Another one Down..

abouttobebanned

The Belfry is to close at the start of June.

I believe Pennys have bought it.

Will there be anything left?

decies

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The Belfry is to close at the start of June.

I believe Pennys have bought it.

Will there be anything left?

Ah the chapter house

19.5V

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The Belfry is to close at the start of June.

I believe Pennys have bought it.

Will there be anything left?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ2oXzrnti4

Its back!

jayboi

I wonder what plans pennys could have? Car park is the best i can come up with. Id imagine their new store already offers most if not all their produce they would hardly have need for a whole hotel.

I dont think something the size of a hotel should have ever of gotten planning permission in the first place but I suppose it was a sign of the times.

In some cases its a pity this didnt happen sooner i mean if it had maybe with the space pennys would had the council could have come to some agreement with them and done a better job of opening up blackfriars.

19.5V

jayboi wrote: »

I wonder what plans pennys could have? Car park is the best i can come up with. Id imagine their new store already offers most if not all their produce they would hardly have need for a whole hotel.

I dont think something the size of a hotel should have ever of gotten planning permission in the first place but I suppose it was a sign of the times.

In some cases its a pity this didnt happen sooner i mean if it had maybe with the space pennys would had the council could have come to some agreement with them and done a better job of opening up blackfriars.

Jeezes I hope that there is more imagination shown than another car-park!

A hotel is part of the life and soul of the inner part of any city, and draws people in for overnights and brings atmosphere to day and nightlife another car-park would be another disaster.......then again this is a Banama Republic

jo06555

19.5V wrote: »

Jeezes I hope that there is more imagination shown than another car-park!

A hotel is part of the life and soul of the inner part of any city, and draws people in for overnights and brings atmosphere to day and nightlife another car-park would be another disaster.......then again this is a Banama Republic

IF its another car park in city its another nail in citys coffin

merlante

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The Belfry is to close at the start of June.

I believe Pennys have bought it.

Will there be anything left?

Well Penneys presumably...

abouttobebanned

yeah. Thanks for that.

dayshah

jo06555 wrote: »

IF its another car park in city its another nail in citys coffin

Ah, I remember when all there was just car-parks.

City square was a car park, and so was the back of the cathedral/Belfry. My mother used to park there on our way to Sunday mass.

JPA

How many years has that been there?

dayshah

JPA wrote: »

How many years has that been there?

Which? Belfry or city square?

I suppose the Belfry is there since about the year 2000.

19.5V

dayshah wrote: »

Ah, I remember when all there was just car-parks.

City square was a car park, and so was the back of the cathedral/Belfry. My mother used to park there on our way to Sunday mass.

Showing your age

baronflyguy

Ah bummer, I like the Belfry
They did a great job doing it up and it fitted in well where it is located.
I would hate to see a bloody car park replace it.

merlante

Is this another one of those threads where a big deal is made about something closing down and nothing is said about things opening up? And everyone goes on about the town dying, etc., etc. Because we have had a few hotel open up over the past few years as well. e.g. Fitzwilton, Travelodge, Ramada, Arlington Lodge, and more I'm sure.

AdMMM

Arlington Lodge is closed for most of the Summer due to fire damage and the Fitzwilton is one of those zombie hotels which contributes little to the area. Ramada look to be doing good corporate trade although that sector has become difficult to operate in due to falling numbers of corporate travellers. Travel Lodge will always keep ticking over although whereas they were once out on their own in terms of prices, they're coming under a bit of pressure now as room rates plummet sector-wide.

Waterford has too many hotel rooms as it is and could probably do with losing another hotel (a couple spring to mind but at the risk of having the Woodlands Hotel look at my user profile again, I'd rather not speculate)

abouttobebanned

merlante wrote: »

Is this another one of those threads where a big deal is made about something closing down and nothing is said about things opening up? And everyone goes on about the town dying, etc., etc. Because we have had a few hotel open up over the past few years as well. e.g. Fitzwilton, Travelodge, Ramada, Arlington Lodge, and more I'm sure.

