Have the government accidentally banned cigarettes?

bladespin

Heard today, most, if not all cigarettes contain GBL (aka 4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone’ - it's some sort of flavouring), this is on the government's new list of banned substances. Does this make all cigarettes illegal now? :eek:

GBL is on the list of banned headshop substances Mary Harney banned during the week.

Scofflaw

Goodness me - could bad law really have been made in a hurry in response to a media frenzy?

amused,
Scofflaw

freelancerTax

ROFL!

MrVestek

I'd love if this were true purely just to show the general public what kind of consequences teh rushed 'Joe Duffy' style legislation can have on the country.

Bottle_of_Smoke

is it naturally occuring or added to cigarettes? Insignificant amounts occur naturally in beer/wine also.

Maybe that will make a difference I'm no lawyer. Maybe stock up on booze n fags just in case

Demonon

Are you sure? I can't find it on the list:

The following substances and products:

Synthetic Cannabinoids:
[2,3–Dihydro–5–methyl–3–(4–morpholinylmethyl)pyrrolo[1,2,3–de]–1,4–benzoxazin–6–yl]–1–naphthalenylmethanone
3–Dimethylheptyl–11–hydroxyhexahydrocannabinol
9-(Hydroxymethyl)–6,6–dimethyl–3–(2–methyloctan–2–yl)–6a,7,10,10a–tetrahydrobenzo[c]chromen–1–ol
[9–Hydroxy–6–methyl–3–[5–phenylpentan–2–yl]oxy–5,6,6a,7,8,9,10,10a-octahydrophenanthridin–1–yl]acetate
Any substance structurally derived from 3–(1–naphthoyl)indole or 1H–indol–3–yl–(1–naphthyl)methane by substitution at the nitrogen atom of the indole ring by alkyl, alkenyl, cycloalkylmethyl, cycloalkylethyl or 2–(4–morpholinyl)ethyl, whether or not further substituted in the indole ring to any extent and whether or not substituted in the naphthyl ring to any extent.
Any substance structurally derived from 3–(1–naphthoyl)pyrrole by substitution at the nitrogen atom of the pyrrole ring by alkyl, alkenyl, cycloalkylmethyl, cycloalkylethyl or 2–(4–morpholinyl)ethyl, whether or not further substituted in the pyrrole ring to any extent and whether or not substituted in the naphthyl ring to any extent.
Any substance structurally derived from 1–(1–naphthylmethyl)indene by substitution at the 3–position of the indene ring by alkyl, alkenyl, cycloalkylmethyl, cycloalkylethyl or 2–(4–morpholinyl)ethyl, whether or not further substituted in the indene ring to any extent and whether or not substituted in the naphthyl ring to any extent.
Any substance structurally derived from 3–phenylacetylindole by substitution at the nitrogen atom of the indole ring with alkyl, alkenyl, cycloalkylmethyl, cycloalkylethyl or 2–(4–morpholinyl)ethyl, whether or not further substituted in the indole ring to any extent and whether or not substituted in the phenyl ring to any extent.
Any substance structurally derived from 2–(3–hydroxycyclohexyl)phenol by substitution at the 5–position of the phenolic ring by alkyl, alkenyl, cycloalkylmethyl, cycloalkylethyl or 2–(4–morpholinyl)ethyl, whether or not further substituted in the cyclohexyl ring to any extent.
BZP Derivatives:

1-Benzylpiperazine or any substance structurally derived from 1–benzylpiperazine or 1–phenylpiperazine by modification in any of the following ways -
(i) by substitution at the second nitrogen atom of the piperazine ring with alkyl, benzyl, haloalkyl or phenyl groups;
(ii) by substitution in the aromatic ring to any extent with alkyl, alkoxy, alkylenedioxy, halide or haloalkyl groups.
Mephedrone & related Cathinones:

