Quick Clamping Question

grundie

I'll start by admitting that this sort of question is asked a lot, but there is something different about this.

We live in a private development, we have to pay for our parking. We do this by buying a weekly ticket from the pay and display machine.

Currently we are paid up till tomorrow night. The problem is that the the ticket, that is made from cheap thermal paper, has curled up and because the parking company bod couldn't make out the expiry date they have clamped the vehicle.

So the ticket was valid and it was on the dashboard. Because we didn't weight it down with something we got clamped. We called and pleaded our case, but the parking company is refusing to play ball and say they have picture of the curled up ticket. It is irrelevant to them that the ticket is valid, they must be able to see it.

I am thinking of calling them and telling them to remove the clamp within 60 minutes, otherwise I will remove the clamp myself. I have an angle grinder and I could easily remove the clamp. I will also inform the Gards in advance of my intention to remove the clamp and why.

Does this seem like a sane strategy? I need to take baby to the doctor at 1pm and I am not paying APCOA €150 to get the clamp removed before then. I feel they have clamped me wrongly and that the Gards would have little interest in getting involved should APCOA claim criminal damage to the clamp.

KamiKazi

AFAIK only Dublin City Council are regulated clampers, anyone else is just a private firm and the only recourse they can have against you for removing a clamp is to take up a civil case to recoup the cost of damage done to the clamp.

I highly doubt they will pursue you with a civil case for the cost of one chain link.

bigbadbear

grundie wrote: »

I'll start by admitting that this sort of question is asked a lot, but there is something different about this.

We live in a private development, we have to pay for our parking. We do this by buying a weekly ticket from the pay and display machine.

Currently we are paid up till tomorrow night. The problem is that the the ticket, that is made from cheap thermal paper, has curled up and because the parking company bod couldn't make out the expiry date they have clamped the vehicle.

So the ticket was valid and it was on the dashboard. Because we didn't weight it down with something we got clamped. We called and pleaded our case, but the parking company is refusing to play ball and say they have picture of the curled up ticket. It is irrelevant to them that the ticket is valid, they must be able to see it.

I am thinking of calling them and telling them to remove the clamp within 60 minutes, otherwise I will remove the clamp myself. I have an angle grinder and I could easily remove the clamp. I will also inform the Gards in advance of my intention to remove the clamp and why.

Does this seem like a sane strategy? I need to take baby to the doctor at 1pm and I am not paying APCOA €150 to get the clamp removed before then. I feel they have clamped me wrongly and that the Gards would have little interest in getting involved should APCOA claim criminal damage to the clamp.

Don't tell them you are going to remove it!!!! that way they'll have you for criminal damage. we are not allowed to tell people to do things illigall on boards so i wont. If you were to cut the clamp off make sure there are no cameras or people around. If you were caught doing this you would be fined around 800 euro. If you arent caught you they cant do anything


Don't do it though

Yawns

Let us know how you got on with it

cantdecide

Don't do it.

You would need a con saw if you were to do it anyway...

grundie

I was assuming that because I had a valid ticket and was parked legally, well legally as per APCOAs rules, then I had the right to take reasonable measures to recover my property.

If APCOA were being reasonable they would remove the clamp, we were fully paid up and it's not our fault that it got so hot underground and caused the ticket to curl up.

I'll have a think about it and let you know what happens. Don't worry I won't do anything illegal. I wouldn't want to give APCOA the pleasure.

PS. I think our car is 'marked' by APCOA. I once came down to renew the weekly ticket with only 5 mins to spare. The clamper was leaning against our car staring at his watch with a clamp at his feet waiting for the time to tick over. With one minute to spare I went over to the car and put the new ticket on the dashboard and grinned at the clamper. He looked upset.

dirtydiesel

A good grinder would cut through the lock in less than a minute, the chain would also be no match for the grinder not that im telling you to do it or anything like that:)

Absurdum

grundie wrote: »

PS. I think our car is 'marked' by APCOA. I once came down to renew the weekly ticket with only 5 mins to spare. The clamper was leaning against our car staring at his watch with a clamp at his feet waiting for the time to tick over. With one minute to spare I went over to the car and put the new ticket on the dashboard and grinned at the clamper. He looked upset.

