Playing without a goalkeeper (football).

ArmaniJeanss

Has any GAA team experimented with not playing with a goalkeeper, efectively putting out 15 outfield players and organising the goal keeping duties on the basis of a 'last-man-back' system?

It seems to me that the goalkeeper in gaelic football has no specific advantage over the other players (as opposed to say soccer where he has the huge advantage of being the only player who can handle the ball, so its essential that he maintains his position).

So when the ball is in midfield or an attacking area you would have an extra outfield player. When you are defending against a normal 'slow' attack then obviously you would have the player of your choosing between the sticks. When you are defending against a fast attack or a counter attack, you would have 3 or 4 players trained to adapt as to who is in the best position to be the goalkeeper and who should be tackling/marking.

As an example Aussie Rules players seem to adopt such a defensive formation.

All thoughts and criticism welcome - I get these mad ideas sometimes

DARK-KNIGHT

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Has any GAA team experimented with not playing with a goalkeeper, efectively putting out 15 outfield players and organising the goal keeping duties on the basis of a 'last-man-back' system?

It seems to me that the goalkeeper in gaelic football has no specific advantage over the other players (as opposed to say soccer where he has the huge advantage of being the only player who can handle the ball, so its essential that he maintains his position).

So when the ball is in midfield or an attacking area you would have an extra outfield player. When you are defending against a normal 'slow' attack then obviously you would have the player of your choosing between the sticks. When you are defending against a fast attack or a counter attack, you would have 3 or 4 players trained to adapt as to who is in the best position to be the goalkeeper and who should be tackling/marking.

As an example Aussie Rules players seem to adopt such a defensive formation.

All thoughts and criticism welcome - I get these mad ideas sometimes

thats ok and all but aussie rules doesnt need a keeper as there is no goal to defend while we have a goal that needs to be defended!

now if u dont have a keeper back im guaranteeing you someone will keep trying to kick from distance to goal!

im not saying its a terrible idea or a new one in all fairness but it seems to me could spell trouble for defenses!

Tristram

You would be destroyed. Your defence could not possibly adjust at a pace required without fouling at almost every possession.

Royal Seahawk

It would be all well and good until the opposition's midfielder bangs in a goal from 50 yards.

Imposter

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

It would be all well and good until the opposition's midfielder bangs in a goal from 50 yards.

Don't be silly - nobody can kick a ball straight from 50 yards any more!

spongeman

Would'nt work.

For example in the Wicklow/Carlow match Travers made 2 one on one saves at critical points in the match.

Royal Seahawk

Imposter wrote: »

Don't be silly - nobody can kick a ball straight from 50 yards any more!

Ahem...

Gophur

All this in a game where a referee can (and sometime does) refuse to start the game unless all 15 players are standing in their so-called positions?

Only 2 mid-fielders from each side are allowed contest the throw-in, for example, despite so many teams playing with three mid-fielders?

So many teams adopt a 7th defender, yet not allowed have 7 defenders at the start of a game. etc., etc.

There's a precious lack of imagination in Gaelic Football, and a roving goalkeeper is a great idea. Well worth trying.

keane2097

I think maybe playing without a specialist GK would be a step too far, but I certainly agree with you that the GK could add much more to general play than the vast majority of them do currently.

Colm R

There is no rule that prevents a goal keeper from leaving the box, so in general, if it was a good idea, it would have been done already.

Is the keeper allowed to pick up straight from the ground in the small square? I think so, and therefore this rule would have to be changed to allow anyone or noone pick up in the small square.

Also, one player is allowed to wear (or has to wear) a different colour jersey to be identifed as the keeper. This rule would have to be changed if you were to allow a 'last man back' situation develop.

28064212

Gophur wrote: »

All this in a game where a referee can (and sometime does) refuse to start the game unless all 15 players are standing in their so-called positions?

Only 2 mid-fielders from each side are allowed contest the throw-in, for example, despite so many teams playing with three mid-fielders?

So many teams adopt a 7th defender, yet not allowed have 7 defenders at the start of a game. etc., etc.

There's a precious lack of imagination in Gaelic Football, and a roving goalkeeper is a great idea. Well worth trying.

So? You're allowed have 7 defenders, or 3 midfielder's, or 15 full-forwards from 3 seconds into the game. Virtually every sport has basic starting positions to adhere to. Should we just allow a 30 man free-for-all for the throw-in?

keane2097 wrote: »

I think maybe playing without a specialist GK would be a step too far, but I certainly agree with you that the GK could add much more to general play than the vast majority of them do currently.

^-- This. Playing without a keeper would be a good way to get slaughtered, but a keeper who doubles as a sweeper would certainly be able to give the defence a hand. Also, the goalkeeper does have some (small) advantages in football: they can handle the ball on the ground inside the small rectangle, and they can't be shoulder-charged in the small rectangle

ArmaniJeanss

Colm R wrote: »

There is no rule that prevents a goal keeper from leaving the box, so in general, if it was a good idea, it would have been done already.

