lighting in attic to prevent pipes freezing ??

kayabram

hi , i was recently asked to do a job for neighbour , last christmas some pipes in her attic burst during the freezing weather which froze the pipe im presuming causing the pipe to burst , now she wants this prevented so asked me is it possible to put a light or something shining on the pipe as to heat it slightly to prevent them from freezing , im guessing a frost stat would be needed to detect when the lights would come on , but has anybody done any job similar ???

Poly

You can get frost protection heaters that kick-in about 1 or 2 degrees. they use them in greenhouses

kayabram

any ideas where??

Poly

kayabram wrote: »

any ideas where??

Woodies, argos, you can get 100w bar heaters just to keep the room slightly above freezing.

Davy

Why not use decent lagging?

Poly

Davy wrote: »

Why not use decent lagging?

You still need a source of heat, to raise the water temp slightly if the incoming water temp is very low.

indie armada

i know of a lot of ppl using frost stats to bring on 150/250 watt infared lamps. usually hung in the attic near the tank using a hanging es porclain lamp holder. little bit crude but cheap and it works.
robus are among many companys doing frostwatchers. cant remenber how much they are but not as exspensive as water damage. in the first two months of this year every wholsaler sold out of porclain lampholders, es infared lamps and frost stats and a lot of ppl waited till it was too late and it became very costly for them.

paddy147

Davy wrote: »

Why not use decent lagging?

Yeah,thats what I was thinking,few lengths of pipe insulation that only coats 80 cents -1 euro a meter,a good decent lagging jacket of water tank anti freeze blanket and job done.Can be got from any hald deecent DIY super store or builders providers.


And you dont waste money on a leccy bll too.

An attic breathes so leccy light heaters in the attic will be fairly useless and just ramp up the leccy bill.

Randyleprechaun

Those heaters(frost watchers and simillar) come on at 5 degrees, which means that in most attics/pumphouses they'd be on at night for quite a bit of the year.

I installed one a while back in a small pump house which had naff all insulation in the walls/doors etc so was cold quite a bit. I put another frost stat on the supply to it and set that one to 0 degrees roughly.

Seems to be doing the job. It didn't freeze all through the cold snap there at Christmas.

They are a nice handy unit though for relatively low cost.

Have used the 250W IR lamps hung over water tanks quite a bit too and they will at least stop the connection at the ball cock from freezing.

indie armada

i think the frost watchers are about 26-30 euro plus vat so not that exspensive.if fitted in the attic i presume they need a fused spur so can that be taken from a lighting circut or would it have to be a socket circut.

kayabram

thanks for all your advice guys , great help , ended up getting one of the frost watch heaters and putting that in the attic

Randyleprechaun

Keep an eye on the Electricity Bill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

M cebee

yah .the temperature in the attic wont rise much so frost stat will keep 'calling for heat'

Randyleprechaun

I'd advise that you put another frost stat on the feed to the frost watcher. Set it to zero degrees and this will not allow the internal stat in the heater to turn on the heater at five degrees(which is what it is set to(and cannot be changed)).

If you dont, I'd say you're going to see a dramatic rise in the leccy bill as that heater will be ON more than it's OFF.

By the by, won't that heater find it hard to raise the temperature of a space as big as an attic, ie. it will find it hard to focus any heat on the piping etc.

Froststop

Davy wrote: »

Why not use decent lagging?

80% of burst pipes were insulated.

Froststop

M cebee wrote: »

yah .the temperature in the attic wont rise much so frost stat will keep 'calling for heat'

If the attic temp won't rise much, how is it going to stop pipes freezing?

Froststop

Poly wrote: »

You can get frost protection heaters that kick-in about 1 or 2 degrees. they use them in greenhouses

Exactly! They are designed for greenhouses. They are not to be put into a dusty or damp environment because they are a fire hazard.

tomdempsey200

What do you think?

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

What do you think?

There's only one way which is used in all colder climates, heat trace cables.

GreeBo

There is no way a light or even a bloody rad would keep my attic warm, sure its a cold zone, with direct ventilation to the outside, no heatsource and no insulation of its own.
The air is constantly changing, there is nothing in there to heat up, so how a halogen heater, unless its a foot from a pipe, is going to do anything I dont know.
Even if it is heating the pipe underneath, if the water isnt moving thats no use, the rest will freeze. If it is moving then it wont freeze anyway.

Get some good pipe insulation, double wrap it if you want, make sure you insulate around corners and dont insulate under the tank and you will be fine.

gctest50

Heating trace cable is what you really want - the outer sheathing on some is a bit weak though ( some Raychem stuff )

Just works - no black magic and incantations - provided no power cuts obv.

