Irish in the British Armed Forces

Gunnerkid

Im shure this has been discussed countless times but what is your opinion on Irish joining up to the British armed forces

(plus Ive added a poll because I havent seen one on this topic before )

Nodin

This will be an interesting discussion that will end well.

Biggins

Why the hell not for gaws sake?
Some of us are willing to move on, forgive and forget.
You do know what the shaking of hands in a church is ment to symbolise?

PogMoThoin

You gotta swear allegiance to the Queen, that You are willing to die for her

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Do they have any irish in the Bristish forces? (Would they like some? :D:D!)

Biggins

PogMoThoin wrote: »

You gotta swear allegiance to the Queen, that You are willing to die for her

So?
Its a persons right to believe that they believe and what they think isn't it?
Or should we deny your right to think and have an opinion too?

minidazzler

I am sure this discussion will end without anyone getting really really annoying and arguing the same old points.

Yes, it is perfectly OK, No, it does not constitute treason, Yes, they should be allowed return home when they want to.

Captain Darling

A jobs a jobs these days. You're going to be making a few quid out of them.

Fcuk it...

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

You do know what the shaking of hands in a church is ment to symbolise?

'If I'm going to die of this poxy disease, so are you.'...?

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

'If I'm going to die of this poxy disease, so are you.'...?

Shush, they might catch on...

(but yea, your right)

CreepingDeath

Captain Darling wrote: »

A jobs a jobs these days. You're going to be making a few quid out of them.

Fcuk it...

But then that just makes them a mercenary, no loyalty whatsoever, despite swearing oaths and what not to get in.

Captain Darling

CreepingDeath wrote: »

But then that just makes them a mercenary, no loyalty whatsoever, despite swearing oaths and what not to get in.

Capitalism makes a mercenary of everyone to a certain extent.

Just a slave to the dollar.

Mr Benevolent

PogMoThoin wrote: »

You gotta swear allegiance to the Queen, that You are willing to die for her

Are you willing to die for Brian Cowen and Mary McAleese?

Thought not.

Biggins

CreepingDeath wrote: »

But then that just makes them a mercenary, no loyalty whatsoever, despite swearing oaths and what not to get in.

So if I join the Irish army but dislike Cowen, that makes me a mercenary too?

News to me!

Agricola

Im shining the RebelHeart lightbeam into the sky right now. Will he arrive in time to save the day? Stay tuned!

Captain Darling

Agricola wrote: »

Im shining the RebelHeart lightbeam into the sky right now. Will he arrive in time to save the day? Stay tuned!

I'm doning my celtic jersey as we speak. It'll take me about 20 minutes to get absolutely loaded though.

Can our national pride wait that long?

CreepingDeath

Biggins wrote: »

So if I join the Irish army but dislike Cowen, that makes me a mercenary too?

News to me!

I never really equated the oaths to a specific person, but to the country in general.

dublincelt

It is pretty much up to the individual. Far be it for me or anyone else to dictate what choices someone makes.

However I would have absolutely no sympathy for any that get killed in places like Iraq and Afghanistan...

Paco Rodriguez

If I was 17 again, I'd do it myself.

snollup

can't understand why anyone would want to join any army.

AckwelFoley

I dont see a problem.

lcrcboy

came across this thread and reminded me of this piss take on joining the british army:

Biggins

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I never really equated the oaths to a specific person, but to the country in general.

True and as a better person would hopefully recognise to forgive, forget and move on, I'd hope with the deep, deep, inter-relationship we now share with our neighbours, we can look out for each other without the past being thrown at us in outdated hatred.

Edit: I might add, I see the queen as a symbol of the country - not the country as a symbol of her!

Wolfe Tone

Personally I think that if a person considers himself Irish he should not join the British army. The BA have a very long history of what can only be described as crimes in our fair Isle.


Even if you leave out the long history between the two countries I dont think a person who considers himself as one nationality should joined the armed forces of another.

My name is URL

No.. and not because of some deep seeded resentment to the UK, but because I believe that Ireland and therefor its people are better off being a non-aligned

If someone gains citizenship of whatever country they want to serve for then I have no issue with it whatsoever

Captain Darling

My name is URL wrote: »

No.. and not because of some deep seeded resentment to the UK, but because I believe that Ireland and therefor its people are better off being a non-aligned

If someone gains citizenship of whatever country they want to serve for then I have no issue with it whatsoever

You just had to go and bring the N word into it....

starbelgrade

Irish soldiers in British & other foreign armies is far from a new phenomenon;

In 1243, they fought against the Welsh

In 1485, they fought with the Yorkists against the Lancastrians in the Wars of the Roses.

