DTT: RTENL2 now in HD!

Mayo Exile

Originally posted this in the "Clermont Carn DTT tests" thread, but it probably deserves a thread of its own! RTENL2 is now in HD (1080 lines) as part of the DTT tests. Any significance to this I wonder.....

Apogee

Testcard running at 1440x1088 at ~2Mbps. RTÉ2 is running at 5-6Mbps.

Bob_Harris

They need to start broadcasting "HD Ireland" again so we can watch less than SD 50's footage upscaled.

Also that cop show which was nice to look at.

Mayo Exile

Yes. Nice if they put something on it to look at. 2 images:

watty

Apogee wrote: »

Testcard running at 1440x1088 at ~2Mbps. RTÉ2 is running at 5-6Mbps.

same as BBC's not quite HD terrestrial

1920x1080 is the proper biz. The rescalling needed for 1920x1080 or 1366x768 screens degrades 1440.

Tonio

I wonder is there any possibility RTÉ will show the World Cup games in HD...even on a test basis? Probably wishful thinking...

Mr McBoatface

Tonio wrote: »

I wonder is there any possibility RTÉ will show the World Cup games in HD...even on a test basis? Probably wishful thinking...

I was thinking that myself , maybe the RTENL engineers are thinking that too

mossym

Tonio wrote: »

I wonder is there any possibility RTÉ will show the World Cup games in HD...even on a test basis? Probably wishful thinking...

would be nicer to have them show something the bbc and utv hd channels won't be showing, like the gaa for the summer, however as they can get the world cup feed from somewhere else that's probably a better bet

pa990

maybe a soarview HD promo channel.

zaphodbeeb

I'm getting the tv channels etc on 738 MHz.... do I need to scan another frequency? I think my tv will only do a full system rescan (thereby jumbling up my analogue stations as well) but I can tell it to scan specific frequencies...

Biffo The Bare

pa990 wrote: »

maybe a soarview HD promo channel.

That type of thing gets boring very quickly and gives people false hope. Launch the bleedin thing already.

Bob_Harris

zaphodbeeb wrote: »

I'm getting the tv channels etc on 738 MHz.... do I need to scan another frequency? I think my tv will only do a full system rescan (thereby jumbling up my analogue stations as well) but I can tell it to scan specific frequencies...

Just scan the same frequency again and the newer channels will show up.

SRB

mossym wrote: »

would be nicer to have them show something the bbc and utv hd channels won't be showing, like the gaa for the summer, however as they can get the world cup feed from somewhere else that's probably a better bet

UTV don't have an HD channel, though that is another story....

Apogee

Tested this evening with a Sagem Picnic box, scans in and audio is OK but no picture, confirming that these boxes are MPEG4 SD only - not surprising considering their originally proposed use in the UK.

STB

Tonio wrote: »

I wonder is there any possibility RTÉ will show the World Cup games in HD...even on a test basis? Probably wishful thinking...

Well they do have the rights to all the games!

Or could it be the RTE enginners playing with the TV anoraks! or just showing off the Tandberg HD encoders.

Martin_F

STB wrote: »

Well they do have the rights to all the games!

Or could it be the RTE enginners playing with the TV anoraks! or just showing off the Tandberg HD encoders.

If RTE were a proper commercial outfit - they would have planned to launch this thing in time for the world cup - on the back of a 'Watch the world cup in HD' campaign - just like every one else is doing (Sky/Freesat). What better way to stimulate interest in DTT/Saorview. If the test channels do carry the matches in HD it will be a good - but the real commercial opportunity will have been missed.

The Cush

Apogee wrote: »

Testcard running at 1440x1088 at ~2Mbps. RTÉ2 is running at 5-6Mbps.

Apogee wrote: »

The RTÉNL2 testcard is now transmitting in 1440x1088 resolution. It won't display on the Sagem and Skyline boxes, because they are MPEG4 SD boxes and are not MPEG4 HD compatible.

Is it 1440x1080 or 1440x1088?

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Is it 1440x1080 or 1440x1088?

Anything I have tested it on said 1440x1088.

Sam Russell

Karsini wrote: »

Anything I have tested it on said 1440x1088.

That is 720 by 544 doubled in each direction. Four times RTE2 resolution, which has the best of the rest.

Pat Gleeson

All channels are automatically upscaled via PS3 / PlayTV, but there is definitely an improvement in resolution on the RTENL2 test channel.

Is there anyone that can be contacted in RTENL to answer any questions - even off the record?

I'd love to see them put the other 3 channels back to 720x576 (why is RTÉ 2 at 704 anyway?), the picture is lousy on them at 544.

pa990

i'll be happy as long as they don't shut it down between now and the launch
My analogue is only ok

Sponge Bob

pa990 wrote: »

i'll be happy as long as they don't shut it down between now and the launch
My analogue is only ok

It came on for the Hurling and the footie World Cup did it ???

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Is it 1440x1080 or 1440x1088?

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is 720 by 544 doubled in each direction. Four times RTE2 resolution, which has the best of the rest.

