Property tax will be state's downfall!

Klingon Hamlet

Check out the article here, what a plonker!

TAOISEACH Brian Cowen has signalled that a property tax is being considered for inclusion in the next Budget.


Mr Cowen praised the way that the 'holiday home tax' had brought in extra revenue for hard-pressed local authorities.


"It was a simple tax, it was complied with and it worked well. We have got to look at other areas such as that ... not because you're trying to just impose taxes for the sake of imposing taxes -- we have got to keep expenditure down," he said.


Last week, Mr Cowen said that in hindsight a property tax should have been introduced during the economic boom to cool the property bubble.



The Government has already announced that such a tax is on the way -- but it is not clear when. And there are doubts about how much it will cost each household and how it will be calculated.


The options include a flat tax on every house, a tax based on house size and a tax based on house value.


When asked about the likelihood of a property tax yesterday, Mr Cowen said he had always spoken of the need to broaden the tax system base.


"There are 50pc of those at work who don't pay income tax. In our Programme for Government, we said we are prepared to look at taxes on capital, rather than taxes on income as a way of boosting employment prospects and at the same time ensuring there is a sustainable source of revenue," he said.


Speaking on the Today FM 'Sunday Supplement' show, Mr Cowen also refused to give any guarantee that the old age pensions would be left untouched.

Poverty


He also did not comment on suggestions that a means test would be introduced so that only higher earners would be targeted.


However, TASC (Think tank for Action on Social Change) has warned that a cut could reverse the fall in pensioner poverty.


"Any move to cut the basic state pension in the forthcoming Budget will further increase pensioner poverty, and will also make the task of reforming our pension system to provide a guaranteed income for older people that much harder," said Sinead Pentony, head of TASC policy.


Mr Cowen also failed to give a date for the holding of the three outstanding Dail by-elections. He indicated that the Fine Gael motion in the Dail this week to hold the Waterford by-election would be opposed and defeated by the Government.


However, Green Party Communications Minister Eamon Ryan said his party would like to see the Waterford, Dublin South and Donegal South West by-elections held alongside the election for new Dublin Mayor and a referendum on children's rights this year.


"That's my personal preference. The Government has to go and make a call on it," he told RTE's 'Week in Politics' show.

So imagine the extra tax on pesnioners. And what about all the struggling homeowners who already pay extortionate management fees? Meanwhile the wealthy smile and pay out of their pocketchange.

Meantime the ones he quotes not paying income tax? They're also likely renting or living in council homes. So where will the tax come from there? it won't. The rest of us will pay.

Cowen and the rest of his horde are moneygrabbing narrowminded plonkers. Roll on Tuesday, it's protest time.

average_runner

Property tax is standard across more countries so it should be here also.

"And what about all the struggling homeowners who already pay extortionate management fees?"

Thats hardly a reason for no property tax, its their own fault they bought into that!

As for pensioners, they will not have to pay it or will get a pretty good discount on it like they do for other things.

Banned Account

Oh for the love of Mike - what is the story with all the blanket grumbling? You are angry that wealthy people can afford to pay a tax?

What the hell has this got to do with an anti-bank bail out march?

The tax net is too narrow and no amount of populist rhetoric will change this.

The problem with your line of thought is that you seem to believe that calling the government names will prove to be a workable alternative.

Typical clap trap, all mouth, no trousers, at least there may be some reasoned debate on this forum when you are all out calling for the heads of anyone in a suit.

Klingon Hamlet

average_runner wrote: »

Property tax is standard across more countries so it should be here also.

So we should blindly follow others. OK. Let's match their income tax levels. Wait. The levels differ across the board, right? So each country deals with its taxes independently.

"And what about all the struggling homeowners who already pay extortionate management fees?"

Thats hardly a reason for no property tax, its their own fault they bought into that!

The Affordable Homes scheme focused primarily on offering cheap apartments to borderline applicants. Those same applicants now face rising mortgage payments, job losses, future water tax, costly management fees and now property tax. It's not their fault. They took the word of Cowen to be honest. The same guy who did this.

As for pensioners, they will not have to pay it or will get a pretty good discount on it like they do for other things.

