Eircom won't fix line fault because we're not their customer

eth0_

My parents are with TalkTalk for broadband and phone (NEVER use this company, they are completely inept and treat their customers with utter disdain).

They are paying for 3Mb DSL but they've only been getting 1.2Mb/sec down and 0.20Mb/s up. The attenuation on the downstream is 63.5Db (unacceptable!) and 31.5Db upstream (not amazing).

After two weeks of being told nonsense like "you must have a cordless phone in the house" and "the wifi on your laptop must be faulty" (?!?!?) they finally sent an Eircom engineer our. He came out today and was told he'd been sent here because we'd reported we had no dial tone!

I explained to him that there is some sort of fault on our line and he point blank refused to investigate, stating that although TalkTalk rent the line from the exchange to our house from Eircom, Eircom are NOT RESPONSIBLE for maintenance, and TalkTalk (and the other providers) have no phone line engineers.

Essentially what he was saying was, you're stuck with a crap DSL service unless you move back to Eircom because we won't be fixing the problem.

In fairness to the guy he did give us a new filter which has boosted the downstream speed slightly to 1.4Mb but the upload is still terrible. It's literally impossible to use stuff like Skype video chat, and uploading photos or anything to websites or over MSN is just pointless as it is so slow.

Can anyone offer any suggestions?

jor el

This happens quite a lot, and essentially, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

eth0_ wrote: »

I explained to him that there is some sort of fault on our line and he point blank refused to investigate, stating that although TalkTalk rent the line from the exchange to our house from Eircom, Eircom are NOT RESPONSIBLE for maintenance, and TalkTalk (and the other providers) have no phone line engineers.

The bolded bit is a lie. eircom are responsible for all line maintenance, because they own all the lines and get all the line rental, regardless of who you pay it to. If you got his name, you should submit a complaint about him to eircom and Talktalk, and if that fails, submit it to Comreg (for whatever good it will do). Comreg should at least be able to confirm that it is eircom's responsibility to fix line problems.

The next problem arises from the fact that eircom will not investigate DSL or other non-voice related problems. So, even if you get them to admit liability, they won't do anything for you.

If you want anything done, you're going to have to convince them that there is a voice problem. Rustling a packet of Tayto in front of the phone while talking to the support techs has been known to work for some people. Say it's intermittent when anyone comes around to check, and you might get something done. It all hinges on getting eircom to actually do something though, which they have a tendency to shrug off when dealing with customers of their competitors/resellers.

casiof91w

talk talk misreported the fault they put in the wrong details when reporting the fault so the engineer refusing to deal with your fault is not uncommon....if you feel that talk talk are not looking after your complaint correctly you demand to speak to a manager and not get off the phone until you get a manager and their direct number and their email address then watch how quickly your issue is resolved...

eth0_

In fairness to the Eircom guy, he said this misreporting happens on a daily basis because the tech support guys in the DSL companies know Eircom won't go out if they report 'slow broadband speeds'.

eth0_

jor el wrote: »

The bolded bit is a lie. eircom are responsible for all line maintenance, because they own all the lines and get all the line rental, regardless of who you pay it to.

Just to clarify, he was talking about broadband not PSTN stuff. He said if there was a problem with voice then he would fix it.

It seems utterly insane that Eircom have an obligation to fix voice problems but not broadband.

casiof91w

if you are troubleshooting someones broadband problems and you determine the setup or equipment is not the issue you have two options to log a line fault or a broadband fault........this is a bit of a dodgy area where i work we need to log a broadband fault let it be rejected due to a faulty telephone line copy the reference number into the line fault ticket so that when a phone line engineer receives the report he/she looks after the fault rather than arriving out to a house and playing stupid like they did in this case.....logging a broandband fault an engineer will go to the local exchange and prove that the broadband is working there and if its not fix it

casiof91w

eth0_ wrote: »

In fairness to the Eircom guy, he said this misreporting happens on a daily basis because the tech support guys in the DSL companies know Eircom won't go out if they report 'slow broadband speeds'.

