New ERC 2010/2011 Team Rankings + Heineken Cup Qualifiers

ScrubsfanChris

Well thats another season over, now the long wait to the pool draws in July



Biarritz get the 7th French spot because of Toulouse winning the Heineken Cup.
Scarlets now qualify for the H-Cup thanks to Cardiff winning the Amlin.


Tier 1:
Munster
Toulouse
Leinster
Leicester Tigers
Cardiff Blues
Biarritz Olympique

Tier 2:
London Wasps
Clermont Auvergne
Ospreys
Northampton Saints
Bath
Scarlets

Teir 3:
Perpignan
London Irish
Saracens
Ulster
Glasgow Warriors
Edinburgh

Teir 4:
Newport Gwent Dragons
Benetton Treviso
Castres
Toulon
Racing Metro
Aironi

thomond2006

Great post!

All of the Tier 4 teams are potentially tricky.

Toulon, Castres and Racing all made the French playoffs.
With their many of the Italian stars returning home, Aironi and Treviso could be dodgy.
Dragons are a young side who are very strong at home.

Best Draw for Irish Sides would be:
2: Scarlets (by a mile the worst team in that tier)
3: tough one, LI or Edinburgh
4: Aironi/Treviso

Worst Draw: (edited after seeing dan's post below)
2: Ospreys
3: Saracens
4: Toulon

Would have gone for Perpignan in Tier 3 but I doubt 3 French sides can be drawn together.

From a Munster perspective, as long as we don't get Clermont again (shudder), I'll be happy.

danthefan

There has to be a French team in each group, so 3 French teams can't be drawn together.

Also, the 7th French team are drawn last so the group with 2 French teams will definitely contain Racing Metro.

Ciaran-Irl

danthefan wrote: »

There has to be a French team in each group, so 3 French teams can't be drawn together.

Also, the 7th French team are drawn last so the group with 2 French teams will definitely contain Racing Metro.

Why not Castre or Toulon? This stuff always wrecks my head. Never get it.

I reckon Clermont, Saracens, Racing would be the worst draw by this reckoning then.

danthefan

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Why not Castre or Toulon? This stuff always wrecks my head. Never get it.

I reckon Clermont, Saracens, Racing would be the worst draw by this reckoning then.

Look at the list there, Castres and Toulon have ranking points, Racing aren't even on it.

Pisco Sour

How will the Amlin Challenge Cup be done next year?

With the fact that the italians have regionalised now will that mean that no italian teams will be in the Challenge Cup or will they still enter their Super 10 teams?

1 Irish team
7 French teams
6 English teams
1 Spanish team
1 Romanian team

16 teams, 4 groups of 4, top 2 qualify for the quarter finals?

[Jackass]

Best imo:

Leinster
Wasps
Perpingan
Aironi

Worst imo:

Leinster
Clermont
London Irish
Toulon

ScrubsfanChris

[Jackass] wrote: »

Best imo:

Leinster
Wasps
Perpingan
Aironi

You would rather have Perpingan than Glasgow? or do you have an away trip planned :P

[Jackass] wrote: »

Worst imo:

Leinster
Clermont
London Irish
Toulon

Don't would def be the Pool of Death for this year.

thomond2006

[Jackass] wrote: »

Worst imo:

Leinster
Clermont
London Irish
Toulon

Saracens London SA would be a far tougher draw than London Irish IMO. Irish have gone backwards this season, they couldn't make the GP semis and lost home and away to Scarlets.

shawpower

thomond2006 wrote: »

Saracens London SA would be a far tougher draw than London Irish IMO. Irish have gone backwards this season, they couldn't make the GP semis and lost home and away to Scarlets.

Agree.

Also, surely a best case scenario would see:

Leinster/Munster
Scarletts
Glasgow
Castres/Racing Metro

That way you'd avoid the big French teams in Tier 2 and 3, all the English teams, and end up with a weak* French team out of Tier 4.

