I don't think they understand...

Wendero

I don't think this college understands. They don't understand anything.

They don't understand the effort it takes to get here. They don't understand the fight I and many with me endured just to get the grades to get admitted. They don't appreciate anyone, they appreciate nothing but their own rules. They take pride in being able to strike you down with silly bureaucracy. One of the thing I loved about university when I just got here was the feeling that I was on my own. How wrong I was. Turns out, saving a document in Word 2007 can get you failed. Turns out, being one minute late with an assignment can get you failed. Turns out, assuming that when they tell you that the deadline is May 31 then that's how it should be is stupid (I'm talking about ECDL now for those who don't get it - there will be no more exams before summer). It turns out that proportions and reason are a thing of the past.

Okay, so I'm ranting. I know. But seriously, the economics department and their "zero tolerance" policies regarding late assignments, assignments written in the wrong version of word etc. is stupid. That's my first point.

Many people who fail their assignments are going to drop out and end up flipping burgers. Nothing wrong with flipping burgers, but why when you could have become an economist, accountant or businessman? Zero tolerance is stupid, it "steals" from the society. The irish nation will lose it's intellectual elite because that elite is flipping burgers instead of studying. Because they failed an assignment. Because they didn't save their work in Word 2003.

"Just save your assignment in the right format" - good idea, great idea. But FAIL you when you don't? Not so good idea.
"Just submit in time" - there should be consequences when you don't. But FAIL? Come on...
"Just do the ECDL at the start of the year instead of waiting until the last second" - Smart. But when they say that you have until may 31st to finish it, they should also have time slots to do the exams until may 31st.
"Don't drop out, just repeat the year" - and pay fees? Good idea, will probably be profitable in the long run. But many people won't, so that's a fact.

Just to make one thing clear: I have not failed the year. I did fail an assignment I was late with, but that's about it. Also, I'm starting to fear I failed EC105A because I didn't put in my student number the right way on the MCQ answer sheet. They can still see that it's my answers, but bureaucracy means they won't care. You did one mistake (or might have done one mistake), they fail you. Who cares that you studied for the exam, that you did your best? This is academia, and you better follow the rules. Every single rule. Else, they fail you.

Zero tolerance looks great on the paper, but it creates disaster in practice. It creates a sense of helplessness, that even if you do everything right, one single mistake, a letter or number wrong somewhere, will cause all your efforts to be in vain. And we all do mistakes.

Does anyone know if it's somehow possible to transfer to business if you've done a minor in that subject (I'm a finance and economics student)? If anyone has any info, please let me know. I'm sick and tired of the economics department. Which is a shame, because I love economics. It's my passion really, strange as it sounds. In high school, I stayed after school sometimes three hours, sitting in the classroom just studying economics. Not any school related stuff, just for the fun of it. Because it's my passion. But business is alright, and I got an extremely good impression of the business teachers. They actually care about you, they want you to succeed and they know that there can be more than one correct answer. They, at least the ones that I have seen, seem to like it when students note something that they didn't say. It's fun, it shows that the students are thinking. In economics, most teachers take it as a rebellion whenever you tell them that what they say doesn't work in practice.

I'm not trying to trashtalk any specific teacher, and to be fair, I got many good memories from the year too. It certainly was better going here than staying at home. It's just that, I love economics, and I want to be able to love my economics education as well. And for the above stated reasons, I can't. I fought real hard to get here, and no-one in the university administration seems to appreciate or understand that. At least that's how it seems. I don't think they understand...

/John

banquo

Wendero wrote: »

Because they didn't save their work in Word 2003.
"Just save your assignment in the right format" -

Remind me to sort that out next year.

Wendero

Hehe, sure. Seriously, just get Word 2007 on the computers. That's all they need. Overall, I just think they should be more flexible and try to think of the students who spent thousands of hours studying to get here.

banquo

I recommend a healthy dose of Ken Robinson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

banquo

This also may help:

"The best thing for being sad is to learn something. That is the only thing that never fails.
You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies; you may lie awake at night listening to the disorder of your veins; you may miss your only love; you may see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics; or know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser minds.

