stopped by gardai! looking for advice

grizzly_beer

yesterday I was stopped by 2 cops in a normal car (not a cop car)
admittdley i was stupidly breaking 2 red lights at the time, I was just in a bad mood, tired, slightly lost, it was drizzling and I was fairly pissed off after getting a lot of aggro from motorists on the road from drumcondra to the airport (which is an absolutely horrible road to cycle on btw!)
The gard took my details, name, dob, address, he asked whether i have a driving liscence to which i replied no, but I'd forgotten I actually did just get a provisional one recently, he mentioned something about me getting a court summons at some stage, and I'm pretty sure he mentioned "reckless endangerment" and off he went...

Anyway I'm totally pissing myself about this, anyone have any, experience / advice for this kind of thing? would be much appreciated thanks!!

rottenhat

You'd have to be very, very unlucky to actually get that summons - nine times out of ten they're just telling you that to give you a scare and won't actually be bothered doing the paperwork for it.

Bluefoam

The title of the thread sounds like the gardai stopped you because they were looking for advice.

Lumen

Non-Fatal Offences Against The Person Act 1997 wrote:

Endangerment.

13.—(1) A person shall be guilty of an offence who intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of death or serious harm to another.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years or to both.

I am not a lawyer, but I do not think this act was intended to cover red light jumping by cyclists.

JacksonHeightsOwn

you'll be grand

do you really think 2 garda, in an unmarked car, who more than likely actually do more than stop motorists for tax and insurance are going to go to the bother of writing up a charge sheet for a cyclist breaking a red light?

yep,

its 6 months in the joy for you id say

Fatscally

They're just letting you know they're there and you should behave

papac

Sounds like the Guards just giving you a quiet warning-commonsense policing imo.

As long as you were polite to them you'll be grand. They usually only bother with the hassle of following through with this type of thing if you give them lip.("Why don't you catch the real criminals" -sort of thing.:))

Chips Lovell

As several others have said, the chances are that you won't receive a summons. Another user on this forum was stopped recently for the same thing and has yet to hear anything. From the cops' point of view, they may be hoping that a stern enough warning will prompt you to change your behaviour without the hassle of prosecuting you. Having said that, if either of them see you breaking the lights in future, you could probably bank on them not letting you off. I'd say nothing gets on their goat more than being ignored like that.

If you do get a summons, well the best course of action is to go along, plead guilty and take your medicine. I'd be surprised if they went for reckless endangerment as it might be hard to get across the line. Could be a more commoner garden road traffic offence instead.

Should be noticed that the cops did say recently they would be taking a harder line with cyclists breaking the law.

Beasty

My advice - don't jump red lights (or commit other offences) if you want to avoid being stopped again:)

I presume there is a certain period within which they have to notify you if they intend taking this forward (with motoring offences I think it's something like 2 weeks)

kona

grizzly_beer wrote: »

yesterday I was stopped by 2 cops in a normal car (not a cop car)
admittdley i was stupidly breaking 2 red lights at the time, I was just in a bad mood, tired, slightly lost, it was drizzling and I was fairly pissed off after getting a lot of aggro from motorists on the road from drumcondra to the airport (which is an absolutely horrible road to cycle on btw!)
The gard took my details, name, dob, address, he asked whether i have a driving liscence to which i replied no, but I'd forgotten I actually did just get a provisional one recently, he mentioned something about me getting a court summons at some stage, and I'm pretty sure he mentioned "reckless endangerment" and off he went...

Anyway I'm totally pissing myself about this, anyone have any, experience / advice for this kind of thing? would be much appreciated thanks!!

Hope they throw the book at you, about time they started stoppin people who think traffic lights dont apply to them.

Tau

el tonto wrote: »

Should be noticed that the cops did say recently they would be taking a harder line with cyclists breaking the law.

Long overdue too tbh.

