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Moral Dilemma!
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24-05-2010 9:49am#1
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its tuff sh1te,thems the rules........
not a nice way to learn a rule but one sure thing is all 4 of ye and everyone in the club that will hear of it or talk about it now know the rule too
had a similar experience myself once when a guy I played raked part a bunker before playing a shot from it....
I had no pleasure in telling him he had lost the hole but as stated earlier the onus is on you to claim the hole or you are breaking the rules,
he took it well anyway and anyone who's plays golf regular enough will understand the system,I take on board the fact it's juveniles involved.
on a similar point,playing another day and a guy I was playing was trying to play a shot from under a tree,the tree was 20feet high but was tied down by a big rope and a stake.....
he had relief if he wanted it, he proceeded to f**k up the shot and lose the hole
Should I have told him,would you have told him......
I know one sisuation is breaking the rules the latter isn't,but I'd leave the conscience in the locker room if I'm serious about winning
I told him after in the bar without rubbing it in, so he knew he had relief the next time,
ignorance playing good golf and not knowing the rules is no excuse for breaking them,0 -
its tuff sh1te,thems the rules........
not a nice way to learn a rule but one sure thing is all 4 of ye and everyone in the club that will hear of it or talk about it now know the rule too
had a similar experience myself once when a guy I played raked part a bunker before playing a shot from it....
I had no pleasure in telling him he had lost the hole but as stated earlier the onus is on you to claim the hole or you are breaking the rules,
he took it well anyway and anyone who's plays golf regular enough will understand the system,I take on board the fact it's juveniles involved.
on a similar point,playing another day and a guy I was playing was trying to play a shot from under a tree,the tree was 20feet high but was tied down by a big rope and a stake.....
he had relief if he wanted it, he proceeded to f**k up the shot and lose the hole
Should I have told him,would you have told him......
I know one situation is breaking the rules the latter isn't,but I'd leave the conscience in the locker room if I'm serious about winning
I told him after in the bar without rubbing it in, so he knew he had relief the next time,
playing good golf and ignorancenot knowing the rules is no excuse for breaking them.....again tough on a juvenile but fair !!0 -
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It's the problem in golf at our level as far as I'm concerned. Some people like Daithi (no direct offence intended you understand ) insist on an a la carte view of the rules. Some rules are fine, but some a deemed silly and so they don't uphold them. If you saw someone moving the ball to give themselves a better lie from the rough you would have a problem with it but grounding your club in a hazard might be OK because that rule seems a little silly. You just can't play that way.
I pride myself on knowing the rules quite well. It really gets up my nose when I try to lets say drop way back in line with the flag from a lateral water hazard in a match and my opponent says I can't do that or whatever. I feel like saying to them "Go read the fuppin rules before you enter a competition!". I know the rules and know that I can't touch the line of my putt with my putter. Why should someone else potentially win a hole from me by breaking that rule simply because they didn't bother reading it? That makes no sense.
Recently, I was playing a singles match. I was on the green about 35 feet away for birdie. My opponent was just off the green about 25 feet away for par. I needed to win the hole to stay alive. I took out the flag and while I was standing over my putt, I suddenly heard the click of him chipping. I looked up and saw his ball trickling into the hole. I told him to take it out and replace it because he had played out of turn. He got quite shirty and said that he was off the green and so he should play first - perhaps the most common misconception out there. I told him I had the rules with me if he wanted to read them. He grumpily replaced his ball, I putted to 2 feet and he missed his second chip and I won the hole.
His first chip was magnificent, but I have no sympathy for him because he apparently couldn't be bothered to read the rules of golf before he got into competitive matches. I would not hesitate to correct someone for breaching a rule because I feel it's their business to know the rules if they're in a match. The guy won't do it again either, so in a way I've helped him. What's the difference between my scenario and the OP's? Some will say the touching the line of putt thing is trivial but it still a rule that must be obeyed. So really there is no difference.0 -
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That's interesting. I was playing a friendly round recently with someone, when I got onto the green I marked my ball and just knocked it away with my putter. He said he done the same thing in a comp before and the guy he was playing with pulled him on it and said he had to take a 2 shot penalty. From what you are saying above I would take it that it wasn't a penalty as he wasn't testing the green although I'm not sure how that can be proved, one way of another I won't do it again just to be sure!