No. This is a thread about a popular bar restaurant and hotel closing down and people losing jobs. If you want to start a thread about something opening up then feel free to do so.

merlante

AdMMM wrote: »

Arlington Lodge is closed for most of the Summer due to fire damage and the Fitzwilton is one of those zombie hotels which contributes little to the area. Ramada look to be doing good corporate trade although that sector has become difficult to operate in due to falling numbers of corporate travellers. Travel Lodge will always keep ticking over although whereas they were once out on their own in terms of prices, they're coming under a bit of pressure now as room rates plummet sector-wide.

Waterford has too many hotel rooms as it is and could probably do with losing another hotel (a couple spring to mind but at the risk of having the Woodlands Hotel look at my user profile again, I'd rather not speculate)

Well we have a few people come over to a meeting in Waterford that stayed in that so-called zombie hotel, which was very convenient. I think of all the places in Ireland that built too many hotels, Waterford is hardly one of them. There might be excess beds now, but it is a recession after all.

merlante

abouttobebanned wrote: »

No. This is a thread about a popular bar restaurant and hotel closing down and people losing jobs. If you want to start a thread about something opening up then feel free to do so.

Hmm... lets look at your first post:

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The Belfry is to close at the start of June.

I believe Pennys have bought it.

Will there be anything left?

Look at the question you asked and tell me that it's clearly more about all the lovely people who will lose their jobs and not another moaning thread about "the whole town closing".

Fair enough if that's what you meant, but it's not clear from the post.

abouttobebanned

Personally I'm not sure why you're nitpicking the post, but I'll take the bait.

Firstly, with regard to the Belfry.

I used to enjoy going in their for lunch. bernie, the waitress and bar tender, was an absolute joy. Mick, another bar-man, was a gent. The food was lovely and there was always a good atmosphere inside. The hotel welcomed a lot of hens and stags at a time when the Tower Hotel decided they were too good for that kind of clientele. (They've since changed their minds about that unsurprisingly.) People left after a weekend in the Belfry, content and happy.

All those staff members will now be out of work and another nice bar/restaurant/hotel will be wiped off the map.

I could go through a list of all the bars that have closed in Waterford in the last 2 years but I don't think you need me to do that. I could also list all the shops that have come and gone - again, I don't think you'd need that either.

Let me get this straight though, what you want us to do, is close our eyes to the places that are closing, and only concentrate on the new places that are opening. Ah yes, the new places that are opening. The new Waterford Crystal. Or Waterford Crystal Lite, as it could be known. Yes, that's fantastic, will bring some summer business to that end of town and the whole area will look a lot nicer.

But what about the rest of town?

We have a bar, in harveys, that is more expensive than 90% of the bars in Dublin, yet is still packed week in and week out, but Irish people are sheep and they'll go there without even thinking at this stage. Dare I say they go there cause they see it as being up-market and they consider themselves the same? Do they look at places like Rubys, Escape and the Kazbar as being beneath them? I dunno...I'm just speculating for the sake of it.

I'm all for new things popping up in the town, God knows I'm involved in some of those new things. But we also need to stop the old things from closing...because another thing God knows is that Waterford people love reflecting on things that used to be there. "Jaysus wasn't Egans great?" "Ah remember the City arms?" Yeah, they closed due to lack of customers.

Welcome the new, try and protect the old.

merlante

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Personally I'm not sure why you're nitpicking the post, but I'll take the bait.

Firstly, with regard to the Belfry.

I used to enjoy going in their for lunch. bernie, the waitress and bar tender, was an absolute joy. Mick, another bar-man, was a gent. The food was lovely and there was always a good atmosphere inside. The hotel welcomed a lot of hens and stags at a time when the Tower Hotel decided they were too good for that kind of clientele. (They've since changed their minds about that unsurprisingly.) People left after a weekend in the Belfry, content and happy.

All those staff members will now be out of work and another nice bar/restaurant/hotel will be wiped off the map.

I could go through a list of all the bars that have closed in Waterford in the last 2 years but I don't think you need me to do that. I could also list all the shops that have come and gone - again, I don't think you'd need that either.

Let me get this straight though, what you want us to do, is close our eyes to the places that are closing, and only concentrate on the new places that are opening. Ah yes, the new places that are opening. The new Waterford Crystal. Or Waterford Crystal Lite, as it could be known. Yes, that's fantastic, will bring some summer business to that end of town and the whole area will look a lot nicer.