1-(1,3-Benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-(1-pyrrolidinyl)-pentanone
1-(2-Fluorophenyl)-2-methylaminopropan-1-one
1-(3-Fluorophenyl)-2-methylaminopropan-1-one
1-(4-Fluorophenyl)-2-methylaminopropan-1-one
Methcathinone
1-(4-Methoxyphenyl)-2-(methylamino)propan-1-one
2-Methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butan-1-one
2-Methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propan-1-one
1-(4-Methylphenyl)-2-methylaminopropan-1-one
GBL & 1,4 BD:

Butan-1,4-diol
Dihydrofuran-2(3H)-one (otherwise known as gamma-Butyrolactone)
This legislation also controls any stereoisomeric form of these substances, esters and ethers (where appropriate), salts, and preparations or products containing any proportion of these substances.

Are you mistaking it for Butan-1,4-diol ?

Demonon

By the way GBL is gamma-butyrolactone not 4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone

Scofflaw

Demonon wrote: »

Are you sure? I can't find it on the list:

Are you mistaking it for Butan-1,4-diol ?

This gets even better, because I see there are several discussions on this topic in various forums already. It's a neck and neck race now - is it true (and symptomatic of rushed legislation following media frenzies) or false (and symptomatic of the Internet love of urban myth following media frenzies)?

amused,
Scofflaw

Tinkicker

MrVestek

Tinkicker wrote: »

Nicotine? Alchohol? :-)

murrayp4

Please let this one be true.

Tinkicker

Both!:eek:

Overheal

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

is it naturally occuring or added to cigarettes? Insignificant amounts occur naturally in beer/wine also.

Maybe that will make a difference I'm no lawyer. Maybe stock up on booze n fags just in case

well considering both alcohol and nicotine are psychoactive substances either way, does it matter?

silverharp

can I start ringing up the local garda stations and report that a dodgy Dutch based shop (SPAR) is selling these banned substances?

CptSternn

Links listing 4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone as an ingredient in all cigarettes:

http://www.tricountycessation.org/tobaccofacts/Cigarette-Ingredients.html

http://www.stop-smoking-for-good.net/cigarette-ingredients.html

http://smoking-quit.info/health-risks/cigarettes-ingredients/the-list-of-additives-in-cigarettes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes

Links that specify that 4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone is another name for GBL:

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?D7=0&N5=Product%20No.|BRAND_KEY&N4=W329118|Aldrich&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC

http://www.projectghb.org/what_is_ghb.htm

http://www.projectghb.org/analogs.htm

http://www.chemindustry.com/chemicals/0223726.html

http://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/agro/GAMMA-BUTYROLACTONE.htm

Google:

‘4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone cigarette’

It is found in all cigarettes

Now Google:

‘4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone’

You can find many more links than what I have posted confirming this.

Scofflaw

CptSternn wrote: »

Links listing 4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone as an ingredient in all cigarettes:

http://www.tricountycessation.org/tobaccofacts/Cigarette-Ingredients.html

http://www.stop-smoking-for-good.net/cigarette-ingredients.html

http://smoking-quit.info/health-risks/cigarettes-ingredients/the-list-of-additives-in-cigarettes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes

Links that specify that 4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone is another name for GBL:

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?D7=0&N5=Product%20No.|BRAND_KEY&N4=W329118|Aldrich&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC

http://www.projectghb.org/what_is_ghb.htm

http://www.projectghb.org/analogs.htm

http://www.chemindustry.com/chemicals/0223726.html

http://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/agro/GAMMA-BUTYROLACTONE.htm

Google:

‘4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone cigarette’

It is found in all cigarettes

Now Google:

‘4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone’

You can find many more links than what I have posted confirming this.

However, that's not the 'missing ingredient', so to speak - the missing bit so far is the legislation banning it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bucklesman

As much as I wish this were true...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Butyrolactone


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

It would appear they are different. Unless a chemist wants to correct me...

bladespin

Demonon wrote: »

Are you sure? I can't find it on the list:



Are you mistaking it for Butan-1,4-diol ?