Did a little research since I posted last, the EBU calls it 1440 x 1080i/25 and that some 1080i/25 broadcasts use horizontal sub-sampling (to reduce bitrare) with 1440 pixels per line instead of 1920 (x1080i/25) which then requires upscaling on a 1920x1080 display.

1440x1080i/25 displays 1440 pixels per line at 25 full frames per second or 50 half frames per second with each half-frame scanning 540 lines with 1440 pixels per line.

The EBU recommend 1280x720p/50 -1280 pixels per line, 720 lines at 50 full frames per second for motion footage.

Are we being cheated a little when they use 1440x1080i/25 (1440 pixels on 540 lines per scan) instead of 1920x1080i/25 (1920 pixels on 540 lines per scan) compared to 1280x720p/50 (1280 pixels on 720 lines per scan).

Of the broadcast formats mentioned in the last paragraph, if we had a choice, which is better more pixels per line or lines per scan?

My Sony's resolution is 1366x768i/25 so not much missed in horizontal res (1440).

What resolution (?x576i/25) are the other channels running at the moment?

1920x1080p/50 (1920 pixels on 1080 lines per scan) is no doubt some distance away yet because of the higher bitrate required.

For info i=interlaced scan (2 scans per sec / half the lines per scan), p=progressive scan (1 scan per sec / all the lines per scan)

Edit: just been reading elsewhere another reason why broadcasters transmit at 1440x1080 is that many of the HD Cameras used in the industry scan at 1920x1080 but record at 1440x1080 so no further upscaling or downscaling required.

IrishHomer

Martin_F wrote: »

If RTE were a proper commercial outfit - they would have planned to launch this thing in time for the world cup - on the back of a 'Watch the world cup in HD' campaign - just like every one else is doing (Sky/Freesat). What better way to stimulate interest in DTT/Saorview. If the test channels do carry the matches in HD it will be a good - but the real commercial opportunity will have been missed.

Ah all going to plan i'd say they are gearing up towards the Worlk cup alright but the 2014 world Cup

The Cush

Karsini wrote: »

I'd love to see them put the other 3 channels back to 720x576 (why is RTÉ 2 at 704 anyway?), the picture is lousy on them at 544.

All part of the tests I guess, in the UK BBC has a resolution of 720x576, Channel 4 & ITV 704x576 and the other channels on the PSB muxes running at 544x576 based on the latest info I could find. Ofcom mandates a min resolution for the analogue channels now on freeview.

I guess they're working out which resolution they can get away with here.

Apogee

RTÉ1, RTÉNL 1, TG4, RTÉ News Now 544x576
RTÉ2 704x576

Original HD Ireland Trials 1920x1088

SRB

Had a look at this test channel on an original BT Vision box today - while the box displays the channel on any TV connected (even via it's RF out) it only displays for 30 seconds, then the box freezes. The same thing always used to happen on the BT Vision box when the transmissions first started, all the RTE channels would run for a while and then freeze, they've been fine though since the end of last year.

Sponge Bob

I can see it from Maghera on a Net Gem box. Shame the telly is SD though

Pat Gleeson

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I can see it from Maghera on a Net Gem box. Shame the telly is SD though

Well, it's only a testcard so you're not missing much !:D

Stinicker

Receiving RTÉNL2 in 1080i on my Technomate TM-6900 HD Combo from Mullaghanish. The picture is sharp, I hope they run the world cup on that channel in HD.

slegs

Stinicker wrote: »

Receiving RTÉNL2 in 1080i on my Technomate TM-6900 HD Combo from Mullaghanish. The picture is sharp, I hope they run the world cup on that channel in HD.

I doubt RTE have paid for HD feeds but they may upscale from the SD feeds

Sam Russell

slegs wrote: »

I doubt RTE have paid for HD feeds but they may upscale from the SD feeds

I thought they had put in a fibre network to feed all the main TXs.

pa990

hopefully they'll simulcast rte2 in hd on rtenl2.. during the world cup... purely as a test

Sam Russell

pa990 wrote: »

hopefully they'll simulcast rte2 in hd on rtenl2.. during the world cup... purely as a test

hopefully they'll broadcast rte2 in hd .. during the world cup... purely as a test

SRB

It would really depend if they have any HD ready playout areas to broadcast an HD service from - given the economic climate I can't see one being staffed "just for tests".

Sponge Bob

all the world cup feeds are in HD anyway, they have to downconvert them to SD , 25 of them are even fed in 3D

slegs

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought they had put in a fibre network to feed all the main TXs.

I meant the World Cup HD broadcast feeds not the transmission.

Just because the feeds may are delivered in HD it doesnt mean that it costs the same for RTE to rebroadcast in HD. This is about what RTE have paid for not what is technically possible.

Sam Russell

slegs wrote: »

I meant the World Cup HD broadcast feeds not the transmission.

Just because the feeds may are delivered in HD it doesnt mean that it costs the same for RTE to rebroadcast in HD. This is about what RTE have paid for not what is technically possible.