But what about the rest of town?

We have a bar, in harveys, that is more expensive than 90% of the bars in Dublin, yet is still packed week in and week out, but Irish people are sheep and they'll go there without even thinking at this stage. Dare I say they go there cause they see it as being up-market and they consider themselves the same? Do they look at places like Rubys, Escape and the Kazbar as being beneath them? I dunno...I'm just speculating for the sake of it.

I'm all for new things popping up in the town, God knows I'm involved in some of those new things. But we also need to stop the old things from closing...because another thing God knows is that Waterford people love reflecting on things that used to be there. "Jaysus wasn't Egans great?" "Ah remember the City arms?" Yeah, they closed due to lack of customers.

Welcome the new, try and protect the old.

My problem is that people are constantly using the argument that such and such a place is closing, therefore there are less shops in town, and if this trend continues there'll be nowhere open. You have to balance this argument with what opened up, that's all I'm saying.

For example, any thread that says there are less pubs in the city centre because Egans, The Stand and DaVincis are closed, should also account for the fact that Twister Vics, Dignity and Revolution have opened. Otherwise the argument makes absolutely no sense. (Now I know that the Tweedy bars are in a strange place at the moment, but this will hopefully be temporary.)

People are all too aware of what is closing but don't seem to be aware of what is opening up, with the end result that everyone is under the impression that there are more places closing than opening, which is not what is happening in general.

If you like the Belfry and will miss it, so be it, I have no problem with people posting about the fact they'll miss a hotel when it's closed. As to the staff, hopefully they will find a job elsewhere, perhaps in one of our ghost hotels...

ex_infantry man

they,ll probably go ahead with there plans for a bt2 to be build there????

19.5V

Part of our problem with the downfall irish towns has to do with planning and the market.

In most European cities what is there stays there, in other words if its a bread shop today the chances are that it will be a bread shop in 100 years.

Here it could be a bread shop today, but next week it will be a mobile phone shop and the week after that a head shop and then a golf shop, all out for the quick buck supported by banks, government and local authorities. All very well in (so called) times of plenty.

The town and country requires planners that will plan for the best possible future of support for its citizens, and not parish-pump-politics if such planning was to exist the quick buck would be relagated to a lesser important role for future citizens.

I was present at a marketing event recently, here I was educated to believe that we here in Ireland have 5 times the retail space than our cousins in the UK, if this is true where does this leave us?
There are hotels in ireland that find the competition from bank-owned-hotels too much and will go under. These are business that are placed at an unfair advantage because the banks own them and are not operating at a level playing field

I also understand that we have x hundreds too much hotel beds available, yet new ones that were built in areas that circle this town are allowed to prosper while others perish for reasons known and unknown.

Waterford is now a doughnut evertything around the outside and nothing in the middle!

Sully

ex_infantry man wrote: »

they,ll probably go ahead with there plans for a bt2 to be build there????

BT2? As in, Brown Thomas 2? Penneys, afaik, have nothing to do with Brown Thomas..

THall04

I sympathise with the regulars and staff of the Belfry…but to be honest I’ve more fond memories of the car park that was there before it.

In the ten years its been there, I was never in the Belfry , but I missed the old car park as a handy place to park for 5 mins if you needed to pop into Waterford Electrical of Johnny Hearn’s.

It was sad when Hearns closed , but I couldn’t escape the fact that I’d been going into Woodies for the past decade , mostly because of the handy parking outside it.

I was surprised (but delighted) that Pennys decided to invest in a new store ….But Broad St./Barronstand St. area has been dying a slow death for several years now..... and the pedestrianisation of the centre of town hasn't helped.

The road up Barronstrand St needs to be reopened.....after 6pm the centre of town is a dead black hole...tourists comming out of T&H's are scared of the place and run away.
Egans closed , because the road outside it closed.
Twenty years ago a woman could deposit her boyfriend/husband in Egans on a Saturday afternoon.........go shopping ......and meet him later for a drink after he'd been watching the football/racing....when they were ready ,they could go home in a taxi (or return later in a taxi), from the rank right outside the pub....you can't do that anymore....:mad:

JohnC.

