Why no Greek style unrest

sinnerboy

I don't mean why are YOU not on the street protesting . I mean why do you think lots of Irish people are not violently protesting Greek style . Or like the UK anti poll tax demo's in the 80's . For the sake of clarity I wish to state I am relieved that is is not happening . Absolutely no good would come of it .

But why no Irish rent a mob do you suppose ?

Permabear

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maninasia

As the fella said, there are too many people who are doing well out of the status quo to change it, they haven't really taken a real hit at all, the public workers, social welfare recipients...it's in their interests (as long as possible) to resist major change.

dissed doc

maninasia wrote: »

As the fella said, there are too many people who are doing well out of the status quo to change it, they haven't really taken a real hit at all, the public workers, social welfare recipients...it's in their interests (as long as possible) to resist major change.

Speak for yourself. I'm a doctor here (and obviously leaving imminently). 23% reduction in after tax income since last year (not overtime reductions) and pay around 48% of my gross salary on taxes and levies.

On top of that, with a 20% reduction in the junior doctor workforce coming in july, it will mean that already stretched services will see an increase in expected workload by the remaining doctors.

Further to that, we already had one of the lowest numbers of doctors per population in the OECD before these new changes came in.

ei.sdraob

dissed doc wrote: »

Speak for yourself. I'm a doctor here (and obviously leaving imminently). 23% reduction in after tax income since last year (not overtime reductions) and pay around 48% of my gross salary on taxes and levies.

On top of that, with a 20% reduction in the junior doctor workforce coming in july, it will mean that already stretched services will see an increase in expected workload by the remaining doctors.

Further to that, we already had one of the lowest numbers of doctors per population in the OECD before these new changes came in.

I wonder how will this "knowledge economy" utopia is build

when anyone who has plenty skills and education like guy/girl above is getting the **** out


anyone who is paying little tax or no tax (2/3rds of the workforce) should really be worried when people like the guy above start to leave.
the same people who now get half or more of their earnings taken away to pay for your entitlements

Eventually, Socialists run out of other peoples' money [to spend]

:P

Permabear

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The_Honeybadger

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't think it was just the money he was complaining about to be fair, he was responding to claims that pay cuts in the PS were merely cosmetic, he claims to be down 23% in take home pay (I don't believe this figure is correct) which is more than cosmetic. I think he is more worried about how working conditions in the Health Service are about to change as the system comes under more pressure from cuts. I don't think I'd fancy going to work every morning in a system like that.

granturismo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Anti public sector bias again. Back on topic - both the public and private sector in Greece get crap wages. They may get paid for 2 extra months per annum and some private and public sector can retire at 55, but their actual take home salary is relatively low.

Greece traditionally has a more militant population, combined with low wages, explains why their protests get so violent - also their anacharists use the demos for their own purposes which adds to the violence.

Nehaxak

I blame the GAA for the lack of protests due to instilling or entrenching attitudes for one's own county rather than the country as a whole.
Case in point, I really couldn't care less what happens outside of Dublin. I should, but I don't. Fickle maybe but there ye go.

..but seriously...
I am disillusioned by the lack of leadership, bravery and ability from ANY political party in Ireland.

I have to have a reason to protest and I want strong unbiased leadership to inspire me to protest - that what I am protesting for will be worth it, that it has meaning, that it's not just a load of tree hugging anarchist hippies or communists at the protest march looking for political gain, or worse, with no direction at all other than protesting just for the sake of it and to somehow massage their own ego.

Give me a real reason to protest with a proper alternative solution to what I am protesting against, without communists and/or anarchists shouting their mouths off just for the sake of it, and I will be there.

Otherwise I'll just sit in and watch the telly and leave the country to rot with the government they themselves voted in - sure they made their choice, I didn't vote for them, why should I now bother to protest against the very government I never voted in when the democratic wishes of the majority in the country did vote for them ? Not my fault so why should I bother ?

The people of the country, in a rather large majority, voted in the very government who are sitting at the helm of the very destruction of our country. You (the vast majority of the people of Ireland) voted in your own destruction, learn to live with the choice you made and hope FF/Greens have at least one person with some brains among them that can drag the country through debatedly it's biggest challenge since the establishment of the Republic itself.

Yours, Mr Apathetic, meh and stuff...

murphaph

dissed doc wrote: »

Further to that, we already had one of the lowest numbers of doctors per population in the OECD before these new changes came in.

