

He was more so shocked at the price of moving the panel up 2 foot. Even if he does not get the alarm serviced the next year should not be the point, the alarm should be installed to the standard your claiming it to be.

Moving a keypad and moving a panel out of a hot press for fire safety concerns are totally different situations. If the elderly person was in that situation they could always get a keyfob added on to there alarm, plus if the alarm is being upgraded in a elderly persons hot press i hope your installing plenty of smoke detectors just in case.

The inspector i deal with in the NSAI told me there is no way it can be done, i argued the same point you gave but he still said the no. I am not saying you are a liar, that is what he told me.

KoolKid

We are really going round in circles here.. Which is why I didn't want this to become a discussion about the standards & thier faults.

I think boards works best when we address what the original posters ask .
My replys in different threads would be based on those requests first.
With that in mind I quoted accordingly & based purly on what he said here. I would allow 2 hours your rekoned an hour. Hard to say for sure without physically looking at the job. Likewise it would be impossible to estimate that the panel could be moved elsewhere for the same cost .
The OP also stated there was nowhere else he wanted it. With that in mind I pointed out his options allowing for the panel to be still certified if required. Not withstanding the fact that there may be other work required to bring the system up to standard . That could mean 2 hour, 3 hours or more.

altor

There is no need to tell me how boards work

The op asked a question and you gave him a reply. No one is questioning that.
I am entitled to my opinion also.

With regards my reply i simply gave him facts of the regulations that govern alarms. Two other electricians gave there view also with regard the regulation of the ETCI.

koolkid wrote: »

The OP also stated there was nowhere else he wanted it. .

In fact the op stated

GreeBo wrote: »

Other than the attic (where there is already a junction box) there is no where else thats suitable/available Im afraid.

The attic is the best option for him plus when he is moving the panel 2 foot i said he may as well have it moved out of the hot press.

Another thing to note is

koolkid wrote: »

But my point is the customer can. If that were not the case I would be getting a lot more money for upgrading systems. However my policy would be, if it's allowed, to give the customer the options and let them decide.

You where told

meercat wrote: »

thanks koolkid but the customer cant decide.if you cant do the job to current regulations walk away .its not worth the hassle.if a problem arises later he can come back at you through the courts.he could say he didnt realise the consequences.im not getting at you here,im just pointing out the electrical regs for reference.cheers

Yes it would cost more to move the panel buts it alot easier to change the panel over where it is, thats cutting corners to me. As i have said if i come across a panel in a hot press, i either move the panel or walk away. Getting a customer to sign to say they understand that it should not be left there is in my eyes not installing the alarm to the EN50131 standard. If that is what you do, thats your business. I am not here to tell you how it should be done.

There are the regulations for the electrician which we have to adhere to also. In fact boards is all about sharing information but safety has to come first. If someone did decide to change there own panel in the hot press and god for bid it was to go on fire, what would you say then, as its grand i have never seen it happen. If it save one life not having the alarm in the hot press then thats good enough for me.