No, it was on the list she read out in the Dail.

Zynks

If this is true, they will need Bertie back to handle the flowered-up U-turn

Funkfield

Please let this be true...............

Elevator

is this true? if it is I shall be straight down to my local Garda station to report every single shop I can think of in Galway for breaking this new law.

please say it's true cos I so wanna he a thorn in mary harneys side, would have to be a very large thorn granted

Tinkicker

THEY WILL BE AFTER THE WORKING MANS PINT NEXT!

Sulmac

If this is true, it's both hilarious and unsurprising.

bladespin

Tinkicker wrote: »

THEY WILL BE AFTER THE WORKING MANS PINT NEXT!

There's GBL in some beers and wines too :eek:

TBH I don't know, hence the question, I'be very suprised if researchers hadn't cross referenced the list but I did some basic googling and it seems to be true, just wondering if anyone else could confirm or deny it.

BTW According to Wiki (yes, I know how reliable it is) GBL has several names.

delop

I thought the New law was only for substances labeled 'Not For Human Consumption'

But I could be wrong, this whole 'legal' area had my head spinning

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Goodness me - could bad law really have been made in a hurry in response to a media frenzy?

Well, they certainly have a track record of making bad laws when they're in a panic!

Here's a question - if these ARE temporarily "banned", surely we can buy them for a fair price, without the ridiculous amount of tax ?

I mean, it must be against some precedent for them to take tax income from the purchase of illegal substances ?

CptSternn

Bucklesman wrote: »

As much as I wish this were true...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Butyrolactone


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

It would appear they are different. Unless a chemist wants to correct me...

Per my previous links -

http://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/agro/GAMMA-BUTYROLACTONE.htm

gamma-BUTYROLACTONE

SYNONYMS 4-Hydroxybutyric Acid Lactone; 4-Butanolide;
1,4-Butanolide; Butyric Acid Lactone; Butyrolactone; 4-Butyrolactone; Tetrahydro-2-Furanone Dihydro-2(3H)-Furanone; Hydroxybutanoic Acid Lactone; butyrylactone; butyrl lactone; dihydro-2(3H)-furanone; 4-deoxytetronic acid; 4-hydroxybutyric acid, gamma-lactone; gamma-hydroxybutyric acid cyclic ester; gamma-hydroxybutyric acid lactone; tetrahydro-2-furanone; 1,4-Lactone; sigma-Butyrolactone;

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?D7=0&N5=Product%20No.|BRAND_KEY&N4=W329118|Aldrich&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC

4-Hydroxybutanoic acid lactone

Synonym: γ-Butyrolactone, γ-Hydroxybutyric acid lactone, 4-Hydroxybutyric acid lactone, GBL

CptSternn

Bucklesman wrote: »

As much as I wish this were true...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Butyrolactone


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

It would appear they are different. Unless a chemist wants to correct me...

Also, gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid is GHB, which is been illegal in Ireland since 1993. GBL is a precursor to GHB - GBL is actuall turned into GHB in the body when it is broken down by the liver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_Drugs_Act_%28Ireland%29

http://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/12086/

Victor

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Here's a question - if these ARE temporarily "banned", surely we can buy them for a fair price, without the ridiculous amount of tax ? I mean, it must be against some precedent for them to take tax income from the purchase of illegal substances ?

No, in that case they would just seize the entire amount.

Liam Byrne

Tinkicker wrote: »

THEY WILL BE AFTER THE WORKING MANS PINT NEXT!

Not a hope....too many TDs are publicans.....

Dr. Baltar

If this happens I think I will officially move country.
I'm fed up of this Nanny State.

Thoie

I think a better idea would be for all smokers to turn up at garda stations at 1pm tomorrow to hand ourselves in.

Scofflaw

CptSternn wrote: »

Also, gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid is GHB, which is been illegal in Ireland since 1993. GBL is a precursor to GHB - GBL is actuall turned into GHB in the body when it is broken down by the liver.