It'll be even lower when all the rats have jumped ship

The likes of doctors etc. that cost a fortune to train should be forced to work for a minimum of 15 years or something in the state. It's not on that someone can get trained in Ireland then p!ss off to the states to clean up.

dissed doc

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And likewise, our public transport network is significantly superior to that available to people in rural Tibet - and it's also entirely irrelevant to this argument.

I was responding to the suggestion that the public service cuts and public-only tax/levies has had no a real impact and significant drop in salaries and is merely "cosmetic".

The flip side, is that the HSE is cutting 20% of the workforce from July - there are no jobs for many doctors to go to.

Do you think I want to leave my own country? After 18 months of told how lazy I am by the media and many on these forums, I still would rather stay, but there is not one single job to apply for. I have a choice of dole here or work abroad. Many other doctors are in the same position - and it's not like there are huge numbers of non-Irish/non-EU doctors queing up to come here, as applications for jobs were already < 50% down in the last 6 months before the HSE number reductions from this July.

danbohan

donegalfella wrote: »

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never knew you were such a fan of Cuba donegalfella , next thing you will become a complete leftie maybe even a shinner!

Permabear

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danbohan

dissed doc wrote: »

And likewise, our public transport network is significantly superior to that available to people in rural Tibet - and it's also entirely irrelevant to this argument.

I was responding to the suggestion that the public service cuts and public-only tax/levies has had no a real impact and significant drop in salaries and is merely "cosmetic".

The flip side, is that the HSE is cutting 20% of the workforce from July - there are no jobs for many doctors to go to.

Do you think I want to leave my own country? After 18 months of told how lazy I am by the media and many on these forums, I still would rather stay, but there is not one single job to apply for. I have a choice of dole here or work abroad. Many other doctors are in the same position - and it's not like there are huge numbers of non-Irish/non-EU doctors queing up to come here, as applications for jobs were already < 50% down in the last 6 months before the HSE number reductions from this July.

another example of the brain drain from this country , best of luck to you wherever you go , the brighest the most ambitious will leave , the handout merchants and the ''gimmee'' public servants in secure positions they are not remotely qualified to do shall remain

Amhran Nua

sinnerboy wrote: »

But why no Irish rent a mob do you suppose ?

There is an Irish rent-a-mob, its the SWP/PBP/etc and the shinners.

Which is exactly why nobody else goes near street protests.

In a funny way, they do a great job of keeping the population subdued.

rightwingdub

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There is an Irish rent-a-mob, its the SWP/PBP/etc and the shinners.

Which is exactly why nobody else goes near street protests.

In a funny way, they do a great job of keeping the population subdued.

I was at the protest outside the dail and a couple of weeks ago, I struggled to keep a straight face given all the silly rethoric that was coming from various speakers, these people like Brendan Ogle were to the left of Jack O'Connor for crying out loud. There were feck all people present also.:D

Taxipete29

dissed doc wrote: »

Speak for yourself. I'm a doctor here (and obviously leaving imminently). 23% reduction in after tax income since last year (not overtime reductions) and pay around 48% of my gross salary on taxes and levies.

On top of that, with a 20% reduction in the junior doctor workforce coming in july, it will mean that already stretched services will see an increase in expected workload by the remaining doctors.

Further to that, we already had one of the lowest numbers of doctors per population in the OECD before these new changes came in.

Did you ever think that some of your colleagues at the top of the food chain are getting paid just a little too much?? Ever think that if they reduced their salaries there might be more money for junior doctors?? Further to that, why dont you call for the removal of the god knows how many layers of middle management in the HSE that eats up how much of the budget???

The whole health service needs a wake-up call.

rightwingdub

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Did you ever think that some of your colleagues at the top of the food chain are getting paid just a little too much?? Ever think that if they reduced their salaries there might be more money for junior doctors?? Further to that, why dont you call for the removal of the god knows how many layers of middle management in the HSE that eats up how much of the budget???

The whole health service needs a wake-up call.

The health service needs to be privatised, statist healthcare doesn't work in Ireland and has never worked.

irishh_bob

rightwingdub wrote: »

I was at the protest outside the dail and a couple of weeks ago, I struggled to keep a straight face given all the silly rethoric that was coming from various speakers, these people like Brendan Ogle were to the left of Jack O'Connor for crying out loud. There were feck all people present also.:D

ah good ol brendan ogle , the far left union rep who insists on 80 k plus per year for his ESB workers

dissed doc

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Did you ever think that some of your colleagues at the top of the food chain are getting paid just a little too much?? Ever think that if they reduced their salaries there might be more money for junior doctors?? Further to that, why dont you call for the removal of the god knows how many layers of middle management in the HSE that eats up how much of the budget???