I use an eircom system and we have a facility to log slow broadband speeds

eth0_

casiof91w wrote: »

logging a broandband fault an engineer will go to the local exchange and prove that the broadband is working there and if its not fix it

This guy said all he's obliged to do is plug a DSL modem into our line at the exchange, and if it syncs then the line is ok. He said speed is "nothing to do with us".

Totally bizarre.

casiof91w

hes right in what he is saying if they are able to prove your broadband is syncing in the exchange that is their job done...so the slow speed is your isp's issue......they can test your line and see what the max speed of your line is also they can test your line and see noise margins on the line and also the distance you are from the exchange and from that modify your broadband profile so you are receiving the best speed possible....it shouldnt be a hard thing to do but in your case its not being done so i would defo get speaking to a manager and it should be looked after correctly

eth0_

Going to email their CEO etc today. But tbh I don't see what they can do to increase the line speed when the Eircom engineer said Eircom won't do any work on the line because we aren't their customer. Infuriating and confusing :-/

Stench Blossoms

eth0_ wrote: »

Essentially what he was saying was, you're stuck with a crap DSL service unless you move back to Eircom because we won't be fixing the problem.

Even if you move back to Eircom they generally don't upgrade the line unless there is a voice problem.

jor el

eth0_ wrote: »

This guy said all he's obliged to do is plug a DSL modem into our line at the exchange, and if it syncs then the line is ok. He said speed is "nothing to do with us".

Totally bizarre.

Even if you were an eircom customer, they wouldn't do anything about speed issues. eircom's USO (set down by Comreg, I believe) requires a line that is capable of voice, fax and data up to 28.8kbps dial up. Nothing more than that, and they never do anything about poor DSL quality.

The only people who have had success are those who fake a voice problem, and then something gets done that also happens to fix the DSL issue.

To rule out everything in the house, you should disconnect all phones or extension chords, connect only the modem, using no filter/splitter, to the main phone socket and then check the line stats. If it's still bad, then the problem is not in the house wiring, or interference, and is something to do with eircom's line. Maybe you've done this already, but it would at least indicate if you should spend any more time hunting eircom on it or not.

casiof91w

eth0_ wrote: »

Going to email their CEO etc today. But tbh I don't see what they can do to increase the line speed when the Eircom engineer said Eircom won't do any work on the line because we aren't their customer. Infuriating and confusing :-/

No point in emailing the ceo, a ceo of a company has hired a customer care manager to look after issues like this so your mail will not be seen by him or her....get on the phone get the names of the managers in there kick up a fuss demand to speak to them dont accept a call back dont get off the line till your speaking to someone in charge and your problem will be dealt with

lmimmfn

had a crap line for a year( 3Meg download 58kilobit upload lmao ), with UTV, but Eircon didnt care less and would consistently say it passes all line tests, loged 20-30 calls on the issue and gave up eventually and moved house

dub45

The high attenuation would suggest that they are far from the exchange is that the case?

jaws104

I had a similar problem with my line, high attenuation, frequent drop outs etc. I got nowhere with my isp UTV (phone & broadband). " The logs show nothing"

It's a few years back now but IIRC I eventually got Eircom to put me through to their sub-contractors (who i had to pay to come out) who do installations.

The line showed noise at the point it entered the house and i scanned & emailed a copy of engineers report to eircom. A week later eircom dude came out and put a new phone line to the house and problem solved

Only took two years to get it sorted:rolleyes:

casiof91w

dub45 wrote: »

The high attenuation would suggest that they are far from the exchange is that the case?

Attenuation is loss of power that occurs on the copper pair over distance.

The following table shows the relationship between downstream attenuation and potential connection speed on a low noise line:

Attenuation.............Approximate Line Length............Potential Connection Speed
32db...................................2.3km.....................................16000kbps
35db...................................2.5km.....................................14500kbps
40db...................................2.9km.....................................11800kbps
45db...................................3.2km.......................................8500kbps
50db...................................3.6km.......................................6500kbps
55db...................................4.0km.......................................4500kbps
60db...................................4.3km.......................................3200kbps
65db...................................4.7km.......................................2000kbps

Cabaal

casiof91w wrote: »

Attenuation is loss of power that occurs on the copper pair over distance.