Froststop

GreeBo wrote: »

There is no way a light or even a bloody rad would keep my attic warm, sure its a cold zone, with direct ventilation to the outside, no heatsource and no insulation of its own.

Correct! Heat generated goes straight out through vents, felt & slate.

GreeBo wrote: »

The air is constantly changing, there is nothing in there to heat up, so how a halogen heater, unless its a foot from a pipe, is going to do anything I dont know.

When pipe run across attic you can't protect all pipe work.

GreeBo wrote: »

Even if it is heating the pipe underneath, if the water isnt moving thats no use, the rest will freeze. If it is moving then it wont freeze anyway.

Running water will freeze eventually. However it's unlikely unless constant freezing takes place and depends on the flow rate.

GreeBo wrote: »

Get some good pipe insulation, double wrap it if you want, make sure you insulate around corners and dont insulate under the tank and you will be fine.

Unfortunately from experience most pipe work if repaired after the last cold spells were insulated. Take Armaflex which is the black pipe insulation, 19mm thick is only rated for 72hrs when subjected to constant freezing.

Froststop

gctest50 wrote: »

Heating trace cable is what you really want - the outer sheathing on some is a bit weak though ( some Raychem stuff )

Just works - no black magic and incantations - provided no power cuts obv.

Raychem is very expensive, but better quality cables are available for much less. However a good controller is also needed.

Froststop

IMO SEAI will have alot to answer for if we get another cold spell due to home being insulated to a higher grade. We like to keep the heat in but it has it's draw backs.

GreeBo

Froststop wrote: »

When pipe run across attic you can't protect all pipe work.



Running water will freeze eventually. However it's unlikely unless constant freezing takes place and depends on the flow rate.



Unfortunately from experience most pipe work if repaired after the last cold spells were insulated. Take Armaflex which is the black pipe insulation, 19mm thick is only rated for 72hrs when subjected to constant freezing.

Unless its hidden in the floor/ceiling you should be able to get at it. If it its in the floor it should be surrounded by insulation anyway and be on the warm side.

Running water will freeze eventually alright, but it has to be *very* cold, Niagara froze last week, but it was -30C.

Were they "properly" insulated though?
I see lots of old houses with a bit of fibreglass wrapped around the copper pipes...compare that to 1inch foam, taped at seams and all joints and I think a modern house in this country shouldnt have any issues unless we get an unheard of prolonged cold spell.

tomdempsey200

Froststop wrote: »

IMO SEAI will have alot to answer for if we get another cold spell due to home being insulated to a higher grade. We like to keep the heat in but it has it's draw backs.

no they wont

you're being silly

Froststop

GreeBo wrote: »

Were they "properly" insulated though?
I see lots of old houses with a bit of fibreglass wrapped around the copper pipes...compare that to 1inch foam, taped at seams and all joints and I think a modern house in this country shouldnt have any issues unless we get an unheard of prolonged cold spell.

They were insulated with pipe insulation, a lot with that cheap Aero tube and some with Armaflex. We had one with foil back insulation. I'm plumbing with over 20 yrs and always thought if the pipes were insulated they would not freeze until I saw what was happening during the 2010 cold spells. Normal winters should not be a problem, but if we get another 2010, there will be damage done again. At the end of the day we all have to pay for the cost.

I have temp monitoring in my attic. If the day time temp is 8 degrees or less and it freezes at night, then with 19mm thick armaflex my pipe temps are as low as 3 degrees above outside night time temp, which switches on my pipe work heat trace system.

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

no they wont

you're being silly

Do you think getting your cavities pumped and having 18 inches of insulation in your attic offers higher protection to pipe work?

GreeBo

Froststop wrote: »

Do you think getting your cavities pumped and having 18 inches of insulation in your attic offers higher protection to pipe work?

No, but its not up to SEAI to ensure that your builder knows to insulate your pipe work where its exposed.

Shoddy building practices regarding home insulation meant that shoddy practices regarding pipework were overlooked.

Fixing crappy house insulation should still be done, in some cases it means you need to upgrade pipe insulation, this is not a good enough reason to not do it...

tomdempsey200

Froststop wrote: »

Do you think getting your cavities pumped and having 18 inches of insulation in your attic offers higher protection to pipe work?

..seai insulate all attic pipework and water tanks for a start

..pumping walls and attic insulation is also a separate issue to protecting vulnerable pipework

Froststop

GreeBo wrote: »

No, but its not up to SEAI to ensure that your builder knows to insulate your pipe work where its exposed.

Builders have nothing to do with pipe insulating.

GreeBo wrote: »

Shoddy building practices regarding home insulation meant that shoddy practices regarding pipework were overlooked.

I'm not talking about shoddy practices, I'm talking about insulating to higher grades or re-insulating existing attics with more insulation.