As early as the 1520's, Irish troops were to be found in the Netherlands.

The Irish served as Stanley's Irish Regiment from 1587 till 1596 with the Protestant Dutch against the Catholic Spanish.

They fought for Stanley in Spain from 1597 till 1604.

In 1605, the Spanish raised their own Irish Regiment -called the Tyrone Regiment, it served Spain till 1628 when it was dissolved.

During the English Civil War, the Stuart kings hired a large Irish Army to fight the parliamentary forces of Cromwell in England and Scotland.

In July 1644, Alasdair MacColla landed in Scotland with 2,500 Irish veteran soldiers.

In 1689, a 300 man Irish unit served under Bonnie Dundee at the victorious Battle of Killiecrankie, again using the highland charge.

When the Stuarts were driven in to exile in France in 1652 the bulk of the British Army was Irish.

In April 1656, Charles, the Prince of Wales (later Charles II), with his brother James, signed a treaty with the Spanish Crown and took their army to the Spanish Netherlands to fight France. The Irish Regiments again found themselves fighting Cromwell's new model army when allied to France. Elements arrived to fight the Spanish.

William III had raised troops in Ireland in the late 17th century. Most of the Irish Regiments were raised in the mid-1680's.

THE BRITISH ARMY;

The 6th Horse became the 5th Horse in 1690 this in 1746 became the 1st Irish Horse and in Feb 1788 became the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards.

The 5th Royal Irish Lancers were raised in 1689 fought at the Battle of the Boyne and as Ross's Horse were sent to the Netherlands were disbanded in 1799 having being infiltrated by the United Irishmen. The 5th was raised again in 1858.

The 6th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards were raised in 1689 to fight for King William III. The Regiment left Ireland in 1708 and did not return for 100 years fighting in the 1715 rebellion in Scotland were in Flanders and fought at Fontenoy in 1745, later at Waterloo in 1815 and Balaclava in the Crimea in 1854.

The 8th Royal Irish Hussars was raised in 1693 as dragoons later called 8th Dragoons or King's Royal Irish Light Dragoons. In 1823 they became 8th Royal Irish Hussars.

The 18th Foot (Royal Irish Regiment) was raised in 1683 and fought against King James II. It fought against the Irish Brigade in Flanders and the Spanish Irish Regiments at Gibraltar.

The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were raised in 1689, and in 1751 it became the 27th Regt. of Foot. In July 1968 the Inniskillings was amalgamated with other Irish Regiments to become the Royal Irish Rangers.

The Royal Irish Rifles were raised as the 83rd Regiment of Foot in October 1758. Disbanded in 1763 and raised again in 1793.

The 86th Regiment was raised in November 1756, disbanded in 1763 and raised again in 1778. In 1881 the 83rd and 86th were combined to form the Royal Irish Regiment.

The 87th Regiment and 89th Regiment were raised in Ireland in 1793. In 1881 the two Regiments were amalgamated to form the Royal Irish Fusiliers in 1968 this was amalgamated in to the Royal Irish Rangers.

The Connaught Rangers were formed in September 1793 as the 88th Regiment, following a Republican mutiny in 1920 the Regiment was disbanded in 1922.

The Leinster regiment also disbanded in 1922 was formed from the 100th and 109th Regiments of Foot.

The Royal Munster Fusiliers were formed from 101st and 104th Regiments and it too was disbanded in 1922.

The Royal Dublin Fusiliers was created from 102 and 103rd Regiments in India but can trace their origins back to 1661. The Regiment was stood down in 1922.

The newest addition were The Irish Guards raised after the Boer War in which Irish Brigades served on both the British and Boer side. Reserve units such as the North and South Irish Horse, The London Irish Rifles, The 8th King's Liverpool Irish and the Tyneside Irish Battalions (24th, 25th, 26th, 27th Battalions Northumberland Fusiliers), were raised and fought in the 1914-1919 War. The Royal Irish Rangers were merged with the Ulster Defence Regiment battalions and the London Irish Rifles in 1992 to form the Royal Irish Regiment.

The British Army had always used Irishmen, in fact it is has been said "the British Empire was won by the Irish, administered by the Scots and Welsh and the profits went to the English". In recent years the last line was amended to read "lost by the English." The Normans used Irish mercenaries in France, Wales and Scotland. The majority of the Tudor Army in Ireland was Irish, as were Tudor troops abroad. Queen Elizabeth I even raised her own Galloglas unit known as The Queen Majesty's Galloglas.