There's a rank up the next street and now down around the corner on the Quay. Are people really that lazy that they would abandon a place because there isn't a rank right outside the door but they might have to walk a few paces instead?

Reopening the street won't change anything, just make it that little more awkward for pedestrians and create a blockage on the Quay with traffic turning there. I don't believe the street opening will magically make the place busier in the evenings either. I don't think that's why the shops close at 5:30 or 6:00. They will still close and it will still be dead, open road or not.

merlante

19.5V wrote: »

Part of our problem with the downfall irish towns has to do with planning and the market.

In most European cities what is there stays there, in other words if its a bread shop today the chances are that it will be a bread shop in 100 years.

Here it could be a bread shop today, but next week it will be a mobile phone shop and the week after that a head shop and then a golf shop, all out for the quick buck supported by banks, government and local authorities. All very well in (so called) times of plenty.

The town and country requires planners that will plan for the best possible future of support for its citizens, and not parish-pump-politics if such planning was to exist the quick buck would be relagated to a lesser important role for future citizens.

I was present at a marketing event recently, here I was educated to believe that we here in Ireland have 5 times the retail space than our cousins in the UK, if this is true where does this leave us?
There are hotels in ireland that find the competition from bank-owned-hotels too much and will go under. These are business that are placed at an unfair advantage because the banks own them and are not operating at a level playing field

I also understand that we have x hundreds too much hotel beds available, yet new ones that were built in areas that circle this town are allowed to prosper while others perish for reasons known and unknown.

Waterford is now a doughnut evertything around the outside and nothing in the middle!

I actually think that the council have been very proactive about keeping comparison shopping in the centre. They blocked M&S from the ORR. TKMaxx and Next slipped through the net, but it's mainly warehouse retail on the outskirts. The problem is that the Newgate centre never opened. That would have/will make it very clear where the shopping is.

I believe there is an issue with rent in Ireland, that it is very high, too high for a business to survive doing a middling trade. There are also other things like rates and insurance that are probably high here. It is very difficult these days for businesses to last, because all you need is a relatively short period of poor trade and you're gone. Logically, most of these rates/rents would reduce until the retail space is occupied, but that does not seem to be the way in Ireland.

It's probably also a cultural thing as well. Irish people seem less likely to open a retail business than, say, the Polish, who are probably opening more places in Waterford than the Irish. And they can't have that much money.

I don't think Ireland can be compared directly to the UK for retail space. In Ireland, a centre of 50-100,000 people is a regional centre for hundreds of thousands of people. In the UK, a centre of 50,000 people is probably only a regional centre for itself, and even then, probably has a lot of competition from the large cities.

19.5V

merlante wrote: »

I actually think that the council have been very proactive about keeping comparison shopping in the centre. They blocked M&S from the ORR. TKMaxx and Next slipped through the net, but it's mainly warehouse retail on the outskirts. The problem is that the Newgate centre never opened. That would have/will make it very clear where the shopping is.

I believe there is an issue with rent in Ireland, that it is very high, too high for a business to survive doing a middling trade. There are also other things like rates and insurance that are probably high here. It is very difficult these days for businesses to last, because all you need is a relatively short period of poor trade and you're gone. Logically, most of these rates/rents would reduce until the retail space is occupied, but that does not seem to be the way in Ireland.

It's probably also a cultural thing as well. Irish people seem less likely to open a retail business than, say, the Polish, who are probably opening more places in Waterford than the Irish. And they can't have that much money.

I don't think Ireland can be compared directly to the UK for retail space. In Ireland, a centre of 50-100,000 people is a regional centre for hundreds of thousands of people. In the UK, a centre of 50,000 people is probably only a regional centre for itself, and even then, probably has a lot of competition from the large cities.

What are your thoughts on the Ferrybank shopping Centre and the small shopping units in Abbey park both within a stones throw.

Again 5 times the retail space more than the UK per head..........I think you need to think a bit more on this one.....We irish can only shop a certain amount per week/month, 5 times the retail space is 5 times the retail space no matter where you live.

If Ferrybank is to open do you think that it will have a positive effect on Waterford city?