So, just to clarify that - the race to be wrong has been won by the Internet? These are two different but similarly named (from a lay perspective) chemicals, one of which is banned, the other of which is common in cigarettes etc?

cordially,
Scofflaw

moonpurple

the dangerous stuff in head shops is harder to buy by the average 14 year old...not gone, harder to buy, excellent development, rock on joe duffy...

bladespin

moonpurple wrote: »

the dangerous stuff in head shops is harder to buy by the average 14 year old...not gone, harder to buy, excellent development, rock on joe duffy...

And that has what got to do with cigarettes?

Juist wondering like, typical Scruffy Joe fan, don't let the facts interfers with hoisting your opinion on everyone.

Biggins

Tinkicker wrote: »

O yea, lets rush in a stupid quick law on the back of ove-inflated hype - and totally ignore a bigger picture and HUGE bigger problem about alcohol which by the way 40% of Fianna Fail TD's own bars!

Very convenient!!!

---

A few stat's on alcohol alone in regards to Ireland:

• A report by the Office of Tobacco Control revealed that our 16 to 17‑year‑olds spend an average of €20·09+ per week on alcohol. This amounts to an illegal alcohol market of €145m in this country
• Between 61,000 and 104,000 children aged under 15 in Ireland are estimated to be living with parents who misuse alcohol
• Alcohol‑related disorders were the third most common reason for admission to Irish psychiatric hospitals between 1996 and 2005
• Alcohol use is often a factor in suicidal behaviour. In 2006/2007 alcohol was a factor in 41% of all cases of deliberate self-harm
• Alcohol was found to be a factor in almost half of all cases of sexual assaults on adults according to a major survey of sexual assault and violence in Ireland. In such cases, where only one party had been drinking, the perpetrator of the sexual assault was the one drinking in the majority of cases (84% of female and 70% of male sexual assault cases)
• More than one in four of those attending accident and emergency departments have alcohol‑related injuries, almost half of which occurred to people aged under 30 years
• Alcohol is a factor in one in four traumatic brain injuries Hospital discharges for alcohol-related liver disease increased by 147% between 1995 and 2004
• Alcohol-related offences increased by 30% between 2003 and 2007, from 50,948 to 66,406
• Almost half of the perpetrators of homicide were intoxicated when the crime was committed
• Alcohol was identified as a potential trigger for abuse in one third of domestic abuse cases. Alcohol is considered a contributory factor and stressor in domestic violence
  

---

A study done in Denmark, showed that in a country with 5.5 million inhabitants, 1900000 had been harassed/annoyed/damaged by drunk people in the last year.

Yearly deaths: 2 500

People who have been harassed/annoyed/damaged by drunk people, last year:
Harassed in public 860 000
Harassed in private 430000
Physically hurt 43 000
Damage of clothes etc. 86000
Scolded out 903 000
Afraid of drunk person in public place 516000
Kept awake 989000
At least three of the seven problems 516000
At least one of the seven problems Ca. 1900000


A survey carried out in the US showed 24 % of American women (i.e. approx 30 million) had experienced family or marital problems caused by other people’s drinking during their life-time.

Yearly deaths (estimate): 100000

Been a passenger with a drunk driver 7260000
Pushed, hit or assaulted 5280 000
Family of marriage problems 7480 000
Property vandalized 3960000
Motor vehicle accident 660 000
Financial trouble 2200000
At least one of the six problems 20020000


Survey from Canada

Yearly deaths: 6700
People who have been harassed/annoyed/damaged by drunk people, last year:

Insulted/humiliated 5040000
Disturbed 6240000
Family problems 1920000
Victim of assault 1680000
Accident 240000
Financial problems 480000
At least one of the six problems 10800000

All these studies are a proof that harm inflicted on others is not merely a side problem, but is by far the most widespread problem related to alcohol use. These studies also show that harm to others is by no means limited to violence, traffic accidents and children, but is spread over a much broader spectrum.