That's an assumption right there. Remember the medical card fiasco AND the recent threat to cut their pension. No-one is safe, no matter their age.

Klingon Hamlet

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Oh for the love of Mike - what is the story with all the blanket grumbling? You are angry that wealthy people can afford to pay a tax?

What the hell has this got to do with an anti-bank bail out march?

The tax net is too narrow and no amount of populist rhetoric will change this.

The problem with your line of thought is that you seem to believe that calling the government names will prove to be a workable alternative.

Typical clap trap, all mouth, no trousers, at least there may be some reasoned debate on this forum when you are all out calling for the heads of anyone in a suit.

We're bailing out toxic banks, fraudulent banks and banks that fed and thrived on greed and still survive on the people's hard-earned money, and are STILL paying their top guys way too much.

How can banks thrive while they claim to need our money...and how can Cowen emantime claim they need more taxes coming in, so rather than follow the US's lead and tax banks directly, they tax the people who are keeping these bloated banks afloat?

Of course there's a connection. Two crimes perpetrated by the one government.

And where's this al talk no trousers stuff coming from? I've worked in banking and seen how they operate. I'm qualified enough to understand how uncompromising and immoral they can be. And to see them flourish while we support them, all while more money is drained from our shrinking wallets...how can one NOT criticise the minds behind this madness?

dromdrom

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

We're bailing out toxic banks, fraudulent banks and banks that fed and thrived on greed and still survive on the people's hard-earned money, and are STILL paying their top guys way too much.
How can banks thrive while they claim to need our money...and how can Cowen emantime claim they need more taxes coming in, so rather than follow the US's lead and tax banks directly, they tax the people who are keeping these bloated banks afloat?

Of course there's a connection. Two crimes perpetrated by the one government.

And where's this al talk no trousers stuff coming from? I've worked in banking and seen how they operate. I'm qualified enough to understand how uncompromising and immoral they can be. And to see them flourish while we support them, all while more money is draine dfrom our shrinking wallets...how can one NOT criticise the minds behind this madness?

Did you have a nice time down by the Dail on Tuesday?

Klingon Hamlet

dromdrom wrote: »

Did you have a nice time down by the Dail on Tuesday?

No I heard about it as it was happening.

dromdrom

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

No I heard about it as it was happening.

Don't worry I'm sure the proletariat will be free soon.

Banned Account

Right so, put the money where the mouth is and explain to me how we get from the march to fixing the problem.

What are you marching for not against?

Tell me what your alternative is, just say that the march turns out to be a success and the government immediately stops the nama process and pulls the government guarantee - what happens next?

average_runner

Marching is just for people with nthing better to be doing!

Wonder how many of the marcher's actually voted in the last election

Klingon Hamlet

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Right so, put the money where the mouth is and explain to me how we get from the march to fixing the problem.

What are you marching for not against?

Tell me what your alternative is, just say that the march turns out to be a success and the government immediately stops the nama process and pulls the government guarantee - what happens next?

NAMA should be 100% transparent.

Anglo Irish has had billions pumped into it and now the folks are saying, Well we might shut it down over 20 years. (So it's the true zombie bank, as claimed by Joan Burton, the only person qualified enough to be our finance minister). Sell off any assets and wind it down immeidately.

The point of my post: taxing property will do what exactly to prices? It'll drop them further, right? Meaning it will scupper the so-called recovery in property prices. It's ridiculous.

If there are half the working population not paying taxes, tax them! Even at a reduced scale, tax them.

Target welfare fraudsters and full-time dolers...the ones on the benefits for years with no interest in returning to work. We are a welfare state making the workers suffer. Protect the disabled and the genuine cases, but there are millions being paid to the lazy and unwilling. Put that money to some good!

Why are people siding with FF in this? I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again.

dromdrom

you gotta love threads like these, article in question is about a property tax, tax's have to be collected somehow, this is just another method of doing so. Country has a huge budget deficit which has to be bridged somehow only 3 ways of doing this
1) Cutting public sector pay- According to our Union Friends this is immoral and unjust why should the little guy (Joe the Guard on €59k a year have to pay)
2) Raising Tax's- According to our union friends this is also unjust, why don't the bankers and developers pay (because these 2 bankrupt sections of society are going to bridge our €20b a year deficit), surely the little guy is not expected to pay for the public services he receives
3) Massive economic growth- Economic growth is immoral and is just a sop to the bankers and nasty greedy capitalists, besides economic growth leads to private sector jobs, you know the type, those despicable people who refuse to pay union subs and work flexibility, how can Ireland hope to move forward as a country when people don't pay union subs, incredible.

