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Government to sell VHI

«1

Comments

  • #2
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    "Prior to its sale the State is to make a substantial capital investment in VHI to help it attain the solvency levels"

    What a shower of crooks


  • #3
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    'At a briefing at Government Buildings, officials from the Department of Health said it did not expect premiums to change, or the 900 jobs at VHI to be affected.'

    Wow - did he say this with a straight face? How can they say that, will prices stay the same for the next 10 years - what a stupid thing to say.


  • #4
    Banned Account
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Banned Account


    Hooray - NAMA for sick people.


    What the fcuk is wrong with this country that everything we do requires a capital injection - the whole thing is a poxy joke - scew up the private healthcare market with a ridiculous attempt at risk equalisation, when this doesn't work, introduce a levy, then we find out that the VHI is under capitalised - should have kept all that cash they wasted sponsoring Cul Camps for Kids - tossers.


  • #5
    omahaid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭omahaid


    To be honest, I'm not entirely keen in privatizing all of our private health insurance. Still nervous after selling Eircom...


  • #6
    laoisfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,298 ✭✭✭laoisfan


    DidierMc wrote: »
    "Prior to its sale the State is to make a substantial capital investment in VHI to help it attain the solvency levels"

    Surely Quinn Healthcare & Vivas would be able to complain about this? What about EU?


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  • #7
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    Not really surprising. They finally realised that they haven't a clue how to run an insurance company so they pay someone to take it off their hands.

    Why not close it down?


  • #8
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    various statements here


  • #9
    Scarab80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    Fitzcaraldo wrote: »
    Hooray - NAMA for sick people.


    What the fcuk is wrong with this country that everything we do requires a capital injection - the whole thing is a poxy joke - scew up the private healthcare market with a ridiculous attempt at risk equalisation, when this doesn't work, introduce a levy, then we find out that the VHI is under capitalised - should have kept all that cash they wasted sponsoring Cul Camps for Kids - tossers.

    VHI never had to maintain solvency levels because it was guaranteed by the state, this is not news. The cash injection will be reflected in the sales price when privatised.

    Risk equalisation is still going ahead, the privatisation is being done in co-junction with the introduction of risk equalisation.

    Not sure how much they are planning to raise from the sale but it's some more cash that we don't have to borrow.


  • #10
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Can someone please tell me where on earth the money is going to come from for this???
    I just don't understand how on earth we can still have access to these amounts of money after all that has happened.


  • #11
    Banned Account
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Banned Account


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    VHI never had to maintain solvency levels because it was guaranteed by the state, this is not news. The cash injection will be reflected in the sales price when privatised.

    Firstly, it's not really good business to have the VHI under capitalised, it should have been run as if it were capable of standing on it's own two feet - otherwise the state is just distorting the market.

    Secondly, the cash injection being reflected in the sale price is of little meaning we will just be putting it in to get it out.
    Scarab80 wrote: »
    Risk equalisation is still going ahead, the privatisation is being done in co-junction with the introduction of risk equalisation.

    I have doubts as to whether or not it will pass a legal challenege to be honest, I think it's a dubious proposition.
    Scarab80 wrote: »
    Not sure how much they are planning to raise from the sale but it's some more cash that we don't have to borrow.

    Had it been run properly in the first place it would be an additional income stream.


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  • #12
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    dan_d wrote: »
    Can someone please tell me where on earth the money is going to come from for this???
    I just don't understand how on earth we can still have access to these amounts of money after all that has happened.

    Money can always be found somewhere when the rich need it.


  • #13
    mathie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭mathie


    dan_d wrote: »
    Can someone please tell me where on earth the money is going to come from for this???I just don't understand how on earth we can still have access to these amounts of money after all that has happened.

    Tax-payers pockets.
    They'll keep pushing, they know we're an apathetic bunch.


  • #14
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Money can always be found somewhere when the rich need it.