However is not entirely a reflection of "line length", high attenuation can also be caused by line interference, poor quality etc

Xcellor

The only way you will get a fix if its a line fault is to report a voice related error. Claim intermittant crackling or tapping on the line. Say that it happens when its raining/windy/sunny... They will need to send someone up the poll to have a look... Worth a try.

conor.hogan.2

These companies use Eircoms lines

They undercut Eircom in price (They pay rental but do not have to maintain anything)

and people expect Eircom to treat them above their own customers?

Zith

Cabaal wrote: »

However is not entirely a reflection of "line length", high attenuation can also be caused by line interference, poor quality etc

This is interesting. Fill in the speed, attenuation and margin then hit the button to get an estimated maximum speed. More interesting than those ones with just attenuation.

http://www2.farina1.com/adsl/

For example my 1024 line with 63 attenuation and 21 margin downlink says I may get about 2400 on a 3M package. Will see later today how accurate that is :cool:

conor.hogan.2

how do you test attenuation?

Cabaal

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

These companies use Eircoms lines

They undercut Eircom in price (They pay rental but do not have to maintain anything)

and people expect Eircom to treat them above their own customers?

You pay them line rental which goes DIRECTLY to Eircom, as such you expect to be treated the same as eircom customers

The problem happens when Eircom won't assist you unless your an eircom customer, this is anti-competitive as eircom own the last mile and the exchange equipment so its their job to fix other ISP's faults on the bit-stream products

Its not the job of Vodafone etc to maintain the phone line thats what the line rental to eircom is for.

Zith

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

how do you test attenuation?

The stats on your DSL router should have it. For eircom go to 192.168.1.254 to log into your router.

conor.hogan.2

Eircom get less money - Eircom will look after people who actually are their customers.

Common sense, not anti competitive. Any company can lay down their own cable or whatever if they choose to. Then they maintain and do magical wonderful things with that cable, until then they don't really get to complain.

Line Attenuation (Down/Up): 19 dB /11 dB - good, bad or indifferent?

dub45

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Eircom get less money - Eircom will look after people who actually are their customers.

Common sense, not anti competitive. Any company can lay down their own cable or whatever if they choose to. Then they maintain and do magical wonderful things with that cable, until then they don't really get to complain.

Line Attenuation (Down/Up): 19 dB /11 dB - good, bad or indifferent?

It is easy to make wild claims about Eircom in these cases. And it is also easy for isps to blame Eircom on everything. (UTV used to be past masters at this - at one stage they blamed Eircom for a billing issue I had with them!!!)

As pointed out earlier rightly or wrongly (and it is obviously wrongly!) Eircom are under no obligation to attempt to improve line quality either for their own customers or anyone else's if the line meets basic conditions.

Given the importance of bb now to most people it is long past time that Comreg introduced a new standard for line quality which reflects the changes that have taken place over the years.

A few months ago I had a fault on the line and I reported it to Smart and there was an Eircom guy at the door the next morning - I couldnt believe it.
Smart told me that there were new procedures in place and that the Eircom service had improved quite a bit.

As regards the attenuation the lower the better.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/lowSNR.htm

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/lowSNR.htmhttp://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/lowSNR.htmhttp://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/lowSNR.htm

dub45

Cabaal wrote: »

You pay them line rental which goes DIRECTLY to Eircom, as such you expect to be treated the same as eircom customers

The problem happens when Eircom won't assist you unless your an eircom customer, this is anti-competitive as eircom own the last mile and the exchange equipment so its their job to fix other ISP's faults on the bit-stream products

Its not the job of Vodafone etc to maintain the phone line thats what the line rental to eircom is for.

Yes but there is no real evidence in this case as to what the problem is. The op makes a statement that the high attenuation is 'unacceptable' - thats nonsense given that we dont know the line stats the distance from the exchange or basically anything except the wild claims from the op.

It helps to start with basics such as stats and distance from the exchange (also state of internal wiring) then we can get an idea of exactly what the problem might be. After all the line could be the best in the world and still have a very high attenuation figure because of the distance from the exchange.