Yeah the rule says you have to be testing the green, I had the same thing happen to me in a fourball when I marked my partners ball and rolled it over to his bag (without even looking at it)
The other lads tried to say it was a penalty...
Peter Alis at the weekend made a similiar mistake on air. He pointed out that if a player knocks off a single leaf taking a practice swing he is done for improving his lie. In fact you are not unless you actually are trying to improve your lie. Again hard to "prove" but if you are flailing away like a windmill you are probably guilty
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Out of curiosity, and no offence intended, had he shanked it across the green into a bunker would you have asked him to replay it ? I know the rules give you the option but you know what I mean.
By the way you're dead right about it being the most commonly misunderstood rule.
I fully accept the rules must be adhered to but there's also an arguable case for "in certain instances only" considering the spirit of the rule or at least, in an internal club competition, what your fellow members might think of you. Interclub is obviously different, some a$$holes are looking for a reason to claim holes from the get go in that !!
I'm not suggesting random blatant rule breaking but a little bit of common sense surely can be applied. eg had the op not said anything would any real harm have been done ? Ok, you can argue that the 2 juniors have been educated but its something to ponder IMO.
Certainly if someone pulled me up for a rule breach I would accept it but if it was for something very trivial (in fairness touching the green is probably a step too far) I would probably concede the match and tell him if he wants it that badly he can have it. Alternatively I would never have pulled up someone for a trivial breach - that might make me in breach but it would never be shown that I knew what they did.
The bunker question is an emphatic NO!! I would have advised him that he played out of turn but that I was not availing of my option to have him replay it. He would be in the bunker playing for bogey!! Again, he put himself at a disadvantage for not knowing the rules. In that case, I will use my better knowledge to my advantage.
I know the touching the green thing seems trivial, but if you say "Sure let common sense prevail" then you start an unstoppable argument. What if you let him away with it and on the next hole he accidentally picks up his ball marker absent mindedly without first replacing the ball, realises his mistake and replaces it immediately. When you challenge him, he says "Not to worry, I know exactly where it was before. And sure we already agreed on the last hole that some rules don't really count." Or he brushes sand off the fringe, or pulls out a long thick blade of grass that was just behind his ball, or taps in from a foot without taking out the flag first, etc, etc. Once you agree to waive a rule, no matter how trivial, you firstly break the rules yourself in doing so, and secondly bring a large element of complete guesswork into play as to what rules warrant being followed and which don't.
Isn't it so much easier to simply expect everyone, including yourself, to follow what it says in the tiny little book of rules published by the R&A? And when you get into interclub, you will be kicking yourself when you lose a match for not doing something correctly and being pulled up on it by your opponents, and all because you never bothered to read the rules first?
IMHO, not following the rules is simply lazy. People will disguise it as "using common sense" or "playing within the spirit of the rules" or whatever. They simply don't want to take time out of their day and sit and do something so boring as to read up. Why should I suffer for having taken the time to do so myself? Personally, I find it much easier to just read something and stick to that. No thinking required. 0 -
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Peter Alis at the weekend made a similiar mistake on air. He pointed out that if a player knocks off a single leaf taking a practice swing he is done for improving his lie. In fact you are not unless you actually are trying to improve your lie. Again hard to "prove" but if you are flailing away like a windmill you are probably guilty
Was that comment in relation to leaves on the ground or leaves on the tree?
If you clip a tree and debrie falls, that is deemed illegal and a penalty ensues.
I got stung in the all ireland foursomes, waiting for my shot i was taking some practice swings trying to judge my backswing, during one of the practices, some leaves fell from the tree. I was pulled up by my oponnents partner ( who was staring as if waiting) .
I called a referee to make the call and I was penalised. I wouldnt mind normally, jsut your man was a dick about it, we went on to lose the game on the 18th and now I dont take practice swings near trees.
There no ruling that states you can remove, pickup and knock aside any debry lying around the ball, once outside of a bunker.
In a bunker you cannot remove any debry, as I also found out from a consortium of players and consultants during a barton cup. I was expected to intentionally launch my club into a rock behind my ball : /0 -
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Obviously no one would. The rules states that you have the right to ask them to replay, you are not obligated to exercise this right.QUOTE]
Exactly, so on a "moral" argument you'd be using the rule book to beat them rather than you golf. Like that Annika incident a few years ago in the Solheim.