He was leaning illegally, you should have clamped him.

Also, remove the clamp yourself.

antodeco

You could always take up a course on lock picking, just in case you ever lock a padlock with a key by mistake... :pac:

Viper_JB

antodeco wrote: »

You could always take up a course on lock picking, just in case you ever lock a padlock with a key by mistake... :pac:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eGxRQlWTrM
No criminal damage done. These clamping companies are the devil himself you should get the angle grinder out to the cheeky b*stard leaning against your car.

squod

Have you ever paid them before? If not, you will have no contract with them. Phone them and ask them to remove the clamp. If they demand randsom, ask to see the contract they have with you.

If they refuse to remove the clamp and have no contract with you (agreeing to being clamped in a tenancy agreement etc.) then remove it yourself. It won't be the last time you'll have to do this.

stimpson

If it's a standard padlock you could try this...

http://www.i-hacked.com/content/view/189/48/

When you get the clamp, ring the clampers and say that someone has parked illegally. When they arrive, CLAMP THEM!!

edit: Meh - beaten to it.

corktina

you need to be careful here as a tenant you would be in breach of your tenancy agreement here...

they are playing hardball here but are technically right as it is Pay and DISPLAY...not your fault the ticket curled, but not theirs either.

Id only advocate cutting off the clamp IF you were sure that you had been wrongly clamped....

stimpson

The ticket was displayed, albeit curled up. At the end of the day you could always use the Homer Simpson defence - if nobody sees you then it's not illegal. They would have a hard time proving that you removed the clamp.

Another thing you could do to piss them off is to buy 4 clamps in Halfords and clamp all of your wheels.

Yawns

If you're willing to pay, put some superglue in the lock and let it set in. Make sure noone sees you doing this. Then ring them and call them out.

I think if they can't get it off in a reasonably short time they will have to cut it themselves and you're not liable to pay. They'll bring you to court but a judge will dismiss their claim ;D

Also rememebr to record them trying to remove it. If they damage your car you can bring them to court for criminal damage

grundie

An update.

Didn't get much done today as baby started playing up and I had to get him his shots.

Faxed a letter to APCOA requesting the remove they clamp. I pointed out that the curling of the ticket was something I did not expect to happen and that it was legitimately out of my control and for those reasons I believe the clamping was not justified and the reasonable thing to do would be for them to remove it. I also said I intended to remove the clamp, after informing the Gardai of my intentions, if they did not do so. They have not yet responded.

My wife has asked me not to cut the clamp off just yet, as she is afraid of what may happen. So I put another padlock on it. effectively clamping the clamp. The extra padlock is attached to the chain and axle, so it would be hard to remove without some lifting equipment. I don't know what impact this will have, but it somehow seemed like an appropriate thing to do in case they try to tow it away.

grundie

corktina wrote: »

you need to be careful here as a tenant you would be in breach of your tenancy agreement here...

they are playing hardball here but are technically right as it is Pay and DISPLAY...not your fault the ticket curled, but not theirs either.

Id only advocate cutting off the clamp IF you were sure that you had been wrongly clamped....

They could be reasonable and remove the clamp because we are fully paid up and the curling of a week-old ticket has to be expected in hot weather in a humid underground car park.

I'm pretty sure we are in the right here. I'm willing to gamble that we would win if it ever went to court.

cantdecide

grundie wrote: »

....So I put another padlock on it. effectively clamping the clamp. The extra padlock is attached to the chain and axle, so it would be hard to remove without some lifting equipment...

Call them out and tell them it's your lock and that they are not allowed to damage your lock while removing their clamp.

grundie

cantdecide wrote: »

Call them out and tell them it's your lock and that they are not allowed to damage your lock while removing their clamp.

That's my intention.

If they keep playing hardball and my good lady is still afraid of the repercussions of grinding the clamp off (she's a non-EU national and afraid of getting in to trouble), we may end up paying the removal fee.

We'll then ask for our removal fee which will be equal to theirs.

It's not actually a padlock, it's a small Kryptonite bike lock, but it does the job very well.