AdMMM

I'd imagine that figure refers to land zoned for retail as opposed to land actually utilised for retail. During the boom, planning permission was sought (and often [arguably incorrectly] granted) for land to be zoned as retail as a form of speculation and to maximise the value of the investment.

19.5V

AdMMM wrote: »

I'd imagine that figure refers to land zoned for retail as opposed to land actually utilised for retail. During the boom, planning permission was sought (and often [arguably incorrectly] granted) for land to be zoned as retail as a form of speculation and to maximise the value of the investment.

Below graph represents Shopping Centre stock only not total retail space, I dont refer outstanding plans for retail spsce I refer to current retail space perhead of capita is 5 times that of the UK



Sorry for drifting off the subject about Belfry

Bards

19.5V wrote: »

If Ferrybank is to open do you think that it will have a positive effect on Waterford city?

It will have a negative affect on Waterford City centre in that it is yet another out of town retail development that will lure even more shoppers away form the City Centre and with it any chance of the the KRM development going ahead.

ferrybank shopping centre should be knocked, it symbolises everything that is rotten with planning in this country.

it is the wrong type of developemnt built in the wrong place and done solely as a rate gathering excercise by Kilkenny Co. Co.

Do you think for one minute that Kilkenny Co. Co. would allow this development to be built on the N10 outside Kilkenny city? If they did - do you think it would have a positive or negative impact on Kilkenny city centre and it's retail offering

19.5V

Bards wrote: »

It will have a negative affect on Waterford City centre in that it is yet another out of town retail development that will lure even more shoppers away form the City Centre and with it any chance of the the KRM development going ahead.

ferrybank shopping centre should be knocked, it symbolises everything that is rotten with planning in this country.

it is the wrong type of developemnt built in the wrong place and done solely as a rate gathering excercise by Kilkenny Co. Co.

Do you think for one minute that Kilkenny Co. Co. would allow this development to be built on the N10 outside Kilkenny city? If they did - do you think it would have a positive or negative impact on Kilkenny city centre and it's retail offering

I agree, it should be knocked, BUT now that baNAMA are on the scene I have no doubt that they will open it without consideration of the consequences.

Ferrybank is the result of parish-pump-planners and parish-pump-politicians acting to the best of their abilities

AdMMM

You must have used that term about 50 times over the past week!

I do agree with you however

Odats

Sully wrote: »

BT2? As in, Brown Thomas 2? Penneys, afaik, have nothing to do with Brown
Thomas..

Crowd that owns penny's owns bts aswell. The westons afaik

19.5V

AdMMM wrote: »

You must have used that term about 50 times over the past week!

I do agree with you however

Twice & Thanks

Chochese

Sully wrote: »

BT2? As in, Brown Thomas 2? Penneys, afaik, have nothing to do with Brown Thomas..

Penneys (Primark) is owned by Associated British Foods, which in turn is controlled by the owners of Brown Thomas (the Weston family, if memory serves me correct).

There was talk of BT being put into the Egan's plot when ABF aquired it years back, but (obviously) nothing came of it.

merlante

19.5V wrote: »

What are your thoughts on the Ferrybank shopping Centre and the small shopping units in Abbey park both within a stones throw.

Again 5 times the retail space more than the UK per head..........I think you need to think a bit more on this one.....We irish can only shop a certain amount per week/month, 5 times the retail space is 5 times the retail space no matter where you live.

If Ferrybank is to open do you think that it will have a positive effect on Waterford city?

I think the Ferrybank centre would never have gotten through if it was in Waterford city's jurisdiction. I also think that this centre will never be anything more than a neighbourhood centre. Thankfully, in many ways, it didn't get the anchor tenants during the boom that would have had a detrimental affect on shopping patterns in the Waterford area.

There is no way Waterford has 5 times the retail space of a comparable centre in the UK. Waterford has pretty much the same retail space since 1993 when city square opened, before the boom. Waterford's retail provision has been largely static, and has possibly declined, in the century leading up to the opening of city square. Waterford consistently performs at a weaker level in terms of retail trade than its peer cities and perhaps even smaller towns, even during the boom. I am simply not seeing the big glut of retail space that has ruined Waterford. Those figures need to be explained and analysed in the context of Waterford anyway.

