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Property tax will be state's downfall!

  • 17-05-2010 12:48PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭


    Check out the article here, what a plonker!
    TAOISEACH Brian Cowen has signalled that a property tax is being considered for inclusion in the next Budget.


    Mr Cowen praised the way that the 'holiday home tax' had brought in extra revenue for hard-pressed local authorities.


    "It was a simple tax, it was complied with and it worked well. We have got to look at other areas such as that ... not because you're trying to just impose taxes for the sake of imposing taxes -- we have got to keep expenditure down," he said.


    Last week, Mr Cowen said that in hindsight a property tax should have been introduced during the economic boom to cool the property bubble.



    The Government has already announced that such a tax is on the way -- but it is not clear when. And there are doubts about how much it will cost each household and how it will be calculated.


    The options include a flat tax on every house, a tax based on house size and a tax based on house value.


    When asked about the likelihood of a property tax yesterday, Mr Cowen said he had always spoken of the need to broaden the tax system base.


    "There are 50pc of those at work who don't pay income tax. In our Programme for Government, we said we are prepared to look at taxes on capital, rather than taxes on income as a way of boosting employment prospects and at the same time ensuring there is a sustainable source of revenue," he said.


    Speaking on the Today FM 'Sunday Supplement' show, Mr Cowen also refused to give any guarantee that the old age pensions would be left untouched.

    Poverty


    He also did not comment on suggestions that a means test would be introduced so that only higher earners would be targeted.


    However, TASC (Think tank for Action on Social Change) has warned that a cut could reverse the fall in pensioner poverty.


    "Any move to cut the basic state pension in the forthcoming Budget will further increase pensioner poverty, and will also make the task of reforming our pension system to provide a guaranteed income for older people that much harder," said Sinead Pentony, head of TASC policy.


    Mr Cowen also failed to give a date for the holding of the three outstanding Dail by-elections. He indicated that the Fine Gael motion in the Dail this week to hold the Waterford by-election would be opposed and defeated by the Government.


    However, Green Party Communications Minister Eamon Ryan said his party would like to see the Waterford, Dublin South and Donegal South West by-elections held alongside the election for new Dublin Mayor and a referendum on children's rights this year.


    "That's my personal preference. The Government has to go and make a call on it," he told RTE's 'Week in Politics' show.

    So imagine the extra tax on pesnioners. And what about all the struggling homeowners who already pay extortionate management fees? Meanwhile the wealthy smile and pay out of their pocketchange.

    Meantime the ones he quotes not paying income tax? They're also likely renting or living in council homes. So where will the tax come from there? it won't. The rest of us will pay.

    Cowen and the rest of his horde are moneygrabbing narrowminded plonkers. Roll on Tuesday, it's protest time.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,895 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Property tax is standard across more countries so it should be here also.

    "And what about all the struggling homeowners who already pay extortionate management fees?"

    Thats hardly a reason for no property tax, its their own fault they bought into that!

    As for pensioners, they will not have to pay it or will get a pretty good discount on it like they do for other things.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Banned Account


    Oh for the love of Mike - what is the story with all the blanket grumbling? You are angry that wealthy people can afford to pay a tax?

    What the hell has this got to do with an anti-bank bail out march?

    The tax net is too narrow and no amount of populist rhetoric will change this.

    The problem with your line of thought is that you seem to believe that calling the government names will prove to be a workable alternative.

    Typical clap trap, all mouth, no trousers, at least there may be some reasoned debate on this forum when you are all out calling for the heads of anyone in a suit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    Property tax is standard across more countries so it should be here also.

    So we should blindly follow others. OK. Let's match their income tax levels. Wait. The levels differ across the board, right? So each country deals with its taxes independently.
    "And what about all the struggling homeowners who already pay extortionate management fees?"
    Thats hardly a reason for no property tax, its their own fault they bought into that!

    The Affordable Homes scheme focused primarily on offering cheap apartments to borderline applicants. Those same applicants now face rising mortgage payments, job losses, future water tax, costly management fees and now property tax. It's not their fault. They took the word of Cowen to be honest. The same guy who did this.
    As for pensioners, they will not have to pay it or will get a pretty good discount on it like they do for other things.