10belowzero

as an eircom tech - we try to facilitate ALL CUSTOMER'S - no matter who their isp is - we are not told who the customers isp is , unless the cust tell's us .we are very very strictly governed by comreg , more so than eircom , as too what we can do or even say to olo customers .
we are not allowed to do any internal installation or maintenance work on the cpe ( cust prem equip ) side of our 1m ( master sockets) either for eircom customers or any other telco customer .this was as a result of the access network being opened up by comreg .breach's of the regulatory frame work , can lead to criminal charges , fine's of 5,000 euro's and disiplinary action being levied against the tech . hope this clarify's the situation some what .

10belowzero

the master socket allow's for the line to be terminated , at a single point , with provision made on the front panel part , that screw's off , for the cust's , extn's , alarm's etc to be connected too , if the internal wiring has not been changed or tampered with , by screwing off the front panel of socket , all extn's etc should automatically be disconected , the modem or phone should then be pluged in to the internal modular jack on the socket , also a perfect line test , does not mean that a line is indeed perfect or next to near it , if an intermittent fault is present on the line . hope this is of help

conor.hogan.2

Eircom do not have to ''fix'' your line, of course, but if you are their customer they tend to come out or try to help you.

Common sense really.

lucernarian

10belowzero wrote: »

as an eircom tech - we try to facilitate ALL CUSTOMER'S - no matter who their isp is - we are not told who the customers isp is , unless the cust tell's us .we are very very strictly governed by comreg , more so than eircom , as too what we can do or even say to olo customers .
we are not allowed to do any internal installation or maintenance work on the cpe ( cust prem equip ) side of our 1m ( master sockets) either for eircom customers or any other telco customer .this was as a result of the access network being opened up by comreg .breach's of the regulatory frame work , can lead to criminal charges , fine's of 5,000 euro's and disiplinary action being levied against the tech . hope this clarify's the situation some what .

I understood that eircom carried out work on internal wiring if they were paid a hefty sum for the priviledge? Something like €58 per hour's labour if I remember correctly.

cabaal wrote:

casiof91w wrote:

Attenuation is loss of power that occurs on the copper pair over distance.

However is not entirely a reflection of "line length", high attenuation can also be caused by line interference, poor quality etc

Attenuation is simply the measure of resistance except for a particular frequency of AC signal. In the case of DSL, it's often 300 or 400kHz. Interference has nothing to do with the resistance of a wire towards a DSL signal. Poor quality can cause attenuation problems in terms of bad joins or bridge taps (even long phone line extensions for other phones, wired in parallel act as bridge tap).

casiof91w wrote:

Attenuation is loss of power that occurs on the copper pair over distance.

The following table shows the relationship between downstream attenuation and potential connection speed on a low noise line:

Attenuation.............Approximate Line Length............Potential Connection Speed
32db...................................2.3km.....................................16000kbps
35db...................................2.5km.....................................14500kbps
40db...................................2.9km.....................................11800kbps
45db...................................3.2km.......................................8500kbps
50db...................................3.6km.......................................6500kbps
55db...................................4.0km.......................................4500kbps
60db...................................4.3km.......................................3200kbps
65db...................................4.7km.......................................2000kbps

Those numbers are outrageously optimistic and I would wonder whether low noise conditions like that even exist in the wild. Some other frequent posters here may know that I'm not one to underestimate maximum possible speeds on a phone line. Also, the figures are incorrect based on what eircom go by for their most commonly used thickness of cable. 60dB = 5km. The highest speed I've ever seen on boards above 58dB was 2 mbps and there's also a recent thread where someone had 4 mbps on ADSL2+ at 55dB and was suffering disconnects at that.

eth0 wrote:

They are paying for 3Mb DSL but they've only been getting 1.2Mb/sec down and 0.20Mb/s up. The attenuation on the downstream is 63.5Db (unacceptable!) and 31.5Db upstream (not amazing).

Sounds like you were dealing with a bit of a spanner in TalkTalk. I'm suprised that the engineer suggested that moving back to eircom would help, as I doubt they would do anything even if you were an eircom customer.