You're correct that there is no rule stopping it but I think its a big leap from there to say that 'if it was a good idea it would be done already'. Perhaps it just hasn't been thought of before.

Colm R wrote: »

Is the keeper allowed to pick up straight from the ground in the small square? I think so, and therefore this rule would have to be changed to allow anyone or noone pick up in the small square.

Also, one player is allowed to wear (or has to wear) a different colour jersey to be identifed as the keeper. This rule would have to be changed if you were to allow a 'last man back' situation develop.

Fair point - under current rules there would still have to be one person wearing the goalkeepers jersey but he would just be the 'token keeper'. He would only be the last man back a certain percentage of the time. Also as you point out only this player would be able to pick up in the square, though I think this is a minor issue, I recall going 4 or 5 games in goal for the school without doing a square pickup.

keane2097

Colm R wrote: »

There is no rule that prevents a goal keeper from leaving the box, so in general, if it was a good idea, it would have been done already.

I wonder how this logic applies to swarm defenses around 2003?

MementoMori

Goals are just too valueable to conceed so I don't think it's a realistic propostion. Given some teams are playing with pretty much 8 to 10 defenders anyway I can't see it being introduced.

Stephen Cluxton's attempts to unilaterally introduce the sweeper/keeper into the game didn't go all that well for him when he tried it for the Dubs

Fandango

Interesting idea but if a team adopted that strategy, they would have to have one of the extra defenders in or around the goal mouth to avoid long shots going into an empty net so wouldnt be much different. All it would mean is that when it comes to shot stopping, you dont have someone skilled in it on the pitch. Think you would be far better off sacraficing a centre back for a midfielder or something instead as it gives you alot more to work with.

Fandango

MementoMori wrote: »

Goals are just too valueable to conceed so I don't think it's a realistic propostion. Given some teams are playing with pretty much 8 to 10 defenders anyway I can't see it being introduced.

Stephen Cluxton's attempts to unilaterally introduce the sweeper/keeper into the game didn't go all that well for him when he tried it for the Dubs

Was thinking that myself. Would be more likely to field your keeper but allow him to play a sort of sweeper role at times but doesnt tend to work too well!

keane2097

Just because Stephen Cluxton is shít doesn't end the argument lads.

Fandango

keane2097 wrote: »

Just because Stephen Cluxton is shít doesn't end the argument lads.

As a sweeper, yes he is. Why would that end the argument anyway? If you think he is "****", surely that furthers the argument to sacrafice him for an outfielder?? Personally im happy with him between the posts tho. Saved us on many occasions!

Fandango

Fandango wrote: »

As a sweeper, yes he is. Why would that end the argument anyway? If you think he is "****", surely that furthers the argument to sacrafice him for an outfielder?? Personally im happy with him between the posts tho. Saved us on many occasions!

Ah, i need the fada over the "i" for it to show, i see now

Tristram

I fear for the general wellbeing of the GAA forum when such a retarded idea is not scorned and scoffed at off-hand.

Jimmy Iovine

Tristram wrote: »

I fear for the general wellbeing of the GAA forum when such a retarded idea is not scorned and scoffed at off-hand.

Well then would I fear for the long term future of the GAA if they were to dismiss such an idea, radical and all as it is

Tristram

Please, for the love of God, explain to poor simple me how this new system might work.

manster

seen it working quite effectively during national school matches where the keeper makes a charge up the field. his team mates keep hand passing him the ball as there is no one there to mark him. he keeps going up the middle and the rest of the team draw out to the wings. only seen it done underage. i think it was one of those 13 a side matches. the keeper normally gets fouled though before he gets anywhere near the goal.
as a once off i'd like to see some senior team try it but the keeper needs to be fast, which is rare!

shineon23

I was at a Cavan antrim game in breffni park, i think preliminary round of ulster 5or 6 years ago. Around 45 mins in Cavan were winning by 5or 6 points, so Antrim deployed their goalkeeper, to seek out possession from frrekicks within the 45 metre perimeter of the pitch, once he got the ball usually near the sideline he'd make a dash upfield,getting as far as the opposing 65 metre line, all the Cavan players could do was foul him or shoulder him out over the sideline, was an excellent tactic to maintain possession and earn another free further up the field, unfortunately their forwards weren't good enough to put scores up, and they lost the game narrowly i recall??(not sure) if the antrim of last year did this , it no doubt would have recieved rave review as innovative and ingenius, as they won games. However as this was a first round loss it recieved no appreciation and was instantly dismissed not due to the lack of ingenuity used rather to the scoreboard. as always ulster seem to be the first for innovative playin tactics like this and the swarm tackle,some successful others not.