* in comparison with Clermont/Perpignan/Toulon

Alternatively, you could get Perpignan and an Italian team as Tier 4 team. But which is easier, Glasgow & Castres or Perpignan & Aironi?? Italian teams could be a bit trickier now that they are getting a bit more organised.

thehighground

Better off meeting the Clermonts/Perps/Toulon/Leicesters of this world in the group stages - so that at least you have a home and away draw, and you can pick up bonus points.

There is a good chance Leinster would have been Toulouse if the match was in Dublin. Same for BO v. Munster.

shawpower

thehighground wrote: »

Better off meeting the Clermonts/Perps/Toulon/Leicesters of this world in the group stages - so that at least you have a home and away draw, and you can pick up bonus points.

Yeah, there is a point that you have to beat the best to win the HEC, so perhaps you're right. But on the flip side that logic didn't work out so well for Leicester & Cardiff this year going out to Clermont and Toulouse. Personally, I'd prefer to avoid those teams in the Group stages, finish as top seeds and leave yourself with a home draw in the Quarter finals.

thehighground wrote: »

There is a good chance Leinster would have been Toulouse if the match was in Dublin. Same for BO v. Munster.

True, but the semi draw is pure chance, so group stages didn't have any bearing on this. Munster finished as first seeds, but still ended up away in the semi.

bamboozle

the ERC really need the draw to be done in public to make it transparent, no doubt as they always get easy draws Biarritz will once again get 2 from Glasgow, Viadana, Dragons, other italian team.

ScrubsfanChris

bamboozle wrote: »

the ERC really need the draw to be done in public to make it transparent, no doubt as they always get easy draws Biarritz will once again get 2 from Glasgow, Viadana, Dragons, other italian team.

How would they do that?
It's already done infront of the media and broadcast live online.

Mabey its just bad luck on Munster's/Leinster's side.

Pisco Sour

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

How would they do that?
It's already done infront of the media and broadcast live online.

Mabey its just bad luck on Munster's/Leinster's side.

Here is a post I saw on munsterfans.com from a few weeks back.

Except that it wasn't a flick of a coin, it was a decidedly dodgy draw done in a French tv studio with the balls drawn by Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman) and Emile Ntamack (Toulouse), and with Max Guazzini (Stade Francais owner) and Serge Blanco (Biarritz) as the independent observers. Nobody from any other union present. Then the draw was done from a non-transparent wooden box and instead of putting all four balls in at once they put two in at a time, one carefully dropped to the left and the other carefully dropped to the right by Jean-Pierre before Emile gave the box two gentle spins and lo-and-behold Toulouse/Stade and Biarritz/Ospreys were picked out with the home draws. And then today who is joking away beside Serge Blanco in the stands but the ERC Chairman Mr Lux.

Not making any excuses for what happened on the pitch this weekend, but a home semi is a huge advantage, especially for a team like Toulouse who get to play in their own city. Needs to be looked at.

Podge_irl

shawpower wrote: »

Agree.

Also, surely a best case scenario would see:

Leinster/Munster
Scarletts
Glasgow
Castres/Racing Metro

That way you'd avoid the big French teams in Tier 2 and 3, all the English teams, and end up with a weak* French team out of Tier 4.

* in comparison with Clermont/Perpignan/Toulon

Alternatively, you could get Perpignan and an Italian team as Tier 4 team. But which is easier, Glasgow & Castres or Perpignan & Aironi?? Italian teams could be a bit trickier now that they are getting a bit more organised.

It's not possible. There has to be an English and French team in each pool.

the ERC really need the draw to be done in public to make it transparent, no doubt as they always get easy draws Biarritz will once again get 2 from Glasgow, Viadana, Dragons, other italian team.

Winning the HEC is a fairly massive financial asset to a club/province. If any of them had an inkling that the draw was being rigged then there would be fairly hefty legal proceedings being drawn against the ERC.

bamboozle

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

How would they do that?
It's already done infront of the media and broadcast live online.

