End of the line for the La Touche?

loyatemu

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2010/0520/1224270702903.html

pixbyjohn

I hope this will be the end of this eyesore at a prime location

darter

Isn't this damn typical of what's wrong with our country. A beautiful historic nostalgic building that would be revered in other countries and would be legally maintained because of its protected status is allowed to rot to the point that it is now an "eyesore" and the developer gets his way and is permitted to demolish it.

I'm sure we'll get a concrete monstrosity in its place that will be an eyesore for tens of years - but it will make the developer a pile of money. Mind you, it will have a cousin in the mess that will be the harbour and marina for years to come.

Greystones is as beautiful and charming as it is precisely because it was ignored by the developers (due to the poor commute connection to the city) during the horrible 60s and 70s when many Irish and UK cities got their concrete make-over. Now, the spineless myopic Wicklow Councillors are allowing developers to trample all over our town at their whim.

I agree with very little that Prince Charles has ever said, but I do agree with him when he said in 1987 that architects, developers and planners had done more damage to London than Hitler's bombers did during World War II. Now we're having the same in Ireland, and it's on our own doorstep with the La Touche hotel.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

darter wrote: »

Isn't this damn typical of what's wrong with our country. A beautiful historic nostalgic building that would be revered in other countries and would be legally maintained because of its protected status is allowed to rot to the point that it is now an "eyesore" and the developer gets his way and is permitted to demolish it.

I'm sure we'll get a concrete monstrosity in its place that will be an eyesore for tens of years - but it will make the developer a pile of money. Mind you, it will have a cousin in the mess that will be the harbour and marina for years to come.

Greystones is as beautiful and charming as it is precisely because it was ignored by the developers (due to the poor commute connection to the city) during the horrible 60s and 70s when many Irish and UK cities got their concrete make-over. Now, the spineless myopic Wicklow Councillors are allowing developers to trample all over our town at their whim.

I agree with very little that Prince Charles has ever said, but I do agree with him when he said in 1987 that architects, developers and planners had done more damage to London than Hitler's bombers did during World War II. Now we're having the same in Ireland, and it's on our own doorstep with the La Touche hotel.

I agree with your introduction, but I have to disagree with your comments about the harbour and marina. I for one am quite excited about the development. Greystones is beautiful, and I just hope that no further major developments be made in or near the town itself.

Cookie_Monster

I had my debs there.

It looks almost as bad now as it did then :pac:

egorski

Its a sad day indeed - the La Touches practically invented Greystones
and apart from some of the Churches - the La Touche Hotel is THE landmark
building in Greystones.

But rather than getting into rant mode as the process is unstoppable its
worth thinking of a solution.

I though that landmark buildings could be seized by the council if they were
semi-derelict and a danger to the public. This is obviously the case with
THE landmark building. Surely as compensation, when (not it) they knock
it down - it would be good to have this site for the Greystones people.

Rasmus

It's horrible that a beautiful historical building can be de-listed just like that (although I don't know how long that process was) to make way for a developer. I think it's a shame to see it go. I would imagine that it's difficult to figure out what to do with a derelict space though, without it costing millions upon millions for refurbishment. Unfortunately the easy cheap way is being taken. : ( I don't agree that it's an eyesore though, even in it's present state, safety issues aside.

Langerland

Well something has to be done with it. It's a bloody disgrace it has been left rot into its current state. This certainly does seem to be the quick / cheap fix option. It will probably turn into another "it's a shame they demolished the...." stories in a few years.

Fiachra2

Whats a real shame here is that the councillors are directly responsible for the situation that has developed. They allowed an ugly extension on to the rear completly destrying the appearance of the sea side of the hotel and more significantly allowing its primary purpose to shift away from small hotel/bar to nightclub with bar attached. They then granted permision for an enormously high density housing development thereby again shifting its purpose. Now that has failed and we left with the current eyesore.

The Councillors are now delivering the "coup de grace" by failitating the demolishion of the finest building in the town to be replaced with something which may be pleasing to the eyes of some but will never have the character of the LaTouche. (not to mention the memories!)