Dannyboy1987

If you cycle on roads , follow the road laws or stay on the cycle lanes .:mad:

ED E

el tonto wrote: »

Should be noticed that the cops did say recently they would be taking a harder line with cyclists breaking the law.

While they cycle on the footpath talking to their mates:rolleyes:

brayblue24

If your version of events is exactly as it was then I'd be very susprised if you got a summons-it's not typically a plain clothes unit's type of prosecution.

However had it been me you'd have been prosecuted!

I think you should count yourself lucky and start to abide by the ROTR in future. That said if you do get a summons to court you won't have the bailiffs at your door after you can't pay any fine you might get....

kona

Beasty wrote: »

My advice - don't jump red lights (or commit other offences) if you want to avoid being stopped again:)

I presume there is a certain period within which they have to notify you if they intend taking this forward (with motoring offences I think it's something like 2 weeks)

Well I was stopped last april asked to produce.....produced, got a summons in december for not producing.....proved I did produce... such a waste of my time, courts time and garda time.:rolleyes:

grizzly_beer

thanks a lot guys, I feel a bit better

btw I was extremely conciliatory and submissive towards them when talking,
also *I think* they drove around past me again while I was studiously obeying the law
also they were'nt plain clothes, they had uniforms, dunno what they were doing.

tomasrojo

@grizzly_beer, on which bit of the road from Drumcondra to the airport were you being hassled? I found more intimidation recently heading north on the Lower Drumcondra Road (passing the Bishop's house on the opposite side of the road) This always happens when they add a cycling "facility". So I've started using the Iona Road/Hollybank Road/Griffith Park approach to get behind the Millmount House pub to avoid that stretch altogether.

But I'm coming from the west when I do that; wouldn't be much point if you were not.

monument

It's not that abnormal to see uniformed officers in unmarked cars. But I think I have noticed more of them dealing with what look to be normal traffic offences.

markpb

monument wrote: »

It's not that abnormal to see uniformed officers in unmarked cars. But I think I have noticed more of them dealing with what look to be normal traffic offences.

As far as I know, some traffic corp use regular cars for patrolling so they can observe normal driving standards.

anoble66

they are using unmarked rental mondeos near me - catching a serious amount of road users as well

markpb wrote: »

As far as I know, some traffic corp use regular cars for patrolling so they can observe normal driving standards.

monument

Maybe using more unmarked cars for traffic is part of the drive to clamp down on all road offences? (the one the Indo wrote up as a drive to get cyclists)

CramCycle

grizzly_beer wrote: »

also *I think* they drove around past me again while I was studiously obeying the law

They often do that to check up on you, if they seen you do anything wrong the second time, then your in real trouble.

amused2death

There is something about the Irish where we just don't get all these road regulations. L drivers with no fully qualified drive with them and then there is the red light jumpers. Aside from the obvious contempt for the safety of other road users and themselves what part of the safety issue do these people not get? So far this week I know two cyclist knocked down by cars. Road accidents occur because one or other road user fails to follow basic rules of the road.
Thankfully we have enough countryside left to cycle free from city traffic & traffic lights. So where they do exist obey them. You might live longer

Fiskar

I am wondering will the warning work, I see too many cyclists go through red lights as if there is no law for them. In any other country they would receive a summons even for speeding!

leftism

Same thing happened to me a couple of years back. Was cycling out to my girlfriends place in Glasnevin and broke a red light in Phibsboro. To make matters worse, i had the ipod on and was tearing along at a fairly good speed. Didn't notice the flashing lights and siren until i was nearly at the Botanic Gardens.

They took my name, address and details and gave me the same sceal that you got. Never heard a word from them.

I wouldn't worry about it....

Mr Jinx

Lumen wrote: »

I am not a lawyer, but I do not think this act was intended to cover red light jumping by cyclists.

Originally Posted by Non-Fatal Offences Against The Person Act 1997
Endangerment.

13.—(1) A person shall be guilty of an offence who intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of death or serious harm to another.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years or to both.



