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Why no Greek style unrest

  • 31-05-2010 11:14AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭


    I don't mean why are YOU not on the street protesting . I mean why do you think lots of Irish people are not violently protesting Greek style . Or like the UK anti poll tax demo's in the 80's . For the sake of clarity I wish to state I am relieved that is is not happening . Absolutely no good would come of it .

    But why no Irish rent a mob do you suppose ?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    As the fella said, there are too many people who are doing well out of the status quo to change it, they haven't really taken a real hit at all, the public workers, social welfare recipients...it's in their interests (as long as possible) to resist major change.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    maninasia wrote: »
    As the fella said, there are too many people who are doing well out of the status quo to change it, they haven't really taken a real hit at all, the public workers, social welfare recipients...it's in their interests (as long as possible) to resist major change.


    Speak for yourself. I'm a doctor here (and obviously leaving imminently). 23% reduction in after tax income since last year (not overtime reductions) and pay around 48% of my gross salary on taxes and levies.

    On top of that, with a 20% reduction in the junior doctor workforce coming in july, it will mean that already stretched services will see an increase in expected workload by the remaining doctors.

    Further to that, we already had one of the lowest numbers of doctors per population in the OECD before these new changes came in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Speak for yourself. I'm a doctor here (and obviously leaving imminently). 23% reduction in after tax income since last year (not overtime reductions) and pay around 48% of my gross salary on taxes and levies.

    On top of that, with a 20% reduction in the junior doctor workforce coming in july, it will mean that already stretched services will see an increase in expected workload by the remaining doctors.

    Further to that, we already had one of the lowest numbers of doctors per population in the OECD before these new changes came in.

    I wonder how will this "knowledge economy" utopia is build

    when anyone who has plenty skills and education like guy/girl above is getting the **** out


    anyone who is paying little tax or no tax (2/3rds of the workforce) should really be worried when people like the guy above start to leave.
    the same people who now get half or more of their earnings taken away to pay for your entitlements :(

    Eventually, Socialists run out of other peoples' money [to spend]
    :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,235 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    This post has been deleted.
    I don't think it was just the money he was complaining about to be fair, he was responding to claims that pay cuts in the PS were merely cosmetic, he claims to be down 23% in take home pay (I don't believe this figure is correct) which is more than cosmetic. I think he is more worried about how working conditions in the Health Service are about to change as the system comes under more pressure from cuts. I don't think I'd fancy going to work every morning in a system like that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,983 ✭✭✭granturismo


    This post has been deleted.

    Anti public sector bias again. Back on topic - both the public and private sector in Greece get crap wages. They may get paid for 2 extra months per annum and some private and public sector can retire at 55, but their actual take home salary is relatively low.

    Greece traditionally has a more militant population, combined with low wages, explains why their protests get so violent - also their anacharists use the demos for their own purposes which adds to the violence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Nehaxak


    I blame the GAA for the lack of protests due to instilling or entrenching attitudes for one's own county rather than the country as a whole.
    Case in point, I really couldn't care less what happens outside of Dublin. I should, but I don't. Fickle maybe but there ye go.

    ..but seriously...
    I am disillusioned by the lack of leadership, bravery and ability from ANY political party in Ireland.

    I have to have a reason to protest and I want strong unbiased leadership to inspire me to protest - that what I am protesting for will be worth it, that it has meaning, that it's not just a load of tree hugging anarchist hippies or communists at the protest march looking for political gain, or worse, with no direction at all other than protesting just for the sake of it and to somehow massage their own ego.

    Give me a real reason to protest with a proper alternative solution to what I am protesting against, without communists and/or anarchists shouting their mouths off just for the sake of it, and I will be there.

    Otherwise I'll just sit in and watch the telly and leave the country to rot with the government they themselves voted in - sure they made their choice, I didn't vote for them, why should I now bother to protest against the very government I never voted in when the democratic wishes of the majority in the country did vote for them ? Not my fault so why should I bother ?