    That's an assumption right there. Remember the medical card fiasco AND the recent threat to cut their pension. No-one is safe, no matter their age.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    Oh for the love of Mike - what is the story with all the blanket grumbling? You are angry that wealthy people can afford to pay a tax?

    What the hell has this got to do with an anti-bank bail out march?

    The tax net is too narrow and no amount of populist rhetoric will change this.

    The problem with your line of thought is that you seem to believe that calling the government names will prove to be a workable alternative.

    Typical clap trap, all mouth, no trousers, at least there may be some reasoned debate on this forum when you are all out calling for the heads of anyone in a suit.

    We're bailing out toxic banks, fraudulent banks and banks that fed and thrived on greed and still survive on the people's hard-earned money, and are STILL paying their top guys way too much.

    How can banks thrive while they claim to need our money...and how can Cowen emantime claim they need more taxes coming in, so rather than follow the US's lead and tax banks directly, they tax the people who are keeping these bloated banks afloat?

    Of course there's a connection. Two crimes perpetrated by the one government.

    And where's this al talk no trousers stuff coming from? I've worked in banking and seen how they operate. I'm qualified enough to understand how uncompromising and immoral they can be. And to see them flourish while we support them, all while more money is drained from our shrinking wallets...how can one NOT criticise the minds behind this madness?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭dromdrom


    We're bailing out toxic banks, fraudulent banks and banks that fed and thrived on greed and still survive on the people's hard-earned money, and are STILL paying their top guys way too much.
    How can banks thrive while they claim to need our money...and how can Cowen emantime claim they need more taxes coming in, so rather than follow the US's lead and tax banks directly, they tax the people who are keeping these bloated banks afloat?

    Of course there's a connection. Two crimes perpetrated by the one government.

    And where's this al talk no trousers stuff coming from? I've worked in banking and seen how they operate. I'm qualified enough to understand how uncompromising and immoral they can be. And to see them flourish while we support them, all while more money is draine dfrom our shrinking wallets...how can one NOT criticise the minds behind this madness?

    Did you have a nice time down by the Dail on Tuesday?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    dromdrom wrote: »
    Did you have a nice time down by the Dail on Tuesday?

    No I heard about it as it was happening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭dromdrom


    No I heard about it as it was happening.

    Don't worry I'm sure the proletariat will be free soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Banned Account


    Right so, put the money where the mouth is and explain to me how we get from the march to fixing the problem.

    What are you marching for not against?

    Tell me what your alternative is, just say that the march turns out to be a success and the government immediately stops the nama process and pulls the government guarantee - what happens next?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,895 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Marching is just for people with nthing better to be doing!

    Wonder how many of the marcher's actually voted in the last election


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    Right so, put the money where the mouth is and explain to me how we get from the march to fixing the problem.

    What are you marching for not against?

    Tell me what your alternative is, just say that the march turns out to be a success and the government immediately stops the nama process and pulls the government guarantee - what happens next?

    NAMA should be 100% transparent.

    Anglo Irish has had billions pumped into it and now the folks are saying, Well we might shut it down over 20 years. (So it's the true zombie bank, as claimed by Joan Burton, the only person qualified enough to be our finance minister). Sell off any assets and wind it down immeidately.

    The point of my post: taxing property will do what exactly to prices? It'll drop them further, right? Meaning it will scupper the so-called recovery in property prices. It's ridiculous.

    If there are half the working population not paying taxes, tax them! Even at a reduced scale, tax them.

    Target welfare fraudsters and full-time dolers...the ones on the benefits for years with no interest in returning to work. We are a welfare state making the workers suffer. Protect the disabled and the genuine cases, but there are millions being paid to the lazy and unwilling. Put that money to some good!