I see it as payback not just for this incident, but also for their awful pay and display machines that charge €25 for a weeks parking, but can only accept 15 coins in a single transaction (no cards or notes accepted). I know people in my block have been clamped whilst trying to get the right change for these machines.

The Davestator

I'd call the Gardai and explain the story to them. If you get the right garda, e might make the phone call to them for you and save you the hassle and risk of removing it yourself.
It probably wont be as satisfying as cutting it, but if you're there to witness them removing it for free, that'll will have to do you!:D

Grumpypants

I think you have screwed yourself by putting in the letter you will remove it, if anything happens the clamp now they can sue you for damages as they have proof. I dont know why you put that in a letter. They wont do anything because everyday you dont pay you get more fines added to your bill.

You should have just cut it off and drove away leaving it there. If they asked tell them there is a crime spree around at the moment guys robbing clamps that are left unattended.

Cops cant do anything as its on private property. Do you own your own property ? in that case you can work with others to fire the clamping company.

stimpson

Try the coke can shim. You won't have to damage the lock.

grundie

Grumpypants wrote: »

I think you have screwed yourself by putting in the letter you will remove it, if anything happens the clamp now they can sue you for damages as they have proof. I dont know why you put that in a letter. They wont do anything because everyday you dont pay you get more fines added to your bill.

You should have just cut it off and drove away leaving it there. If they asked tell them there is a crime spree around at the moment guys robbing clamps that are left unattended.

Cops cant do anything as its on private property. Do you own your own property ? in that case you can work with others to fire the clamping company.

It is my belief that they clamped me wrongly. I adhered to the terms of their contract by paying for parking and displaying a ticket - albeit a ticket that curled up when I wasn't looking.

How can they legally deny me access to my property and then sue me when I take the minimum action required to regain control of that property? That seems mighty odd. I have no problem letting them know I will remove the clamp as they are in the wrong, I will defend the removal in the courts if necessary.

We rent an apartment here so we have little sway in getting the parking situation changed unfortunately.

Pkiernan

The clampers can and will most likely argue that the ticket was not visible, and therefore not displayed properly.

It is neither their nor your fault that the ticket curled up, rendering it unreadable.

The clampers should be reasonable, and remove it for free, however, as you are finding, they probably will not.

It will be interesting to see what comes of your lock, and if they have to cut it off what if any consequences will arrive.

However, you may be hurting yourself - if they cannot remove the clamp because of your lock, you may face additional daily charges.

Please keep us posted as to the outcome. Wish you all the best with the clampers.

Yawns

Now there's one I hadn't tought of. Put a chain and lock on their clamp and ring them telling them they will pay. When they turn up tell them someone else owns the chain. Have a brother / friend tell them they own the chain and if any damage is done you will sue for it

The excuse can be they clamped the clamp for being in the car park for longer than 2 hours without displaying a valid ticket The removal fee will equal the clamp removal fee.

I know it's a completly stupid and silly response but in all fairness, it's a bit better than informing them in writing that you are going to cut the lock. If it were me I'd have the clamp off and leave it there.

johnos1984

For future reference if the car is on private property they cannot tow it away.

Also they remove the Clamp after 3-4 days if its on private property as they are not making money from it and also the car could be abandoned for all they know.

Finally i know of people who have cut them before while parked on private property. Yes you will get many letters threatening you but any court would throw them out for wasting time.

However you have made the mistake of telling them what you are going to do. You have a number of options now.

Take the piss and clamp their van when they arrive and double park....because thats what they always do, you'll need your brother to hide with a cheap clamp across the road

Pay up and shut up

Take your chance and 'abandon' the car if you can do without it for a week or so

Try and remove it yourself

Small claims court with all of the evidence

Gran Hermano

Ticket was printed by a machine and on paper supplied by the parking company, surely there is an onus on them to ensure the paper is suitable for displaying in a sunny car window without curling up.

mlmcelligott

Ive had a few run ins with these clamping companies before and I've managed to get one over on them.

Can you describe the type of clamp used?

Once again as already stated on the thread I am not advising you to try and remove it but there are some helpful tips that everyone should know.