    Can you please explain this to me? It seems like a populist statement to me.
    Who are the rich people you're talking about?


  • #15
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    I have doubts as to whether or not it will pass a legal challenege to be honest, I think it's a dubious proposition.

    Risk equalisation is absolutely needed. No doubt the other companies will mount legal challenges to better hold on to their windfall profits, but there is nothing illegal about risk equalisation if it applies to everyone.


  • #16
    Scarab80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    Fitzcaraldo wrote: »
    Firstly, it's not really good business to have the VHI under capitalised, it should have been run as if it were capable of standing on it's own two feet - otherwise the state is just distorting the market.

    Perhaps and that is another good reason for privatisation...
    Fitzcaraldo wrote: »
    Secondly, the cash injection being reflected in the sale price is of little meaning we will just be putting it in to get it out.

    Exactly it's a non-issue.

    Fitzcaraldo wrote: »
    I have doubts as to whether or not it will pass a legal challenege to be honest, I think it's a dubious proposition.

    I don't see what the legal challenge will be, risk equalisation already operates in other European countries so it does not contravene EU law, i couldn't see anything in the constitution banning it either..

    Fitzcaraldo wrote: »
    Had it been run properly in the first place it would be an additional income stream.

    When have state entities ever been run properly?


  • #17
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,375 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    dan_d wrote: »
    Can someone please tell me where on earth the money is going to come from for this???
    Well tax the rich of course! Oh and the banks! It was all their fault anyway!!!


  • #18
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    mathie wrote: »
    Tax-payers pockets.
    They'll keep pushing, they know we're an apathetic bunch.

    I'm a bit of a thicko when it comes to economics, but would the money not come from the ECB in the form of capital investment?
    It would be a short term loan from just before the sale and paid back after as soon as the sale is completed.

    Would that sound normal? Donegalfella? ei.sdraob?


  • #19
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    danman wrote: »
    Can you please explain this to me? It seems like a populist statement to me.
    Who are the rich people you're talking about?

    Whoever VHI is sold to. Some minister's mate no doubt.


  • #20
    Scarab80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    danman wrote: »
    I'm a bit of a thicko when it comes to economics, but would the money not come from the ECB in the form of capital investment?
    It would be a short term loan from just before the sale and paid back after as soon as the sale is completed.

    Would that sound normal? Donegalfella? ei.sdraob?

    The money could easily come from cash reserves, we've got about 23bn in cash reserves at the moment, shouldn't be a problem to divert a few hundred million to the VHI for a few months.


  • #21
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Whoever VHI is sold to. Some minister's mate no doubt.

    Really, you really think that's possible?


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  • #22
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    danman wrote: »
    Really, you really think that's possible?

    It's usually the case anytime we privatise anything. Privatisation is nothing but the asset stripping of the people and the handing over of control to unelected people.


  • #23
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    DidierMc wrote: »
    It's usually the case anytime we privatise anything. Privatisation is nothing but the asset stripping of the people and the handing over of control to unelected people.

    Are you somehow denied the right to buy shares?
    Was there some law enacted that I haven't heard of, that states only ministers friends can buy shares in a floated company?


  • #24
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    DidierMc wrote: »
    It's usually the case anytime we privatise anything. Privatisation is nothing but the asset stripping of the people and the handing over of control to unelected people.

    When did the VHI become an asset?


  • #25
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    danman wrote: »
    Are you somehow denied the right to buy shares?
    Was there some law enacted that I haven't heard of, that states only ministers friends can buy shares in a floated company?

    Yes I am denied the chance to buy shares, I'm not rich you see.


  • #26
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    marco_polo wrote: »
    When did the VHI become an asset?

    Well I'm more referring to the likes of Eircom, Aer Lingus etc

    But if we are going to put a bunch of money into VHI and then give it a bunch of capitalists then it sounds very worrying.


  • #27
    Scarab80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Yes I am denied the chance to buy shares, I'm not rich you see.