Did you get those speed results from a speed testing website or the router homepage?

When an ADSL1 connection reports attenuation, it has a limit of reporting up to 63.5 downstream and 31.5dB upstream. So it's more likely that your line is worse than that again.

I remember you posting on one of the regional boards forums, so I'll add that if the line is in the region I remember, it is known within eircom that quite a significant amount of lines there are over 3km long and they carried out work by opening a couple of exchanges over the last few years to help matters. But it only made a difference in some smaller areas. Did the eircom linesman mention how long your line was?

You could try ordering a new line but that may suffer from similar issues. Perhaps Digiweb Metro would be a better bet?

Sponge Bob

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Those numbers are outrageously optimistic and I would wonder whether low noise conditions like that even exist in the wild. Some other frequent posters here may know that I'm not one to underestimate maximum possible speeds on a phone line. Also, the figures are incorrect based on what eircom go by for their most commonly used thickness of cable. 60dB = 5km. The highest speed I've ever seen on boards above 58dB was 2 mbps and there's also a recent thread where someone had 4 mbps on ADSL2+ at 55dB and was suffering disconnects at that.

I suppose the answer there is that country people are better off than city people in this way.

Underground lines are normally 0.4mm core diameter AWG 23 I think while overhead lines are 0.5mm core diameter AWG24 or SWG25.

pi r square that and you see a 0.5mm has 60% more copper in it than a 0.4 does and a sizeable uplift in carrying capacity. Many lines are a mixture of both.

Sponge Bob

Actually make that 26AWG underground, 0.4mm and 24AWG or 23AWG overground , 0.5mm. Apart from its much larger cross section an overground cable has lower resistance too.

These neat DSL units fits on a POLE if any eircom staff are reading !!!!!!!

http://www.godigital.com/solutions/010265_rB.pdf
http://www.godigital.com/solutions/010268_rB.pdf

If it is sending 8 mbits over OVERGROUND 24AWG it will reach 3.4km but over the thinner underground cable only 2.7km

At entry level 1.5mbits it will reach nearly 3 miles underground but nearer 4 miles overground.

10belowzero

as far as i'm aware , eircom are precluded by comreg from using dsl and isdn repeaters ,and they work perfectly as we field trialed several , but it was seen as eircom extending their network , which is not allowed by the regulatory framework .a rough rule of thumb on attenuation is about 10 db per km , not forgetting 1 km in comm's term's do's not equal km's by road route . the equipment suppliers cover their their transmission output to a 3 km distance from the exchange , so within 3kms you shoult have prob's , from 3km to 6km about 70/80 % of dsl output , the real problem's start from 6kms - it can at time seem like the dsl signal fell off the side of a cliff , yet have seen solid 2mb at 9km out .
going by the book dsl cutoff point is 56 db , the vast majority of the network is 0.5 - u.g and o/h ,tnk's to telecom eireann not taking the cheap option and using cheaper aluminium cable , which bt and other national providers did at the time,which later on cost billion's to replace .
etho did not say if the tech charged him a call out charge .
as i said eircom can refer you to a licenced contractor ,who will maintain or provide internal extn's / networks , if they charge 58 euro's an hour , you don't have to use them , and it is not eircom technician's that carry out this work, other olo's can employ contractor's or their own technician's to provide these service's , but seem unwilling to do so .
with the mention of telecomm eireann , TE were one of the first comm's company's in the world to get a basic b/band up and running , even had basic tv /ip platform working in 1989 , the board ordered the initial 30m punt's of equipment installed by june of 1990 , which was done ,and if my memory serves me right comreg ordered it all removed as it was deemed an uncompetitive advantage , anyhoo i digress , free b/band for all when i'm teashop

10belowzero

forgot to say , that when we clear / resolve a fault we do so to '' root cause '' , because outside the fact , that the company is fined by comreg for repeat fault's ,we have to explain to our flm (front line manager ) why a fault has repeated , what work was done , how fault was investigated etc and what measure's are required , to make sure it do't repeat .

my granny used to say every job is easy , as long as your not doing it .