I did not realise that HD costs more than SD. Oh well, you learn something every day.

dunleas

perhaps a HD promo drive for the rugby world cup 2011 would be a lot more realistic:)

10000maniacs

dunleas wrote: »

perhaps a HD promo drive for the rugby world cup 2011 would be a lot more realistic:)

What did the HD promo give us in 2007?, false hope.
I think everything that needs to be tested is tested. Just launch the shagger.

Sam Russell

10000maniacs wrote: »

What did the HD promo give us in 2007?, false hope.
I think everything that needs to be tested is tested. Just launch the shagger.

They have not put programme out in HD yet. Don't rush them. Then they have to try putting it all together, the SD channels, the HD channel, all the radios, and then the DAB radios. All at the same time. Tricky stuff.

zaphodbeeb

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have not put programme out in HD yet. Don't rush them. Then they have to try putting it all together, the SD channels, the HD channel, all the radios, and then the DAB radios. All at the same time. Tricky stuff.

Em... haven't they done [aren't they doing] that already.

I mean (as stated often on these forums) all the Irish TV channels are there bar TV3 (which could be added to the channel with the test card at the flick of a software switch). All the RTE radio channels are there and there's now the HD channel. The independent radio channels aren't on DAB afaik - that's a whole different issue....

So it is all working at the minute. The HD channel might not have broadcast an HD programme but it is broadcasting an animated test card so again, flick of the switch stuff.

I'm thinking that the problem is with rights to HD programming. If Sky can / are charging a 15 euro premium to their own customers then one of two things must be happening - either the same content does cost more in HD (either from the content providers or to broadcast or BOTH) or they're scalping people while they can.

Eventually there won't be any premium on HD as eventually HD will become the new SD as SD gets phased out.

-ZB

John mac

zaphodbeeb wrote: »

I'm thinking that the problem is with rights to HD programming. If Sky can / are charging a 15 euro premium to their own customers then one of two things must be happening - either the same content does cost more in HD (either from the content providers or to broadcast or BOTH) or they're scalping people while they can.
-ZB

BBC and ITV. are free .

10000maniacs

zaphodbeeb wrote: »

Em... haven't they done [aren't they doing] that already.

I mean (as stated often on these forums) all the Irish TV channels are there bar TV3 (which could be added to the channel with the test card at the flick of a software switch). All the RTE radio channels are there and there's now the HD channel. The independent radio channels aren't on DAB afaik - that's a whole different issue....

So it is all working at the minute. The HD channel might not have broadcast an HD programme but it is broadcasting an animated test card so again, flick of the switch stuff.

I'm thinking that the problem is with rights to HD programming. If Sky can / are charging a 15 euro premium to their own customers then one of two things must be happening - either the same content does cost more in HD (either from the content providers or to broadcast or BOTH) or they're scalping people while they can.

Eventually there won't be any premium on HD as eventually HD will become the new SD as SD gets phased out.

-ZB

HD is the last card that Ryan and the BAI have to play, they have lost all of the other plays, so the are holding the HD card for the final hand.
The problem is that Freesat, UPC and UK freeview all have royal flushes.

zaphodbeeb

Might be the last hand but it's a good one - particularly if they could get HD going for the world cup.

They've absolutely missed an opportunity here *BUT* it would do them a power of good to have those with HD capable tvs going on about how amazing the world cup looks in HD from RTE's new channel thingy.... could give the DTT thing a serious shot in the arm.

Almost everyone I know who has sky DOES NOT have Sky HD. Even me best buddy the other night was saying "Sure the standard definition is grand ... recession etc". (Actually I only know one person who has Sky HD and loads of people with Sky).

So, free HD feed from RTE for World Cup could only be good for all involved. The positive feedback would (I think anyway) be tremendous. The only HD I see on my tv currently is from Blu-Ray :-)

Minstrel27

zaphodbeeb wrote: »

If Sky can / are charging a 15 euro premium to their own customers then one of two things must be happening - either the same content does cost more in HD (either from the content providers or to broadcast or BOTH) or they're scalping people while they can.

Sky are charging the monthly premium to maximise profits. Before HD came along they charged extra for the recording facility on a Sky+ box.

Apogee

As currently configured, there is insufficient bandwidth to run a separate HD channel for the World Cup or anything else.

Bob_Harris

Apogee wrote: »

As currently configured, there is insufficient bandwidth to run a separate HD channel for the World Cup or anything else.

Except for all of the empty commercial muxes.

Sam Russell

HD will need checking for bit rates, and for reception conditions. Presumably they will use a statmux, so its performance will need checking with real programme, not test cards. All known stuff, but worth checking never the less.

Of course they should launch now, there is no real excuse anymore. They could continue checks and trials on one of the commercial muxes if they need to keep switching it on and off. Have they even decided the configuration they will use, which channels could be HD from launch? Even how many channels are they going to launch? Six channels are on the test mux, is that the number, or is the RTNL Test 2 (HD) just a test?

And when they do launch, they could announce ASO for the main transmitters as soon as possible thereafter, so they can get the whole switchover and switch off underway. What is the point of the delay? Nothing is gained by anyone.

Apogee

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Except for all of the empty commercial muxes.

Which will remain empty.