    You could pick up a share in Aviva for about €3.50 today if you want.


  • #28
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    You could pick up a share in Aviva for about €3.50 today if you want.

    I'm not a capitalist. I believe in healthcare being in control of the public not sharks out to make a quick buck.


  • #29
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Yes I am denied the chance to buy shares, I'm not rich you see.

    Whether you're rich or not, makes no difference.

    Just because you don't have the money to buy shares, spent mean you don't have the right to buy them.

    Money makes money.

    It's a begrudging attitude that prevails in this country.
    A statement like "money will be found for the rich" warrants a rebuff.

    By the way, I'm not rich either. But I don't begrudge the right of those that can afford to buy shares.


  • #30
    Banned Account
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Banned Account


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    Perhaps and that is another good reason for privatisation...

    Not disagreeing with you on this - just apalled that the state has been caught asleep at the wheel once more. Checks and balances anyone ...?

    Scarab80 wrote: »
    I don't see what the legal challenge will be, risk equalisation already operates in other European countries so it does not contravene EU law, i couldn't see anything in the constitution banning it either..

    There has been a failed challenge already to the Supreme Court and the ECJ, both of which failed, however, there is a distinct possibility that this may be re-visited in the event of privatisation and there will be a much stronger anti-trust element once the dominant player is in the hands of a private company and into the business of profiteering.

    I think it's a terrible commercial decision to penalise smaller players because the bigger player failed in attracting younger customers. Look at it another way, health insurace is voluntary, car insurace is optional. If older drivers were asked to pay an increased premium to subsidise younger drivers, what do you think would be the outcome?

    Once the equalisation begins, premiums will increase for all those who are not with VHI.


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  • #31
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    danman wrote: »
    Whether you're rich or not, makes no difference.

    Just because you don't have the money to buy shares, spent mean you don't have the right to buy them.

    Money makes money.

    It's a begrudging attitude that prevails in this country.
    A statement like "money will be found for the rich" warrants a rebuff.

    By the way, I'm not rich either. But I don't begrudge the right of those that can afford to buy shares.

    Since when did buying shares becoming a right? Only scum buy shares in private healthcare firms.


  • #32
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    The money could easily come from cash reserves, we've got about 23bn in cash reserves at the moment, shouldn't be a problem to divert a few hundred million to the VHI for a few months.

    Surely that money is earmarked for other stuff???Are we just talking more debt here? (I genuinely don't understand how that money can be spared/found).


  • #33
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Yes I am denied the chance to buy shares, I'm not rich you see.
    DidierMc wrote: »
    I'm not a capitalist. I believe in healthcare being in control of the public not sharks out to make a quick buck.

    Perhaps you should become a capitalist, considering you envy what the rich have.

    It won't be handed to you, you know. You have to work to get it. That's capitalism.


  • #34
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    danman wrote: »
    Perhaps you should become a capitalist, considering you envy what the rich have.

    It won't be handed to you, you know. You have to work to get it. That's capitalism.

    Actually it's not. You are implying that equality of opportunity exists.


  • #35
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Since when did buying shares becoming a right? Only scum buy shares in private healthcare firms.

    Don't know where to start with this post, so I'll leave it.....


  • #36
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    danman wrote: »
    ... You have to work to get it. That's capitalism.

    Not so. Capitalism means that your wealth works to make you more wealth.


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  • #37
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    danman wrote: »
    Are you somehow denied the right to buy shares?
    Was there some law enacted that I haven't heard of, that states only ministers friends can buy shares in a floated company?


    no , it would be against ''the brothers'' moral code to buy shares in any filthy capitalist company
    he feels much happier moaning about the poor trampled masses .


  • #38
    Scarab80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    Fitzcaraldo wrote: »
    I think it's a terrible commercial decision to penalise smaller players because the bigger player failed in attracting younger customers. Look at it another way, health insurace is voluntary, car insurace is optional. If older drivers were asked to pay an increased premium to subsidise younger drivers, what do you think would be the outcome?