    Why are people siding with FF in this? I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭dromdrom


    you gotta love threads like these, article in question is about a property tax, tax's have to be collected somehow, this is just another method of doing so. Country has a huge budget deficit which has to be bridged somehow only 3 ways of doing this
    1) Cutting public sector pay- According to our Union Friends this is immoral and unjust why should the little guy (Joe the Guard on €59k a year have to pay)
    2) Raising Tax's- According to our union friends this is also unjust, why don't the bankers and developers pay (because these 2 bankrupt sections of society are going to bridge our €20b a year deficit), surely the little guy is not expected to pay for the public services he receives
    3) Massive economic growth- Economic growth is immoral and is just a sop to the bankers and nasty greedy capitalists, besides economic growth leads to private sector jobs, you know the type, those despicable people who refuse to pay union subs and work flexibility, how can Ireland hope to move forward as a country when people don't pay union subs, incredible.

    All populist bullsh!t,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,895 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    "I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again. "


    Oh yeah because they are really different to FF, FG, and the rest.

    In fairness FF under Bertie was very close to what Labour is today under Gilmore, Yes Unions how much of a rise you like?????

    None of the parties in Ireland are any good or any different from each other.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    A property tax was needed ten years ago.
    It won't do much now, except raise revenue and push a few more into the inevitable negative equity.
    Much better would be to reintroduce rates. Local government spends money a lot more wisely than central government (which is not very much, admittedly.)
    But at least you'd see the result in services rather than NAMA bailouts or ministerial pensions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Klingon Hamlet


    "I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again. "


    Oh yeah because they are really different to FF, FG, and the rest.

    In fairness FF under Bertie was very close to what Labour is today under Gilmore, Yes Unions how much of a rise you like?????

    None of the parties in Ireland are any good or any different from each other.

    Labour called for Anglo to be either wound down or turned into a toxic bank. FF decided a couple of billions worth of CPR was more effective. Now FF want to wind it down anyway.

    Taxes will be introduced. Prices will tumble further. The market will grow more stagnant. Rates will rise. More jobs will go. Prices tumble again, so banks raise rates again.

    Hello 1980s. Good luck everyone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Much better would be to reintroduce rates. Local government spends money a lot more wisely than central government (which is not very much, admittedly.)

    +1

    A property tax of some sort is inevitable, re-introducing domestic rates would do a world of good for developing services provided by local Gov.

    Sadly the country needs all the cash it needs to bail out the banks and pay the top earners in the public sector, so it won't go towards local services.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,780 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    A property tax was needed ten years ago.
    It won't do much now, except raise revenue and push a few more into the inevitable negative equity.
    Much better would be to reintroduce rates. Local government spends money a lot more wisely than central government (which is not very much, admittedly.)
    But at least you'd see the result in services rather than NAMA bailouts or ministerial pensions.

    you really beleive that, really ? been in a council office recentley ? wouldnt trust our county manager to buy me an ice cream

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ZYX


    A property tax should not affect prices if it is introduced in the same manner as the UK "council tax". There you pay the tax if you own the property or are renting. In this way the tax would be fairer, would raise more money and would not affect someones decision to buy or rent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    you really beleive that, really ? been in a council office recentley ? wouldnt trust our county manager to buy me an ice cream

    I said they spent money badly. But they do spend it locally on services, as opposed to NAMA bailouts, etc.
    I'd rather it was in the hands of the councils than the government, who I wouldn't trust full stop.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Banned Account


    NAMA should be 100% transparent.

    Anglo Irish has had billions pumped into it and now the folks are saying, Well we might shut it down over 20 years. (So it's the true zombie bank, as claimed by Joan Burton, the only person qualified enough to be our finance minister). Sell off any assets and wind it down immeidately.

    The point of my post: taxing property will do what exactly to prices? It'll drop them further, right? Meaning it will scupper the so-called recovery in property prices. It's ridiculous.

    If there are half the working population not paying taxes, tax them! Even at a reduced scale, tax them.

    Target welfare fraudsters and full-time dolers...the ones on the benefits for years with no interest in returning to work. We are a welfare state making the workers suffer. Protect the disabled and the genuine cases, but there are millions being paid to the lazy and unwilling. Put that money to some good!