    The people of the country, in a rather large majority, voted in the very government who are sitting at the helm of the very destruction of our country. You (the vast majority of the people of Ireland) voted in your own destruction, learn to live with the choice you made and hope FF/Greens have at least one person with some brains among them that can drag the country through debatedly it's biggest challenge since the establishment of the Republic itself.

    Yours, Mr Apathetic, meh and stuff...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,044 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Further to that, we already had one of the lowest numbers of doctors per population in the OECD before these new changes came in.
    It'll be even lower when all the rats have jumped ship ;)

    The likes of doctors etc. that cost a fortune to train should be forced to work for a minimum of 15 years or something in the state. It's not on that someone can get trained in Ireland then p!ss off to the states to clean up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    This post has been deleted.

    And likewise, our public transport network is significantly superior to that available to people in rural Tibet - and it's also entirely irrelevant to this argument.

    I was responding to the suggestion that the public service cuts and public-only tax/levies has had no a real impact and significant drop in salaries and is merely "cosmetic".

    The flip side, is that the HSE is cutting 20% of the workforce from July - there are no jobs for many doctors to go to.

    Do you think I want to leave my own country? After 18 months of told how lazy I am by the media and many on these forums, I still would rather stay, but there is not one single job to apply for. I have a choice of dole here or work abroad. Many other doctors are in the same position - and it's not like there are huge numbers of non-Irish/non-EU doctors queing up to come here, as applications for jobs were already < 50% down in the last 6 months before the HSE number reductions from this July.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    This post has been deleted.

    never knew you were such a fan of Cuba donegalfella , next thing you will become a complete leftie maybe even a shinner!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    dissed doc wrote: »
    And likewise, our public transport network is significantly superior to that available to people in rural Tibet - and it's also entirely irrelevant to this argument.

    I was responding to the suggestion that the public service cuts and public-only tax/levies has had no a real impact and significant drop in salaries and is merely "cosmetic".

    The flip side, is that the HSE is cutting 20% of the workforce from July - there are no jobs for many doctors to go to.

    Do you think I want to leave my own country? After 18 months of told how lazy I am by the media and many on these forums, I still would rather stay, but there is not one single job to apply for. I have a choice of dole here or work abroad. Many other doctors are in the same position - and it's not like there are huge numbers of non-Irish/non-EU doctors queing up to come here, as applications for jobs were already < 50% down in the last 6 months before the HSE number reductions from this July.

    another example of the brain drain from this country , best of luck to you wherever you go , the brighest the most ambitious will leave , the handout merchants and the ''gimmee'' public servants in secure positions they are not remotely qualified to do shall remain


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    But why no Irish rent a mob do you suppose ?
    There is an Irish rent-a-mob, its the SWP/PBP/etc and the shinners.

    Which is exactly why nobody else goes near street protests.

    In a funny way, they do a great job of keeping the population subdued.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    There is an Irish rent-a-mob, its the SWP/PBP/etc and the shinners.

    Which is exactly why nobody else goes near street protests.

    In a funny way, they do a great job of keeping the population subdued.

    I was at the protest outside the dail and a couple of weeks ago, I struggled to keep a straight face given all the silly rethoric that was coming from various speakers, these people like Brendan Ogle were to the left of Jack O'Connor for crying out loud. There were feck all people present also.:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Speak for yourself. I'm a doctor here (and obviously leaving imminently). 23% reduction in after tax income since last year (not overtime reductions) and pay around 48% of my gross salary on taxes and levies.

    On top of that, with a 20% reduction in the junior doctor workforce coming in july, it will mean that already stretched services will see an increase in expected workload by the remaining doctors.

    Further to that, we already had one of the lowest numbers of doctors per population in the OECD before these new changes came in.

    Did you ever think that some of your colleagues at the top of the food chain are getting paid just a little too much?? Ever think that if they reduced their salaries there might be more money for junior doctors?? Further to that, why dont you call for the removal of the god knows how many layers of middle management in the HSE that eats up how much of the budget???