:rolleyes:
IQUOTE]f you get to choose when to apply them and when not to then they are hardly rules?
Whats common sense to you might not be to the next you guy you play in a match, then what do you do? Whose sense of "common sense" do you use? Why not just use the one thats provided to all golfers? Sure some of them seem nonsensical, but until they change, they are the rules.QUOTE]
Not disputing for a minute that the rules are not the rules, I'm simply suggesting there are some circumstances where saying nothing is in the better interest of everyone, obviously not in something important eg interclub, but I'd rather say nothing about someone, say, knocking a leaf off a tree, than get a name for being a bit of a ba$tard in my own club where i've to see the other members all the time. In our club I was put into the final of a matchplay event after losing the semi final after it transpired that my opponent played off the wrong handicap - I had no idea about it, until I was told he was DQ'd two days later. The guy still hasn't spoken to me after about 5 years, and tried to portray me as someone who couldn't win on the course and had to resort to the rule book - its situations like that I'm talking about, slightly different I agree but its a general point (I ended up ensuring i missed a few putts in the final). Is winning a voucher worth the hassle if a rules dispute arises are bad feeling is all thats left ?
{QUOTE]That sounds a lot like "if no one catches me Im not breaking the rules..." tbh
And no, thats not what I mean at all, its not soccer we're playing 0 -
The bunker question is an emphatic NO!! I would have advised him that he played out of turn but that I was not availing of my option to have him replay it. He would be in the bunker playing for bogey!! Again, he put himself at a disadvantage for not knowing the rules. In that case, I will use my better knowledge to my advantage.
I know the touching the green thing seems trivial, but if you say "Sure let common sense prevail" then you start an unstoppable argument. What if you let him away with it and on the next hole he accidentally picks up his ball marker absent mindedly without first replacing the ball, realises his mistake and replaces it immediately. When you challenge him, he says "Not to worry, I know exactly where it was before. And sure we already agreed on the last hole that some rules don't really count." Or he brushes sand off the fringe, or pulls out a long thick blade of grass that was just behind his ball, or taps in from a foot without taking out the flag first, etc, etc. Once you agree to waive a rule, no matter how trivial, you firstly break the rules yourself in doing so, and secondly bring a large element of complete guesswork into play as to what rules warrant being followed and which don't.
Isn't it so much easier to simply expect everyone, including yourself, to follow what it says in the tiny little book of rules published by the R&A? And when you get into interclub, you will be kicking yourself when you lose a match for not doing something correctly and being pulled up on it by your opponents, and all because you never bothered to read the rules first?
IMHO, not following the rules is simply lazy. People will disguise it as "using common sense" or "playing within the spirit of the rules" or whatever. They simply don't want to take time out of their day and sit and do something so boring as to read up. Why should I suffer for having taken the time to do so myself? Personally, I find it much easier to just read something and stick to that. No thinking required.
Some might view using your better knowledge to your advantage as a little unsporting , granted within the rules. Beat him with your golf, not the rule book.
I'm not suggesting we let things snowball as described above, simply that saying nothing can be, in some cases, a better option.
Of course, in an ideal world every amateur golfer would know the rules (as I do myself) but its simply not going to be the case.0 -
Some might view using your better knowledge to your advantage as a little unsporting , granted within the rules. Beat him with your golf, not the rule book.
I'm not suggesting we let things snowball as described above, simply that saying nothing can be, in some cases, a better option.
Of course, in an ideal world every amateur golfer would know the rules (as I do myself) but its simply not going to be the case.
You're completely right of course; not every amateur golfer will know the rules. But my point is that it is mainly because those that don't know them don't make any effort to learn them. I fail to see why I or anyone else should be more leniant and ignore our own knowledge of the rules when you see a breach, just because the guy you're playing never read the book.
I expect that a lot of people would take a strict application of the rules to be "un-sporting". And I understand entirely where you're coming from. But I don't agree with your comment about beating them with golf and not the rulebook. Firstly, because rulebook is golf. And golf is the rulebook. There is no point in trying to play on a level basis if you or I decide ourselves what rules apply and what ones don't.