---

Sources: Barry S, Kearney A, Lawlor E, McNamee E and Barry J (2006) The Coombe Women’s Hospital study of alcohol, smoking and illicit drug use, 1988–2005. Dublin: Coombe Women’s Hospital; Bedford D (2008) Drink Driving in Ireland. Presentation made at conference organised by the Road Safety Authority; Eurocare/COFACE (1998) Alcohol Problems in the Family: A Report to the European Union. England: Eurocare; Hope A (2008) Alcohol Related Harm In Ireland: Health Services Executive – Alcohol Implementation Group; Hope A (2007) Alcohol Consumption in Ireland 1986-2006. Health Services Executive – Alcohol Implementation Group; Mongan et al (2007) Health Related Consequences of Problem Alcohol Use. Overview 6. Dublin: Health Research Board; National Suicide Research Foundation (2008) National Registry of Deliberate Self-harm Ireland, Annual Report 2006-2007, alcoholireland.ie, eurocare.org

Dannyboy83

Scofflaw wrote: »

So, just to clarify that - the race to be wrong has been won by the Internet? These are two different but similarly named (from a lay perspective) chemicals, one of which is banned, the other of which is common in cigarettes etc?

cordially,
Scofflaw

It is (technically in this case) the same chemical in a different state, which when metabolised, is converted into the active metabolite.

So GBL is a precursor to GHB.
This means it's converted to (or participates in the conversion to) an active form within the body.

GBL is ingested and subsequently converted to GHB is not much different to T4 being ingested and converted to the active Thyroid hormone T3, within the body.

The key part is the quantity of a precursor required to make a non-negligible amount of the active form. I'm unaware of the quantity with regard to GBL/GHB and it's generally dependent on the individual response, but from briefly looking at the GBL article on wiki, they advise that it's active half life is much shorter than GHB, but onset is much more rapid as GBL is more potent, meaning effects are more pronounced, which would seem to suggest it is even more dangerous if ingested by an individual who has no clue about the chemical.
So yes, GBL is more dangerous than the finished product, GHB, in the hands of the uneducated and especially when combined with alcohol.

GHB is a notorious drug that has been suspected of inducing schizophrenia/bi-polar type illnesses, and has been a long time suspect in the death or near-death of many bodybuilders (noted for significant rises in Growth Hormone due to very deep sleep), particularly during the 90s, in especially when used in conjunction with alcohol.
I don't have any specific knowledge with regard to the compound as recreational drugs are not an area of interest.

There was a recent EU directive stipulating reform of law with regard to food products:http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0046:EN:HTML
I imagine there must be something similar lined up within the EU with regard to these compound.

As an aside, I'm not sure if GBL is contained in Chinese/Russian cigarettes - I don't know anyone who smokes Irish cigarettes these days anyway:rolleyes::P

Dannyboy83

Oh and btw, according to wiki;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Butyrolactone#Occurrence

GBL has been found in extracts from samples of unadulterated wines. This finding indicates that GBL is a naturally occurring component in some wines and may be present in similar products. The concentration detected was approximately 5 μg/mL and was easily observed using a simple extraction technique followed by GC/MS analysis.

Creatine is a naturally occuring substance within the human body, but France found a way around it through a technicality iirc;
Creatine is not illegal but artificial supplementation of creatine through powder and not food is.
(don't quote me on that, going from a rusty memory)

Btw, Red Bull is also illegal in France.:rolleyes:

Pace2008

Biggins wrote: »

...and care to state where that 2 mill' figure came from and back it up - and what % of that figure is actually about the drugs now banned???

That poster is actually referring to alcohol. People are planning to stick it up on drink advertisements and outside pubs/off licences in an attempt to raise the nation's consciousness and highlight the hypocrisy in the system.

Biggins

Pace2008 wrote: »

That poster is actually referring to alcohol. People are planning to stick it up on drink advertisements and outside pubs/off licences in an attempt to raise the nation's consciousness and highlight the hypocrisy in the system.