Sponge Bob

10belowzero wrote: »

as far as i'm aware , eircom are precluded by comreg from using dsl and isdn repeaters ,and they work perfectly as we field trialed several , but it was seen as eircom extending their network , which is not allowed by the regulatory framework

I don't think so. But there would have to be a cost recoupment component to the pricing and I suspect eircom don't want to go there in their pricing.

If you live 4 miles from the exchange and want 8 mbits then eircom are entitled to charge extra for it _up to a point_ because they installed extra gear. The repeaters work and are down to €300 per port on 8 ways nowadays meaning eircom can recover the cost on the upsell rather quickly.

3g is not up to it, never will be in rural areas.

it can at time seem like the dsl signal fell off the side of a cliff , yet have seen solid 2mb at 9km out .

overhead I bet ....or are you a saying lot of underground plant is 0.5mm too ??

Solair

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Eircom get less money - Eircom will look after people who actually are their customers.

Common sense, not anti competitive. Any company can lay down their own cable or whatever if they choose to. Then they maintain and do magical wonderful things with that cable, until then they don't really get to complain.

Line Attenuation (Down/Up): 19 dB /11 dB - good, bad or indifferent?

Eircom are obliged, under the terms of their telecommunications operator license, to provide other operators with access to their local network. They get paid line rental (the highest in the world) to provide maintenence service.

If eircom is treating customers badly, the regulator and competition authority needs to investigate. There may be grounds to split eircom into retail & infrastructure companies.

It's totally unacceptable for them to give an end user a response like this and it is abuse of their monopoly position.

The OP should contact comreg, they need to be aware of incidents like this.

10belowzero

the majority of the ug is 0.5 , the problem arise where the 0.3/0.4 ,was used for entire route's or section's , or used to replace damaged sections , most of these cables where installed over a 2 year period in the 80's . when we talk of ngb upgrades in the exch's , we mean upgrading the exch power and back up's ,airconditioning , main frame and platform extns etc and all the logistic's that go with it.as far as i know , 8mb will be basic entry rate on ngb in the interim and that will rise to ? . even we don't know ,it's been 6 months since stt took over ,the outcome of talk's between all the stakeholders , comreg,stt . eamon ryan and the goverment , are still not known , we are hoping that a deal that suits everyone can be done , if this happen's , i can't see why we coul't be as a country, be leading the world with b/band inside 1/2 years at least .

10belowzero

Quote:
Originally Posted by conor.hogan.2 View Post
Eircom get less money - Eircom will look after people who actually are their customers.

Common sense, not anti competitive. Any company can lay down their own cable or whatever if they choose to. Then they maintain and do magical wonderful things with that cable, until then they don't really get to complain.

Line Attenuation (Down/Up): 19 dB /11 dB - good, bad or indifferent?

your stats are very good , i'm on 7mb with 37db dn ,

Solair

Any company can't just lay their own wires, eircom and UPC (or a few minor remaining independent cable cos) are the only operators licensed to roll out last mile infrastructure.

Eircom also inherited a lastmile infrastructure built by Telecom Eireann and P&T which were legal monopolies, state owned and heavily subsidised.

That puts eircom in a rather unique position and it can't really be compared to other operators and either had to be split or properly regulated to provide other companies with access.

ninjasurfer1

Solair wrote: »

Eircom also inherited a lastmile infrastructure built by Telecom Eireann and P&T which were legal monopolies, state owned and heavily subsidised.

Not inherited, bought.
Was this unique standing in the market not factored into the sale price of Telecom Eireann which the Govt received when it was sold?
If so, as a now private company, they can hardly be blamed for trying to maximise this to their advantage.

vinrouge

Would like to know what the different terminals are for on an Eircom Master Socket.

I assume L1 and L2 at back of socket are for the incoming two wires

What are S1 and S2 at back of socket for.

What are S1 and S2 at front of socket for, (extensions?)

What are L1 and L2 at front of socket for?

I am using CAT 5 wire, do I use a single strand onto each terminal

All help appreciated

Vinrouge

Bohrio

There is no need to digg out a two year old thread for this. Just open a new one.

A simple search in google will bring back what you need.

Eircom socket and then let the auto populate do its job