The whole health service needs a wake-up call.

Call for what? Junior doctors are all on 6 month temporary contracts from the moment they graduate to the moment they emigrate - renewable only by reinterview. There is no call for removing layers of management seeing as they are people that insist on making sure no junior doctors get the security to start causing trouble for them.

As regards consultants, the country struggles to attract anyone even with those salaries, and has around 1/2 the recommended quota's filled for most specialities.

There is a certain of money required to fund a fully functioning health service. It is considerably below our european colleagues e.g., France in simple as per GDP spending. Fair enough to make cuts during a recession but the consequences of e.g, having 1 ENT doctor instead of the 3 required for a certain population should be spelled out to people.

rightwingdub

irishh_bob wrote: »

ah good ol brendan ogle , the far left union rep who insists on 80 k plus per year for his ESB workers

Brendan Ogle believes in socialism for the masses and capitalism for himself and his employees, he was also slating Jack O'Connor, I seriously think Ogle needs a severe electric shock therapy to bring him back to reality.

Mister men

Irish people are lazy and cowardly. Sure it'll be fine.:rolleyes:

Amhran Nua

Mister men wrote: »

Irish people are lazy and cowardly. Sure it'll be fine.:rolleyes:

Nothing like a spot of bald racism to get your point across, eh?

rightwingdub

A lot of Irish people are complacent, thats true, we tolerate been ripped off and a lot of Irish people are willing to pay over the odds for property.

Taxipete29

dissed doc wrote: »

Call for what? Junior doctors are all on 6 month temporary contracts from the moment they graduate to the moment they emigrate - renewable only by reinterview. There is no call for removing layers of management seeing as they are people that insist on making sure no junior doctors get the security to start causing trouble for them.

As regards consultants, the country struggles to attract anyone even with those salaries, and has around 1/2 the recommended quota's filled for most specialities.

Well if you wont stand up for your own system how do you expect it to change. I think your excuse is a cop-out personally.

Your second statement is just ridiculous. Attract from where, do we not have people here capable of becoming consultants??

dissed doc

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Well if you wont stand up for your own system how do you expect it to change. I think your excuse is a cop-out personally.

Your second statement is just ridiculous. Attract from where, do we not have people here capable of becoming consultants??

How often do those in the private sector on short term contracts start causing trouble for their bosses? And with only one employer in the country? Doctors are human too. Let me see a computer programmer on a 6 month contract start striking first, and with there being only one employer in whole country available.

We have plenty of people trained and capable of becoming consultants - yet they invariably choose to leave. The people - the majority - you - need to decide with your politicians about what sort of health service you want.

ghost_ie

murphaph wrote: »

It'll be even lower when all the rats have jumped ship

The likes of doctors etc. that cost a fortune to train should be forced to work for a minimum of 15 years or something in the state. It's not on that someone can get trained in Ireland then p!ss off to the states to clean up.

Harney said today that there would be cuts to public health services next year and that 1500 jobs must go in the health service this year and next. She doesn't mean 1500 burocrats in the HSE - she means 1500 doctors, nurses and nurses aides per year for the next 2 years. Doctors and nurses who trained here would happily work here for much more than 15 years if they were given the chance to.

ghost_ie

ghost_ie wrote: »

Harney said today that there would be cuts to public health services next year and that 1500 jobs must go in the health service this year and next. She doesn't mean 1500 burocrats in the HSE - she means 1500 doctors, nurses and nurses aides per year for the next 2 years. Doctors and nurses who trained here would happily work here for much more than 15 years if they were given the chance to.

Why the emphasis on Doctor's/ nurses? What about Pharmacists, Dieticians, Physiotherapists, Occupational Therapists? 1500 jobs across the board is not a lot.

maninasia

dissed doc wrote: »

And likewise, our public transport network is significantly superior to that available to people in rural Tibet - and it's also entirely irrelevant to this argument.

I was responding to the suggestion that the public service cuts and public-only tax/levies has had no a real impact and significant drop in salaries and is merely "cosmetic".

The flip side, is that the HSE is cutting 20% of the workforce from July - there are no jobs for many doctors to go to.

