I seen her...that is to say I SAW her

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

The people of Ireland.



*sigh* :rolleyes:

We grow up in a society that speaks Hiberno-English, which is a dialect of English that has evolved over hundreds of years. It's irrelevant if we studied "English" in school - We speak Hiberno-English.



It's not a matter of wishing to do so or not. It's just a matter of fact. Irish people speak Hiberno-English. The same way that Americans speak American-English. You seem to have a serious problem with the fact that Ireland has it's own dialect of English. The way we speak is a result of two languages intermixing in society. It doesn't matter if the Irish language is no longer prevalent as it once was - the foundation is already set and has been set for many generations.

You can speak whatever way you wish - but the genuine dialect of Ireland, is Hiberno-English and this is not up for debate. It's merely a matter of fact. Deal with it.

What has all that to do with 'I seen' and 'I done'?

They were wrong before and they are wrong now,and no amount of bulldust will get by that

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What has all that to do with 'I seen' and 'I done'?

I explained what it has to do with it. We speak Hiberno-English. Not British-English. We say things slightly differently. To be annoyed with people for speaking their own dialect of English is silly.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

They were wrong before and they are wrong now,and no amount of bulldust will get by that

They are wrong in British-English. They are perfectly valid in Hiberno-English. Language is ever-evolving. Scottish-Gaelic and Irish were the same language a few hundred years ago, but they have evolved into different languages. In the same respect, the English language that is spoken in Ireland today is distinct enough to at least be considered it's own dialect. So while certain nuances of Hiberno-English may not meet the grammatic standards of British-English, they are still fine as phrases of Hiberno-English.

drakshug

The problem is not the use of dialect. The problem is the inability to use standard English and the inability to understand when to code-switch.
There are many circles of English but there is a standard that allows users of those diverging forms of English to communicate.
I speak Scots at home but can code switch to standard English in public. Many can't speak their own dialect properly or English and let's not speak of the standards of Irish.
If you are going to do anything then strive to do it well. Unfortunately what is classed as an Irish or scots dialect is nowhere near the genuine article but just a bastardized version of English. I can honestly say that the users of seen rather than saw I have talked to, use almost no words and other elements that can be classed as dialect. Indeed they cannot understand the difference whilst attempting standard English.
Code switching is essential in our international world.

dlofnep

drakshug wrote: »

Unfortunately what is classed as an Irish or scots dialect is nowhere near the genuine article but just a bastardized version of English.

It's a dialect of English, not bastardized English. Such a term carries negative connotations. It's a language change, that has morphed over 100's of years through a bilingual state. There is nothing that can change that.

drakshug wrote: »

I can honestly say that the users of seen rather than saw I have talked to, use almost no words and other elements that can be classed as dialect. Indeed they cannot understand the difference whilst attempting standard English.

It is a dialect and is recognised as such around the world by linguists.

drakshug

Dlofnep, you selectively read the post. I was not denigrating the dialect. I was saying that a lot of what people think is dialect is actually poor English. You'll find pure Hiberno-English surviving in the country areas just like lowland scots survives in the country areas. In the cities it is usually a diluted, bastardized English. Dialects are being lost as the world gets smaller. If you had taken my whole post into account you'll have seen that I have not noticed many words etc in those examples of batardized English that would class it as dialect. Is an Irish dialect taught formally in Irish schools? Is there an Irish gov department to promote and protect it?
I am not denying Hiberno-Irish but a dialect has it's own rules too. Using a few words and forms does not make one speak in dialect.
By the way, bastardization is a term used in linguistics. What many speak here is neither English nor Hiberno-English.
Maybe it should be called skanger.

holystungun9

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Horrid, abysmal, atrocious, horrific, horrible e.t.c....

As far as I know, "I saw" is the simple past tense and "I have seen" would be the present perfect tense and "I had seen" would be the past perfect tense.

Wow, you don't really live up to your name I'm afraid................crap....I ain't haven't given mine much thought either.:(

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

I explained what it has to do with it. We speak Hiberno-English. Not British-English. We say things slightly differently. To be annoyed with people for speaking their own dialect of English is silly.



They are wrong in British-English. They are perfectly valid in Hiberno-English. Language is ever-evolving. Scottish-Gaelic and Irish were the same language a few hundred years ago, but they have evolved into different languages. In the same respect, the English language that is spoken in Ireland today is distinct enough to at least be considered it's own dialect. So while certain nuances of Hiberno-English may not meet the grammatic standards of British-English, they are still fine as phrases of Hiberno-English.

Off the wall.

The use and misuse of 'seen' and 'done' has nothing whatsoever to do with Hiberno-English.

It's bad grammar, shows the user to be unable to figure out the correct usage,and almost certainly puts the proponent and serial user in a lower socio economic class.

Yakuza

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Off the wall.

The use and misuse of 'seen' and 'done' has nothing whatsoever to do with Hiberno-English.

It's bad grammar, shows the user to be unable to figure out the correct usage,and almost certainly puts the proponent and serial user in a lower socio economic class.

Absolutely spot on, it's nothing more than ropey grammar. Watch some football pundits on the BBC, or some of the oiks that get arrested on these Road Wars-style programs, or some of the spiv tradesmen on Watchdog and you'll come across plenty of examples of "I seen" and "I done" (and more), and they aren't speaking Hiberno-English.