All populist bullsh!t,

average_runner

"I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again. "


Oh yeah because they are really different to FF, FG, and the rest.

In fairness FF under Bertie was very close to what Labour is today under Gilmore, Yes Unions how much of a rise you like?????

None of the parties in Ireland are any good or any different from each other.

Cavehill Red

A property tax was needed ten years ago.
It won't do much now, except raise revenue and push a few more into the inevitable negative equity.
Much better would be to reintroduce rates. Local government spends money a lot more wisely than central government (which is not very much, admittedly.)
But at least you'd see the result in services rather than NAMA bailouts or ministerial pensions.

Klingon Hamlet

average_runner wrote: »

"I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again. "


Oh yeah because they are really different to FF, FG, and the rest.

In fairness FF under Bertie was very close to what Labour is today under Gilmore, Yes Unions how much of a rise you like?????

None of the parties in Ireland are any good or any different from each other.

Labour called for Anglo to be either wound down or turned into a toxic bank. FF decided a couple of billions worth of CPR was more effective. Now FF want to wind it down anyway.

Taxes will be introduced. Prices will tumble further. The market will grow more stagnant. Rates will rise. More jobs will go. Prices tumble again, so banks raise rates again.

Hello 1980s. Good luck everyone.

invinciblePRSTV

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Much better would be to reintroduce rates. Local government spends money a lot more wisely than central government (which is not very much, admittedly.)

+1

A property tax of some sort is inevitable, re-introducing domestic rates would do a world of good for developing services provided by local Gov.

Sadly the country needs all the cash it needs to bail out the banks and pay the top earners in the public sector, so it won't go towards local services.

ednwireland

Cavehill Red wrote: »

A property tax was needed ten years ago.
It won't do much now, except raise revenue and push a few more into the inevitable negative equity.
Much better would be to reintroduce rates. Local government spends money a lot more wisely than central government (which is not very much, admittedly.)
But at least you'd see the result in services rather than NAMA bailouts or ministerial pensions.

you really beleive that, really ? been in a council office recentley ? wouldnt trust our county manager to buy me an ice cream

ZYX

A property tax should not affect prices if it is introduced in the same manner as the UK "council tax". There you pay the tax if you own the property or are renting. In this way the tax would be fairer, would raise more money and would not affect someones decision to buy or rent.

Cavehill Red

ednwireland wrote: »

you really beleive that, really ? been in a council office recentley ? wouldnt trust our county manager to buy me an ice cream

I said they spent money badly. But they do spend it locally on services, as opposed to NAMA bailouts, etc.
I'd rather it was in the hands of the councils than the government, who I wouldn't trust full stop.

Banned Account

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

NAMA should be 100% transparent.

Anglo Irish has had billions pumped into it and now the folks are saying, Well we might shut it down over 20 years. (So it's the true zombie bank, as claimed by Joan Burton, the only person qualified enough to be our finance minister). Sell off any assets and wind it down immeidately.

The point of my post: taxing property will do what exactly to prices? It'll drop them further, right? Meaning it will scupper the so-called recovery in property prices. It's ridiculous.

If there are half the working population not paying taxes, tax them! Even at a reduced scale, tax them.

Target welfare fraudsters and full-time dolers...the ones on the benefits for years with no interest in returning to work. We are a welfare state making the workers suffer. Protect the disabled and the genuine cases, but there are millions being paid to the lazy and unwilling. Put that money to some good!

Why are people siding with FF in this? I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again.

This is exactly what i thought i'd get - absolute tosh with no thinking whatsoever. You are saying that the anti-bank bail out march will force the government to resolve our current crisis by targeting welfare fraud and taxing everyone outside the tax net because this will be fairer on OAP's than a property tax?