Do you think I want to leave my own country? After 18 months of told how lazy I am by the media and many on these forums, I still would rather stay, but there is not one single job to apply for. I have a choice of dole here or work abroad. Many other doctors are in the same position - and it's not like there are huge numbers of non-Irish/non-EU doctors queing up to come here, as applications for jobs were already < 50% down in the last 6 months before the HSE number reductions from this July.

Doctors get a high wage, even junior ones, compared to average income. I don't see where the 23% cut is, maybe if you include overtime limits. GPs, senior doctors, consultants, all are on 100,000-300,000 Euro. You are leaving because you can't get a job, not because of pay. You can't get a job because wages are too high, tax income is too low. You also (most likely) got your fees paid for by the state, you don't have to work for 10 years to pay it off like in the states. If everybody took a wage cut and social welfare cut and accepted tax increases there would be money to hire more doctors.

You should see the problem is in the way pay and welfare is structured, the insiders versus outsiders. Now you are an outsider. You became an outsider because, like many Irish of all classes and income levels, you are unwilling to challenge the system. All you can hope for is that you can get your piece of the pie in the future. As you already explained, there is a need for more junior doctors and people on the ground, obviously the health service is top heavy but you will not challenge it. You are more interested in your own welfare rather than risk getting alienated or losing a fight, fair enough. I should qualify you is not aimed at 'you' only but at the solicitors, junior doctors, low level civil servants etc.

You should also admit, the problem in getting consultants to Ireland is definitely not pay (250,000 euro/yr, allowed private practice), rather it's due to a closed club and other issues, probably visa related. I know many excellent doctors in Asia who could provide the same level of care as consultants in Ireland at lower cost. They work hard, good English, great education level, no inflated expectations of worth. If I was the minister of health I'd fire everybody, change the pyramid to hire more junior doctors at slightly lower wage, double the number of consultants but at half pay. You might moan but at least you'll have a job and it will still pay much better than average. You'll be working in a better work environment with hope and fairness and efficiency. You'll be treated equally like the current 'god-like' consultants. Bring in the best people from all over the world. Provide a proper health service, rapid, efficient and accessible to all people of Ireland. Do what it's supposed to do, for patients of Ireland (says with a politicians flourish)!

maninasia

danbohan wrote: »

another example of the brain drain from this country , best of luck to you wherever you go , the brighest the most ambitious will leave , the handout merchants and the ''gimmee'' public servants in secure positions they are not remotely qualified to do shall remain

That's a sweeping statement to make, he's leaving because he can't get a job, like most Irish that live outside Ireland. I could pretty much include myself in there. By the time we spend enough time outside we might be the best and brightest though

3DataModem

Best of luck abroad... I split in Feb, and took my 30k pa in annual income tax with me.

maninasia

You are being disingeneous, Ireland's income tax rates are low compared to most countries, in fact that is one of the major reasons for current debt crisis.

ednwireland

ghost_ie wrote: »

Harney said today that there would be cuts to public health services next year and that 1500 jobs must go in the health service this year and next. She doesn't mean 1500 burocrats in the HSE - she means 1500 doctors, nurses and nurses aides per year for the next 2 years. Doctors and nurses who trained here would happily work here for much more than 15 years if they were given the chance to.

and therin lies the entire prob with the health services i said it many years when i used to contract into the nwhb, the first thing they cut is doctors and nurses, when a private company looks at the people that are overheads and not delivering direct services and cuts them first ( i went through 2 reorganisations in a large co. in the uk and beleive me if your middle management you are quaking )

let me tell you why
the managers in the health service know if they cut front line staff service will rapidly deteriorate to the point of the public protest the gov then allows them to hire front line staff AND more admin staff and the organisation gets more and more admin heavy, costs more and more to run and service deteriorates.
now i dont say this is a deliberate policy (it maybe but i hope no-one at the top has such a callous disregard for patients)
but it is a result of no regular sweep through of admin staff
(i'm using the health service as an example all gov services end up like that)

back OT no unrest i'm too busy working, the gov. were elected (whether i agreed or not the other lot werent proposing much fifferent in 2007 )
and what does it gain us - nothing
as to greece it has a long history of strong radical politics ( mainly communists i think ) who arent averse to been out on the streets and causing trouble, and its hot (how many protest on a wet evening compared to a sunny one)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irishh_bob

maninasia wrote: »

Doctors get a high wage, even junior ones, compared to average income. I don't see where the 23% cut is, maybe if you include overtime limits. GPs, senior doctors, consultants, all are on 100,000-300,000 Euro. You are leaving because you can't get a job, not because of pay. You can't get a job because wages are too high, tax income is too low. You also (most likely) got your fees paid for by the state, you don't have to work for 10 years to pay it off like in the states. If everybody took a wage cut and social welfare cut and accepted tax increases there would be money to hire more doctors.