There is only one thing for it then -- to learn. Learn why the world wags and what wags it.
That is the only thing which the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, never be tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never dream of regretting."

-- The Once and Future King
T. H. White

funky penguin

This might sound drastic, but have you considered transferring colleges?

People have switched for less valid reasons. You say you have a passion for economics, so I strongly suggest you give yourself the best opportunity to shine with the subject.

I understand you probably wanted Maynooth, and it can be such a huge and daunting change - take UCD as an example. Completely different social structure. Not worse, just different.

I'm not telling you to move, just explaining that its an option that could give you the most out of your talents. It can be terribly stifling not having a supportive dept.

Unless the course itself outweighs the dept's flaws. Then I'd stay.

Wendero

That's an idea I guess. Not sure if they would accept me anywhere else, but I may want to look into that.

It's so frustrating when it's not up to you, when you always depend on luck

banquo

Drop into the Academic Advisory Office in Arts Block. It's open most days. They'll be able to talk you through options, and you don't have to take any of them. They are unbelievably helpful and sound in there.

irish_goat

No harm Wendero but you're not acting very mature.

You've had all year to complete the ECDL, it would have taken 5 mins of your time to check when the time slots were.

Saving your assignment in the right format is a bit of a bitch but I dunno how many times we've been reminded about it this year, again, even if you typed it up at home on a later version of word it would only have taken a few seconds to save it in the right format. It's not the lecturer's fault the college only uses Word 2003 and if it's in the wrong format they can't access it so have no option but to give you 0%.

And I 100% agree with giving no marks for a late assignment. We're given deadlines in plenty of time and there'd be no point setting a deadline if it was ok to just submit after it anyway. Good luck in a future job if decide to submit all your work late.

With regards to your MCQ paper, one of the lecuteres said that if you mess up your student number the computer won't read it properly and they'll just have to manually enter it themselves.

I'm not meaning to be ranty but the lackadaisical attitude of students(not just you) these days is a bit of a joke.

Wendero

To be clear, I'm disappointed in myself too. Very disappointed. I figure they should have something like the Business department policy on late assignments - one day late, 10 % off. 2 days late, 20 % off etc.

I don't think I made myself clear on the ECDL stuff: I should have done it earlier. But they said that we have until may 31st, yet there won't be any more time slots before may 31st. Don't you think they should have told us they weren't going to put up any more time slots after may 20, or whenever the last exam was? Okay, so, I'm doing things in the last minute. But they should still have told us about that. I would have finished it all by now, had they only put up more slots.

Yes, on the mid-term MCQ they have to go it through manually to give you the right grade if you screw up. But on the final exam they won't, you'll just fail it. At least that's how it works in microeconomics (which is not the subject where I may have done that wrong).

Oh, and as for future job... you have to finish by the deadline, but they'll hardly fire you (equivalent of giving you 0 %) for being late once.

mp3guy

Wendero wrote: »

They don't understand the effort it takes to get here. They don't understand the fight I and many with me endured just to get the grades to get admitted. They don't appreciate anyone, they appreciate nothing but their own rules. They take pride in being able to strike you down with silly bureaucracy. One of the thing I loved about university when I just got here was the feeling that I was on my own. How wrong I was. Turns out, saving a document in Word 2007 can get you failed. Turns out, being one minute late with an assignment can get you failed. Turns out, assuming that when they tell you that the deadline is May 31 then that's how it should be is stupid (I'm talking about ECDL now for those who don't get it - there will be no more exams before summer). It turns out that proportions and reason are a thing of the past.