You don't really know what you are talking about, do you?

dromdrom

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Labour called for Anglo to be either wound down or turned into a toxic bank. FF decided a couple of billions worth of CPR was more effective. Now FF want to wind it down anyway.

Taxes will be introduced. Prices will tumble further. The market will grow more stagnant. Rates will rise. More jobs will go. Prices tumble again, so banks raise rates again.

Hello 1980s. Good luck everyone.

Wow I'm scared , you know what I think this country needs, a left wing administration ready to bend to the public sector unions, hello 1980's is right, lets make sure that the Irish system is maintained and the true insiders are protected, lets make sure that the unconnected are forced to emigrate and the public sector/protected industry unions can continue to leach off this country and force us into economic collapse. You rail against the Banker/Developer Cartel who almost brought this county to its knees, all Gilmore, Horan, Begg and O'Coonnr et al represent is just another Cartel ready to divvy up the resources of this country for the chosen few. A cartel clouded in bullsh!t left wing rhetoric but still a cartel out for their piece of the pie the same as anyone else.

Spudmonkey

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Labour called for Anglo to be either wound down or turned into a toxic bank. FF decided a couple of billions worth of CPR was more effective. Now FF want to wind it down anyway.

Labour/Fine Gael/<insert opposition party> will always call for the opposite of what the government will implement, regardless if it is the right or wrong thing to do. They just choose the most populist idea.

To think Labour would sort out our problems?? :rolleyes:

dogbert27

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

NAMA should be 100% transparent.

What exactly do you want/expect to see with this 100% transparency?

invinciblePRSTV

dogbert27 wrote: »

What exactly do you want/expect to see with this 100% transparency?

To begin with we joe public should be allowed access to see who is employed by NAMA and how much they are being paid. Then NAMA should be brought under the auspices of the FoI Act.

average_runner

Surely Joe Soap should be allowed to see all PS wages then?

dogbert27

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

To begin with we joe public should be allowed access to see who is employed by NAMA and how much they are being paid.

So you read some names with figures beside them. Then what?

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Then NAMA should be brought under the auspices of the FoI Act.

To what end?

Cavehill Red

average_runner wrote: »

Surely Joe Soap should be allowed to see all PS wages then?

Wages, expenses, bonuses, pension entitlements. The lot.

dogbert27

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Wages, expenses, bonuses, pension entitlements. The lot.

Clock in cards, number of sick days taken, toilet breaks, cigarette breaks,etc. :rolleyes:

Nody

OP can you please explain how the 20 Billion budget hole will be fixed? You know the hole that is there not because of banks bailout, NAMA etc. but because of over spending on PS, SW and other daily services from the government. The hole which even with the cost of interest etc. from the NAMA & Bank bailout removed is in the 19 Billion region a year in the reds...

I'd like an answer to that question from every damn poster who comes on here wailing about the latest tax/fee/removal of benefits and how it is unfair to them/their friends/family. Oh and before you say "the rich" should pay for it keep in mind that the top 5% or so already pay in over 80% of the income tax in the country; so good luck on getting more there...

invinciblePRSTV

dogbert27 wrote: »

So you read some names with figures beside them. Then what?


To what end?

It's in the name of transparency old chum, something that has always been lacking from the Irish Government decision making process in years gone by. If you need to be made aware of the reasons as to why FoI legislation is critical in the running of a healthy democracy then maybe you've spent too long in the bunker?.

dogbert27

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's in the name of transparency old chum, something that has always been lacking from the Irish Government decision making process in years gone by. If you need to be made aware of the reasons as to why FoI legislation is critical in the running of a healthy democracy then maybe you've spent too long in the bunker?.

:rolleyes: The majority of people who come on to forums or text in to radio stations all "saw this coming" yet still want to know how we got into this mess.

So again, what would you (joe soap) do with the information once you have it?

Nody

dogbert27 wrote: »

So again, what would you (joe soap) do with the information once you have it?

My friend the King of GabaGaba Land has 50 Million EUR he wants to move out due to being afraid he'll be assassinated and he needs someone who's used to handle a lot of cash to help him. He'll offer 10% of the cash sent out via their bank accounts and since they are used to handle large numbers he feels he can trust them but he need to know who to contact.

invinciblePRSTV

dogbert27 wrote: »

:rolleyes: The majority of people who come on to forums or text in to radio stations all "saw this coming" yet still want to know how we got into this mess.