Its prob more endangering traffic under the road traffic act

Peetrik

Its hypocritical to charge people for laws they ignore themselves. I have seen guards jump red lights on their bikes and I regularly see them taking a leisurely spin down henry st close to where I work.

This is from today
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4653264743_a53ff97f4f.jpg

concussion

The shops are closed - is he perhaps cycling there during a time when vehicular traffic is allowed on the street? In addition, it would only be hypocritical if the particular Gardaí whom you have witnessed breaking the law were also the ones who pulled over the OP.

Nietzschean

Peetrik wrote: »

Its hypocritical to charge people for laws they ignore themselves. I have seen guards jump red lights on their bikes and I regularly see them taking a leisurely spin down henry st close to where I work.

This is from today
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4653264743_a53ff97f4f.jpg

you do see the cops on bikes do some fun things around the city centre, saw two cycling the wrong way down westmorland street a few weeks back.....that said the general level of cycling standards is so low in the city centre its hard to care much....

Peetrik

Fas as I know access is before 10am only, that one was just before 12. Ill see if I can get one just for you tomrrow after 12

concussion wrote: »

it would only be hypocritical if the particular Gardaí whom you have witnessed breaking the law were also the ones who pulled over the OP.

Really? Is it ok for guards to smoke pot as long as they arnt in narcotics dept?
Personally I find it would find it as hypocritical as theoretically hypocricical as them letting fellow guards off for speeding once they mention they are also guards

concussion

You have it the wrong way round - you're tarring the entire force becuase you saw some individuals breaking a red light.

monument

Peetrik wrote: »

Its hypocritical to charge people for laws they ignore themselves. I have seen guards jump red lights on their bikes and I regularly see them taking a leisurely spin down henry st close to where I work.

This is from today
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4653264743_a53ff97f4f.jpg

:rolleyes:

That's nonsense.

They are not breaking the law, they are exempt from it.

And a "leisurely spin"? It's called patrolling. There's nothing wrong with a garda on a bicycle on an empty pedestrian street like that. There's even nothing wrong with a garda on a bicycle on a busier street.

In fact, there's nothing really wrong with anybody cycling down an empty pedestrian street like that. Even if it's within the hours of the street being pedestrianised, it's a none issue unless a cyclist was flying down the street.

Peetrik

And there I was under the impression the they were only exempt when responding to a call.
Leisurely spin meaning not responding to a call

Yep I fully agree with you, there is nothing wrong with a garda on a bike on an empty st, I also have no problem with a garda jumping a red when its safe to do so.

My only issue would be with being stopped or fined for doing the same

anoble66

well of course the gardai can go through red lights, speed, have no tax, cycle wherever the hell they want - who is going to do them for it? no-one. Flash of the badge and all is fine....so what, its a perk of their jobs.

its pointless comparing the rights you have vs the rights of the garda....and no I am not one..

amused2death

breaches of the law by the public or the gardai are not rights just contempt for the law. As most decent criminals view the law.... it doesn't apply to them... that is, untill someone decides it does, and enforces it without favour.

chakattack

tomasrojo wrote: »

@grizzly_beer, on which bit of the road from Drumcondra to the airport were you being hassled? I found more intimidation recently heading north on the Lower Drumcondra Road (passing the Bishop's house on the opposite side of the road) This always happens when they add a cycling "facility". So I've started using the Iona Road/Hollybank Road/Griffith Park approach to get behind the Millmount House pub to avoid that stretch altogether.

But I'm coming from the west when I do that; wouldn't be much point if you were not.

Are you talking about the bus lane where there is a cycle path (terribly designed and unusable) probably 10m to the left past the raised grassy bank?

I've had this too, particularly from Aircoach drivers who seem to know about the mandatory cycle lane law and therefore think dangerous driving is within their rights and cyclists need to be "educated". I had a very heated "discussion" with one of their drivers who side swiped me in very slow moving traffic where he had no need to pass me.