There is definitely a place for this tactic near the latter stages of a game if you are struggling to further the ball past the midfield. the free man is giving an extra outlet for a pass and there is always an open choice of a pass. Genius and should not be dismissed by the narrowminded traditionlists. fair play to mod for the daring suggestion. worth a look,
I cant recall the goalkeeper's name but he was not the red haired man that retired last year or so, he was an irregular panelist and very fit looking.

Also i've seen it used at a lower level cavan club championship in the dying embers of game with teams desparate for the ball up the field for scores to put more pressure on the opposition. and used here very effectively ,i seen a goalkeeper scoring a winning pointed free once while on one of these excursions in a league game, aoghan cahill of ramor united versus lavey gfc intermediate play off 2007/8.

Great idea executed correctly could be worth experimenting,done wrong =disaster. (The 50 yard hail mary goal)

Agreed cannot put an outfieder in goals like ice hockey or aussie rules or soccer goalie going upfield for a corner etc. but a goalie with an outfield aptitude e.g. Current Derry keeper who also won a national league as an outfield player would be a candidate for such a trial.

Sorry for the many Ulster exclusive examples but as Cavan only get out of Ulster by bus lately it's all i have to go on.

Rant over!

Morgans

Maybe at county level its different, but at several clubs that Ive played for and know Im not sure that the player who ends up in goals is in fact the teams best goal keeper. It could just be that the best goalkeeper is more valuable to the team as a midfielder, centre-back etc.

What Im driving at is that there seems to be a perception that this is about developing goalkeepers into better outfield players, where in fact, it could be that a 16th player could be deployed elsewhere and leave minding the goals to the defence.

There are very few reaction type brilliant saves, its more smother type one-on-one shots that are stopped. I think there are several players that could manage to get into the right position to do this on most teams.

rebel girl 15

Morgans wrote: »

Maybe at county level its different, but at several clubs that Ive played for and know Im not sure that the player who ends up in goals is in fact the teams best goal keeper. It could just be that the best goalkeeper is more valuable to the team as a midfielder, centre-back etc.

What Im driving at is that there seems to be a perception that this is about developing goalkeepers into better outfield players, where in fact, it could be that a 16th :eek: player could be deployed elsewhere and leave minding the goals to the defence.

There are very few reaction type brilliant saves, its more smother type one-on-one shots that are stopped. I think there are several players that could manage to get into the right position to do this on most teams.

I don't think its a viable option this bring the goalkeeper out as an extra player. This thing about developing goalkeepers as better outfield players is one thing, but there is some serious specialisation required to be a top goalkeeper.

Goalkeeper as a sweeper idea - I don't get this really, do some lads here think that the goalkeeper stands on the line and thats it, or is it that I'm taking sweeper the wrong way? If the full forward line are playing 40 out from goal, and a ball comes in over them, the keeper should be coming out and taking the ball. A goalkeeper is supposed to sweep up any loose ball that breaks in and around the goal and give it out, ideally you would want a forward coming in to challenge the keeper and create an overlap all the way up the pitch. But sometimes, the forwards go back out to mark their men, and the keeper will come out, but normally get rid of it to a man making a run. Maybe this isn't happening as much as I thought it was, I think Keane2097 touched on it, thats some keepers could add more to general play, like drawing the man and having an overlap. We all saw what happened when Donaghy caught Alan Quirke in the AI final, and that could happen very easily to any keeper. I think the best way to get goalkeepers to add to general play is to give them a couple of games outfield, I'm a goalkeeper, but I've learned valuable lessons from playing outfield as well, and vice versa. It also takes the pressure off the goalkeeper, if you make a mistake outfield it may not be noticed, if you make a mistake in goals, its huge

I wouldn't agree with this thing of the goalkeeper ending up the other side of the pitch, but I don't think there is any harm in the keeper coming out to cover someone in the full back line, the free man going to the half back line etc, if the team have possession and need an extra man for the attack, and work the ball.

To organise the OP's idea would be huge, I don't know would teams be willing to put in the time to actually try it. It would take time in training and time outside of training to arrange who would go where, and teams don't have enough time with players to sort it. In Aussie Rules, there is no need for a keeper because the goal is the same whether it is dribbled along the ground between the posts or put 20ft high through them.

One poster mentioned about goals being important, and I agree - a goal can give a huge lift to a team, and can be a downer to the team that concede it. Without a specialist goalkeeper, it will happen that soft goals will go in

Its one thing for a goalkeeper to be deployed up the field in the last two minutes when a team are down, but completely different to play it for the whole game.

yayamark

Personally I dont think there is room outfield for them unless they go into a deep full forward role.

IMO there are too may players on the pitch at the mo. Teams should be downsized to 14 or 13 a side. Makes a game more open and fluid.