Not relevant to the point i made.

dogbert27 wrote: »

So again, what would you (joe soap) do with the information once you have it?

Depends on whether or not the information, if provided, has any worrysome details such as potential conflicts of interests which may be of concern to the general public. But really we'd have to see the documents first before deciding what to do with it, hence why it shoud come under the FoI Act.

Care to explain why NAMA shouldn't be subject to FoI?

dogbert27

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Not relevant to the point i made.



Depends on whether or not the information, if provided, has any worrysome details such as potential conflicts of interests which may be of concern to the general public. But really we'd have to see the documents first before deciding what to do with it, hence why it shoud come under the FoI Act.

Care to explain why NAMA shouldn't be subject to FoI?

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption but hasn't everything that is available under the freedom of information already happened?

There would obviously be a time lag between decisions made by NAMA and the when it is available for FOI for which it would be too late for joe soap to do anything about it other then complain in boards and listen to Eamonn Keane whinge at lunch time.

Cavehill Red

dogbert27 wrote: »

Clock in cards, number of sick days taken, toilet breaks, cigarette breaks,etc. :rolleyes:

Yes on clock in cards, yes on transparency in relation to sick days.
My mate is a doctor who specialises in examining long-term sick cases in both the public and private sector. You can guess which has the most malingerers, needless to say.
But you needn't accept anecdotal evidence.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-leave-in-public-service-is-twice-the-rate-of-private-sector-1922474.html
That's from last October. It's time we knocked this gravy train on the head. If opening up such issues to FOI is what is required, then so much the better.
Why do you oppose the public knowing how their money is spent?

irishconvert

average_runner wrote: »

Property tax is standard across more countries so it should be here also..

Ok, so we should match their corporation tax also. Wave goodbye to Intel/HP/Google.

invinciblePRSTV

dogbert27 wrote: »

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption but hasn't everything that is available under the freedom of information already happened?

There would obviously be a time lag between decisions made by NAMA and the when it is available for FOI for which it would be too late for joe soap to do anything about it other then complain in boards and listen to Eamonn Keane whinge at lunch time.

Yes but the whole idea of FoI is that where wrongdoing occurs it can then be eventually exposed, remember JoD and his expenses? beyond that it will mean that those working under the framework of the FoI will act in a professional manner at all times, or alternatively will not pull the piss when in positions of public power.

Given that NAMA involves the unholy trinity of politicians, public servants and agents of the construction/banking industries, a trio not unknown to bend the rules in their own favour where allowed, it's imperative that the decision making process in the entity is transparent and above aboard at all times, having the FoI in place would have meant that this process would eventually be open to public scrutiny.

Clearly you have some underlying issues with the lumpen proletariat who peruse boards and listen to the Radio but i'm not sure how this equates with you being anti FoI.

dogbert27

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Yes on clock in cards, yes on transparency in relation to sick days.
My mate is a doctor who specialises in examining long-term sick cases in both the public and private sector. You can guess which has the most malingerers, needless to say.
But you needn't accept anecdotal evidence.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-leave-in-public-service-is-twice-the-rate-of-private-sector-1922474.html
That's from last October. It's time we knocked this gravy train on the head. If opening up such issues to FOI is what is required, then so much the better.
Why do you oppose the public knowing how their money is spent?

From the CSO in September 2009 the number of public sector employees stood at 360,900.

You want their pay, clock in cards, number of sick days,etc. monitored on a continuous basis so that you Joe Soap feel happy to know where your money is going?
Have you thought about how this would actually be implemented? Who would actually track all this information and correlate it so it is available as FOI for you to look at?

ninty9er

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

We're bailing out toxic banks, fraudulent banks and banks that fed and thrived on greed and still survive on the people's hard-earned money, and are STILL paying their top guys way too much.

You mean the banks that dragged 25 year old couples off the streets, conducted root canals on their brains and forced them to sign up to 100% mortgages. Come off it:rolleyes:

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

And where's this al talk no trousers stuff coming from? I've worked in banking and seen how they operate. I'm qualified enough to understand how uncompromising and immoral they can be. And to see them flourish while we support them, all while more money is drained from our shrinking wallets...how can one NOT criticise the minds behind this madness?