Osgoodisgood

I've had to do the unthinkable and start watching the ITV World Cup coverage. Ray Houghton's command of the language make listening impossible without throwing shoes, children and other handy objects at the telly.

Hiberno-English is being used as a handy get-out-of-jail card for any poor or lazy grammar. "Youse", "He done that", and "yizzers" are just wrong and should never be acceptable to any culture looking to interact with dignity with the rest of the English speaking world.

FlutterinBantam

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65520695&postcount=1

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055322183&highlight=Houghton

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055422496&highlight=Houghton

Way ahead of you horse, you are not alone.

Fcuking drives the nads clean out of my ballbag does that guy, Mr Houghton.

Osgoodisgood

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Way ahead of you horse, you are not alone.

Fcuking drives the nads clean out of my ballbag does that guy, Mr Houghton.

I read through those threads with interest. Very entertaining. I wonder if the average boardsie would be less sympathetic to RH's questionable grammatical talents if he wasn't responsible for "those" two great footballing moments. We'll never know.

Personally, I just can't buy the, "he's a footballer, do you expect him to be able to speak properly too?" argument. Because, yes, I do. I expect anyone paid by the national broadcaster to offer stimulating audio to complement the video, to be able to communicate intelligently in English in a manner that doesn't result in me eating my own fist.

FlutterinBantam

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

I read through those threads with interest. Very entertaining. I wonder if the average boardsie would be less sympathetic to RH's questionable grammatical talents if he wasn't responsible for "those" two great footballing moments. We'll never know.

Personally, I just can't buy the, "he's a footballer, do you expect him to be able to speak properly too?" argument. Because, yes, I do. I expect anyone paid by the national broadcaster to offer stimulating audio to complement the video, to be able to communicate intelligently in English in a manner that doesn't result in me eating my own fist.

Peter, we would be in the minority here, of course you would get that response.

Me, and maybe you, would perhaps take the view:

#1.. the Guy is on National Tv

#2.. he is being payed fairly well.

#3.. Standards matter.


Therefore after the contract was signed and the first live session occurred, and to anyone with a modicum of grammatical sense Mr Houghton was a disaster, I would take the following action.

Call in Mr Houghton and give him a sheet of A4 which would say:

past tense of do is did

past tense of see is saw

It's not 'he should have went' it's 'he should have gone'

Surely someone out there gives a fcuk?


I certainly do.:mad:

Donkey Oaty

As a public service, could the previous two posters outline the ways in which "I seen" and "I saw" impairs understanding, insofar as it relates to football commentary?

FlutterinBantam

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

As a public service, could the previous two posters outline the ways in which "I seen" and "I saw" impairs understanding, insofar as it relates to football commentary?

Of course it doesn't impair understanding of a football commentary,however understanding a football commentary is only one aspect of broadcasting,and one would expect the National Public Service Broadcaster of an English speaking country to be able to provide broadcasters and pundits who are competent in the correct articulation of the language to those who pay for their existance.

If I genuinely want to listen to bad grammar, poor diction,staccato delivery and general bulldust I will tune in to 'Off the ball'

I don't contribute to their operation so I can't complain, I just use the option open to me, switch off.

However, I do contribute to the funding of RTE so therefore expect that they provide broadcasters who can speak correctly.

It's that simple;)

Yakuza

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Me I, and maybe you, would perhaps take the view:

#1.. the Guy is on National Tv.

#2.. he is being payed paid (although I think payed might be a valid US spelling variant) fairly well.

#3.. Standards matter.

Sorry Flutt, I couldn't resist

FlutterinBantam

Yakuza wrote: »

Sorry Flutt, I couldn't resist

that's ok:D

I'll take a hit on that one.

Osgoodisgood

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

As a public service, could the previous two posters outline the ways in which "I seen" and "I saw" impairs understanding, insofar as it relates to football commentary?

As a public service? Certainly.

"I seen" is not English. It may mean something in some other language but it means nothing in my native language. Now, it just so happens that I have a limited understanding of several other tongues and I recognise, from my rudimentary Skanger, that Mr Houghton is attempting to communicate with the fee paying audience using a combination of English and Skanger.

When I have no other option than to decipher this hybrid I have to break down each sentence, replacing each non-English word with an English option that would seem to fit the structure and context most appropriately and then replay it back in my head looking to deduce the original message that our stumpy little pal was trying to convey. All this takes time.

It would be just so much easier if he could limit himself to English in the future and this linguistic mess could be avoided entirely.

Innit?

FlutterinBantam

What has me beaten into a cocked hat is that Mr Houghton is very articulate and effusive until he comes to the tenses.Generally is word perfect in everything else!

Cannot figure that out.

lufties

Benny Lava wrote: »

Maybe this has always been the case but it appears that more and more people are abandoning proper grammar in favour of these horrid phrases.

SO many people are saying "I seen" instead of "I saw" and "I done" instead of "I did".

Has anyone else noticed an increase?

I've noticed it a lot on this site, if i said 'I seen that' in front of any of my older family members or friends they'd certainly cringe. Its awful grammar, I think the moderators should have some sort of grammar moderation. :mad: super annoying.