Many people who fail their assignments are going to drop out and end up flipping burgers. Nothing wrong with flipping burgers, but why when you could have become an economist, accountant or businessman? Zero tolerance is stupid, it "steals" from the society. The irish nation will lose it's intellectual elite because that elite is flipping burgers instead of studying. Because they failed an assignment. Because they didn't save their work in Word 2003.


/John

Deadlines are deadlines, you're always given plenty of notice, no sympathy there.

I agree being failed over the wrong file format is ridiculous.

And with regards to repeating you only have to repeat the modules you failed, which is basically part time. And you only pay for the modules you failed. So between one and two thousand. Easily manageable especially since you have the entire year to get that cash together.

Rozabeez

Wendero, other than echoing what the others have said, I must ask you not to tar the entire university with the same brush due to a bad experience with the Economics department.

Throughout my 3 years in Maynooth, if I've had any problems with assignments or exams - the departments and Academic advisory office have been so incredibly helpful. Yes, I've been unhappy in Maynooth at times, and I am glad to be finished, but I won't say that they don't care, because if they didn't then I wouldn't have made it this far in my degree.

allandanyways

To echo Rozabeez's post, I have nothing bad to say about my departments except for things that cannot be fixed (the understaffing in the English dept for one example).

If assignments are late, that's your own situation (and I use the word situation here very generally, because god knows anything can happen but it's still a personal situation) and if you don't turn an assignment in on time because you forgot it/couldn't be arsed/didn't manage your time correctly or if something more serious and personal happens, that's still not the department's fault

And I do agree with the "late = percentage deduction and then fail if you don't have a legitimate excuse" idea because if someone who just couldn't be arsed doing an essay on time is allowed to submit an essay as late as someone who had a serious issue to deal with that prevented them from doing the essay on time, well I think something is very wrong there.

I think that for a lot of people, reponsibility is a serious problem in college. I have encountered many people in NUIM who expect things to be done for them. The fact is, you have to go looking for things yourself, asking for things yourself and doing and fixing things yourself because everyone has other things to do and although I have to say that in my experience with the depts, they have been very helpful, at the end of the day college should (although not always does) teach you to take responsibility for yourself.

I know I've complained many a time about stuff in Maynooth, but very rarely about departments themselves. I can't account for other departments other than my own, but I know they try extremely hard to take all students into account and they make an incredible effort to keep us all informed of due dates and department policy and IMO, it really is your own fault as a student if you don't make the effort to be aware of them.

banquo

I also agree that being failed over the wrong file format is ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, even if it's the 'wrong' version of Word (sigh), it's done and in on time, even if it takes a little longer to open.

As for the ECDL thing: why would they say that you've until a certain date to do something when it's not possible a week before that date? That's like saying you can hand in your thesis up until May 31st but not mentioning that the building will be closed from May 20th and thus impossible.

ECDL is a stupid course anyway.

AdmaialNimitz

Did you get your Class Rep to being these issues to either your depatment staff-student committee or alternatively to the SU at Union Council? Those entities exist for this very reason.

I have to say that I don't have much sympathy regrding either the ECDL or the Word format issues you've mentioned.

Its completely irresponsible for you to expect to show up at the computer centre and sit the ECDL exams at the drop of a hat, like a poster above said how long would it have taken to check the schedule of exams?

And as for the Word Format issue, the reason they have to be so strict is that as we all know word 2003 is the standard on NUIM machines, and lecturers are rarely admins and so probably cant install the compatability patch. If they cant read it how can they give you anything other than 0? Its exactly like handing up an assignment thats completely illegible...and its not like you were never warned!!

5Aces

Your in first year son... it only gets worse. next year they start actually expecting you to do some real work. then they expect you to get a job. then you have a kid. then you cant afford to have that midlife crisis. your wife stops showing you a good time. take a deep breath and get on with it.

banquo

I see it as handing up something that's legible on the vast majority of computers. Saving something into MS2003 format doesn't always come out the way you want it, and doesn't always open properly either (though it does in most cases). If the new version came out just this year then I'd be fine with it. But the version they're using is seven years old. You couldn't buy that version today if you tried. If you have bought a laptop or pc at anytime in the last three years then it's likely that the newer version of Office came with it. And if you think getting lecturers to install the compatability patch is hard, try explaining to digital immigrants like many mature students the concept behind saving a document in compatability mode. I used to teach computers to grownups in NALA and, believe me, you need to keep things as straightforward as humanely possible.