GreeBo wrote: »

Fixing crappy house insulation should still be done, in some cases it means you need to upgrade pipe insulation, this is not a good enough reason to not do it...

Most insulation companies are insulating pipe work when they insulate the attic, but are only using the cheap Aero tube on pipe work.

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

..seai insulate all attic pipework and water tanks for a start

Insulating pipe work with Aero tube, it's only fit for keeping concrete off pipe work under the floor of a house. Tanks are being insulated with those black kits which cause the tank to sweat which runs down the outside wall of the tank onto your timber base.

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

..pumping walls and attic insulation is also a separate issue to protecting vulnerable pipework

The more attic insulation the higher the risk of pipe work freezing unless you insulate up under the felt and slate. They are also putting extra air vents along sofits (2" vents every 8"-12") making attics colder. I have 60 of them on each side of mine, 120 total as well as the 16 existing one's.

GreeBo

Froststop wrote: »

The more attic insulation the higher the risk of pipe work freezing unless you insulate up under the felt and slate. They are also putting extra air vents along sofits (2" vents every 8"-12") making attics colder. I have 60 of them on each side of mine, 120 total as well as the 16 existing one's.

So is the problem your extra insulation or the lack of protection for pipework?
Again, you cant blame SEAI for increasing the levels of insulation, just because there are some knock-on effects.

Froststop

GreeBo wrote: »

So is the problem your extra insulation or the lack of protection for pipework?
Again, you cant blame SEAI for increasing the levels of insulation, just because there are some knock-on effects.

The more insulation in the attic, the less heat loss through ceilings, the colder the attic is. The houses with most damage during 2010 were newer houses with better insulation levels.

Insulation companies and SEAI IMO have not considered the knock on effects which are serious knock on effects when thousands of Euros worth of flood damage is caused and they did not inform customers of the potential problems before the insulation upgrade is carried out, some home owners who got attics insulated under grant schemes were told it saves on heating bills (which is good) & improves protection against freezing pipes (which it does not).

GreeBo

Froststop wrote: »

The more insulation in the attic, the less heat loss through ceilings, the colder the attic is. The houses with most damage during 2010 were newer houses with better insulation levels.

Insulation companies and SEAI IMO have not considered the knock on effects which are serious knock on effects when thousands of Euros worth of flood damage is caused and they did not inform customers of the potential problems before the insulation upgrade is carried out, some home owners who got attics insulated under grant schemes were told it saves on heating bills (which is good) & improves protection against freezing pipes (which it does not).

Which is why I said that the problem lies with whomever did the work, not SEAI.

You have a problem with SEAI, imo preventing burst pipes is not their remit.
Do you have any documentation that shows SEAI saying it protects against freezing pipes? I've never seen that mentioned.

Froststop

GreeBo wrote: »

Which is why I said that the problem lies with whomever did the work, not SEAI.

You have a problem with SEAI, imo preventing burst pipes is not their remit.
Do you have any documentation that shows SEAI saying it protects against freezing pipes? I've never seen that mentioned.

I didn't say they mention it, or that I have a problem with SEAI.

People are getting the wrong idea that insulating attics & pipe work will prevent freezing.

If you look back the post's, I said,
"IMO SEAI will have a lot to answer for if we get another cold spell due to home being insulated to a higher grade. We like to keep the heat in but it has it's draw backs".

SEAI advise to insulate cavities & attics (which is a good thing for various reasons) but they are not considering/advising the potential knock on effect.

IMO there's not much point in advising or doing something which could potentially cause a bigger problem in the long run, & if you do, then people should be advised. It's too late when water's coming down through the ceiling and the new insulation in the attic has to be replaced also.

tomdempsey200

maybe i'm confused here


i was referring to warmer homes where they do a thorough job of insulating pipes and tanks in attic as well as insulating house/attic



now if it's the case that venting and insulating the attic/house is done in isolation resulting in freezing pipes ...well if it's not part of the work schedule the customer should at least be notified of the risk

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

maybe i'm confused here

i was referring to warmer homes where they do a thorough job of insulating pipes and tanks in attic as well as insulating house/attic

That's fine where a good job is done to keep in the heat and save on bills, but insulating pipes does not guarantee against freezing and too many home owners think they are safe after getting the job done. How they come to this conclusion I don't know. I have seen attic pipe work being re-insulated with aero tube where a higher grade insulation had been removed. I asked the home owner why & they said it's supposed to be done to SEAI spec. This is probably because the spec is not clear enough and suggests only insulation thickness rather than insulation brand or type.
IMO that house is now at a higher risk of having frozen/burst pipes if we get another 2010.