Meanwhile we have no hotel and only 3 B&B's in the Greystones. A clear reflection of the Councils policy for greystones which is urbanisation and industrialisation rather than making use of the town's natural resources through tourism.

darter

In countries with responsible citizenry, those purchasing listed buildings understand and accept their moral obligations.

In countries with responsible government, legislation is in place to ensure that listed buildings are appropriately maintained, even to the extent of foreclosure then going after the owner for the costs of repair.

Then we have Ireland...

Fiachra2 has it right. Yet again our Councillors are working against the best interests of the very people they are supposed to represent.

sagat2

Sick to my stomach at the thought of the fine facade being torn down. Very sad.

pixbyjohn

Why blame everything bad on the councillors ? They were voted in democratically, and not too long ago. We can't deny that. Has it occured to anyone that the majority of people in the area may actually agree with what is being done, I don't see any large scale protests being organised. Apart from a few Boards.ie posters there doesn't appear to be much interest in opposing the current going ons in the area.

Fiachra2

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Why blame everything bad on the councillors ? They were voted in democratically, and not too long ago. We can't deny that. Has it occured to anyone that the majority of people in the area may actually agree with what is being done, I don't see any large scale protests being organised. Apart from a few Boards.ie posters there doesn't appear to be much interest in opposing the current going ons in the area.

Fair point John but why should people have to organise protests to stop actions being taken by Councillors which are clearly not in the best interests of the community? Is it not reasonable for them to assume that if they elect someone -from any party-that they will not act in a manner as to endanger the future of a bulding as iconic as the LaTouche?

People have a right to get on with their lives and not have to protest when the Councillors do something which is clearly off-the-walls.

When I sat on the Council and objected to actions such as this it was often thrown back at me "well no one (or only a handful of people)have objected". This is no reason to assume that the rest all think its fine. People have better things to do with their lives than to watch every planning application/zoning proposal and send in written submissions (usually to a very tight deadline). They have a right to expect their councillors to act reasonably. Which -in my opinion-they dont.

The Guide

Think the point is now, the place is an eyesore, its doing nothing for tourism in the town and its a perfect site to build a new hotel, we must be one of the few towns in the Country that does not have even 1 hotel for visitors to the town. The damage is done, the La Touche is gone, so now it just to get on with it and make the site workable and always remember it is in a residential area and people have to live beside, in front of it and Im sure it is not a nice sight to view when you wake up in the morning. The only thing I would like to be enforced is that whatever is built in its place will blend with the surrounding buildings.

Charlie-Bravo

I am not defending the de-listing or otherwise...but it does make me think.

And I don't know the fully history of the Hotel closing down...but I would believe it comes down to affording the upkeep...if there isn't the revenue, then with no money you cannot upkeep the protected parts of the structure....if these protected parts deteriorate to the extent that its not worth protecting anymore, then obviously there's no reason to keep it listed.

I agree it is a landmark building for Greystones... and a lot of locals will remember going there for some event or another, I myself had my debs there in the 1990's and I'll always remember going to Club Life in the late 90's with people swinging from the balustrade to 'In the Jungle, the mighty jungle'! Weirdest experience there!

The Guide

Just to reminise

http://homepage.eircom.net/~latouche/facilities.htm

darter

The Guide wrote: »

Think the point is now, the place is an eyesore, its doing nothing for tourism in the town and its a perfect site to build a new hotel...

NO! Why this resignation and acceptance? There is already a beautiful building there. I shudder to think what we will get in its place. A concrete cheap-and-nasty structure like we have with the apartments next to the school.

OK, it's not been maintained, but most of that is superficial - at least I presume so given the plans that were in place for its development. Obviously, if there had been any serious structural problems there would not have been such plans.

My view is that the Council should go after the owner for the funds necessary to - at the very least - restore it to the state it was in when he purchased it. Then they can look for someone who is prepared to restore it to its former glory, with those funds from the owner as an incentive.

I'm actually surprised that a local council can overturn a listed building designation - surely there is a national body that makes such designations?