You should see the problem is in the way pay and welfare is structured, the insiders versus outsiders. Now you are an outsider. You became an outsider because, like many Irish of all classes and income levels, you are unwilling to challenge the system. All you can hope for is that you can get your piece of the pie in the future. As you already explained, there is a need for more junior doctors and people on the ground, obviously the health service is top heavy but you will not challenge it. You are more interested in your own welfare rather than risk getting alienated or losing a fight, fair enough. I should qualify you is not aimed at 'you' only but at the solicitors, junior doctors, low level civil servants etc.

You should also admit, the problem in getting consultants to Ireland is definitely not pay (250,000 euro/yr, allowed private practice), rather it's due to a closed club and other issues, probably visa related. I know many excellent doctors in Asia who could provide the same level of care as consultants in Ireland at lower cost. They work hard, good English, great education level, no inflated expectations of worth. If I was the minister of health I'd fire everybody, change the pyramid to hire more junior doctors at slightly lower wage, double the number of consultants but at half pay. You might moan but at least you'll have a job and it will still pay much better than average. You'll be working in a better work environment with hope and fairness and efficiency. You'll be treated equally like the current 'god-like' consultants. Bring in the best people from all over the world. Provide a proper health service, rapid, efficient and accessible to all people of Ireland. Do what it's supposed to do, for patients of Ireland (says with a politicians flourish)!

its worth noting that many public servants include pay rises they were due under the towards 2015 agreement which was negotiated in the middle of the boom , they litterally consider not getting a pay rise to be a pay cut

dissed doc

maninasia wrote: »

Doctors get a high wage, even junior ones, compared to average income. I don't see where the 23% cut is, maybe if you include overtime limits.

Hmm. Standard SHO salary of 1st or 1nd grade is ~ €40k a year for a 40-50hr week - any of which can from Monday to Sunday and from 8am to 8pm. So €19/hr gross. OK so it's a little over double the minimum wage but I don't think it's a "high wage" considering it takes around 9 years from starting college to achieve it (compared to people making the same salary after 4 years).

Working forced 100hr weeks doesn't mean you are "getting a high wage" - different matter.

ardmacha

Ireland's GDP fell 12.7 percent between Q4 2007 and Q4 2009. Welcome to the new reality of calculating what percentage of GDP we spend on this, that, and the other.

As that fall is about the same as the fall in public sector salaries, it is only a cosmetic change, to use your own words. Why pay it any attention?

maninasia

dissed doc wrote: »

Hmm. Standard SHO salary of 1st or 1nd grade is ~ €40k a year for a 40-50hr week - any of which can from Monday to Sunday and from 8am to 8pm. So €19/hr gross. OK so it's a little over double the minimum wage but I don't think it's a "high wage" considering it takes around 9 years from starting college to achieve it (compared to people making the same salary after 4 years).

Working forced 100hr weeks doesn't mean you are "getting a high wage" - different matter.

I just did a search online, http://www.cpljobs.com/Jobs/SearchResultsLite?K=sho&sortby=date&sortdir=desc , while I can't see the salary scales ( I suspect the one you posted is lower than reality), there are plenty of positions available for doctors, at least for temporary work. I admit it's not ideal but you have to start somewhere of course, I'm sure the daily pay rate is high. Most people these days do Masters courses so 5-6 years of education is common for many staff, still won't start on 40,000 for most jobs. Doctors get paid on their internship too, I notice you are always choosing the numbers to suit yourself. From looking at the number it's not especially high pay for doctors but it's guaranteed and it does have good career progression.

Notice the doc doesn't comment about the messed up hierachical system that causes the situation.
http://www.politics.ie/health-social-affairs/48349-pay-rise-consultants-while-hse-slashes-nchds-income-25-a-2.html

dissed doc

maninasia wrote: »

I just did a search online, http://www.cpljobs.com/Jobs/SearchResultsLite?K=sho&sortby=date&sortdir=desc , while I can't see the salary scales ( I suspect the one you posted is lower than reality), there are plenty of positions available for doctors, at least for temporary work. I admit it's not ideal but you have to start somewhere of course, I'm sure the daily pay rate is high. Most people these days do Masters courses so 5-6 years of education is common for many staff, still won't start on 40,000 for most jobs. Doctors get paid on their internship too, I notice you are always choosing the numbers to suit yourself. From looking at the number it's not especially high pay for doctors but it's guaranteed and it does have good career progression.