But if you are looking for culprits in Ireland, you could look at the likes of Athlone and to a lesser extent Kilkenny that have had retail provision put in during the boom that was way beyond what they could sustain.

What Waterford needs is the Newgate centre to consolidate everything. If we had that centre, then TkMaxx, Next and M&S wouldn't even want to set up on the outskirts, and there would be no Ferrybank centre trying to take advantage of a tricky planning situation. The Newgate centre has planning permission now. Let's pray something is built. I would also make the distinction between primary and secondary retail space. Waterford has too little of the former and too much of the latter.

AdMMM

Unfortunately, I can't ever realistically see the Newgate Centre being built. I can just imagine the archaeological minefield that it would pose when trying to lay foundations!

merlante

Well the permission is there. Some trenches would have been dug as part of the process. Apparently, apart from a church and graveyard, there's not a whole lot there anyway. Certainly nothing compared to City square/Penneys, which are much older sites.

That's not to say that they won't find anything, but really it's a question of cash for Newgate. I think it will be built by somebody when credit gets cheaper and when chains are starting to think about expanding again. I think it could be done now anyway, because there are so many shops not in Waterford currently, but it would be at a higher risk and a higher cost. It will definitely happen at some point though, in some shape or form, because there is money to be made.

dayshah

Part of the Newgate plan was a "5 star" (mug ugly) hotel. Given what has happened to Ard Rí and Belfry I don't think thats on the cards.

I don't think its feasible for the Newgate plan to go ahead in its current form.It should just be a retail development and not make a feck of Michael St.

Yes Boss

dayshah wrote: »

Part of the Newgate plan was a "5 star" (mug ugly) hotel. Given what has happened to Ard Rí and Belfry I don't think thats on the cards.

I don't think its feasible for the Newgate plan to go ahead in its current form.It should just be a retail development and not make a feck of Michael St.

Because Michael Street has such character!! (NOT)

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Part of the Newgate plan was a "5 star" (mug ugly) hotel. Given what has happened to Ard Rí and Belfry I don't think thats on the cards.

I don't think its feasible for the Newgate plan to go ahead in its current form.It should just be a retail development and not make a feck of Michael St.

It wouldn't be 5 star anyway... They could simply postpone the development of the hotel. Also, don't assume that the Belfry closed down because it wasn't doing good business, or because there was no future in it. Egans closed down and that place was doing well enough and had a solid future. It's as likely as the management were incompetent, or got tired of running the place, or they got good money from Penney's to get out of business. There are a hundred reasons why the place might close.

The same people said that City Square was not feasible at that size. 10 years later we were kicking ourselves for not adding an extra floor. The Newgate should go in as planned, they would get the anchor tenants. People would walk over their grannies for an M&S, and that is not the only large retailer absent from Waterford. Look at the business TkMaxx is doing on the ORR. There is massive demand for high st. retailers in Waterford.

As for fecking up Michael st., that street would look a hell of a lot better without that bloody stone masons gone and with the units vacated for the Newgate centre to be occupied with something.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

It wouldn't be 5 star anyway... They could simply postpone the development of the hotel.

My point is that they got permission for a specific plan, that in my view was ridiculous. This was the plan

Major regional shopping destination [I'm ok with that]
> Luxury hotel, leisure & conference centre [no chance]
> Quality residential units [no chance]
> Arts & Culture Centre [no chance]
> Restaurants [no chance]
> Open air auditorium [no chance]

Also as for empty buildings, I don't think thats a good reason to demolish them and replace them with building that are completely out of scale. Here is the brochure. http://www.bannon.ie/easyedit/files/waterford.pdf

The whole development needs to be completely thought out again, to take account of the changed circumstances.

Yes Boss

dayshah wrote: »

My point is that they got permission for a specific plan, that in my view was ridiculous. This was the plan

Major regional shopping destination [I'm ok with that]
> Luxury hotel, leisure & conference centre [no chance]
> Quality residential units [no chance]
> Arts & Culture Centre [no chance]
> Restaurants [no chance]
> Open air auditorium [no chance]

Also as for empty buildings, I don't think thats a good reason to demolish them and replace them with building that are completely out of scale. Here is the brochure. http://www.bannon.ie/easyedit/files/waterford.pdf

The whole development needs to be completely thought out again, to take account of the changed circumstances.[/QUOTE]

With capital projects of that nature, you have to plan into the future and not the present as suggested! We are all aware that Waterford if deficient in quality retail space which takes from it as a destination for shoppers from other regions!!