Mabey its just bad luck on Munster's/Leinster's side.

have a read of Gerry Thornley's article the other day on this, even he's suggesting cosy draws for Biarritz, if i have the time i'll look up the groups Biarritz have been over the last few years, the italian teams, dragons and glasgow pop up again and again

shawpower

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's not possible. There has to be an English and French team in each pool.

Ah yeah. Forgot about that. That opens it up a bit I guess. London Irish seem to have dipped a bit recently, so maybe them instead of Glasgow.

Would love to get Bath also. Didn't make the away trips there last time and heard it's a fabulous Rugby town.

BoarHunter

bamboozle wrote: »

have a read of Gerry Thornley's article the other day on this, even he's suggesting cosy draws for Biarritz, if i have the time i'll look up the groups Biarritz have been over the last few years, the italian teams, dragons and glasgow pop up again and again

Yes and the ERC might also have murdered JFK, who knows the magic bullet and so on ...

That's a conspiracy man :pac:

Why on earth would Biarritz of all clubs get a favour treatement ?

If the HCup is the main competition for you, the one you pay your season ticket for, why would you prefer to see viadana rather than Perpignan or Clermont coming to your home venue ?

there is a bit of contradiction there.

thehighground

BoarHunter wrote: »

Why on earth would Biarritz of all clubs get a favour treatement ?

Serge Blanco.

BoarHunter

thehighground wrote: »

Serge Blanco.

what the hell serge Blanco has to do in the ERC ? so if i carry on the theory, the ERC are based in Dublin ... hmmmm :rolleyes:

let's be serious lads ...

ScrubsfanChris

04072511 wrote: »

Here is a post I saw on munsterfans.com from a few weeks back.

Except that it wasn't a flick of a coin, it was a decidedly dodgy draw done in a French tv studio with the balls drawn by Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman) and Emile Ntamack (Toulouse), and with Max Guazzini (Stade Francais owner) and Serge Blanco (Biarritz) as the independent observers. Nobody from any other union present. Then the draw was done from a non-transparent wooden box and instead of putting all four balls in at once they put two in at a time, one carefully dropped to the left and the other carefully dropped to the right by Jean-Pierre before Emile gave the box two gentle spins and lo-and-behold Toulouse/Stade and Biarritz/Ospreys were picked out with the home draws. And then today who is joking away beside Serge Blanco in the stands but the ERC Chairman Mr Lux.

Not making any excuses for what happened on the pitch this weekend, but a home semi is a huge advantage, especially for a team like Toulouse who get to play in their own city. Needs to be looked at.

Fair point (if a bit ridiculous), but I was talkng about the draw for the pool stages not the semi finals.

thehighground

BoarHunter wrote: »

what the hell serge Blanco has to do in the ERC ? so if i carry on the theory, the ERC are based in Dublin ... hmmmm :rolleyes:

let's be serious lads ...

Didn't the French Clubs threaten to pull out of the Heineken Cup when Serge was President of the Top 14?

ERC in Dublin would have been trying to keep the French clubs competing in the HCup.;)

And he is President of BO.

BoarHunter

04072511 wrote: »

Here is a post I saw on munsterfans.com from a few weeks back.

Except that it wasn't a flick of a coin, it was a decidedly dodgy draw done in a French tv studio with the balls drawn by Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman) and Emile Ntamack (Toulouse), and with Max Guazzini (Stade Francais owner) and Serge Blanco (Biarritz) as the independent observers. Nobody from any other union present. Then the draw was done from a non-transparent wooden box and instead of putting all four balls in at once they put two in at a time, one carefully dropped to the left and the other carefully dropped to the right by Jean-Pierre before Emile gave the box two gentle spins and lo-and-behold Toulouse/Stade and Biarritz/Ospreys were picked out with the home draws. And then today who is joking away beside Serge Blanco in the stands but the ERC Chairman Mr Lux.