Notice the doc doesn't comment about the messed up hierachical system that causes the situation.
http://www.politics.ie/health-social-affairs/48349-pay-rise-consultants-while-hse-slashes-nchds-income-25-a-2.html

Salaries are from 1st and 2nd year house officers standard scales (you get a SHO level 2 salary from your 9th year after starting college BTW), off the IMO website - check them if you like. That's a temp 6-month contract as well, zero "public sector" security. Career progression involves flights to North America or Australia, it seems. :pac:

Jane5

Dissed doc,
Not much point trying to explain the realities of being a non consultant hospital doctor in Ireland to people hun.

A few years back, after I had worked 57 hours straight and had not slept for all of it, or eaten in the last 17 hours, I finally was able to go home. I told someone about it. They looked me straight in the eye, and said:

"No you didn't. You're making it up. Sure that's illegal".

Most people cannot conceive of what NCHDs in Ireland get put through. I knew, unfortunately, two senior house officers who committed suicide after prolonged periods of working 100 hour weeks. It wasn't just the week, it was the abnormal shift durations-working three days and nights straight with no rostered sleep breaks, and they just lost it. I have been there, the despair and physical pain after sleep deprivation lasting longer than about 40-50 hours is traumatic. I will never do it again. I left Ireland to work in several different countries and when I came back, found I was physically sick at the thought of returning to frontline medicine in Ireland with its horrendous working conditions.

Not to mention how horrible the day to day working conditions are. The hostility. The pressure. The lack of staff. The unwillingness of all other hospital staff to do their jobs, because they know they can make you do them for them.

The constant job insecurity. Year in, year out. Moving house every six months. Reapplying for jobs every six months. Interviewing and scrounging every six months. Having to put up with anything anyone slings at you because you are in fear of not getting another glorious six month job.

The lack of career progression. The lack of SpR positions, lack of training, lack of support.

I left for a different but related job and have never looked back. I walked onto a ward as a visitor recently and the scent of everything evoked memories of my "prison sentence". Horrible. Never again.

The reason there is a staffing crisis is not really much to do with the visa situation. The fact is that with the recent paycut, the recent levies which are also paycuts, the loss of the training grant, (which for you non medics means that NCHDs now pay 5-6k or more every year, out of their own pockets, simply to be able to do their JOB), the horrendous working conditions which despite EU regulations and EWTD have not improved, people are finally wising up and leaving. Many used to stay because a partner/spouse had a job here, but now many of those have been fired and the docs in the relationship are able to jump ship. Also, as the partner/spouse of an employed doc, in Oz, NZ, and possibly the USA, you can work, so couples who are half medic are both doing better from leaving Ireland.

Jane5

Oh, yeah, the ole "public sector" SECURE JOB FOR LIFE, what a joke.

HAHAHA!

As NCHDs the longest possible contract you can ever have is two years long, which would be some sort of a training scheme and cannot be renewed once finished.

Most do not have this, or only have it once in their career. The rest is 6 months, then reapply, interview, move jobs to another hospital, move house, another 6 months, then reapply, then interview, then move.....you get the picture.

No security there. No pension proper either. Sure consultants get a pension. But the odds of becoming a consultant in Ireland I think, it's around 8% of doctors will make it.

However, I stated this fact regarding our job insecurity, and outlined how we have to job hunt and interview for ANY job, not always our speciality, every six months.

Guess what I got told.

"You're lying. All public sector are permanent. They all have jobs for life. You are making that up"

With ability to reason like that, it's no wonder so many vote for FF.

My friend, a nurse, has been on 6 WEEK contracts since November 2009. Every six weeks she reapplies and waits to hear if she has a job. She has been unable to rent somewhere as she doesn't know if she will be able to sign a lease, and has been crashing in a friends' spare room that she sublets.

No doubt that is made up as well. Us frontline staff are a very delusional bunch, it seems.....I wish I had gone into admin. Backroom bureaucrats seem to get the pay and permanent jobs. I wanna!