Secondly, I would hope that no one takes my application of the rules as gamesmanship. I consider myself a very pleasant person to play against. I never ever get upset about losing and always feel I can learn something from it. I am always happy to give praise following a good shot and would never intentionally do anything that would deliberately put someone off their game. If you beat me, you'll get a hearty handshake and a pat on the back.
I absolutely hate people who try to use mind games. Perhaps people who read this thread and think sticking to the rules is being an arse are confusing it with gamesmanship instead??
However, if you do something wrong or illegal and I pull you up on it, and you end up losing you're concentration, then that is your own issue. Why should I avoid sticking to the rules in order to be sure I don't upset you?
A while ago, I knocked an approach shot into a water hazard, not a lateral one. But I got my head confused and was about to drop within 2 club lengths of the point of entry when my opponent said "Eh, I don't think you can do that." I was delighted that he told me because I realised I wasn't really concentrating enough and he prevented me from breaching a rule. To be honest if he never said anything I would probably have been worse off, because I would have been playing through trees to the green. Instead I went back 80 yards or so and hit a wedge and a two putt to lose anyway! I fail to see why I should have been annoyed at that!?
I want to learn more about this game that I don't already know. if you don't tell me what I am doing wrong then you are robbing me of the chance to learn - rules, course management and how to keep my head when I'm caught off guard. Why should I prefer you to do that? Unless I'm just plain lazy......
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You're completely right of course; not every amateur golfer will know the rules. But my point is that it is mainly because those that don't know them don't make any effort to learn them. I fail to see why I or anyone else should be more leniant and ignore our own knowledge of the rules when you see a breach, just because the guy you're playing never read the book.
I expect that a lot of people would take a strict application of the rules to be "un-sporting". And I understand entirely where you're coming from. But I don't agree with your comment about beating them with golf and not the rulebook. Firstly, because rulebook is golf. And golf is the rulebook. There is no point in trying to play on a level basis if you or I decide ourselves what rules apply and what ones don't.
Secondly, I would hope that no one takes my application of the rules as gamesmanship. I consider myself a very pleasant person to play against. I never ever get upset about losing and always feel I can learn something from it. I am always happy to give praise following a good shot and would never intentionally do anything that would deliberately put someone off their game. If you beat me, you'll get a hearty handshake and a pat on the back.
I absolutely hate people who try to use mind games. Perhaps people who read this thread and think sticking to the rules is being an arse are confusing it with gamesmanship instead??
However, if you do something wrong or illegal and I pull you up on it, and you end up losing you're concentration, then that is your own issue. Why should I avoid sticking to the rules in order to be sure I don't upset you?
A while ago, I knocked an approach shot into a water hazard, not a lateral one. But I got my head confused and was about to drop within 2 club lengths of the point of entry when my opponent said "Eh, I don't think you can do that." I was delighted that he told me because I realised I wasn't really concentrating enough and he prevented me from breaching a rule. To be honest if he never said anything I would probably have been worse off, because I would have been playing through trees to the green. Instead I went back 80 yards or so and hit a wedge and a two putt to lose anyway! I fail to see why I should have been annoyed at that!?
I want to learn more about this game that I don't already know. if you don't tell me what I am doing wrong then you are robbing me of the chance to learn - rules, course management and how to keep my head when I'm caught off guard. Why should I prefer you to do that? Unless I'm just plain lazy......
Absolutely, I'm not trying to paint you in a bad light at all, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't take strict application of the rules as gamesmanship, I'm all for the rules and their strict application, my point is that there will be some instances where its more hassle than its worth to point something out to someone. Rightly or wrongly, some people will take it as gamesmanship though, depending on the particular rule being enforced. Yes, the rules are all sacrosanct, but take your average club member - half them know nothing about the rules, they don't try to cheat, but I'd say a lot of "average" club players inadvertantly break many rules on a regular basis and never know. I'm not saying its right, just that it happens.
For arguments sake, if I'm playing a internal match against a fellow club member and he knocks a leaf off a tree, possibly he doesn't even know he's done it, I'd be very reluctant to point it out to him and penalise him and I probably wouldn't, maybe in the bar after I'd quietly explain it. Something like grounding a club in a bunker, of course I'd point it out. Its just my own personal opinion that its not worth potentially falling out with someone over something as trivial as the first example or having the remainder of the match played in stony silence. Obviously the rules are black and white and in reality they should be but sometimes, in my opinion, its best to say nothing. Maybe thats me abdicating my responsibility as an experienced golfer and exposing them to a penalty against someone else further down the line, I don't know, as I said in my first post its something to ponder.