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

now if it's the case that venting and insulating the attic/house is done in isolation resulting in freezing pipes ...well if it's not part of the work schedule the customer should at least be notified of the risk

I agree! this is the point I'm trying to make, insulating the attic & cavities makes sense for economical reasons, fitting pipe insulation is included in the work schedule through SEAI and their contractors, even though I refused to allow them touch my pipe work. But when the attic is going to be colder, there is still a risk of freezing pipes. People are not being advised that they should still to take steps to protect pipe work.

Doubling up on pipe insulation may provide an extra day or two of protection.
After 48-72hrs depending on constant freezing attic temps, pipes are at risk no matter what insulation is fitted and once they freeze, it depends on how fast the thawing process takes place in order to have a burst. This is why in estates around the country in 2010, identical houses experienced some suffering from a frozen pipes, some having burst pipes while others had none. It all depends on the house, how long freezing attic temps last, prevailing winds in the vents, etc. In fact a lot who escaped, may have done so because their mains was frozen coming into the house, resulting in tanks and pipe work being drained after the first day or two.

tomdempsey200

Froststop wrote: »

That's fine where a good job is done to keep in the heat and save on bills, but insulating pipes does not guarantee against freezing and too many home owners think they are safe after getting the job done. How they come to this conclusion I don't know. I have seen attic pipe work being re-insulated with aero tube where a higher grade insulation had been removed. I asked the home owner why & they said it's supposed to be done to SEAI spec. This is probably because the spec is not clear enough and suggests only insulation thickness rather than insulation brand or type.
IMO that house is now at a higher risk of having frozen/burst pipes if we get another 2010.



I agree! this is the point I'm trying to make, insulating the attic & cavities makes sense for economical reasons, fitting pipe insulation is included in the work schedule through SEAI and their contractors, even though I refused to allow them touch my pipe work. But when the attic is going to be colder, there is still a risk of freezing pipes. People are not being advised that they should still to take steps to protect pipe work.

Doubling up on pipe insulation may provide an extra day or two of protection.
After 48-72hrs depending on constant freezing attic temps, pipes are at risk no matter what insulation is fitted and once they freeze, it depends on how fast the thawing process takes place in order to have a burst. This is why in estates around the country in 2010, identical houses experienced some suffering from a frozen pipes, some having burst pipes while others had none. It all depends on the house, how long freezing attic temps last, prevailing winds in the vents, etc. In fact a lot who escaped, may have done so because their mains was frozen coming into the house, resulting in tanks and pipe work being drained after the first day or two.

have there been instances of burst pipework after the seai contractors have insulated pipework and tanks? or not?

they seem to do a very thorough job on the warmer homes scheme anyhow

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

have there been instances of burst pipework after the seai contractors have insulated pipework and tanks? or not?

they seem to do a very thorough job on the warmer homes scheme anyhow

I have come across houses in 2010 with burst pipes and over 12" of attic insulation with pipe work insulated with 22mm wall insulation as per SEAI spec. I can't say if it was done when building or if SEAI contractors did it after it was built.

They do a good job, don't get me wrong, they are going by what SEAI recommend/spec, They did a good job in my own house. The problem is home owners don't realise they are still be at risk. I just see potential problems after seeing what happened back in 2010. Up until then I always though if you lag a pipe it would be OK, especially indoors.

tomdempsey200

Froststop wrote: »

I have come across houses in 2010 with burst pipes and over 12" of attic insulation with pipe work insulated with 22mm wall insulation as per SEAI spec. I can't say if it was done when building or if SEAI contractors did it after it was built.

They do a good job, don't get me wrong, they are going by what SEAI recommend/spec, They did a good job in my own house. The problem is home owners don't realise they are still be at risk. I just see potential problems after seeing what happened back in 2010. Up until then I always though if you lag a pipe it would be OK, especially indoors.

ok but do you have any evidence of the risk after the seai?


such as customer burst pipes

i'd certainly be surprised based on what i saw...now i'm only a electrician so..:)

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

ok but do you have any evidence of the risk after the seai?


such as customer burst pipes

i'd certainly be surprised based on what i saw...now i'm only a electrician so..:)

I am going by what I saw when repairing burst pipes during 2010. Some 22mm thick pipe insulation and +12" of attic insulation which is as per SEAI spec, so it's doesn't matter who did the insulating. Black plastic tank insulation kits with condensation streaming down the outside of the tank onto timber tank supports, which will rot in time, as per SEAI spec. SEAI spec/regs are not all their cracked up to be.

One of the top 5 Inspection findings by SEAI inspectors is poor quality pipe insulation during 2011 which is after the cold spells. I believe this is to do with SEAI not specifying lagging type, if they only specify thickness the companies will use what ever they can buy on the cheap.

Have you evidence to suggest that a home with an SEAI regulation insulation job will not ever have frozen pipes?