By 1707 the British had six Irish Regiments, by 1713 this had dropped to 2, but later raised to 5 Irish Regiments. However it was estimated that by 1860 some two thirds of the British Army including the English country regiments was constituted by Irishmen or their descendants. A Quarter of a million Irishmen would die the 1st World War when the 3 Irish Divisions were created, being the 10th, 16th and 36th Divisions. In the Second World War, the 38th Irish Brigade was formed. Irish Regiments were formed in the Armies of South Africa, Canada and Australia.

buckshotbrolan

Gunnerkid wrote: »

Im shure this has been discussed countless times but what is your opinion on Irish joining up to the British armed forces

(plus Ive added a poll because I havent seen one on this topic before )

My pop's jonied the brit army in the 70's.

We travelled the world, i was born in Germany and we spent over 7 years in Cyprus, along with other places, i had a great life. Pops also told me to never join the army tho.

Din Taylor

I believe that the Irish government/state places no restrictions on its citizens serving in the armed forces of other countries. The UK is our closest neighbour so why not.
Stuff that happened almost 90 years ago should, today, be relevant only for history books.

CreepingDeath

Biggins wrote: »

True and as a better person would hopefully recognise to forgive, forget and move on, I'd hope with the deep, deep, inter-relationship we now share with our neighbours, we can look out for each other without the past being thrown at us in outdated hatred.

Where do you see hatred ????

I was making an unemotional observation that armies tend to require their soldiers to have unconditional loyalty to that armies country.
If you're from another country, and want to retain your original nationality, it just seems a little conflicted.

I think you've read, or should I say misread a whole lot in my post just to make that politically correct speech.

Wolfe Tone

Em, under 60,000 Irish died in WW1. Not a quarter of a million.

starbelgrade

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Em, under 60,000 Irish died in WW1. Not a quarter of a million.

How do you know? Did you count them?

Wolfe Tone

buckshotbrolan wrote: »

My pop's jonied the brit army in the 70's.

We travelled the world, i was born in Germany and we spent over 7 years in Cyprus, along with other places, i had a great life. Pops also told me to never join the army tho.

Now this I don't understand. In the decade in which Bloody Sunday occurred your father, who I assume is an Irish man? Joined the British army.

Biggins

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Where do you see hatred ????

I was making an unemotional observation that armies tend to require their soldiers to have unconditional loyalty to that armies country.
If you're from another country, and want to retain your original nationality, it just seems a little conflicted.

I think you've read, or should I say misread a whole lot in my post just to make that politically correct speech.

The "hatred" would only be in those not willing to move on from the eras of the past when things were not so good between our two countries.
(Such as the speck minority up north that are still living in the past with an outdated ideology)
As for "politically correct speech" - sorry if what I post upsets you for the way I feel, irrespective if its politically correct or not.
Being "politically correct" or trying to be, is never on my mind at all when I post.

As for the conflict issue between countries - unless they declare war on Ireland tomorrow - I don't see a problem.
If they do announce war tomorrow on the Irish, I'd suddenly think twice. Until then, I'd continue to follow orders.

Wolfe Tone

starbelgrade wrote: »

How do you know? Did you count them?

In every book I have ever read on the subject it has never even approached 250,000. I imagine sites such as Wikipedia would agree. Cant be arsed to check though.

KevinVonSpiel

If I was 17 again, I'd learn Ukrainian & join the Ukrainian Army.

starbelgrade

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

In every book I have ever read on the subject it has never even approached 250,000. I imagine sites such as Wikipedia would agree. Cant be arsed to check though.

The figure on the National War Memorial is 49,400. Not sure where the 1/4 of a million came from - I just cut & pasted it.

Wolfe Tone

starbelgrade wrote: »

The figure on the National War Memorial is 49,400. Not sure where the 1/4 of a million came from - I just cut & pasted it.

No probs, everybody makes mistakes!

gurramok

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Now this I don't understand. In the decade in which Bloody Sunday occurred your father, who I assume is an Irish man? Joined the British army.

I wonder will the positive responses be different when the Bloody Sunday report is out in a few weeks.

Star Bingo

poll suggests 5 from every 6 irish need to be put to sleep

any way to see who voted? don't like snakes in the grass at all

going to war with the brits is not the only alternative to going to war against the brits. very disappointing poll outcome, children. playing COD: MW much?