The water hazard example you give above is a perfect instance of how it should work (and I would definitely always point out to someone anything that I thought might help them avoid breaking a rule) but i would (respectfully) suggest that if he'd waited and let you play and then penalised you, you'd feel differently about him ?0 -
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i would (respectfully) suggest that if he'd waited and let you play and then penalised you, you'd feel differently about him ?
I see where you're coming from now. What you say above is probably correct. I would be annoyed that he sat there like a spring waiting to pounce when he saw what I was about to do. I generally avoid that possibility by letting the other player know what I'm intending before I take my relief or whatever although with the water hazard example I didn't even do that. I would probably call watching someone about to break a rule and saying nothing gamesmanship too to be honest.
Maybe we're getting away from the OP's original post. By the time you see that the other side has touched the line of putt it is too late to warn them about it. If I had known my singles opponent was about to chip on I would have stopped him and told him to wait. But despite all that, if I don't see what is about to happen until it is too late, I will still pull them up on it afterwards.
I even had a match where the other guys ball was in fluffy grass just by the waters edge but inside the hazard line. I reminded him before he played that he could not ground his club. It was kind of instinctive, but to be quite honest I thought about it afterwards and realise I probably shouldn't have done that. A line has to be drawn somewhere. If a guy hits a ball and then can't find it, then drops another ball where the first one probably ended up or something silly like that then of course I'll stop him and say "Sorry mate, you can't do that, back to the tee with you" or whatever. I won't sit and wait knowing that he's about to play a wrong ball or whatever and say nothing, but you shouldn't be coaching either. Really, I should have let the guy play out of the hazard and watch to see if he grounds his club. If he does, I'll call the penalty. In a way, I actually am waiting to see if he breaks the rule, but I can't be sure he is actually going to, so I must wait and see. Maybe you can see the difference there?
If an a breach is obviously about to happen I'll stop them and tell them. If I can't be sure if it will happen I'll assume he knows the rules and see what occurs. Would you consider that unfair?
edit: addition
One odd one that I've never personally seen but would still agree with, and it is really controversial!!! In matchplay, your opponent tees his ball forward of the tee markers. You actually know that he is about to be in breach of the rules, but the penalty, if you want to call it that, is actually at your discretion. You have the choice to either let him away with it or require the stroke to be replayed. I would wait and see where his tee shot ends up first before I make my decision. If it down the middle of the fairway, he'll have to replay it. If it's in the woods, I'll say nothing! (Yes, yes, I know a lot of people are staring at the screen with open mouths just now thinking - "He's totally contradicted himself here!) My logic is this: Firstly, I am not trying to get into the other guys head. I am simply using my options under the rules (as distinctly different from a fixed, unwaivable penalty) to my advantage. I am very careful to tee the ball up in the right place. If someone waited till after I hit the ball to tell me I broke the rule and they have elected to have me replay the stroke I would have absolutely no problem with it at all. I would only be annoyed with myself for having allowed them the choice.
In strokeplay however, I would immediately stop the person and advise them that their ball is outside the teeing ground. I wouldn't let someone walk themselves into a fixed penalty, but I will happily allow someone give me a choice as to what to do next. If someone didn't tell me in strokeplay until after I hit the ball I would be livid.
If you think about it, the matchplay rule could only be written in that particular way because the R&A expect people to use the rule to their advantage. Since it says you can elect to have the opponent replay the stroke, they must assume that you knew it was outside the teeing ground to begin with but did not immediately tell them. Makes sense to me!! 0 -
Wow, this is such a brillinat thread! It's actually maing me think about my own strategy in ways I never have before!:D
I can now sum up what I do: In matchplay it's me (or us) against them. I won't deliberately let them walk themsleves into a stroke penalty or loss of a hole but I generally will let them give me the choice of what action to take as a result of a breach. It is a head to head after all.
In strokeplay it is everyone against the course. I would never deliberately let someone walk themselves into a penalty. Since it's about who plays the course better not who plays each other better, I would take no satisfaction from beating them by letting them take more strokes than me through penalties I saw coming from a mile away.
Thanks OP! I have a clear strategy now!!
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