Not making any excuses for what happened on the pitch this weekend, but a home semi is a huge advantage, especially for a team like Toulouse who get to play in their own city. Needs to be looked at.

come on lads ! so let's make the draw in Dublin with everyone present... Did you ask the representant people of the concerned clubs if they were invited to the daw ??? maybe they were :rolleyes: but the idea of coming for a 3 minutes draw on a french TV set might not have warmed them up.

thehighground

BoarHunter wrote: »

come on lads ! so let's make the draw in Dublin with everyone present... Did you ask the representant people of the concerned clubs if they were invited to the daw ??? maybe they were :rolleyes: but the idea of coming for a 3 minutes draw on a french TV set might not have warmed them up.

I bet they will turn up for the next draw

BoarHunter

thehighground wrote: »

Didn't the French Clubs threaten to pull out of the Heineken Cup when Serge was President of the Top 14?

ERC in Dublin would have been trying to keep the French clubs competing in the HCup.;)

And he is President of BO.

they threatened to pull out along with the English clubs ... let's not mix up everything . that was another issue with the money allowance. nothing to do with this ...

with what i read here people would prefer to play treviso, scarlets and viadana rather than the french clubs :rolleyes:

thehighground

BoarHunter wrote: »

they threatened to pull out along with the English clubs ... let's not mix up everything . that was another issue with the money allowance. nothing to do with this ...

with what i read here people would prefer to play treviso, scarlets and viadana rather than the french clubs :rolleyes:

Serge was making all the shapes about it though ... and who knows what was promised to keep the English clubs happy

Not that we would prefer a weaker team - its just helps if you have an Italian team in your group- it means you have a better chance of qualifying.

Personally think having an easy group is pointless in the long run. BO is a fine example as to why it is pointless.

JustinDee

thehighground wrote: »

Didn't the French Clubs threaten to pull out of the Heineken Cup when Serge was President of the Top 14?

ERC in Dublin would have been trying to keep the French clubs competing in the HCup.;)

And he is President of BO.

Conspiracy Theory Forum is that-a-way ---->>>

bamboozle

thehighground wrote: »

Serge Blanco.

+1

bamboozle

JustinDee wrote: »

Conspiracy Theory Forum is that-a-way ---->>>

have a look at the groups Biarritz have been drawn in, consistently drawn with weaker welsh, scottish or italian teams, a lot of this coincides with Blanco threatening to pull the french teams out of the H.cup.

when it gets to the stage Gerry Thornley is writing about this there has to be something there.

thehighground

JustinDee wrote: »

Conspiracy Theory Forum is that-a-way ---->>>

Only helping BoarHunter out by providing a motive as to why BO do ok in the draws

Podge_irl

bamboozle wrote: »

when it gets to the stage Gerry Thornley is writing about this there has to be something there.

Do you honestly think all the other teams would put up with if there was a suggestion of rigging the draw?

People are just seeing what they want to see.

Riskymove

bamboozle wrote: »

have a look at the groups Biarritz have been drawn in, consistently drawn with weaker welsh, scottish or italian teams, a lot of this coincides with Blanco threatening to pull the french teams out of the H.cup.

well for a start they have to have one english team due to numbers afaik

in addition they wont in most cases get another french team (I know that there has to be one such group this year)

so basically unless they get leinster or munster or say leicester, they have a fairly good chance

btw they had no italian team this year, while Munster did and Leinster got the most indifferent french team in the comp



EDIT: I did some further exploring and I dont see any great evidence othe rhtan they have had an italian team often enough

last year they had cardiff, gloucester and calvisano and they lost 3 games coming second in pool

2008 they had saracens, glasgow and viadano and they lost 2 coming second

2007 fair enough an easy one with northampton, borders and parma winning all 6

2006 saracens, ulster and treviso losing one

in 2005 they had wasps and leicester as well as calvisano losiung just 1 and winning the group

in 2004 they had leinster, cardiff and sale losing 2 but winning group

shawpower

Riskymove wrote: »

so basically unless they get leinster or munster or say leicester, they have a fairly good chance

They can't get any of those teams as they are all 1st seeds.