    Why are people siding with FF in this? I wish Labour could sweep in and get this economy started again.


    This is exactly what i thought i'd get - absolute tosh with no thinking whatsoever. You are saying that the anti-bank bail out march will force the government to resolve our current crisis by targeting welfare fraud and taxing everyone outside the tax net because this will be fairer on OAP's than a property tax?

    You don't really know what you are talking about, do you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭dromdrom


    Labour called for Anglo to be either wound down or turned into a toxic bank. FF decided a couple of billions worth of CPR was more effective. Now FF want to wind it down anyway.

    Taxes will be introduced. Prices will tumble further. The market will grow more stagnant. Rates will rise. More jobs will go. Prices tumble again, so banks raise rates again.

    Hello 1980s. Good luck everyone.

    Wow I'm scared , you know what I think this country needs, a left wing administration ready to bend to the public sector unions, hello 1980's is right, lets make sure that the Irish system is maintained and the true insiders are protected, lets make sure that the unconnected are forced to emigrate and the public sector/protected industry unions can continue to leach off this country and force us into economic collapse. You rail against the Banker/Developer Cartel who almost brought this county to its knees, all Gilmore, Horan, Begg and O'Coonnr et al represent is just another Cartel ready to divvy up the resources of this country for the chosen few. A cartel clouded in bullsh!t left wing rhetoric but still a cartel out for their piece of the pie the same as anyone else.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Labour called for Anglo to be either wound down or turned into a toxic bank. FF decided a couple of billions worth of CPR was more effective. Now FF want to wind it down anyway.

    Labour/Fine Gael/<insert opposition party> will always call for the opposite of what the government will implement, regardless if it is the right or wrong thing to do. They just choose the most populist idea.

    To think Labour would sort out our problems?? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    NAMA should be 100% transparent.

    What exactly do you want/expect to see with this 100% transparency?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    What exactly do you want/expect to see with this 100% transparency?

    To begin with we joe public should be allowed access to see who is employed by NAMA and how much they are being paid. Then NAMA should be brought under the auspices of the FoI Act.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,895 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Surely Joe Soap should be allowed to see all PS wages then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    To begin with we joe public should be allowed access to see who is employed by NAMA and how much they are being paid.

    So you read some names with figures beside them. Then what?
    Then NAMA should be brought under the auspices of the FoI Act.

    To what end?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Surely Joe Soap should be allowed to see all PS wages then?

    Wages, expenses, bonuses, pension entitlements. The lot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    Wages, expenses, bonuses, pension entitlements. The lot.

    Clock in cards, number of sick days taken, toilet breaks, cigarette breaks,etc. :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,555 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    OP can you please explain how the 20 Billion budget hole will be fixed? You know the hole that is there not because of banks bailout, NAMA etc. but because of over spending on PS, SW and other daily services from the government. The hole which even with the cost of interest etc. from the NAMA & Bank bailout removed is in the 19 Billion region a year in the reds...

    I'd like an answer to that question from every damn poster who comes on here wailing about the latest tax/fee/removal of benefits and how it is unfair to them/their friends/family. Oh and before you say "the rich" should pay for it keep in mind that the top 5% or so already pay in over 80% of the income tax in the country; so good luck on getting more there...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    So you read some names with figures beside them. Then what?


    To what end?

    It's in the name of transparency old chum, something that has always been lacking from the Irish Government decision making process in years gone by. If you need to be made aware of the reasons as to why FoI legislation is critical in the running of a healthy democracy then maybe you've spent too long in the bunker?.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    It's in the name of transparency old chum, something that has always been lacking from the Irish Government decision making process in years gone by. If you need to be made aware of the reasons as to why FoI legislation is critical in the running of a healthy democracy then maybe you've spent too long in the bunker?.

    :rolleyes: The majority of people who come on to forums or text in to radio stations all "saw this coming" yet still want to know how we got into this mess.

    So again, what would you (joe soap) do with the information once you have it?


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