Jane5

Oh, and to the poster who thinks that doctors should be FORCED to work for 15 years in Ireland:


All people in Ireland get their college education paid for by the State. All engineers, lawyers, dentists, accountants, actuaries, vets, lab technicians, teachers, dietitians, speech therapists, nurses, occupational therapists, chemical engineers, chartered surveyors, IT specialists. etc etc.

All are funded by taxation. All working people pay into a common pool, some of which is used to pay for third level education for all the above and many more I have not mentioned.

Either all of the above have to be forced to remain in Ireland against their will engaging in solely their profession/trade in which they trained, or none do.

I have paid huge amounts of tax over the years, some of which may have funded third level students. Some of it may even have funded medical students!

In addition, NUI students all paid capitation fees, registration fees, etc of around 2k a year.

Also the majority of Irish medical students are funded by foreign medical
students who are charged around 40k a year tuition plus registration and capitation. The RCSI actually make a profit from these students. Hence it could be hypothesised that foreign medical student fees are an active source of revenue for the colleges, making medicine one of the courses that makes a net profit for the college.

In addtion, if a certain profession has illegal working conditions, and is in breach not only of EU laws but also of the Geneva convention (which states that deprivation of sleep and food are forms of torture), then before FORCING anyone to engage in these for prolonged periods of time, there would have to be wide reform of all aspects of NCHD work before any dictatorship fascist could conceivably force them to engage in said work.

You see, NCHDs were propping up the system for years. They do work the nurses won't do. They do work the hospital won't hire phlebotomists for out of hours and weekends. They fetch and carry things the porters won't. They are, in short, cheap and expendable lackeys. Conditions were already so bad that they were hightailing it in droves. I and many of my year left at the height of the boom. Now that the pay has been cut substantially, but the associated expenses of the job have not been, and have even risen, many are finding that it is no longer economically viable to continue to engage in this work here, for little prospect of stability and security, and no chance to have a family or any kind of a life.

So they leave.

Rather than IMPROVE working conditions, hire more doctors, have more transparent hiring procedures, implement some degree of job security and long term stability, have a ladder of career progession that is defined, feasible, and achievable by a reasonable proportion of trainees, why is the solution ALWAYS to "force those ungrateful bastards to do what we damn well tell them." Guess what this policy results in sunshine? We leave, to work in countries that don't treat people like SH*T.

I'll tell you this now. I would have taken a paycut back in the boom days if it meant I could have had half decent working conditions. I mean, decent, humane working conditions are the norm in most DEVELOPED countries, and I shouldn't have had to, but I would have. Too late now though.

irishconvert

sinnerboy wrote: »

I don't mean why are YOU not on the street protesting . I mean why do you think lots of Irish people are not violently protesting Greek style . Or like the UK anti poll tax demo's in the 80's . For the sake of clarity I wish to state I am relieved that is is not happening . Absolutely no good would come of it .

But why no Irish rent a mob do you suppose ?

Flouride in the water supply.

fontanalis

irishconvert wrote: »

Flouride in the water supply.

In Greece?

irishconvert

fontanalis wrote: »

In Greece?

Ireland.

dissed doc

maninasia wrote: »

I just did a search online, http://www.cpljobs.com/Jobs/SearchResultsLite?K=sho&sortby=date&sortdir=desc , while I can't see the salary scales

Interesting - one of the first i clicked was obs & gynae SHo, for 48hrs straight on the 26th/27th of June.

So tell me - what salary do you think someone should get for 48hrs of work, all in one go with no break.

dissed doc

Jane5 wrote: »

My friend, a nurse, has been on 6 WEEK contracts since November 2009. Every six weeks she reapplies ....

Yup this is very common now - I knew a speech therapist on the same "40 day" contracts that the HSE give. These type of things never get quoted in newspapers or media reports.

fontanalis

irishconvert wrote: »

Ireland.

So you're saying if the Greeks had fluoride they wouldn't have behaved like a bunch of football hooligans embarassing themselves worldwide, murdering three people and achieving absolutely nothing?

Jane5

dissed doc wrote: »

Yup this is very common now - I knew a speech therapist on the same "40 day" contracts that the HSE give. These type of things never get quoted in newspapers or media reports.

Well now, DD, they couldn't garner unlimited public support for the unilateral imposition of paycuts and unagreed upon conditions on the public servants if the truth were known, now could they?

I mean, if people knew that thousands of public servants had no job security whatsoever, had no pensions to speak of despite paying a "levy" on one, and were subjugated to whatever working conditions their employers saw fit to impose, then the Govt might not be able to undermine public support for the PS so much that they could easily implement their race to the bottom agenda and pave the way for cuts and worsening of terms and conditions in the private sector too.