Although I hear that they're installing Windows 7 this summer on campus PCs, which is win.

As for the ECDL: Many training centres let you just ring a day or two in advance and book a time at your convenience. Most ECDL exams are taken through a program that simulates the Office suite and takes you through the different sections. It's automated. You just need someone to close the door behind you and make sure that you haven't brought a load of books in there with you.

I also think it would have made far mor sense to make the last possible day that you have to complete it by the last day you could sit the exam. In fairness, it's more confusing than it needs to be. But nothing beats actually trying to enrol for the ECDl course. Nision36 will tell you a great story about that.

Thwip!

with regards to the word issue, in our english course we were never once threatened with failure, when we handed up assignments and they turned out to be in the wrong format the lecturer jsut emailed them to a seperate computer which had a different version of word on it

banquo

jpcarlow wrote: »

with regards to the word issue, in our english course we were never once threatened with failure, when we handed up assignments and they turned out to be in the wrong format the lecturer jsut emailed them to a seperate computer which had a different version of word on it

Same, except they said ''Sorry Rob, wrong version. Can you email me a compatible version'', or basically words to that effect. Very good about it.

K4t

Economics Dept is incredibly strict. Learnt my lesson in semester 1 regarding submission deadlines and f**king file types. Once you get used to it though, it does make you more aware of deadlines etc. Have never been late with an assignment for any dept. And this is from a guy who attended less than ten lectures all semester. Get through this year, John, and you'll know not to get on the wrong side of that dept next year!

Wendero

Okay, I'm not coming off as I wanted to. College should demand that you take responsibility, but they should also make rules that work and punishment that is in proportion to what you have done wrong.

Like the business department does is perfect I think. They got rules, but you can talk with them. And they WANT you to succeed. I don't demand the teachers to do the work for me, but I don't want it all to end just because I may do a slight mistake from time to time.

The rules of the economics department looks good on paper. But I'm not made out of paper!

I have always saved the files in the right format, so that hasn't been a problem for me. I have been late with assignments, and that should be punished. Just not with Fail. Cap the grade, sure. 10 % reduction (a la business department style), sure. But fail is too harsch. When you don't do your work, you should be punished. I don't want the professors to be nannys, I want them to be reasonably fair and I expect to be able to communicate with them. I want teachers who are interested in the practical consequences of their rules, not only in how they look on paper.

I got a lot of good things to say about NUIM and I don't regret going here. And I don't judge the whole university based on the economics department, as I said I like the business teachers.

I'm very disappointed in myself for not having done better. But that doesn't change anything really. I can study, I just need to feel that my studying will make a difference, and that such a silly thing as word 2007 won't cause everything I do to be in vain.

I've never been lazy. I graduated from high school after 2 years instead of 3. About 1/1000 students manage to do that. I had high grades too; I was admitted to Uppsala University (best university in Sweden), but I had heard many bad things about their economics department (plus I sort of wanted an adventure). Things that turned out to be just as bad in Maynooth unfortunately. I don't regret going here, but if the university understood the effort it takes to get here, maybe they wouldn't judge you and fail you when you do small mistakes. Maybe they would try to keep you up and keep you going.

It will get worst in second year, maybe. But the studying in itself isn't what's worrying me (though some things can be hard). It's the risk of stumbling when you're so close to the finish line.

Arfan

In regards to the Word issue while I don't know the specifics of the college licenses in general how it works is there will be a volume license for a particular type of office. That office may be Enterprise 2003, Professional Plus 2007 or whatever. They can install this on however many machines they're licensed for, say 300. That then will be the only Office they have, the only version they're allowed to have.