Riskymove

shawpower wrote: »

They can't get any of those teams as they are all 1st seeds.

well there you go, how can they get a really difficult pool in those circumstances

although, as above they once had leicester and wasps

thehighground

Riskymove wrote: »

well there you go, how can they get a really difficult pool in those circumstances

although, as above they once had leicester and wasps

The rankings system is fairly recent - I think this is the 3rd year of them.

Munster have been top seed for the last couple of years and last year was the first time in a long time that Munster got an Italian team.

bamboozle

here's their groups for last 6 seasons

2010 Dragons Gloucester Glasgow
2009 Cardiff Calvisano Gloucester
2008 Glasgow Saracens Viadana
2007 Northampton Rugby Parma Border Reivers
2006 Saracens Ulster Treviso
2005 Leicester Wasps Calvisano

so in 5 of last 6 seasons they've had italian opponents, they've also had shocking teams like border reivers, glasgow and gloucester.

they've had it easy. 2005 group was hard, all other ones p1ss easy.

BoarHunter

the draws are some random things and sometimes you can have a lucky streak. Did that give any Title to Biarritz ? No

sounds like soure grapes to me : suddenly you hear about how rich the french clubs are, they cheat the draw, etc etc

Last year there was no french club in semi finale and i didn't hear any complain as such. The french clubs were as rich ...

next year might reveal a different scenario and some other conspiracy theory will pop up.

bamboozle

BoarHunter wrote: »

the draws are some random things and sometimes you can have a lucky streak. Did that give any Title to Biarritz ? No

sounds like soure grapes to me : suddenly you hear about how rich the french clubs are, they cheat the draw, etc etc

Last year there was no french club in semi finale and i didn't hear any complain as such. The french clubs were as rich ...

next year might reveal a different scenario and some other conspiracy theory will pop up.

call it sour grapes if you want, its pretty clear to me that they always get the easiest draw in the Heineken Cup, its also clear that the draw for the semi final was concluded under pretty shady circumstances, from which they benefitted with a home semi final draw.

even if you look at their semi final's;
this year they got a home semi final, 2007 they got a home semi final v northampton, 2006 they got a home semi final v bath. 2005 home semi final v Munster, 2004 away semi final v Toulouse,

lucky group draws, lucky semi final draws, they're lucky Serge Blanco has so much power!

BoarHunter

bamboozle wrote: »

lucky groups, lucky semi final, they're lucky Serge Blanco has so much power!

really if he had so much power, his club would be on top in the TOP14 attracting the best players of the panel.

instead of that, they struggle as soon as they have a player injured and finish in the middle of the tables consitently now.

[Jackass]

It's been a running joke in rugby for some time that the European Cup draw is fixed.

Amazingly, it's only VERY recently that this was done in the open, as the draw up until as recent as maybe 2 or 3 seasons ago, was done "behind closed doors" with different union officals present as witnesses.

Of course the ERC and participating unions had some sort of agreement for what's best for the game and competition. It was crucial that the French had a good run at the competition this season. This season was used to almost re-launch the H-Cup in France. And they really got what they were looking for, from 1 knock out stage qualifier and zero semi-final interest last season, the French were given home advantage incentive in both the HEC & ACC and low and behold, half of the quarters are French teams, with the two home French teams, Biarritz and Tolouse, given the home semi-finals also, ensuring that pretty much no matter what, the competition will be held throughout France and that the French will be given every incentive to get into it!

But hey, let's not complain!! The ERC tried the exact same thing for the Irish in 2003 when Leinster and Munster were given handy draws and kept seperate throughout the tournament and we were "gifted" an All-Irish final in Lansdowne Road, except we blew it and both teams lost semi's they should have won.

And now that the competition is so big in Ireland and the crowds are so into it, there's no need to send a final here again...so where next? Let's have another shot at the Welsh, then we'll head back to Twickenham and get the GP back on track.

The trip to Edinburgh was a waste of time! :pac:

I don't think it's rigged like it used to be, but there's no doubt that shady dealings are going on behind the doors. It's always been the way in rugby, the old blazers making deals, you'll get a world cup vote if you give us home group games, and you'll get the heineken cup final if you can make sure French teams are committed this season etc. etc.