If its a chain type then you can leave all the air out of the tyre which should slacken up the chains leaving you with enough space to be able to slip a ratchet and socket in and take the wheel off with the clamp still attached. make sure you have the jack under the car and taking a little bit of the strain to allow you remove the wheel studs/nuts with out lifting the car.

If its the type that is a two part clamp where it clamps the outside rim of the wheel again leave the air out of the tyre and give it a helpful push off the rim. often these types don't clamp correctly onto alloy wheels and sometimes its the pressure of the tyre holding it onto the wheel.

If its the old type with the three U shaped bars and its on the front wheel again leave the air out of the tyre, turn the wheel out and reverse out of it.

I've removed clamps using the first two methods without two much trouble and haven't run into the third type (yet!). The first time i took the chain type off the clamping company arrived just as i was tightening the wheel studs after putting on the spare. the overweight clamper got very excited and told me to stop what i was doing and told me he was calling the guards. Guards arrived and clamper told them i illegally removed his clamp. I showed the guard the clamp, still attached to the wheel which was then in my boot. The guard said I didn't remove the clamp from the wheel so he wasn't needed anymore and walked away smiling. I told the clamper I didn't want to pay the fine yet and drove off. Haven't seen him since and myself and the lads had loads of fun with and angle grinder that evening!

I always carry a good socket set in the boot and disposable camera in the glove box now just in case it happens again. Hope those anecdotes are helpful.

Absurdum

get a bunch of your mates over, dress up as Indians (Native American ones ), chase the clamper cowboys around the carpark, chaos ensues....record it and put it on youtube, tell Joe Duffy, hours of fun!

BnB

Cut it off and throw it in the bin.

Don't even give it a second though.

Private clampers don't have a leg to stand on.

pandaflop

not illegal, just a legal advisory statement.
ill start by saying i am not telling you to take this advice i will simply advise you of the laws and rules with a little advice.

firstly...



<snip of dubious advise and "legally grey" suggestions - as per the charter, advocating or encouraging illegal activity isn't permitted>



....they can do nothing!!!

cormie

pandaflop wrote: »

tell them to balance the money put into the machine against the number of tickets issued and the cars in the car park. this will be tedious and they will refuse. if they refuse they can not legally keep you clamped. i would advise you to record this conversation with your phone, after they have refused you tell them you have recorded that.

Could you explain this a little more please?

neacy69

did you get the clamp removed?

grundie

Another update....

I have the gear ready to remove the clamp and once I get a babysitter I will be getting to work on removing it.

The clamp is a triangular plate with a chain through each tip. The chain is wrapped around the axle so there is no way to remove it without damaging it.

I have no qualms with APCOA knowing what I have done and what I will do. I am spoiling for a fight with them and I will happily stand up in court against them. They used to have a simple and fool-proof pay-on-exit car park system here. The replaced it with pay and display to deliberately deliberately force people to make mistakes and get clamped. This is documented in the management company's annual report.

Proving I paid for the parking is easy, I have the ticket. APCOAs parking attendant just couldn't read it as it had curled up on the dashbaord. I have now blu-tacked the ticket to the dashboard so it is perfectly clear to see, thus offering them the evidence needed to prove parking was paid for... ...and to give them an opportunity to remove the clamp. They have refused this opportunity.

I know it serves no purpose, but I will call the Gards before I remove the clamp. Just so they know that they may receive a call from APCOA.

One way or another, the clamp will be off the car by tonight and APCOA will not be getting a single cent out of us.

KamiKazi

Good man, let us know how you get on.

Jumpy

grundie wrote: »

Another update....

I have the gear ready to remove the clamp and once I get a babysitter I will be getting to work on removing it.

The clamp is a triangular plate with a chain through each tip. The chain is wrapped around the axle so there is no way to remove it without damaging it.

I have no qualms with APCOA knowing what I have done and what I will do. I am spoiling for a fight with them and I will happily stand up in court against them. They used to have a simple and fool-proof pay-on-exit car park system here. The replaced it with pay and display to deliberately deliberately force people to make mistakes and get clamped. This is documented in the management company's annual report.