As have I. I've found the banking system to be very sympathetic of people who came and advised the banks that they were struggling BEFORE they ended up 6 months in arrears, people who haven't been heard from and are 18 months behind deserve what they get. You only get help if you ASK for it.

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

What are you marching for not against?

That's the crux of it, isn't it. Nobody is marching FOR anything, apart from their own self interest.

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Why are people siding with FF in this? I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again.

Nobody's siding with FF or against Labour, they're seeing sense.

dromdrom wrote: »

you gotta love threads like these, article in question is about a property tax, tax's have to be collected somehow, this is just another method of doing so. Country has a huge budget deficit which has to be bridged somehow only 3 ways of doing this
1) Cutting public sector pay- According to our Union Friends this is immoral and unjust why should the little guy (Joe the Guard on €59k a year have to pay)

€59k is more than both my parents earn, and only marginally below what all 3 of us bring in. I have NO sympathy. The argument that it's a difficult job is bull**** as it demeans the work others do. Everyone's job is difficult in some way or other.

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Labour called for Anglo to be either wound down or turned into a toxic bank. FF decided a couple of billions worth of CPR was more effective. Now FF want to wind it down anyway.

FF, based on the advice at the time, decided to pump money in, now the advice is changing. It's not like it was just decided lets do this and not consider any other alternative!

Cavehill Red

dogbert27 wrote: »

From the CSO in September 2009 the number of public sector employees stood at 360,900.

You want their pay, clock in cards, number of sick days,etc. monitored on a continuous basis so that you Joe Soap feel happy to know where your money is going?
Have you thought about how this would actually be implemented? Who would actually track all this information and correlate it so it is available as FOI for you to look at?

Those things are already recorded. How do you think the Comptroller and Auditor General was able to identify the stratospheric rates of sick leave in the public sector?
All I want is for that information to be made available under FOI.

changes

Too little to late from these hapless Fianna Failers.

If they left well enough alone years ago instead of buying an election by geting rid of property tax. Now they come at the completely wrong time looking to bring it back in. They really are hopeless shower.

Anyone who bought bewteen 2003 and 2007 should be exempt for a decade and anyone in negative equity should be exempt also imo.

dogbert27

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Yes but the whole idea of FoI is that where wrongdoing occurs it can then be eventually exposed, remember JoD and his expenses? beyond that it will mean that those working under the framework of the FoI will act in a professional manner at all times, or alternatively will not pull the piss when in positions of public power.

Yeah I remember. All that happened was he resigned. He didn't have to pay back any money. I also remember is constiuents being interviewed and backing him to the hilt saying they'll vote for him again in the next election.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Given that NAMA involves the unholy trinity of politicians, public servants and agents of the construction/banking industries, a trio not unknown to bend the rules in their own favour where allowed, it's imperative that the decision making process in the entity is transparent and above aboard at all times, having the FoI in place would have meant that this process would eventually be open to public scrutiny.

We've all known for 2 years now what's been going on with the banks,builders and politicians and what has become of it? Who has been held accountable?

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Clearly you have some underlying issues with the lumpen proletariat who peruse boards and listen to the Radio but i'm not sure how this equates with you being anti FoI.

I'm just tired at this stage of the reading the following:
Mr. X: Something needs to be done!
Dogbert: What do want to do?
Mr. X: The governement need to be held accountable!
Dogbert: How do you propose to do that?
Mr. X: STOP BEING DIFFICULT AND JUST AGREE WITH ME!!

dogbert27

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Those things are already recorded. How do you think the Comptroller and Auditor General was able to identify the stratospheric rates of sick leave in the public sector?
All I want is for that information to be made available under FOI.

So they're already recorded and reported by the comptroller and auditor general?

Is this report (eventually) not made public knowledge through the c&ag website?

Cookie_Monster

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

We're bailing out toxic banks, fraudulent banks and banks that fed and thrived on greed and still survive on the people's hard-earned money....

even taking the banking situation out of the equation the country is still running a massive loss.