The Guide

Of course if at all possible it should be restored to its former glory, that goes without saying, and its a disgrace that the owners have let this happen to a beautiful building, but the fact is its been lying for so long in its present state, that something has to be done now, if not for tourism but it is only a matter of time before a serious accident occurs or a fire, and what if the owners do not have the money, therefore it would take another 10 years chasing them for it and in the meantime we still have no hotel. I do believe that people in the town would like the eyesore gone. There is nothing to say that the new owners will not restore it but it will probably come down to costs as everything does, so we will have to live with it if it does.

loyatemu

It won't be a new hotel though, it'll be apartments, or a low-rise bar/restaurant or something similarly non-descript.

the La Touche was a prefectly acceptable small hotel and bar in a seaside town - it wasn't particularly well run IMO (the beer was terrible and the bar seemed to attract a lot of troublemakers) but the hotel itself was packed out on rugby weekends and the nightclub was a success (even if the extension itself was hideous).

My point here is that there is a viable business for a small local hotel, bar, nightclub, restaurant etc. in Greystones. As an example - the Wicklow 200 cycling event is starting from Greystones this year for the first time (on June 13th - there's expected to be over 2000 cyclists) and I've seen a lot of participants complaining that there is no accomodation in the town - the La Touche would've been full if it was still open.

The final owners of the La Touche weren't content with running a hotel. They got property-bubble €-signs in their eyes and decided that there was more money to be made redeveloping the site, it was with this in mind that they closed the hotel down. Unfortunately for them and for Greystones the whole project got bogged down and the site is now effectively under the control of AIB

All this is well known - the building is now deteriorating and (up close at least) its an eyesore. Nonetheless, Greystones does not have many large historical buildings and the La Touche/Grand Hotel is probably the most significant. It is a complete deriliction of duty for the council to de-list it. I don't know who specifically voted in favour of this, but George Jones' approval of the move seems fairly typical of his development-at-all-costs attitude to planning, I'd be interested to know what man-of-the-people Simon Harris's opinion is.

I certainly don't think that every old building no matter how decrepit should be preserved, but development ≠ progress. The La Touche is one of the (few) key buildings and locations in Greystones - it is worthy of preservation and that's why it was listed in the first place. To abandon it to the wrecking ball after 150 years just because the economy is going through a temporary dip (and yes I know how bad things are, and they will get worse, but they will eventually get better also) - it's a pathetic capitulation by Wicklow County Council.

Greystoned

Have to agree with most sentiments here: what a shame. Please get it restored somehow. Imagine that in time, Greystones will have its own urban council then this could be a fine headquarters. Better times will arrive and the sacrifice needed now will not appear so great.

We'll really regret it in decades to come if it goes. And as already said, the buildings constructed around the town are not exactly full of imagination anyhow. Not looking forward to the usual appartment block effort in place of the La Touche. Think of what happened to the Woodlands.

cavemeister

As far as I am aware, the La Touche was bought years ago by a developer with the intention of turning it into an apartment complex (while keeping the front facade intact). However, part of the planning permission was that the apartments would have to have underground parking - when the developers had the base examined, it was discovered that the sea had compromised the foundations and drilling into the rock would have collapsed that whole building. This, it seems is why it's been left to rot... No one wants to touch an unsafe property... Now that the council have de-listed the building, the foundations when it is knocked can be re-secured! Apparently, over the years, the sea had created millions of tiny cracks at the back of the La Touche by the back carpark, entered them and eaten it away!

Thats what I heard anyway!

mirrorball

Greystoned wrote: »

Have to agree with most sentiments here: what a shame. Please get it restored somehow. Imagine that in time, Greystones will have its own urban council then this could be a fine headquarters. Better times will arrive and the sacrifice needed now will not appear so great.

We'll really regret it in decades to come if it goes. And as already said, the buildings constructed around the town are not exactly full of imagination anyhow. Not looking forward to the usual appartment block effort in place of the La Touche. Think of what happened to the Woodlands.