Proving I paid for the parking is easy, I have the ticket. APCOAs parking attendant just couldn't read it as it had curled up on the dashbaord. I have now blu-tacked the ticket to the dashboard so it is perfectly clear to see, thus offering them the evidence needed to prove parking was paid for... ...and to give them an opportunity to remove the clamp. They have refused this opportunity.

I know it serves no purpose, but I will call the Gards before I remove the clamp. Just so they know that they may receive a call from APCOA.

One way or another, the clamp will be off the car by tonight and APCOA will not be getting a single cent out of us.

When you cut it, make sure you cut the chain only. Then take the chain to someone to get the link replaced. You have returned the clamp in its original condition.

User Friendly

well,whats the story? enjoyed reading that,although im very much on your side OP.....give us an update please.

grundie

More developments...

The clamp is still on, but I have interesting news.

I was about to start cutting he clamp off, aware of the massive CCTV camera overlooking me, when the APCOA man arrived to remove someone else's clamp.

At this point the development security guard came running across the car park to let the APCOA man know what I was doing. He then came over to me and said "I filmed all that, you with the snips and grinder". I responded by saying "I really do not have a problem with that." and he walked away in a bit of an obvious huff.

After a few minutes the APCOA guy came over to me and we had a nice long chat. He was actually a really decent guy and understood my situation, but acknowledged that APCOA don't budge - even when they know that they are probably in the wrong. Throughout the conversation he kept stressing that I really should pay up to avoid problems, I pointed out that I was going to be a belligerent stubborn sod and APCOA will not see a cent from me.

He failed to notice the camcorder in my hand was switched on for the duration.

I learned a lot about APCOA...

The don't like going to court, a dislike that borders on real fear, and always settle at the last minute if they realise their opponent is willing to go all the way.

They know the Garda rarely responds to their criminal damage complaints.

They will however sue for damage to clamps though the civil courts if they can identify the person who did the damage.

They are actively trying to increase income now as they expect proper clamping legislation to be introduced soon that will massively reduce their income.

They nearly always refund fines to people who own Porsches and Ferraris (and the like) if they complain as these are the people with the financial resources to do them real damage and get legal precedents set.

He also told me how to get unclamped for free. I want to to see if it works first before revealing it as I don't want to reveal too much and get this guy in to trouble in case APCOA are listening in. If it does work I will reveal all as soon as I can.

I will do something with the video once all this dies down. I don't want to get the guy in trouble as he was actually dead-on.

I will keep you all informed.

User Friendly

good man.... definitely come back to let us know,thanks and good luck.

johnos1984

Good luck with that.

grundie

I don't why I was so hush-hush with the clamping removal method I was told about last night. It's no big deal to reveal it.

If you have demonstrated a complete and utter unwillingness to pay the clamp removal fee, APCOA will remove the clamp after 4-5 days in the hope that you will move the car away from the car park.

They can't tow it away, so if you show that you are happy to call their bluff and sit it out they have no choice but to remove the clamp otherwise the space and the clamp aren't generating any income for them.

If they suspect the car is abandoned they have to go through a load of legal hoops to be allowed to tow it away.

This is apparently official (but not for public consumption) company policy and I have it on tape.

What this means is that if you have been clamped and have the patience to sit it out, it will be removed after a few days.

I was told a lot of stuff that was prefixed with "I didn't tell you this" or "Between you and me". A very interesting conversation indeed.

I'm rather enjoying playing games with APCOA.

Darando

Your camcorder recording would make a very good YouTube clip

johnos1984

So what i said earlier so................I too learned this from an (ex)Clamper

johnos1984 wrote: »

For future reference if the car is on private property they cannot tow it away.

Also they remove the Clamp after 3-4 days if its on private property as they are not making money from it and also the car could be abandoned for all they know.

Finally i know of people who have cut them before while parked on private property. Yes you will get many letters threatening you but any court would throw them out for wasting time.

glic71rods46t0

grundie wrote: »

I don't why I was so hush-hush with the clamping removal method I was told about last night. It's no big deal to reveal it.

If you have demonstrated a complete and utter unwillingness to pay the clamp removal fee, APCOA will remove the clamp after 4-5 days in the hope that you will move the car away from the car park.