    The whole health service needs a wake-up call.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Did you ever think that some of your colleagues at the top of the food chain are getting paid just a little too much?? Ever think that if they reduced their salaries there might be more money for junior doctors?? Further to that, why dont you call for the removal of the god knows how many layers of middle management in the HSE that eats up how much of the budget???

    The whole health service needs a wake-up call.

    The health service needs to be privatised, statist healthcare doesn't work in Ireland and has never worked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    I was at the protest outside the dail and a couple of weeks ago, I struggled to keep a straight face given all the silly rethoric that was coming from various speakers, these people like Brendan Ogle were to the left of Jack O'Connor for crying out loud. There were feck all people present also.:D

    ah good ol brendan ogle , the far left union rep who insists on 80 k plus per year for his ESB workers


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Did you ever think that some of your colleagues at the top of the food chain are getting paid just a little too much?? Ever think that if they reduced their salaries there might be more money for junior doctors?? Further to that, why dont you call for the removal of the god knows how many layers of middle management in the HSE that eats up how much of the budget???

    The whole health service needs a wake-up call.

    Call for what? Junior doctors are all on 6 month temporary contracts from the moment they graduate to the moment they emigrate - renewable only by reinterview. There is no call for removing layers of management seeing as they are people that insist on making sure no junior doctors get the security to start causing trouble for them.

    As regards consultants, the country struggles to attract anyone even with those salaries, and has around 1/2 the recommended quota's filled for most specialities.

    There is a certain of money required to fund a fully functioning health service. It is considerably below our european colleagues e.g., France in simple as per GDP spending. Fair enough to make cuts during a recession but the consequences of e.g, having 1 ENT doctor instead of the 3 required for a certain population should be spelled out to people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    ah good ol brendan ogle , the far left union rep who insists on 80 k plus per year for his ESB workers

    Brendan Ogle believes in socialism for the masses and capitalism for himself and his employees, he was also slating Jack O'Connor, I seriously think Ogle needs a severe electric shock therapy to bring him back to reality.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭Mister men


    Irish people are lazy and cowardly. Sure it'll be fine.:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Mister men wrote: »
    Irish people are lazy and cowardly. Sure it'll be fine.:rolleyes:
    Nothing like a spot of bald racism to get your point across, eh?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    A lot of Irish people are complacent, thats true, we tolerate been ripped off and a lot of Irish people are willing to pay over the odds for property.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Call for what? Junior doctors are all on 6 month temporary contracts from the moment they graduate to the moment they emigrate - renewable only by reinterview. There is no call for removing layers of management seeing as they are people that insist on making sure no junior doctors get the security to start causing trouble for them.

    As regards consultants, the country struggles to attract anyone even with those salaries, and has around 1/2 the recommended quota's filled for most specialities.

    Well if you wont stand up for your own system how do you expect it to change. I think your excuse is a cop-out personally.

    Your second statement is just ridiculous. Attract from where, do we not have people here capable of becoming consultants??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Well if you wont stand up for your own system how do you expect it to change. I think your excuse is a cop-out personally.

    Your second statement is just ridiculous. Attract from where, do we not have people here capable of becoming consultants??

    How often do those in the private sector on short term contracts start causing trouble for their bosses? And with only one employer in the country? Doctors are human too. Let me see a computer programmer on a 6 month contract start striking first, and with there being only one employer in whole country available.

    We have plenty of people trained and capable of becoming consultants - yet they invariably choose to leave. The people - the majority - you - need to decide with your politicians about what sort of health service you want.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ghost_ie


    murphaph wrote: »
    It'll be even lower when all the rats have jumped ship ;)

    The likes of doctors etc. that cost a fortune to train should be forced to work for a minimum of 15 years or something in the state. It's not on that someone can get trained in Ireland then p!ss off to the states to clean up.