REALLY regret it. You don't have to travel too far to see what a loss the La Touche would be. Just look at what Bray had before Katie Gallagher's and the dole office:



and the Bowling Alley:

pixbyjohn

We probably could go on and on but I won't. I remember the beautiful farmland where Charlesland is now.

darter

cavemeister wrote: »

As far as I am aware, the La Touche was bought years ago by a developer with the intention of turning it into an apartment complex (while keeping the front facade intact). However, part of the planning permission was that the apartments would have to have underground parking - when the developers had the base examined, it was discovered that the sea had compromised the foundations and drilling into the rock would have collapsed that whole building. This, it seems is why it's been left to rot... No one wants to touch an unsafe property... Now that the council have de-listed the building, the foundations when it is knocked can be re-secured! Apparently, over the years, the sea had created millions of tiny cracks at the back of the La Touche by the back carpark, entered them and eaten it away!

Thats what I heard anyway!

Yes, I also had heard a rumour to that effect. But surely the rationale for de-listing is a public document, and we should all see it, rather than be speculating.

If it is indeed as structurally-unsound as you say, then we all have to accept the inevitable and move on and get it replaced with an alternative. But I believe that we residents have the right to know exactly the reasons for the de-listing.

There is an expression I enjoy about being like a mushroom - kept in the dark and fed sh*t. In this case, I feel like a starved mushroom - we're just being kept in the dark..

Huntthe

A disgrace, a part of the History of Greystones. Hard to imagine Greystones without the La Touche.

Annasopra

It may not be the end

North Wicklow Fine Gael Representative, Greystones Councillor Simon Harris has engaged with many residents in Greystones on the future of the La Touche Hotel and as a result has decided to table an amendment to the County Development Plan at the next County Council Meeting to ensure the facade of the hotel remains a protected structure.

Speaking on the issue, Councillor Harris said, "I believe to include changes to the La Touche Hotel in the draft plan was beneficial as it got people in Greystones thinking about the future of the hotel and what we as a community desire for this site. Following lengthy discussions with many residents who contacted me about the future of the site, I made a submission to the County Manager proposing that the facade of the La Touche Hotel remain a protected structure. I believe this is a sensible approach. An amendment in my name will be before the County Council Meeting which is considering the plan and I am optimistic this amendment will receive the support of a majority of the Council."

"The La Touche Hotel is a significant landmark in our town - it is place where those of us from Greystones visited regularly in the past for weddings, christenings, meetings, festivals, funeral receptions, etc. It was at the heart of life in our town. Obviously the building needs serious work done and some development to take place but any development must respect the character of the area and protect the facade," continued Councillor Harris.

"I look forward to progressing my amendment at the County Council Meeting," concluded Councillor Harris.

The Real B-man

Some Pictures of it in its Current State
http://urbanexploration.ie/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=216

I Think in its Current State it should be Demolished but the facade kept similiar to the Buildings on Bray Mainstreet where the Florentine center was suppose to be built mix the old with the new if its suitable.

InTheTrees

Johnnymcg wrote: »

It may not be the end

Well lets hope.

Macy0161

The Real B-man wrote: »

Some Pictures of it in its Current State
http://urbanexploration.ie/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=216

I Think in its Current State it should be Demolished but the facade kept similiar to the Buildings on Bray Mainstreet where the Florentine center was suppose to be built mix the old with the new if its suitable.

A lot of that looks cosmetic from the photo's, and that stairwell with all the grafitti is in the new extension anyway.

youknowwho

The Guide wrote: »

Of course if at all possible it should be restored to its former glory, that goes without saying, and its a disgrace that the owners have let this happen to a beautiful building, but the fact is its been lying for so long in its present state, that something has to be done now, if not for tourism but it is only a matter of time before a serious accident occurs or a fire, and what if the owners do not have the money, therefore it would take another 10 years chasing them for it and in the meantime we still have no hotel. I do believe that people in the town would like the eyesore gone. There is nothing to say that the new owners will not restore it but it will probably come down to costs as everything does, so we will have to live with it if it does.

I thought the Bank / NAMA now own it as with most property and defaulting loans. If that is the case, as they are the legal owners and also the beneficial owners the council should have enforced the restoration of the hotel or carried out the work and sought the funds. The only reason it was delisted was to make it more attractive for an investor and to assist the bank in offloading it.