They can't tow it away, so if you show that you are happy to call their bluff and sit it out they have no choice but to remove the clamp otherwise the space and the clamp aren't generating any income for them.

If they suspect the car is abandoned they have to go through a load of legal hoops to be allowed to tow it away.

This is apparently official (but not for public consumption) company policy and I have it on tape.

What this means is that if you have been clamped and have the patience to sit it out, it will be removed after a few days.

I was told a lot of stuff that was prefixed with "I didn't tell you this" or "Between you and me". A very interesting conversation indeed.

I'm rather enjoying playing games with APCOA.

I dont mean to rain on your parade but you dont seem to be playing games with them at all. Your car is still clamped and therefore you dont have the use of it. You have (presumably) paid insurance and tax as well as suffering depreciation on a car you dont have the use of.
While I think you are in the right and shouldnt have been clamped if everything you've said is true (ans I am assuming it is). You are the one losing out here - I doubt the clampers are watching you thinking you have one up on them!

grundie

kvsonep02uaigt wrote: »

I dont mean to rain on your parade but you dont seem to be playing games with them at all. Your car is still clamped and therefore you dont have the use of it. You have (presumably) paid insurance and tax as well as suffering depreciation on a car you dont have the use of.
While I think you are in the right and shouldnt have been clamped if everything you've said is true (ans I am assuming it is). You are the one losing out here - I doubt the clampers are watching you thinking you have one up on them!

The fact that the development security guard(s) have been briefed to keep a very close eye on our car (APCOA guy told me this) means that I can certainly say that APCOA have more than a few concerns about what I am up to.

This is in itself a concern as they development guards are supposed to be protecting our interests over APCOAs.

We don't need the car till Tuesday, but if we need the clamp off before then I will have it off in minutes thanks to Mr. Ryobi's finest battery powered cutting devices.

grundie

A win!

APCOA removed the clamp on Monday. I didn't pay them a single cent.

I suspect that they now may try to send me a bill in the post though. Naturally, it will get an abrasive reply.

squod

grundie wrote: »

A win!

APCOA removed the clamp on Monday. I didn't pay them a single cent.

I suspect that they now may try to send me a bill in the post though. Naturally, it will get an abrasive reply.

No contract written accross the front of the letter they sent you and RTS under it maybe.

grundie

squod wrote: »

No contract written accross the front of the letter they sent you and RTS under it maybe.

I have already devised a cunning plan, sort of.

The car is actually my wife's. I have just been handling this affair for her as she's so tied up with work. They have my name, not hers. If they contact me looking for money, I'll just say "But, I don't own a car in the Republic and I never have, so why you would write to me regarding this matter is most perplexing...."

Del2005

grundie wrote: »

I have already devised a cunning plan, sort of.

The car is actually my wife's. I have just been handling this affair for her as she's so tied up with work. They have my name, not hers. If they contact me looking for money, I'll just say "But, I don't own a car in the Republic and I never have, so why you would write to me regarding this matter is most perplexing...."

Just ignore it. Let them bring you to court and set a precedent.*



*

We all know they won't do this as it will ruin their money making scam

grundie

Del2005 wrote: »

Just ignore it. Let them bring you to court and set a precedent.*



*

We all know they won't do this as it will ruin their money making scam

The APCOA guy admitted to that, they may threaten court but it will never actually end up there.

I think they may be more afraid of people knowing that it is possible to get them to remove the clamp if you have the will to wait a few days
I'm inclined to say a lot of people would see it cheaper to pay a few days Luas or bus fares, rather than the €120 upwards APCOA charges for a de-clamp.

Del2005

grundie wrote: »

The APCOA guy admitted to that, they may threaten court but it will never actually end up there.

I think they may be more afraid of people knowing that it is possible to get them to remove the clamp if you have the will to wait a few days
I'm inclined to say a lot of people would see it cheaper to pay a few days Luas or bus fares, rather than the €120 upwards APCOA charges for a de-clamp.

I'd nearly pay for taxi's in and out of work rather then pay clampers. It may be more expensive but at least they wouldn't be getting any money. But I wouldn't be very surprised if when I got back to my car if some good Samaritan had cut it off;)

The only issue could be if you car was clamped in a not so nice place.