Actions need to be taken to correct this, and there are only two. Raise taxes and cut spending. With so many outside the income bracket I think this should be a greater target, no need to up the rates, just make the bands stretch further and create a third higher rate, like France for instance.

Property tax is a sensible one to bring in, hopefully the measurement will be done properly rather than just a blanket x per house.

Cavehill Red

dogbert27 wrote: »

So they're already recorded and reported by the comptroller and auditor general?

Is this report (eventually) not made public knowledge through the c&ag website?

The C+AG has access to the raw information which is collated by the Departments.
His report is focused on his own remit - which is the proper expenditure of state funds.
I want the Departmental data opened up to FOI scrutiny. I suspect that the shocking scale of sick leave and absenteeism in the Public sector would quickly evaporate if people believed that journalists could apply to discover how much work they actually did.

dogbert27

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The C+AG has access to the raw information which is collated by the Departments.
His report is focused on his own remit - which is the proper expenditure of state funds.
I want the Departmental data opened up to FOI scrutiny. I suspect that the shocking scale of sick leave and absenteeism in the Public sector would quickly evaporate if people believed that journalists could apply to discover how much work they actually did.

And then what?

Have an indo journalist go to Mr. Barry the town librarian and demand to know why he was out sick for 11 days in 2009? :rolleyes:

invinciblePRSTV

dogbert27 wrote: »

Yeah I remember. All that happened was he resigned. He didn't have to pay back any money. I also remember is constiuents being interviewed and backing him to the hilt saying they'll vote for him again in the next election.


We've all known for 2 years now what's been going on with the banks,builders and politicians and what has become of it? Who has been held accountable?



I'm just tired at this stage of the reading the following:
Mr. X: Something needs to be done!
Dogbert: What do want to do?
Mr. X: The governement need to be held accountable!
Dogbert: How do you propose to do that?
Mr. X: STOP BEING DIFFICULT AND JUST AGREE WITH ME!!

You sound like a broken and embittered person Dogbert, don't give up on everyone and everything just yet, fight the good fight.

dromdrom

dromdrom wrote: »

Wow I'm scared , you know what I think this country needs, a left wing administration ready to bend to the public sector unions, hello 1980's is right, lets make sure that the Irish system is maintained and the true insiders are protected, lets make sure that the unconnected are forced to emigrate and the public sector/protected industry unions can continue to leach off this country and force us into economic collapse. You rail against the Banker/Developer Cartel who almost brought this county to its knees, all Gilmore, Horan, Begg and O'Coonnr et al represent is just another Cartel ready to divvy up the resources of this country for the chosen few. A cartel clouded in bullsh!t left wing rhetoric but still a cartel out for their piece of the pie the same as anyone else.

/thread.

Cavehill Red

dogbert27 wrote: »

And then what?

Have an indo journalist go to Mr. Barry the town librarian and demand to know why he was out sick for 11 days in 2009? :rolleyes:

Why the hell not?
However I doubt that would be of interest to the national media. More likely they'd look to see whether any higher-ups were having a laugh on the sick, or whether any particular offices or departments had especially outrageous levels of malingering.
Consider it like the ban on spitting in the street. People still do so, disgustingly, but they're much less inclined to do so when they know there could be repercussions.

dogbert27

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Why the hell not?
However I doubt that would be of interest to the national media. More likely they'd look to see whether any higher-ups were having a laugh on the sick, or whether any particular offices or departments had especially outrageous levels of malingering.
Consider it like the ban on spitting in the street. People still do so, disgustingly, but they're much less inclined to do so when they know there could be repercussions.

So because you work in the public sector your private life should be open to scrutiny?!
I suppose you agreed with TV3 putting a gun to Brian Lenihan's head with regard to telling his family before Christmas about his illness or else they would?

Cavehill Red

dogbert27 wrote: »

So because you work in the public sector your private life should be open to scrutiny?!

Who said that? Again I have to ask why are you opposed to information about how the public's money is spent being made available to the public, under a cumbersome and expensive FOI system?

dogbert27 wrote: »

I suppose you agreed with TV3 putting a gun to Brian Lenihan's head with regard to telling his family before Christmas about his illness or else they would?

Why would you suppose that?
That's an utter straw man argument.