Reported him to the cops at Griffith Avenue but the guy I spoke with clearly didn't give a **** so I gave up on it.

amused2death

hmmm Training group had an incident with aircoach driver at airport roundabout on Saturday. Driver reportly shouted out to riders "stupid W**kers" seemingly because they stopped infront of his bus at the roundabout junction. The incident will be reported formally to Aircoach.

tomasrojo

Are you talking about the bus lane where there is a cycle path (terribly designed and unusable) probably 10m to the left past the raised grassy bank?

Yeah, that's the place, but the intimidation occurs on both sides -- going north as well as south. I haven't been intimidated cycling there personally, but I walk that way sometimes and have seen Aircoach drivers intimidating cyclists who use the road. I decided to circumvent that stretch as I never liked it anyway.

Incidentally, neither cycle lane is mandatory-use. Both have the wrong signage. As defined in SI 274/1998 they're not "cycle tracks", and only cycle tracks are mandatory.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/si/0274.html

14. (1) A cycle track shall be indicated by traffic sign number RUS 009 or RUS 009A provided in association with traffic sign number RRM 022 (continuous white line) or RRM023 (broken white line) which latter signs may be marked on the right-hand edge of the cycle track or on the right-hand and left-hand edges of the cycle track.

Those cycle "facilities" have a sign like this, as far as I remember:


whereas they should use one of these two signs:

chakattack

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yeah, that's the place, but the intimidation occurs on both sides -- going north as well as south. I haven't been intimidated cycling there personally, but I walk that way sometimes and have seen Aircoach drivers intimidating cyclists who use the road. I decided to circumvent that stretch as I never liked it anyway.

Incidentally, neither cycle lane is mandatory-use. Both have the wrong signage. As defined in SI 274/1998 they're not "cycle tracks", and only cycle tracks are mandatory.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/si/0274.html


Those cycle "facilities" have a sign like this, as far as I remember:


whereas they should use one of these two signs:

Thanks.

So for arguments sake, if there is no sign at a cycle path there is no obligation to use it?

I only use paths which I deem safe anyway but it's good to know these things in case of an accident.

Are lanes with non-continuous markings mandatory?

Stephen_C

Was this law not changed on the first of January? Theres now no longer such a thing as a mandatory cycle lane?? Where cycle lanes/tracks are provided cyclist are no longer obliged to use them. Think the greens brought this in anyway.

Slydice

I'd say the best advice would be to talk to a solicitor if you get the summons and turn up for court on time and be as polite as possible.

The other advice might be to try to keep the cool when yer out cycling. Getting pulled up by the Gardai might be bad but getting dead would be worse. Aggro from motorists ain't worth getting dead over.

tomasrojo

chakattack wrote: »

Thanks.

So for arguments sake, if there is no sign at a cycle path there is no obligation to use it?

I only use paths which I deem safe anyway but it's good to know these things in case of an accident.

Are lanes with non-continuous markings mandatory?

According to the letter of the law, you don't have to use anything that isn't a "cycle track".

tomasrojo

Stephen_C wrote: »

Was this law not changed on the first of January? Theres now no longer such a thing as a mandatory cycle lane?? Where cycle lanes/tracks are provided cyclist are no longer obliged to use them. Think the greens brought this in anyway.

No, it's still on the books, unchanged. Someone mentioned on a recent thread that the legislation to rescind the obligation is in the draft stage now, so hopefully not long now.

Incidentally, "mandatory" cycle tracks are not what you might think they are. Very odd use of language. Currently all cycle tracks must be used by cyclists (not a law that's enforced, as you know). The ones with a continuous white line are "mandatory", but what is meant by this is that motorists must keep out of them, not that the ones with a broken line are optional for cyclists.

IM0

brayblue24 wrote: »

However had it been me you'd have been prosecuted!