Upgrading to 2007 would require that they buy a new volume license which, due to cost, would probably mean dropping the 2003 license. Now the computer center has to upgrade everyone in the college to 2007. Most businesses won't even consider upgrading unless they absolutely have to. I work with companies still using Office 2000 regularly.

mp3guy

All the computer science PCs have office 2007

Liber8or

Arfan wrote: »

In regards to the Word issue while I don't know the specifics of the college licenses in general how it works is there will be a volume license for a particular type of office. That office may be Enterprise 2003, Professional Plus 2007 or whatever. They can install this on however many machines they're licensed for, say 300. That then will be the only Office they have, the only version they're allowed to have.

Upgrading to 2007 would require that they buy a new volume license which, due to cost, would probably mean dropping the 2003 license. Now the computer center has to upgrade everyone in the college to 2007. Most businesses won't even consider upgrading unless they absolutely have to. I work with companies still using Office 2000 regularly.

Exactly. Do not waste College funding on upgrading all the computers to 'the latest' version which is clearly better and more awesome /sarcasm. Word 2003 is acceptable, infact its perfect for what we need as students. I use 2007 and I am a history student yet I manage to submit my essays in the correct format; why - because I was told to do so.

What happens when Microsoft release Office 2011 for example? And everyone starts using that and then we will all be told to save the file as a 2007 file? Its a continuous loop of expenditure. Stick with 2003 and get on with it. Stop moaning about petty problems, seriously, if worrying about a file type is your biggest concern then you have it pretty handy in life.

Liber8or

On the topic of Departmental rules; every Department is different and varies with their code of conduct, etc.
The Economics department may be tough as nails on assignments being on time, where as UCD might be more lenient. But, I am sure UCD have their own inconvenient rules that contrast Maynooth's. Its all about learning OP. You are now aware of these rules on lateness and format, etc. So make sure it doesn't happen again. Sometimes we all need a kick up the arse to wake up - i know I have and it helped me a lot. Keeps you focused. Adapt and adhere to rules, thats all you need to do.

You should check out the History department, their rules change week in, week out. I just don't give them an opportunity to come down on me anymore, because its not worth it.

partyguinness

In fairness, NUI Maynooth is hardly an educational and intellectual powerhouse..so pettiness and small minded pen pushers is to be expected. This is Ireland afterall so get used to it.

Seriously though, saving a doc in Word 2003 and not 2007...WTF....

Arfan

mp3guy wrote: »

All the computer science PCs have office 2007

The computer Science department handles its own PCs and has its own technicians. It needs them considering the crap CS students regularly pull.

mp3guy

Arfan wrote: »

The computer Science department handles its own PCs and has its own technicians. It needs them considering the crap CS students regularly pull.

Like?

Arfan

mp3guy wrote: »

Like?

Well, this one time, a student tried to install Gnome...

XxMCRxBabyxX

Wendero wrote: »

I don't think I made myself clear on the ECDL stuff: I should have done it earlier. But they said that we have until may 31st, yet there won't be any more time slots before may 31st. Don't you think they should have told us they weren't going to put up any more time slots after may 20, or whenever the last exam was? Okay, so, I'm doing things in the last minute. But they should still have told us about that. I would have finished it all by now, had they only put up more slots.

for the record, I think it's important to note that the economics department are not the ones who organise ECDL so they can give any deadline they want. It's up to the students to see when the dates for ECDL exams are and sort themselves out accordingly. And iirc the ECDL dept did say they were adding more dates

mp3guy

Arfan wrote: »

Well, this one time, a student tried to install Gnome...

The pcs all run Ubuntu and the default desktop environment is gnome.

Arfan

This is why I failed CS335 Heuristic Humour.

mp3guy

CS335 is actually Software Process & Software Engineering :P