ScrubsfanChris

Guys can we please stay on Topic, start another thread for you Biarritz rugby/rigged pool draw Conspiracies.

JustinDee

bamboozle wrote: »

so in 5 of last 6 seasons they've had italian opponents, they've also had shocking teams like border reivers, glasgow and gloucester

Do you think that there's a conspiracy behind the amount of times Ireland run into Aussie in the RWC?

Riskymove

bamboozle wrote: »

so in 5 of last 6 seasons they've had italian opponents, they've also had shocking teams like border reivers, glasgow and gloucester.

ok so they have often drawn an italian team buit again its down to the system somewhat....there has to be an english and a french team in each group so for Munster and leinster that means 3 of the teams are pre-selected on a nationality basis and only leaves one slot for either welsh, scottish or italian....for Biarritz (and other french teams) they are only guaranteed an english team and therefore there are 2 other slots open for any nationality..meaning more chance of getting an italian team

on a general note, people can be quick to look at getting an italian team as a good thing.....as in 'easy points in the bag'...the flip side of this is that the 2nd and 3rd tier teams usually (not always ) also bank those easy points which can actually make the group tighter and the games between the other 3 far more important

castie

In my opinion its just as a result of the structure.

Cant get any top seeds.
Very low chance of getting another french team.

So they get one english team one welsh and one italian by the looks of it and thats down to nothing but the rules governing the draw.

Its not their fault that the 2nd/3rd/4th tier tend to be weak.
This year Ospreys would be the toughest of the tier 2 teams with Wasps a weak enough second ( considering the chances of getting tier 1 and tier 2 from france is very low so not considering clermont )

ScrubsfanChris

2010/2011 Heineken Cup Pool Draw (11:00am - Tuesday 8th June)

Live Stream via ERCrugby.com Website

Please be advised that next Tuesday's Heineken Cup draw for the composition of the six Pools of four teams each for the 16th season of European club rugby's elite tournament will be streamed live on ercrugby.com.

The draw in Cardiff, the host city for the 2011 Heineken Cup final, will be conducted by ERC Chairman Jean-Pierre Lux and ERC Chief Executive Derek McGrath.

The draw will take place at 11.00am on Tuesday, 8 June, so log on to ercrugby.com and see how reigning champions Toulouse and the other 23 teams fare as the drama unfolds live.

Source: http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/12_15724.php

*Mabey one of the Mod's could add Live Pool Draw to the thread title.

ScrubsfanChris

Europe holds its breath
7 June 2010, 6:40 pm

By Westgate

The top 24 clubs in Europe will be on red alert on Tuesday morning (June 8) when they learn their fate for next season's Heineken Cup tournament.
ERC chairman Jean-Pierre Lux and chief executive Derek McGrath will conduct the draw for the six Pools for the 16th tournament at the St David’s Hotel & Spa in Cardiff – host city for the Heineken Cup final on 21/22 May, 2011 – at 11am.

Reigning champions Toulouse, who won the inaugural title in 1996 in the Welsh capital, will be the first team assigned a place in one of the six Pools, while newcomers Racing-Metro 92 will be the 24th club drawn as the seventh French side.

As well as France’s ‘Magnificent Seven’, there will be six clubs form England, four from Wales, three from Ireland and two each from Scotland and Italy.

You can follow the draw live on ercrugby.com and to keep you abreast of how the draw is made you can download the press pack for the day by clicking here

Source: http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/5019_15730.php

ScrubsfanChris

Starting in 5 minutes:

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/121_15728.php

tolosenc

What's the link?

EDIT: AdBlock was blocking it...

EDIT 2: Keep getting "Connection failed: Please refresh your web browser"

ScrubsfanChris

tolosenc wrote: »

What's the link?

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/121_15728.php

Looking at Munsterfans.com, it doesn't seem to be working for everyone.

cruiserweight

tolosenc wrote: »

EDIT 2: Keep getting "Connection failed: Please refresh your web browser"

I am getting the same

EDIT: Working now, sort of