It is a pity that the planning appeals process was abused, otherwise it would already have been constructed.

comeraghs

Be careful what you say about the white elephant in Ferrybank or a certain Mod will ban you .... no kilkenny slagging allowed ... it´s not funny!


& Yes .... BT / BT2 / Primark are all owned by Gaylon Weston so it is entirely possible ..

Shame to see the city centre lose a hotel .. I don´t think that place was very well marketed ...

Yes Boss

comeraghs wrote: »

Be careful what you say about the white elephant in Ferrybank or a certain Mod will ban you .... no kilkenny slagging allowed ... it´s not funny!


& Yes .... BT / BT2 / Primark are all owned by Gaylon Weston so it is entirely possible ..

Shame to see the city centre lose a hotel .. I don´t think that place was very well marketed ...

The decision by Kilkenny County Council to allow the development of the White Elephant was purely opportunistic (rate chasing) on their behalf. It went against all the strategic principles of developing Cities!! Crazy stuff!!

jayboi

Ah yes Newgate shopping centre!
A terrific story of ignorance and stupidity.

Firstly and I just love this, those of you who can remember when the planning was going through one of the biggest objectors to it was the owner of the army shop on new street he said it would have a serious impact on his business......cut to a over a year later and he’s after bloody moving anyway!!

Then all the local business complaining that it would take away from their businesses? sure if all businesses were to adopt this attitude nothing would ever get built and things would stay the way they are forever, the likes of city square would have never of been built.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

My point is that they got permission for a specific plan, that in my view was ridiculous. This was the plan

Major regional shopping destination [I'm ok with that]
> Luxury hotel, leisure & conference centre [no chance]
> Quality residential units [no chance]
> Arts & Culture Centre [no chance]
> Restaurants [no chance]
> Open air auditorium [no chance]

Also as for empty buildings, I don't think thats a good reason to demolish them and replace them with building that are completely out of scale. Here is the brochure. http://www.bannon.ie/easyedit/files/waterford.pdf

The whole development needs to be completely thought out again, to take account of the changed circumstances.

You don't think that we could do with quality residential units? I'll take the lower rents on quality residential units thank you very much. The recession won't last forever you know.

No Arts and Culture either, you're a hard man.

Restaurants either, yikes. Restaurants are doing a booming trade at the moment apparently, for some reason. Business way up in last two years according to Newstalk. Visited La Boheme, L'Atmosphere and Bodega recently and each time they were quite busy.

Not a fan of open air auditoria either?

If somebody is willing to build all this, and invest in Waterford, and create jobs and activity, and make Waterford a desirable place for people to live and shop, then I'd say great. More power to them. Waterford never got the investment during the boom, so there is room for expansion, even now.

You'd tell him to put his hand back in his pocket no doubt. But I suppose instead we could just all gather around and have wakes for old beloved businesses and celebrate the gradual destruction of the city.

merlante

jayboi wrote: »

Ah yes Newgate shopping centre!
A terrific story of ignorance and stupidity.

Firstly and I just love this, those of you who can remember when the planning was going through one of the biggest objectors to it was the owner of the army shop on new street he said it would have a serious impact on his business......cut to a over a year later and he’s after bloody moving anyway!!

Then all the local business complaining that it would take away from their businesses? sure if all businesses were to adopt this attitude nothing would ever get built and things would stay the way they are forever, the likes of city square would have never of been built.

This is Waterford in a nutshell. Businessmen don't want to see any competition, and play their own part in taking down the city. So when they tell you things like, "the city centre is dying" or "business is down because of pedestrianisation" or "such and such would never work in Waterford," etc., bear in mind you are talking to parochial, small time businessmen who don't want to compete, just make some easy money. And if they can club together to take on new businesses, the council or the public, or whoever, then all the better.