I mean, the media couldn't possibly be complicit in the divide and conquer strategy here, could they?

maninasia

Jane5 wrote: »

Oh, yeah, the ole "public sector" SECURE JOB FOR LIFE, what a joke.

HAHAHA!

As NCHDs the longest possible contract you can ever have is two years long, which would be some sort of a training scheme and cannot be renewed once finished.

Most do not have this, or only have it once in their career. The rest is 6 months, then reapply, interview, move jobs to another hospital, move house, another 6 months, then reapply, then interview, then move.....you get the picture.

No security there. No pension proper either. Sure consultants get a pension. But the odds of becoming a consultant in Ireland I think, it's around 8% of doctors will make it.

However, I stated this fact regarding our job insecurity, and outlined how we have to job hunt and interview for ANY job, not always our speciality, every six months.

Guess what I got told.

"You're lying. All public sector are permanent. They all have jobs for life. You are making that up"

With ability to reason like that, it's no wonder so many vote for FF.

My friend, a nurse, has been on 6 WEEK contracts since November 2009. Every six weeks she reapplies and waits to hear if she has a job. She has been unable to rent somewhere as she doesn't know if she will be able to sign a lease, and has been crashing in a friends' spare room that she sublets.

No doubt that is made up as well. Us frontline staff are a very delusional bunch, it seems.....I wish I had gone into admin. Backroom bureaucrats seem to get the pay and permanent jobs. I wanna!

Well the situation is bad. But can you not see why that is? If you don't stand up to the system and organise then it won't get better. If there is something wrong you should try and fix it. Mass strike, whatever it takes. That's your industry. You got your fees paid for by the state and you are supposed to make a difference in medicine in Ireland. I don't see any mention from both docs here of the medical cost of this situation.

Typically just moan and then emigrate, get your training overseas and hope to come back as a consultant one day. All I see is self serving moaning and 'sure I can do much better overseas anyway, why bother'. Leave the consultants and HSE running the show however badly they do it. On your way out have a look at the consultants shiny new 09 and 10 porsches and beemers in the car park.

Why are there not more private hospitals in Ireland, that would improve the situation, they would be better organised and resourced. Perhaps if there were private hospitals you could accept a lower wage but better training, longer contracts and career progression. I feel sorry that your industry conditions are bad but even unskilled labourers have the b%^ls to fight and make things better!

SkepticOne

Jane5 wrote: »

Most do not have this, or only have it once in their career. The rest is 6 months, then reapply, interview, move jobs to another hospital, move house, another 6 months, then reapply, then interview, then move.....you get the picture.

No security there. No pension proper either. Sure consultants get a pension. But the odds of becoming a consultant in Ireland I think, it's around 8% of doctors will make it.

However, I stated this fact regarding our job insecurity, and outlined how we have to job hunt and interview for ANY job, not always our speciality, every six months.

Guess what I got told.

"You're lying. All public sector are permanent. They all have jobs for life. You are making that up"

With ability to reason like that, it's no wonder so many vote for FF.

My friend, a nurse, has been on 6 WEEK contracts since November 2009. Every six weeks she reapplies and waits to hear if she has a job. She has been unable to rent somewhere as she doesn't know if she will be able to sign a lease, and has been crashing in a friends' spare room that she sublets.

No doubt that is made up as well. Us frontline staff are a very delusional bunch, it seems.....I wish I had gone into admin. Backroom bureaucrats seem to get the pay and permanent jobs. I wanna!

You say 8% of doctors are hospital consultants, but what percentage of doctors are hospital doctors at any one time?

Many people are aware of long hours, relatively low pay and short contracts of junior doctors in hospitals but how many have ever done this all their lives until retirement? What about other jobs outside of hospital work?

I think it is true, though, that not every job in the public sector is secure. There are many on temporary contracts. The role of these people is twofold.

1. To do the work that permanent staff won't do or to take up the slack in busy periods and

2. To provide security to permanent staff by acting as a sort of buffer in difficult times. In difficult times the temporary staff can be let go, preserving the permanent jobs.

This is why the unions have very little interest in temporary staff as members. They need lots of temporary staff in order that their main members, the permanent staff, are more secure.

I suspect it is the hospital consultants themselves that insist on the temporary nature of the jobs for junior doctors, not the government or hse management.