I always thought your username was braywheelers based [blue cycling kit], but now I see otherwise

grizzly_beer

tomasrojo wrote: »

@grizzly_beer, on which bit of the road from Drumcondra to the airport were you being hassled? I found more intimidation recently heading north on the Lower Drumcondra Road (passing the Bishop's house on the opposite side of the road) This always happens when they add a cycling "facility". So I've started using the Iona Road/Hollybank Road/Griffith Park approach to get behind the Millmount House pub to avoid that stretch altogether.

But I'm coming from the west when I do that; wouldn't be much point if you were not.

its was on swords road, at the junction with Coolock Lane,

Actually btw does anyone cycle on the finglas road? from phibsborough to finglas town say? Ive found that one of the worst roads for intimidation and dangerous overtaking, beeping etc. from motorists especially buses and taxis. Like these other dangerous roads "cycle lanes" have been provided but they are apallingly bad, just a line painted on the footpath with extremely rough crumbling gravely surface and sign and light posts right in the middle of it at times!

Andrew33

grizzly_beer wrote: »

yesterday I was stopped by 2 cops in a normal car (not a cop car)
admittdley i was stupidly breaking 2 red lights at the time, I was just in a bad mood, tired, slightly lost, it was drizzling and I was fairly pissed off after getting a lot of aggro from motorists on the road from drumcondra to the airport (which is an absolutely horrible road to cycle on btw!)
The gard took my details, name, dob, address, he asked whether i have a driving liscence to which i replied no, but I'd forgotten I actually did just get a provisional one recently, he mentioned something about me getting a court summons at some stage, and I'm pretty sure he mentioned "reckless endangerment" and off he went...

Anyway I'm totally pissing myself about this, anyone have any, experience / advice for this kind of thing? would be much appreciated thanks!!

Aggro from motorists?? why do the vast majority of cyclists try to blame the "monster motorists" for their woes? I love pulling up beside a cyclist who is sitting waiting for the lights to change and having a quick exchange, "howya, hows things? bet your making better time on that than I am in this" The only time I have problems with cyclists is when they put their own lives in danger and expect motorists to bail them out by "giving way" or generally being nice to them! Anyways, you were having a bad day and I hope the guard gives you a break. Stay safe;)

Lumen

Andrew33 wrote: »

Aggro from motorists?? why do the vast majority of cyclists try to blame the "monster motorists" for their woes?

Vast majority?

brayblue24

me@ucd wrote: »

I always thought your username was braywheelers based [blue cycling kit], but now I see otherwise

Ha ha,

Actually it didn't come from work, it's from the football team I support but it's not the first time that's been said (me and my lack of any credible imagination you see)

Chips Lovell

Meant to mention this yesterday, but coming through the Phoenix I saw a guy being flagged down by an unmarked car, which turned the sirens on briefly. I've no idea what he'd done, but combined with the OP's experience and what I saw on Harcourt Street recently, it seems that the cops are being a bit more active on this front.

tomasrojo

grizzly_beer wrote: »

Actually btw does anyone cycle on the finglas road? from phibsborough to finglas town say? Ive found that one of the worst roads for intimidation and dangerous overtaking, beeping etc. from motorists especially buses and taxis. Like these other dangerous roads "cycle lanes" have been provided but they are apallingly bad, just a line painted on the footpath with extremely rough crumbling gravely surface and sign and light posts right in the middle of it at times!

Oddly enough, I ended up on it by accident last Friday for the first time ever. Took a wrong turn heading back from Ballymun Road to Phibsborough. I agree that it's an awful road. I would go another way.

I tried one of the cycle lanes on that road and, as always, I was let down within one minute -- the lane passed behind the yield line of a side road emerging from a business complex. I never, on principle, pass on the wrong side of yield signs of side roads, so back onto the road with me. I was foolish to even try it out.

BumbleB

I nearly got run down by plain clothes police ,one of them pulled out his badge .I was so livid with rage I fooked them to high heaven. Anyhow they were kind of scared of me so they just jumped into the car and sped off.