Wolfe Tone

gurramok wrote: »

I wonder will the positive responses be different when the Bloody Sunday report is out in a few weeks.

Exactly! Personally I am expecting another attempted whitewash: akin to what the Israelis are saying about what happened on the flotilla.

starbelgrade

Star Bingo wrote: »

going to war with the brits is not the only alternative to going to war against the brits.

Oh dear.

Biggins

I wonder will the positive responses be different when the Bloody Sunday report is out in a few weeks.

For me "no".
I would still say "yes" to the origional question.
Its time to move on. Forgive and forget. We ALL are not without sin and we ALL have learned lessons.

I'm sick of the past been used as a yard stick to beat progress happening, by those that want the rest to stay in a mode of thinking that belongs in the past.

Pauleta

I actually thought about it a good few years ago but then i realised im a big pussy and a desk job would suit me. I have no problems with people joining although even if i did have a problem its none of my business on how some individual decided to work for an army of another country. Some people take the whole nationality thing a bit to seriously. For me its just a passport or something i fill in on forms, just like my telephone number or my address.

Our man in Havana

Din Taylor wrote: »

I believe that the Irish government/state places no restrictions on its citizens serving in the armed forces of other countries. The UK is our closest neighbour so why not.
Stuff that happened almost 90 years ago should, today, be relevant only for history books.

Even if they didn't allow it, I would stick 2 fingers up at them and join anyways.

My name is URL

Star Bingo wrote: »

poll suggests 5 from every 6 irish need to be put to sleep

any way to see who voted? don't like snakes in the grass at all

going to war with the brits is not the only alternative to going to war against the brits. very disappointing poll outcome, children. playing COD: MW much?

ffs, is everything that black & white for you? It doesn't need to be a case of "If you're not with us you're against us." But you're the one that drew that conclusion so you obviously see it as true

Wolfe Tone

Biggins wrote: »

For me "no".
I would still say "yes" to the origional question.
Its time to move on. Forgive and forget. We ALL are not without sin and we ALL have learned lessons.

I'm sick of the past been used as a yard stick to beat progress happening, by those that want the rest to stay in a mode of thinking that belongs in the past.

Ahhhhhh how nice! Everyone makes mistakes! Never mind they have murdered irishmen, sure thats in the past! And while we are in a forgiving mood lets apply that logic to politicians too!
Ahhsure FF they did bad things, but bless em, lets not let use the past against them! Lets forgive and forget eh!

Those who ignore the past are bound to repeat it.
See how ridiculous your logic is?

paddypowder

Its a fairly unique situation

I feel it has something to do with the constant bombardment of anti irish media.
Irish people have become the laughing stocks of the world thanks to its un-patriotic population.

It would be interesting to see how many french(born and bred) fight in the british army.

its a non-issue in most other countries, i dont even think the idea really exists

Mrmoe

I don't see a huge problem with it. I think most Irish people who would join would see it as being a profession rather than a vocation. I would prefer to join the US army myself and I will do so with the mindset of being a professional soldier. You could look at it in the same way that sports people play for countries other than those of their birth, some do it because of a sense of belonging while others do it because they would to participate at the highest level in world cups/Olympics etc. I do not see much difference with joining the British Army.

danbohan

Pauleta wrote: »

I actually thought about it a good few years ago but then i realised im a big pussy and a desk job would suit me. I have no problems with people joining although even if i did have a problem its none of my business on how some individual decided to work for an army of another country. Some people take the whole nationality thing a bit to seriously. For me its just a passport or something i fill in on forms, just like my telephone number or my address.

Some people take the whole nationality thing a bit to seriously.

yea you mean like dying for it ,sort of ?

Biggins

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Ahhhhhh how nice! Everyone makes mistakes! Never mind they have murdered irishmen, sure thats in the past! And while we are in a forgiving mood lets apply that logic to politicians too!
Ahhsure FF they did bad things, but bless em, lets not let the past against them! Lets forgive and forget eh!

See how ridiculous your logic is?

If Fianna Fail acknowledged their problems (and who was it that set up/allowed the new inquiry - O' yea - the British!) and moved on - what hell is the problem with others thusly moving on?

Sorry you don't get that connection.

By the way, Hitler killed Irish people - are we to hate Germany too?
Stalin killed Irish people - do we hate Russia now as well?
Pol-pot and Vietnam?
Every other nutcase and country that might have managed to kill Irish people?
O' wait - Mussolini - should we hate Italy now too?
Franco - Spain?

Spot the hypocrisy yet?