Cheers. Post edited to take that into account.

As a good poster commented in another politics subject section here, we are dealing with politics lead by the "Joe Duffy for politics-by-media" brigade.

Tinkicker

HA HA !THAT WAS THE BEST POST OF FACTS AND STATS!THANK YOU MR BIGGINS, NO SIR I SALUTE U!

Tinkicker

YOU MEAN THIS TYPE!

Elevator

so is this true or not? I'm waiting for a call back from the local drug squad officers and I plan on making a complaint that there are still some establishments selling psychoactive products containing banned substances.

I went to make a complaint in the Garda station yesterday only to be fibbed off that the tobacco companies had been given the all clear concerning the banned substances.

has mary covered her rather big ass or can I succeed in having cigarettes taken out of every shop in Galway?

Victor

Biggins wrote: »

O yea, lets rush in a stupid quick law on the back of ove-inflated hype - and totally ignore a bigger picture and HUGE bigger problem about alcohol which by the way 40% of Fianna Fail TD's own bars!

While TDs have an unhealthy relationship with the alcohol industry, isn't that figure overstated?

BeardyFunzo

I'm a chemist!

GBL is also known as:
4-Hydroxybutanoic acid lactone

and


γ-Butyrolactone (aka Gamma-Butyrolactone)



The two names correspond to the same CAS number. Every chemical has a CAS number, no two chemicals have the same CAS number.

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/Lookup.do?N5=All&N3=mode+matchpartialmax&N4=%0996-48-0&D7=0&D10=%0996-48-0&N1=S_ID&ST=RS&N25=0&F=PR

Sigma aldrich is the main chemical supplier to my workplace.

Here's the compound in all is simple glory!

Biggins

Victor wrote: »

While TDs have an unhealthy relationship with the alcohol industry, isn't that figure overstated?

Supposedly not: http://www.soldiersofdestiny.org/tddrinklobbyscandal.htm
(Stated more than once)

And this old quote within it although names have now changed in the job roles later:

The Fianna Fail Minister in charge of alcohol policy, Junior Health Minister Sean Power is a publican.

Laois-Offaly TD John Moloney, the chairman of a group within the parliamentary party drawing up a submission for Michael McDowell on the licensing laws, owns a pub.
One of the sternest critics of the proposal was Carlow-Kilkenny TD, John McGuinness, who owns the property where his brother runs a pub. Eddie Bohan, a senator since 1987, is a former President of the VFI and a former chairman of the Dublin Licensed Vintners.

Vintners' access to the Government throws doubt on its ability to deal comprehensively with alcohol abuse.

Advantageous or what!

BeardyFunzo

some further reading, from a US based news source:

http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=12653

McGhee found that many cigarettes contain something called 4-hydroxybutanoic acid lactone, according to published ingredients lists from two of the biggest tobacco companies, RJ Reynolds and Brown and Williamson. And from his previous research on club drugs, McGhee knew the chemical is actually just a different name for GBL, a substance found on both the California and federal controlled substances “Schedule One” lists.

Pace2008

Does this mean newsagents stocking certain brands can be reported for selling controlled substances?

Elevator

Pace2008 wrote: »

Does this mean newsagents stocking certain brands can be reported for selling controlled substances?

well I for one fully intend on making a complaint to local drug squad officers that I have information on the sale of banned psychoactive substances in Galway shops tomorrow, will post up the response after.

Elevator

right, armed with my info on gbl I had a little chat with a member of the drug squad who had no interest in going along to the shops and confiscating their supplies of cigarettes.

he did say the department I should be getting onto is the dept of health.

amazing too that if I was selling a banned substance they'd be around at my door in a heartbeat, warrant n all and make a big fuss but when a member of the public rings up about this they just ignore it.

MrVestek

They receive tax money from cigarettes. I can't imagine they'd be willing to co-operate or even change any of the legislation.

Welcome to Ireland.