If it is the case that NAMA (the state) owns it could the council not put forward a case for its restoration. NAMA have been given these powers to develop properties for our benefit?

UrbexJunkie

These pictures were taken about 2 months ago:

http://www.urbexjunkie.com/2011/03/la-touche-hotel/

It really is in a sorry state but a bloody shame if they knock it down to build some ugly apartment block.

Uj

Aquamarina

If I had a spare few million I would buy it, knock down all the horrible modern extensions, restore its Victorian core, and re-open it as a boutique hotel, with restaurant and tea rooms and a lawn outside for tea and scones on a Sunday..

UrbexJunkie

Actually yes i remember seeing a photograph of what it used to look like and the gardens were beautiful.

Cookie_Monster

UrbexJunkie wrote: »

These pictures were taken about 2 months ago:

http://www.urbexjunkie.com/2011/03/la-touche-hotel/

It really is in a sorry state but a bloody shame if they knock it down to build some ugly apartment block.

Uj

what a disgraceful mess :mad:

I had my debs there, I still have the photo of the two of us at the bottom of the wrecked staircase...

The Guide

Aquamarina wrote: »

If I had a spare few million I would buy it, knock down all the horrible modern extensions, restore its Victorian core, and re-open it as a boutique hotel, with restaurant and tea rooms and a lawn outside for tea and scones on a Sunday..

and in the place of the modern extensions - tasteful self catering cottages blending in with the hotel as an extra service - would be a great for touristse - although I think you would need more than a few million - such a pity about the state of the hotel as it stands now!

UrbexJunkie

pixbyjohn

Thanks for those photos of the Grand Hotel, takes me back to when it was such an exclusive place, thank god things have moved on.

2.8trooper

im not from greystones but went to school there have friends there etc etc,i was involved heaviley in the conservation and restoration sector before i emmigrated and its not a straight forward business to be in.many projects do not get off the ground due to lack of funding,and the ones that do usually have a commercial intrest to drive the project,therefore you need investors and they never like to be told what they can and cant do to there property when they are investing x amount of millions.no building can not be saved it takes time and money thats all.

get behind your local counciller as a community is there no heritage group in greystones who can drive it,grants can be availed off but only if there is an ongoing project already established.working with conservation architects and the opw is hard work very hard but impossible projects have been done and will continue to be done in ireland.greystones has to be the if not one one of the wealthiest districts in wicklow if not ireland get the community to put there money were there mouths are and start the funding,nobody will help if there seems no intrest in it,even killpeddar willow grove has an historical society.
i still have some contacts in the industry who can be contacted for advice and direction if needs be any one interested can pm me for more details.really what has to happen if the community wants it saved is the community has to save it.
if the wicklow coco own it now they need to be lobbied to do something to get the ball rolling although in my experience wicklow council have little or no intrest in thier built heritage and tend to focus more on nature trails,walks and wildlife all good in itself but it wont help the hundreds of derilict and decaying historical buildings in wicklow.
just my 2cents but it can be saved it just needs action not words......

toitle

Slightly off topic and on a smaller scale but...
The Delgany Inn is also a listed building,and is currently being allowed to fall into an awful state.
I wonder will they do the same with it?
I've heard that in England the National Trust operate a kind of use it or lose it scheme whereby owners of listed buildings who allow their properties to fall into a bad state have the properties bought off them and taken by the state.

LEIN

UrbexJunkie wrote: »

These pictures were taken about 2 months ago:

http://www.urbexjunkie.com/2011/03/la-touche-hotel/

It really is in a sorry state but a bloody shame if they knock it down to build some ugly apartment block.

Uj

The place has really fallen to the pits.

It must be very easy for anyone to gain access.

UrbexJunkie

toitle wrote: »

Slightly off topic and on a smaller scale but...
The Delgany Inn is also a listed building,and is currently being allowed to fall into an awful state.
I wonder will they do the same with it?
I've heard that in England the National Trust operate a kind of use it or lose it scheme whereby owners of listed buildings who allow their properties to fall into a bad state have the properties bought off them and taken by the state.