As any economist will tell you, a diverse marketplace will give the best value to consumers and will generate the most business for the market as a whole, provided businesses bother to be competitive. The Newgate centre will/would bring a ton of shoppers to Waterford and the city as a whole would benefit. But all the usual suspects are thinking about is how to deal with the competition. They'd rather a big slice of a small market than a small slice of a much larger market.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

You don't think that we could do with quality residential units? I'll take the lower rents on quality residential units thank you very much. The recession won't last forever you know.

No Arts and Culture either, you're a hard man.

Restaurants either, yikes. Restaurants are doing a booming trade at the moment apparently, for some reason. Business way up in last two years according to Newstalk. Visited La Boheme, L'Atmosphere and Bodega recently and each time they were quite busy.

Not a fan of open air auditoria either?

If somebody is willing to build all this, and invest in Waterford, and create jobs and activity, and make Waterford a desirable place for people to live and shop, then I'd say great. More power to them. Waterford never got the investment during the boom, so there is room for expansion, even now.

You'd tell him to put his hand back in his pocket no doubt. But I suppose instead we could just all gather around and have wakes for old beloved businesses and celebrate the gradual destruction of the city.

Financiers don't particularly care what I want, or what good for Waterford. They don't care about lower rents, or the the benefits of an auditorium on a shopping centres roof.

They care about what will make money.

That's why its not going to happen. Time to move on and design something that can happen.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Financiers don't particularly care what I want, or what good for Waterford. They don't care about lower rents, or the the benefits of an auditorium on a shopping centres roof.

They care about what will make money.

That's why its not going to happen. Time to move on and design something that can happen.

Well, in my opinion, they would make plenty of money, and it can happen. And in fact, given the tract of land they have, and the permission to build, I would say that it is inevitable that somebody will build it within the next few years, maybe minus the hotel, etc., in "phase 1".

I base this on the fact that Waterford/Tramore is 82% of the size of Galway, and 66% of the size of Limerick, but yet these cities have developed hugely during the boom, and seem to be surviving now, whereas Waterford has lagged behind. Even if Waterford built the Newgate centre, it would still have considerably less retail provision than these cities, which have probably overextended themselves. Towns like Athlone and probably Kilkenny certainly have overextended themselves. Just by comparing Waterford's population and retail provision to these other places, it seems pretty clear that the Newgate centre would survive and eventually thrive in Waterford.

What is killing Waterford at the moment is an undersupply of quality and/or suitably large retail units. This combined with the (sensible) council policy of keeping comparison shopping in the city centre and away from the outskirts, means that there are certain highly popular retailers that simply can't get into Waterford, or at least are holding back for a spot in a shopping centre so that they do not have to completely redevelop existing units, ala Penneys. Since Waterford does not have many major retailers, many people, including Waterford people, bypass it for Cork or Dublin. This is why Waterford is relatively weak, not because Waterford people just don't like to shop or because Waterford people are dirt poor (though we are somewhat poorer).

My worry is that the opinion of the "dogs in the street" that Waterford is finished will permeate into the mindset of investors, who might otherwise see Waterford as a good bet based on the numbers. I think that Waterford will not prosper as a shopping destination until we get a large shopping centre with units of the typical sort of size demanded by modern, high street retailers. It is the quickest and surest way of solving our problems, and with the Newgate site bought and with permission secured, and with the location being excellent, it seems to be the right project.

That's my opinion anyway.

Psychedelic

jayboi wrote: »

Ah yes Newgate shopping centre!
A terrific story of ignorance and stupidity.

Firstly and I just love this, those of you who can remember when the planning was going through one of the biggest objectors to it was the owner of the army shop on new street he said it would have a serious impact on his business......cut to a over a year later and he’s after bloody moving anyway!!

Then all the local business complaining that it would take away from their businesses? sure if all businesses were to adopt this attitude nothing would ever get built and things would stay the way they are forever, the likes of city square would have never of been built.

Local businesses were supportive of the Newgage Shopping Centre, not sure where you're getting the idea that they were against if from? It was only army shop guy that objected to Newgate (what a cúnt he is for doing that too, now that he has moved to a different premises). I know a lot of local businesses (includes owners of other shopping centres) and they were all in favour of Newgate.