    Once the equalisation begins, premiums will increase for all those who are not with VHI.

    Of course they will, but that is a completely seperate discussion regarding whether you believe in community rating as opposed to the privatisation of the VHI. I'll happily pay more for my health insurance now to ensure affordable health cover for the elderly and will expect the same from the next generation.

    The private insurers in the market are currently trying to avoid providing cover to older customers, and are making some nice profits at the expense of the VHI who are providing cover for all.

    Your analogy with car insurance only holds true if you equate the right to life with the right to drive.


  • #39
    DidierMc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    danbohan wrote: »
    no , it would be against ''the brothers'' moral code to buy shares in any filthy capitalist company
    he feels much happier moaning about the poor trampled masses .

    Why would I want to profit from families struggling to pay their health costs? I believe in a one tier public health system not a health system based on making the rich richer.


  • #40
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    When do they intend to privatise the VHI, will it be in 2012 or 2013, if by then there will be anew government, I couldn't see the Labour party supporting the privatisation of the VHI.

    If it is privatised one down at least 20 more semi state companies to go.


  • #41
    Scarab80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    dan_d wrote: »
    Surely that money is earmarked for other stuff???Are we just talking more debt here? (I genuinely don't understand how that money can be spared/found).

    The money is there as a security buffer, if we can't go to the markets for a number of months we still have cash to pay the wages - like we were going to skip the May bond auction due to the Greek situation, but the EU reaction managed to calm the bond markets so we went ahead.

    Despite our overall disasterous overall debt and month to month deficit situation we have a lot of liquid funds.


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  • #42
    cson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,498 ✭✭✭✭cson


    I'm a bit surprised the amount of people who've been taken in by our Commie wind up merchant.


  • #43
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    cson wrote: »
    I'm a bit surprised the amount of people who've been taken in by our Commie wind up merchant.

    I did get a bit taken in there... Copped on though. ;)


  • #44
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I'm not a capitalist. I believe in healthcare being in control of the public not sharks out to make a quick buck.

    So anyone who decides to pursue profit is a "shark"?


  • #45
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,733 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    I'd imagine it will be bought for a nominal fee of €1 or so to some company who will in turn have to strip it down to the bare assets and sack about half the staff.


  • #46
    Scarab80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    I'd imagine it will be bought for a nominal fee of €1 or so to some company who will in turn have to strip it down to the bare assets and sack about half the staff.

    What are you basing that on? You watched Wall Street lately or something?


  • #47
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,733 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    What are you basing that on? You watched Wall Street lately or something?

    The customer base has the vast bulk of elderly customers in Ireland, this makes it unattractive for the next 20 years or so until it levels off, can't see anyone wanting to buy it over this time as they will need to pump hundreds of millions in to it to keep it going.


  • #48
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Since when did buying shares becoming a right? Only scum buy shares in private healthcare firms.

    Enough is enough. Please apply for readmission to the forum when you've learned to do more than spout slogans.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #49
    Scarab80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    The customer base has the vast bulk of elderly customers in Ireland, this makes it unattractive for the next 20 years or so until it levels off, can't see anyone wanting to buy it over this time as they will need to pump hundreds of millions in to it to keep it going.

    For the next 20 years VHI will be getting cash transfers from other health insurers for their elderly policy holiders under risk equalisation. Obviously there would be no one who would buy VHI if it weren't for risk equalisation.


  • #50
    Nermal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    Your analogy with car insurance only holds true if you equate the right to life with the right to drive.

    Right to life is not the same as the right to healthcare.


  • #51
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    But the sale of the VHI doesn't actually improve the health servie or affect it in any way?
    Setting aside the fact that we shouldn't have to buy health insurance anyway, given we pay tax to fund the service.......
    I'm just struggling to understand why the Gov would bother doing this.


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