    Harney said today that there would be cuts to public health services next year and that 1500 jobs must go in the health service this year and next. She doesn't mean 1500 burocrats in the HSE - she means 1500 doctors, nurses and nurses aides per year for the next 2 years. Doctors and nurses who trained here would happily work here for much more than 15 years if they were given the chance to.


  • Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ghost_ie wrote: »
    Harney said today that there would be cuts to public health services next year and that 1500 jobs must go in the health service this year and next. She doesn't mean 1500 burocrats in the HSE - she means 1500 doctors, nurses and nurses aides per year for the next 2 years. Doctors and nurses who trained here would happily work here for much more than 15 years if they were given the chance to.

    Why the emphasis on Doctor's/ nurses? What about Pharmacists, Dieticians, Physiotherapists, Occupational Therapists? 1500 jobs across the board is not a lot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    dissed doc wrote: »
    And likewise, our public transport network is significantly superior to that available to people in rural Tibet - and it's also entirely irrelevant to this argument.

    I was responding to the suggestion that the public service cuts and public-only tax/levies has had no a real impact and significant drop in salaries and is merely "cosmetic".

    The flip side, is that the HSE is cutting 20% of the workforce from July - there are no jobs for many doctors to go to.

    Do you think I want to leave my own country? After 18 months of told how lazy I am by the media and many on these forums, I still would rather stay, but there is not one single job to apply for. I have a choice of dole here or work abroad. Many other doctors are in the same position - and it's not like there are huge numbers of non-Irish/non-EU doctors queing up to come here, as applications for jobs were already < 50% down in the last 6 months before the HSE number reductions from this July.

    Doctors get a high wage, even junior ones, compared to average income. I don't see where the 23% cut is, maybe if you include overtime limits. GPs, senior doctors, consultants, all are on 100,000-300,000 Euro. You are leaving because you can't get a job, not because of pay. You can't get a job because wages are too high, tax income is too low. You also (most likely) got your fees paid for by the state, you don't have to work for 10 years to pay it off like in the states. If everybody took a wage cut and social welfare cut and accepted tax increases there would be money to hire more doctors.

    You should see the problem is in the way pay and welfare is structured, the insiders versus outsiders. Now you are an outsider. You became an outsider because, like many Irish of all classes and income levels, you are unwilling to challenge the system. All you can hope for is that you can get your piece of the pie in the future. As you already explained, there is a need for more junior doctors and people on the ground, obviously the health service is top heavy but you will not challenge it. You are more interested in your own welfare rather than risk getting alienated or losing a fight, fair enough. I should qualify you is not aimed at 'you' only but at the solicitors, junior doctors, low level civil servants etc.

    You should also admit, the problem in getting consultants to Ireland is definitely not pay (250,000 euro/yr, allowed private practice), rather it's due to a closed club and other issues, probably visa related. I know many excellent doctors in Asia who could provide the same level of care as consultants in Ireland at lower cost. They work hard, good English, great education level, no inflated expectations of worth. If I was the minister of health I'd fire everybody, change the pyramid to hire more junior doctors at slightly lower wage, double the number of consultants but at half pay. You might moan but at least you'll have a job and it will still pay much better than average. You'll be working in a better work environment with hope and fairness and efficiency. You'll be treated equally like the current 'god-like' consultants. Bring in the best people from all over the world. Provide a proper health service, rapid, efficient and accessible to all people of Ireland. Do what it's supposed to do, for patients of Ireland (says with a politicians flourish)!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia


    danbohan wrote: »
    another example of the brain drain from this country , best of luck to you wherever you go , the brighest the most ambitious will leave , the handout merchants and the ''gimmee'' public servants in secure positions they are not remotely qualified to do shall remain

    That's a sweeping statement to make, he's leaving because he can't get a job, like most Irish that live outside Ireland. I could pretty much include myself in there. By the time we spend enough time outside we might be the best and brightest though :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,178 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Best of luck abroad... I split in Feb, and took my 30k pa in annual income tax with me.


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