Where is the Delgany Inn?

The La Touche has various access points due to vandals and people robbing the copper.

LEIN

UrbexJunkie wrote: »

people robbing the copper.

That still goes on! :eek:

UrbexJunkie

Damo9090 wrote: »

That still goes on! :eek:

Yep sadly, no matter what derelict place i go to shoot there is evidence of stripped cables and pipes.

Lil' Smiler

UrbexJunkie wrote: »

These pictures were taken about 2 months ago:

http://www.urbexjunkie.com/2011/03/la-touche-hotel/

It really is in a sorry state but a bloody shame if they knock it down to build some ugly apartment block.

Uj

woah!!! Aw the Beach Club..the memories!

vinpaul

UrbexJunkie wrote: »

Where is the Delgany Inn?

The La Touche has various access points due to vandals and people robbing the copper.

Delgany Inn is boarded up Tavern/Inn on the way into Delgany Village, just before Churchyard as you approach from N11.
Another eyesore that is developing in Greystones is "Cullenmore", a large detached house adjacent to Tesco Supermarket. Due to be demolished and site incorporated into the proposed development. House broken into before Christmas, set on fire, now boarded up and becoming another blot on the landscape. Anybody got any news on the planned Tesco development. Seems to be dragging on now for some time!!

matt-dublin

Current site due to be knocked this year I believe

Effects

Damo9090 wrote: »

That still goes on! :eek:

Copper is at the highest price it's been at for years. It came down the last few years but shot up again recently. I was sitting on a load of it for a while and sold it just before christmas, glad I held out.

matt-dublin

that the stuff you pinched from the la touche?

schmel22

do it - sounds amazing!!

doylerd

Would be terrible if the site was knocked, for heritage/nostalgia reasons, but it's unlikely any developer would take on that project if they had to retain what is, let's face it, not exactly a handsome facade. Anyway how awful would that facade connected to a modern backing look? Probably quite.

There's no doubt that we would regret demolition hugely, probably as soon as the first walls come crashing down, but it's likely inevitable. It's clear that once the Council decides on something, it's a done deal (witness the harbour debacle, progressing despite overwhelming public opposition).

In any case, going by UrbexJunkie's photos (which I note are now missing - Johnny Law must be reaching into boards.ie with his incredibly irritating, impotent arm....GO SOLVE SOME CRIMES LADS!), the hotel is now structurally unsound and unsalvageable. Amazing how quickly these places, even the modern parts, degrade as soon as the heating is turned off and the damp gets in.

Just very sad really.

RosieJoe

vinpaul wrote: »

Delgany Inn is boarded up Tavern/Inn on the way into Delgany Village, just before Churchyard as you approach from N11.
Another eyesore that is developing in Greystones is "Cullenmore", a large detached house adjacent to Tesco Supermarket. Due to be demolished and site incorporated into the proposed development. House broken into before Christmas, set on fire, now boarded up and becoming another blot on the landscape. Anybody got any news on the planned Tesco development. Seems to be dragging on now for some time!!

matt-dublin wrote: »

Current site due to be knocked this year I believe

doylerd wrote: »

Would be terrible if the site was knocked, for heritage/nostalgia reasons, but it's unlikely any developer would take on that project if they had to retain what is, let's face it, not exactly a handsome facade. Anyway how awful would that facade connected to a modern backing look? Probably quite.

There's no doubt that we would regret demolition hugely, probably as soon as the first walls come crashing down, but it's likely inevitable. It's clear that once the Council decides on something, it's a done deal (witness the harbour debacle, progressing despite overwhelming public opposition).

In any case, going by UrbexJunkie's photos (which I note are now missing - Johnny Law must be reaching into boards.ie with his incredibly irritating, impotent arm....GO SOLVE SOME CRIMES LADS!), the hotel is now structurally unsound and unsalvageable. Amazing how quickly these places, even the modern parts, degrade as soon as the heating is turned off and the damp gets in.

Just very sad really.

I think the comment from Matt about the site being demolished is with regard to the previous post about the Tesco development.